Author Topic: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters  (Read 4587 times)

Offline zenten

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7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« on: August 23, 2011, 09:34:39 PM »
So, the PCs in my game are getting close to learning stuff about Old Ones and Outsiders.  The question is, what would happen if they did, both in terms of the Lawbreaker power and the wardens.

I know what would happen with the focused practioner.  It's the others that I'm less sure of.

One is a changeling daughter of a high ranking sidhe of the Winter Court.

One is a Knight of the Cross.

One is an RCMP constable (working with a secret taskforce that deals with supernatural crimes), pure mortal template.

One is an emessary of power of a freeholding lord.

One is an ex-biker, also pure mortal template (although who knows how long now that he has a Denarian coin).

The last is a Daoist with a bunch of faith powers.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2011, 09:44:10 PM »
Huh, a double-posted thread. You don't see that often.

Like all questions related to the Laws, this one has no right answer.

If I was GMing, I wouldn't give out the power unless players actively looked for info on the Outside. The law is about "seeking" if I recall correctly.

And besides, it just seems nasty to take away people's refresh.

But if they actually do actively look for such info, I'd call it a self-compel and give them the power.

Maybe extend the bonus to non-spellcasting rolls for the benefit of the mortals. It wouldn't break anything.

PS: Why do we talk about the Laws so much here, anyway? I think that they're the number one topic of discussion here.

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2011, 09:52:20 PM »
Huh, a double-posted thread. You don't see that often.

Yeah, what say we declare this one the official one then.  I'll repost my reply here.

Depends on if what they learn is any more expansive than that they exist or what's in Lovecraft novels.  If they start doing any serious research on the subject and the Council gets wind of it, expect everyone who doesn't have someone powerful backing them up to gain "The Late" as an aspect ASAFP.  If it's picked up through experience, they'll probably be spared but watched.  Closely.

As to the Lawbreaker power, I'm with Sanctaphrax.
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Offline bobjob

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2011, 09:55:10 PM »
Quote
PS: Why do we talk about the Laws so much here, anyway? I think that they're the number one topic of discussion here.

Because I have never heard of a single group of gamers that don't skirt law-breaking territory in any game. They want to know what is possible (good and bad) without hearing "You can do that, but it's a no-no".
The entire Red Court was taken down by the new Winter Knight? From the lowliest pawn all the way up to the King? *puts on sunglasses* Knight to G7. Check mate.

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Offline sinker

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2011, 10:13:49 PM »
My inclination is to go with Sanctaphrax on that one. That seeking is an important part of the law, both from a universal stand point and a white council standpoint.

I'm guessing it would have other consequences though. It'd definitely put them on the Gatekeeper's radar, and the Venatori (or whatever the secret anti-outsider organization that Thomas is part of is called) would take an interest in them too.

Offline SunlessNick

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2011, 02:34:46 AM »
In terms of the Wardens, I think the Accords would prevent them from trying to exercise jurisdiction over anyone but the spellcaster - though they might shop the rest to their respective authorities (I suspect a lot of factions would rather not have people messsing with the Gates).  That would probably change if it looked the PC's were trying to use any Outsider knowledge, which would probably result in the Wardens whacking them on general "keep the world safe" principles.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2011, 06:22:54 AM »
Breaking the accords is bad - if you get caught doing it.  Yes, the Winter Court Changeling might be a problem - but if she hasn't picked yet then maybe they'll treat her as a human or hint that she choose human right before they took her down (so she could have the ability to open the outer gates).  The Freeholder's envoy is more of a problem....

But here's the choice that will be facing anyone catching your group breaking the 7th law:
A) we accept the risk posed by a group who are threatening the very existence of the world, or
B) we piss off "people" and have to pay a fine (werguild) because we killed them all to protect reality.

Now what choice do you think that the Wardens will make? Or the Senior Council? I'm betting on it being "we save existence now and worry about the fallout later".

Richard

Offline Tsunami

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2011, 07:07:06 AM »
So, the PCs in my game are getting close to learning stuff about Old Ones and Outsiders.  The question is, what would happen if they did, both in terms of the Lawbreaker power and the wardens.

I know what would happen with the focused practioner.  It's the others that I'm less sure of.

One is a changeling daughter of a high ranking sidhe of the Winter Court.

One is a Knight of the Cross.

One is an RCMP constable (working with a secret taskforce that deals with supernatural crimes), pure mortal template.

One is an emessary of power of a freeholding lord.

One is an ex-biker, also pure mortal template (although who knows how long now that he has a Denarian coin).

The last is a Daoist with a bunch of faith powers.

Concerning the Wardens there really is one simple answer to all this.

Do you, as the GM, want them to get into trouble with the wardens ?

If yes, then it's a violation of the "do not research" part of the Law.
Or maybe simply a case of "Yeah sure... you didn't mean to learn all that, and you really don't want to use it... right... now hold still while we chop your heads off."

Some of your PCs would be protected from the wardens by the accords (Changeling, Emissary).
With others the fact that they are what they are would make the wardens hesitate (Knight of the Cross).
The rest is fair game, technically.

As for the Lawbreaker. I would really just limit that to the Spellcaster.

Offline toturi

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2011, 09:01:01 AM »
For the Knight of the Cross -

How did the Knight get involved? Did he get a memo from the Boss? If he was "on the clock", then you could decide even though the Wardens want to lay down the law, there could be "fortunate coincidences" for the Knight. The Wardens got arrested for concealed carry or the Way to whereever the Knight lives mysteriously leads to the wrong place (aka the Wardens get a divine hint to 'drop the case') even if the Wardens are highly experienced and the GM can run it as a news item - "Grey cloaked peeping toms spotted at local swimming pool!"

Could be even be an embarrassing Aspect if one of the Warden ends up being arrested by the constable - "I caught the perv and I shot him resisting arrest when he drew that sword."
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2011, 01:07:24 PM »
Wait, I must have glossed over the Knight bit.  That is absolutely begging for a compel on his High Concept;  likely one every time it's discussed.  If he's in any way willing to risk all of creation over acquiring power and continue down this path, he needs to lose Righteousness at the very least and likely most/all of the rest of his template abilities and his IoP.  Anything else would effectively be saying TWG in your campaign is fine with one of his servants trashing the universe.
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Offline toturi

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 02:15:41 PM »
Wait, I must have glossed over the Knight bit.  That is absolutely begging for a compel on his High Concept;  likely one every time it's discussed.  If he's in any way willing to risk all of creation over acquiring power and continue down this path, he needs to lose Righteousness at the very least and likely most/all of the rest of his template abilities and his IoP.  Anything else would effectively be saying TWG in your campaign is fine with one of his servants trashing the universe.
If the Knight is seeking power from the Outsiders, there should be a Compel.

But then he could gaining knowledge of the Outsiders because of the Compel to act against the Outsiders. Anything else would effectively be saying TWG in the campaign is fine with one of his servants standing by while someone else trashes the universe.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline DFJunkie

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 03:03:13 PM »
It is also possible to compel the Knight to break off his research.  Learning everything you can about your enemy is more of a Wizard thing, especially when that knowledge is itself corrupting.  Handing over a fate point and saying "you need to rely on your faith" would be perfectly reasonable, especially since he has everything he needs to bypass their catch right there at his hip.

Alternately, if they need the Outside knowledge for some other reason you could compel him to do it, as Toturi says.  Or do both and see what the player comes up with.
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Offline zenten

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 05:20:11 PM »
Well, the Knight wasn't at the last session where they aquired the book.  I'm not sure what response she'll give, but it probably won't be the "let's get as far away from this as we can and just worry about covering things up so the Wardens don't kill us" tactic that the rest of the PCs are leaning towards.  I see her caring about things like "where did this woman get the evil book, and who else has it?" (As in I think I'll be compelling her to that) Which requires digging, and that digging could draw the attention of the Wardens.

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 06:17:32 PM »
Do you, as the GM, want them to get into trouble with the wardens ?
...
Some of your PCs would be protected from the wardens by the accords (Changeling, Emissary).
With others the fact that they are what they are would make the wardens hesitate (Knight of the Cross).
...
As for the Lawbreaker. I would really just limit that to the Spellcaster.

Of course whatever the table wants is the way the game should go, but in the setting as written I don't know it if the Accords would stop the Wardens.

For starters, are changelings covered by the Accords? Summer Knight left me with the impression that they were meat for anyone who wanted them.

I can see the Wardens giving warnings to those covered by the Accord - and maybe someone contacting their (the PC's) bosses saying "They're messing with this stuff, which means you are messing with this stuff? Mr. Freehold Lord, why are you trying to open the Outer Gates?".

But if the warning isn't listened to then I can see the Wardens looking at the legal arguments of "We warned them not to do it.  It takes mortal magic to open the Outer Gates and we handle all mortal magic.  We handled the situation - now how big of a fine (werguild) do we pay?".   I'm basing that stance off of
(click to show/hide)

Why would the Wardens react that way? Well, picture this:

SCENE: The Oval Office.
A group of national security advisers bust in, sending everyone who doesn't have Super Secret Squirrel Clearance out.  One of them says
"Mr. President, the leader of North Korea has taken offense at a skit at Comic-Con and vowed to punish San Diego.  We are 90% sure that North Koreans have seized control of a Chinese flagged freighter and have loaded a 'One Shot For Glorious Leader' style missile on it - with a nuclear warhead.  The OSFGL missile has a range of 500 miles.  It is considered very inaccurate, but while it's likely to miss San Diego if launched it will impact somewhere on the West Coast.
"Due to sun spot activity playing havoc with com satellites we are unable to make contact with the upper leadership in China.  We estimate it will take another 38 minutes, minimum, to make contact with them while the ship is" (pauses to look at watch) "10 minutes and 38 seconds from where it can launch.
"We have no ships in range, but we have aircraft that can neutralize it with an air to sea missile.  However, we are only 90% sure that North Koreans have taken over the ship and even if they have the crew, all Chinese Nationals, might still be aboard.
"What are your orders Sir?"

Taking out another nation's ship in international waters - when it hasn't attacked you - is breaking all sorts of international laws (and can be considered an act of war).  If the ship is sunk then the Chinese will be pissed - especially if there wasn't any missile on board.  That said, I can't see anyone making the decision not to sink it and figuring out how to make nice with Chinese later.

While the above would make a nice movie plot, it pales to the reshaping of the world caused by the opening of the outer gates.  One nuke is nothing compared to the probable destruction of the human race.  How can the White Council hesitate to remove those who threaten the world's very existence?

What I'm basically saying is when it comes to the Outer Gates the White Council reacts more strongly than the US would over a possible nuke hitting US soil, and that the White Council thinks that anything it does would be justified.  They can worry about the repercussions later - if there is a later (and if the Outer Gates open there might not be one).

As for the Knight of the Cross type - the Wardens might try to talk to him (explaining more than warning) but if he goes ahead... Well he wouldn't be the first to fall from that service.  Not that I'm saying the PC has fallen or is falling - just that that's how it could look. 


And yes, I agree that the Lawbreaker stunt makes no sense for non-spell casters.

Richard

Offline easl

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Re: 7th law violations and non-spellcasters
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 08:58:29 PM »
I agree with Tsunami (I.e., it depends on whether you and they want to be in trouble for it).  But if I were game world king, I would go pretty lax on non-spellcasters.  The vampire nations are part of the accords, and they mind control all the time.  So either they are constantly breaking the rules and nobody says anything about it, or they aren't breaking the rules.

Perhaps it's useful to add "...using magic" to the end of all those rules.  The laws say it's illegal to kill...using magic.  It's illegal to shapechange someone...using magic.  It's illegal to time travel...using magic.  And, it's illegal to try and gain knowledge of, or contact, old ones...using magic.  Where "magic" here refers narrowly to spellcasting, not every supernatural ability in the book (figuratively and literally).