Author Topic: Monsters and Free Will  (Read 5317 times)

Offline Drulinda

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Monsters and Free Will
« on: August 17, 2011, 01:31:20 AM »
At bitten by books Q&A jims answer to whether mortals can grant Free Will to supernaturals seeing as lash apparently gained this from harry was that this is a spectatularly complicated question and lash didnt gain Free Will like mortals but became a separate, self motivated being whose personality was greatly influnced by harrys had me wondering: Is there anything i missed in the RPGs that show/suggest a mortal can grant some variant of Free Will to a Monster under certain circumstances?

Offline Haru

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2011, 01:38:59 AM »
Well, you can compel them and give them a fate point which is the resource of free will in the game. But actual free will, I don't think that's possible, because the whole free will vs. nature is one of the cornerstones of the world.

I think taking Jim's statement into the game, Lash had become an entity that had some traits from Harry and some traits from her former self. Maybe over time Harry won enough social conflicts with her that she took quite a few extreme consequences, changing her aspects and therefore her nature in the process. She would then be compelled on that new nature, which in comparison to her original self might seem like free will, but isn't.
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Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2011, 02:02:06 AM »
Another way of looking at is the explanation the spirit is what grows and the soul is what it grows in; bodies are just something you inhabit.  Any being missing either is fundamentally incapable of free will and growth from its exercise.  Don't ask me to explain the Fallen.  My answer to ineffable things is "eff `em".
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2011, 02:50:57 AM »
Remember the dichotomy is Free Will vs Nature.  So the question becomes, "can you convince something (or someone) to choose to act against its nature?"

As pointed out with Lash, it's possible.  However it wasn't at all easy.  As I remember that took years of convincing across a couple of books.  (Not entirely certain what the timeline was...but it wasn't short.)

Edit:  For that matter it takes a human several years to learn to delay immediate gratification.  Probably age 6 to 8 or so...
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 02:52:44 AM by UmbraLux »
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Offline The Mighty Buzzard

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2011, 03:39:15 AM »
Edit:  For that matter it takes a human several years to learn to delay immediate gratification.  Probably age 6 to 8 or so...

If ever...
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Offline toturi

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2011, 04:17:33 AM »
Mechanically I think it is quite simple to simulate free will. Storywise, it is just a matter of convincing the table that it is possible.

Consider: what if the nature of the monster is being free-willed?
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Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2011, 06:20:22 AM »
Remember the dichotomy is Free Will vs Nature.  So the question becomes, "can you convince something (or someone) to choose to act against its nature?"

I think of that question in a different way:
"Can you change something's (or someone's) nature?"

Which is how I see Lash evolving.  Her nature was changed from "fragment of a Fallen One" to "I'm my own me - maybe...".   Maybe it was from multiple social takeouts that changed her high concept or maybe it was something else, but she appears to have changed.

And once she changed from "corrupt my host" to "protect my host" her new nature didn't allow any more freewill than her old one allowed.

Speaking of that... Spoilers for Ghost Story:
(click to show/hide)

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Offline Masurao

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2011, 07:08:58 AM »
I think of that question in a different way:
"Can you change something's (or someone's) nature?"

"What can change the nature of a man?"

*sigh*
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Offline Lanir

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2011, 08:00:46 AM »
What is possibly a more interesting and useful way to look at this for NPC's in general would be "How much influence does this mortal PC have with this supernatural NPC?" I think there are a number of examples in the novels where a normal mortal got a supernatural to adjust their thinking a little in response

You are totally free to adjust how free will works in your game. I don't think there's any One True Way to handle the topic. But the default assumption of the world setting is going to be that supernaturals don't gain free will. To alter that you'd have to either insert it as a basic premise or add it as a consequence of a storyline (and since it's a central-ish theme it would probably need to be a pretty epic storyline).

Offline Masurao

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2011, 09:11:51 AM »
I guess you could give "monsters" free will, which would be awesome story-wise, but... Where do you get the free will? I'd say you'd need a soul to insert in the baddy's spirit/essence, which leads to necromancy... But still, if a NPC necromancer could pop a soul into something like Mab, imagine the ensuing chaos :D

Offline Lanir

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2011, 01:36:45 PM »
I don't think you need a particular vehicle for free will. Probably best if it's somewhat mysterious.

As for someone wildly altering Mab... Yeah, that's why it's probably a lot better to think about it more in terms of what influence you can have over her. That sort of fundamental change would require the ability to influence her a LOT. If a necromancer didn't have the sort of power needed to back that up then I wouldn't let them pull it off.

Offline newtinmpls

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2011, 01:40:32 PM »
"But the default assumption of the world setting is going to be that supernaturals don't gain free will. To alter that you'd have to either insert it as a basic premise or add it as a consequence of a storyline (and since it's a central-ish theme it would probably need to be a pretty epic storyline)."

This also goes back to "how do you choose to DM?" Back DMing AD&D my monsters had free will and politics and invading a lair of Fire Giants was more about supporting a faction than it was "killing monsters". Sure, the books make a distinction between free will and monsters. I don't. So in that way (one of many) my universe won't be "canon"

Offline Richard_Chilton

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2011, 02:51:25 PM »
Maybe we should define Free Will.

Let's talk about humans.  A teenager who is the sixth generation of a military family, who has been to military school his whole life, could wake up one morning and decide to dropout.  Head down to Burning Man and chill.  Another teenager, one with hippy parents, could decide to ditch the peace and goodwill bullshit and join the army.

Neither choice is likely but both are possible.  While people are the sum of their experiences they still have that spark.  They can still wake up one morning and turn their lives around.  To not just think outside the box but to jump from their current box to another one.  To make an effort to become a radically different person.

Mab is Mab.  She can do a lot of things but she can't dropout - she's tied too tightly in a web of obligations.  What she does defines her almost as much as who she is.  She's incapable of making certain decisions.

The average vampire is the average vampire.  Joe the Black Court vampire can decide if he's going to stalk victim A or victim B, if he going to pursue this plot or that plot, but he has to stalk and he has to pursue plots.  He can't just take off to Burning Man.  His existance as a Black Court Vampire defines his choices as it defines him.  An investiment banker could decide to give all his money to charity and join a Buddhist monistary but Joe is always going to be a Black Court Vampire.  An aging hippy could take up a gun and start shooting everyone who doesn't believe in peace, love, and brotherhood but a Black Court Vampire can't to turn his (un)life around.

It's like having the choice of doors A to Z but you can't even think about using a window - or leaving those doors behind and dancing in the grass.  All of those choices can give the illustion of freewill but only the illusion of freewill.

That said, the illusion is usually enough.  Seriously, Harry doesn't say "Look what Mab's nature is making her do" but "What is Mab planning now?".  She might not have freewill but she has enough choices available to her to fake it.  Joe the Black Court Vampire doesn't have a world of options available to him, but since he can choose whether or not to stalk A or B, to fight or retreat, he has enough choices to fake freewill.

One of the best "freewill verse monster" descriptions in the DV is in the short story Even Hand (which is narrated by Marcone).  To quote from that story:
(click to show/hide)

And that's the issue of freewill in a nutshell.  If Marcone wants to change he can.  He could give all his money to charity and devote his remaining days working at homeless shelter.  He could read to the blind or otherwise change his life for the better - he just has chosen not to.  He is what he has chosen to be - but he still has the choice to change.  Of course, he has enemies.  If he did turn his back on who he is decide to become someone else then odds are he would be dead in days, but knowing that he could decide to reform.

Mab doesn't get a chance to reform.  Joe the vampire doesn't get a chance to reform.  Only Marcone gets to do that because he's the only one with freewill.

Richard

Offline zenten

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2011, 03:53:44 PM »
Personally, I think the concept of free will is bullshit, but that's in the real world.  I get the gist of what Butcher is talking about, at least enough to fake it while running a game, but it requires a certain amount of belief suspension to do.

Offline Drulinda

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Re: Monsters and Free Will
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2011, 04:25:11 PM »
hmm pherhaps a better thing to look at is what/who, if anyone can forcibly alter a beings nature? ex woj is joe the black court vamp may feel something for humans he cared about in life but if hes hungry hes not going to be motivated by said feeling to not eat them, a bc vamp may be eating his/her own child and think ah i reconize this one, interesting. This should probably be upsetting me but it tastes so /good/. Instead of free will can anything/one alter joes behaviour to the point where he might look elsewhere for a meal? maybe take away the good taste of blood, lower aggresion and give feelings more significance?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2011, 04:40:41 PM by Drulinda »