Author Topic: Reviving my Major Lash theory post  (Read 14816 times)

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« on: July 08, 2011, 02:21:47 AM »
This is my favorite pet theory.  It takes several theories about Lash and puts them together coming to some very interesting conclusions.  (old 2010 version link) (dead now)

All of the WoJ's and text excerpts (xrts) are at the bottom and numbered.

My foundational Theory:
Lash used Soulfire when she rebelled against Lasciel.
I don't consider this proven, just that the reasoning and evidence behind it is strong (the same caveat goes for the rest of this post I guess).  In WK, Bob points out that the bit of soul he is missing "is energy" and says that Lash used it as the power source that allowed her to rebel against Lasciel.xrt#1  In SmF, while describing the process of how soulfire is used, Bob says that the soul is converted into energy.xrt#4  So I'm theorizing that Lash took the bit of soul Harry gave her and converted it into the energy (Soulfire) she needed to reinforce the free will Harry gave her.  This allowed her to "become a lot more of what she already was" like in Excerpt #5 and enabled her to rebel against Lasciel.

An attempt to determine who can use Soulfire
It hasn't been defined to us who can use Soulfire.  Jim has said that "angelic types have access to hellfire and soulfire.”woj#1  Also, in WK Bob says that Harry had access to hellfire because he had a tiny bit of Lasciel’s energy giving him access to it.xrt#1  This implies that an angelic being can give another being access to hell/soul fire by investing part of their energy into that separate being.  Thus we have a second set of beings who can use Soulfire.   These 2 sets of beings aren’t necessarily all inclusive, but we know of no others.

First Derivative Theory:
Lash is/was a discrete being falling into the set of beings Jim describes as "Angelic type."woj#1  In other words, Lash is an entity of angelic nature.
So now I’m going to go into supposition (that is to say this is based on varying degrees of less firm reasoning and evidence).  If Lasciel is a Fallen “angel” (aka a member of a subset of the “Angelic type” as referred to in WoJ #1), then a shadow of Lasciel existing within Harry’s subconscious (and powered by a bit of energy from this fallen angel giving him access to hellfire) would be what I would call  “angelic in nature.”  Harry has given this shadow the name Lash and thus gave it the free will that allowed it to rebel against its originator’s energyxrt#1 making it a separate, individual, entity with it's own identity.woj#4  Edit:  As a derivative theory, the foundational theory also reinforces this one if it is true.



Second Derivative Theory:
Uriel didn't give Harry Soulfire
It is my theory that if my above "Foundation Theory, and First Derivative Theory are true, then when Uriel “jostled Harry’s elbow”xrt#3 he did not invest part of his own energy into Harry to give him access, but rather nudged Harry into pulling the trigger on the Soulfire gun that was already in his hand, and made available to him through his latent connection with Lash who had already used Soulfire.  This would make Uriel’s “favor” a truly small one, and reinforces the Foundational Theory.  (props to LML for the trigger/gun analogy)

Edit, Sept 2011:  Further theorizing since the events of GS has suggested that Uriel's action here was actually to invest power into Lash, jumpstarting her back into activity with the dual purposes of giving Harry a conduit to soulfire through her, and possibly enabling her to serve the purpose of the "Parasite" mentioned at the end of GS.  See the response linked before the references below for more.

The Conclusion Derivative Theory
Lash is an Angelic entity that identifies with the heavenly hosts, but hasn’t necessarily been accepted by said “team”
I.E.  The angelic entity, Lash, upon using soulfire, not only rebelled against her originator, but chose to change her identity such as to identify with the kind of angel that uses soulfire.  I’m not saying she earned her wings, but I am saying that she switched teams. 
This is concluded from:   
  • The foundational theory that Lash used Soulfire,
  • The First Derivative Theory that Lash is an entity of “angelic nature,”
  • WoJ #4 that Harry did change Lash
  • WoJ #1 about usage of soulfire or hellfire partially determining what kind of angel an entity is
  • WoJ #3 that Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven.

Bonus Thoughts:
Even before the psychic assault that possibly damaged the parts of Harry’s brain that harbored Lash, she was already showing progressive signs of falling apart at the seams.  I think that this was probably due to Harry’s naming her and imbibing her with free will deteriorating the effectiveness of the “bit of energy” from Lasciel.  Because of this, I feel as though even without this possible psychic bullet she took, she would have had to spend some time recuperating from the psychic trauma she might have gone through just from this fundamental identity crisis.

Additionally, I am unsure (because she is definitely atypical) if the free will Harry imued her with would free her of restrictions that other, more typical angelic types as described by WoJ’s #2 and #3, seem to be subject to.  This would heavily factor into her identity

I posted a response adding new thoughts based off of the material from GS and WoJ's since the GS release here

Aforementioned WoJ's and Book Excerpts

WoJ #1, Source (emphasis added)
Quote from: 2010 Bitten by Books Q&A
“Does the same apply to hellfire/soulfire. What would happen if Harry were to take up Lasciel’s coin and then try to use soulfire and hellfire together? Would that result in Harry dying horribly?”
Those are different. They’re really two sides of the same coin–but they can’t really exist together like that. They aren’t explosively reactive, but they aren’t additive, either. Which one came into the person to be used would depend on the person who was using it, and what they were using it for.
Angelic types have access to both. Which one they use is partially what determines what /kind/ of angels they are.

WoJ #2, Source
Quote from: 2010 Bitten by Books Q&A
“Could Uriel have chosen to help Harry if he had wanted to, or is there actually some universal limit that prevents him from directly influencing the world in such overt fashion?”
A little of both. Technically, it was /possible/ for Uriel to act directly, but the consequences would have been extreme, both for him and for the mortal world–to the point where you’d have to be moderately insane to do it. Or else, really, really committed to some kind of personal moral compass that was 90 degrees off true.
The last angel to do that is a little notorious.

WoJ #3, Source @ ~6:11
Quote
Q:  Does Lasciel's shadow get to heaven because she redeemed herself?
A:  The answer to that is so complicated than is easy to give, especially without giving out extra story and ruining the fun.  No.  Lasciel's spirit didn't go to heaven.  And now, (sing song) I'm not gonna tell you.

WoJ #4, Source (bolding added)
Quote
Will we see Lash or Lasciel again?
Lasciel’s story is not over.  And keep in mind what’s said about ‘a woman scorned.’  Also keep in mind that Lasciel is NOT Lash; Lasciel did not reabsorb the entity that Harry actually changed. (Yes, he use those words “that Harry actually changed.”)

Excerpt #1   While discussing the aftermath of the psychic attack Harry endured at the end of White Knight, Bob points out that part of Harry's soul is missing.  After some banter to say that this isn't too big a deal, the book says: (bolding added)
Quote from: WK
"If it's no big deal," I said, "then why is it so interesting?"
"Oh, well," Bob said.  "It is energy, you know.  And I wonder if maybe...maybe...well, look, Harry.  There was a tiny bit of Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to hellfire.  That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."
"So it was running off my soul?  Like I'm some kind of battery?"
“Hey,” Bob said, “don’t get all righteous.  You gave it to her.  Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise free will.”  Bob shook his head.  Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me.  I’m glad I don’t have it.  Ugh, no, thank you.  But you gave her some.  You gave her a name.  The will came with it.”

Excerpt #2 (during the psychic attack in the deeps, Harry tells Lash to help without him calling the coin.  bolding added)
Quote from: WK
"I can't," she replied, her voice anguished.  "She would never forgive that.  Never accept me back into her...just take the coin. Harry, just take the coin.  P-please."

[and later when she agrees to actually help]

"I..."  She shook her head and said, very softly, wonderingly, "She...doesn't deserve you."
Deserved or not, the fallen angel wasn't getting me.  Not ever.
Lasciel squared her sholders and straightened.  "You're right," she said.  "It is my choice...

Excerpt #3 (The sensation Harry felt when he ended up using his Soulfire Fist of Wrath!)
Quote from: SmF
Ever been carrying something and had someone intentionally, unexpectedly jostle your elbow?  It felt something like that- a tiny but critically timed nudge just as I threw my will into a last futile effort of defiance.

Excerpt #4 (Bob is explaining Harry's Soulfire Fist of Wrath! bolding added)
Quote
"So what you're saying is that this hand construct was made out of my soul," I said.
"Your soul and your magic fused together, yeah," Bob said.  "Your soul converted into energy.  Soulfire."

Excerpt #5 (more of Bob and Harry discussing soulfire bolding added)
Quote from: SmF
I grunted.  "So what you're saying is that soulfire doesn't let me do anything new. It just makes me more of what I already am."
"A lot more," Bob said, nodding cheerfully from his shelf.  "It's how angels do all of their stuff."
« Last Edit: June 06, 2013, 09:07:47 PM by Serack »
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline Zolt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 961
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2011, 02:37:56 AM »
The main part of that theory that I have a problem with is that Lash isn't technically an angelic being. She's an imprint of a fallen angel. She's literally a part of Harry's mind that has been "flashed" with an image of Lasciel.

Then again, "that which holds the image of an angel becomes itself an angel."  So your point is valid. Also, Rashid is the 12th Doctor.
I am not insane. But the voices in my head probably are.

Offline Sh33p

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 316
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2011, 02:39:47 AM »
...would fit with Uriel's MO as being somewhat shrewd enough to earn Mab's favor. Would also fit with his total unwillingness to take overt action afterwards.

I get the feeling that the Angels are ultimately as clueless as any given mortal about what the White God has planned. They're just a small bit better at reading the tea leaves, and the nominally good ones are simply scared to death of breaking rules after seeing what became of their fellows.

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 02:44:58 AM »
The main part of that theory that I have a problem with is that Lash isn't technically an angelic being. She's an imprint of a fallen angel. She's literally a part of Harry's mind that has been "flashed" with an image of Lasciel.

Then again, "that which holds the image of an angel becomes itself an angel."  So your point is valid. Also, Rashid is the 12th Doctor.

If in order to be an angelic being, said being has to have been around since the dawn of time, then yah she isn't one.  However, if you can cleave a small part off a powerful angelic being, and it becomes it's own separate entity, I'm theorizing it is still an angelic being.

You lost me with the Rashid comment...

Edit:  Apparently it's a Doctor Who reference.  I don't really watch much TV at all, so it's lost on me...  I'm thinking maybe I should be ashamed...
« Last Edit: July 08, 2011, 02:50:49 AM by Serack »
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline habu987

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 734
  • Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2011, 02:47:18 AM »
So your point is valid. Also, Rashid is the 12th Doctor.

It all makes sense now!  But where's the TARDIS?  Or does he keep it parked by the Outer Gates?
Lt. Commander Habu reporting for duty as the 1st Officer of the USS Hollyprise, Captain Dresden.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things."
-Marine General "Chesty" Puller

DF Purity: 76.8% - Brute Squad

Offline Powderkegger

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 186
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2011, 02:52:23 AM »
It's an interesting theory. Where do you see it coming up in the story? Lash's "resurrection" as a capital-A Angel to assist Harry in some way? Screams BAT to me. If we could get Lasciel on one of Harry's shoulders and Lash on the other that'd...that'd just be super.

Also, always happy to see how many DF fans are DW fans too!

Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

  • O. M. G.
  • ***
  • Posts: 39098
  • Riding eternal, shiny and Firefox
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2011, 02:53:10 AM »
If in order to be an angelic being, said being has to have been around since the dawn of time, then yah she isn't one.  However, if you can cleave a small part off a powerful angelic being, and it becomes it's own separate entity, I'm theorizing it is still an angelic being.

I have a feeling there's something in the Summa Theologica that rules that out, but it's too late for me to eyeball-grep Aquinas.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.

Offline Zolt

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 961
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2011, 02:54:59 AM »
If in order to be an angelic being, said being has to have been around since the dawn of time, then yah she isn't one.  However, if you can cleave a small part off a powerful angelic being, and it becomes it's own separate entity, I'm theorizing it is still an angelic being.

You lost me with the Rashid comment...
Sorry, I was making a Dr. Who crossover with these last comments, my brain kind of froze after that.

As for Lash's nature, from what we're told she's a kind of photocopy of Lasciel, but the paper she's printed on is Harry's brain. Then again, Jim refers to her as a living, thinking entity that "Harry actually did change".
« Last Edit: November 30, 2012, 07:21:25 PM by Elegast »
I am not insane. But the voices in my head probably are.

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2011, 03:12:47 AM »
It's an interesting theory. Where do you see it coming up in the story? Lash's "resurrection" as a capital-A Angel to assist Harry in some way? Screams BAT to me. If we could get Lasciel on one of Harry's shoulders and Lash on the other that'd...that'd just be super.

Also, always happy to see how many DF fans are DW fans too!

I get the idea that at some point Jim's ideas on what to do with Lash were rather broad brush strokes and some details like this were not fleshed out at all.  Because of this, before he wrote the Lash story, I am not sure he knew every detail of where it was going.  If I were to guess, back when he came up with the main overarching plot, he figured by book X Harry would gain a demonic influence, and by book Y he would overcome this influence.  As the actual story fleshed out, and Jim figured out how this would happen, Lash became her own separate being, and now Jim has this extra character that he has now killed off.  The following WoJ was made shortly after WK was released, and it shows me that at the point of killing Lash off, he fully intended Lasciel to come back into the picture and be a part of the future story, but didn't really know what he might end up doing about this new fully separate/self identifying being.

Quote
What roll will Lasciel play in future books?
That's going to be another one of those where I go "Hahaha, I know and you don't" because, you know, it's the whole, I want to provide for my family thing.  Were're not done with Lasciel.  We might not even be totally done with Lash, but we will have to see how that goes. 

In the years since Jim made that comment though, other people have asked about this again and Jim has explicitly said that both Lasciel, and Lash's stories are not done. 

One thing is pretty certain though.  A 100% cooperative and reliable Lash in Harry's head was too much of an overpowering advantage for Harry to have in the first half of the Series, plus she knew too much about the mysterious back story of his parents, and as such, she had to be offed.
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline spinningcats

  • Participant
  • *
  • Posts: 54
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2011, 03:34:02 AM »
In the years since Jim made that comment though, other people have asked about this again and Jim has explicitly said that both Lasciel, and Lash's stories are not done. 

One thing is pretty certain though.  A 100% cooperative and reliable Lash in Harry's head was too much of an overpowering advantage for Harry to have in the first half of the Series, plus she knew too much about the mysterious back story of his parents, and as such, she had to be offed.

I really hope she doesn't come back.  One of the worst parts of the books imo.  Besides being overpowered and letting Harry know or do anything when he needed to (speak any language, play the guitar, memorize anything, hellfire)  I really, really disliked the interactions with his subconcious inside his head.

Offline Beamer

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 140
  • Balance is the ultimate good
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2011, 03:56:09 AM »
Would Lash changing teams have any effect on her and/or Harry’s ability to access hellfire.
This could poke a hole in your theory, place a time for her rebellion, or be completely meaningless, depending on the answer.   

Offline HadeN

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 194
  • rule# 32
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2011, 06:50:07 AM »
Would Lash changing teams have any effect on her and/or Harry’s ability to access hellfire.
This could poke a hole in your theory, place a time for her rebellion, or be completely meaningless, depending on the answer.   


I would say a definite maybe. This wouldn't do anything/ maybe actually support the theory though. Lash didn't switch and start using soulfire until the last few seconds in Harry. That means we never got to see directly if it did anything. If Uriel actually did show Harry how to use soulfire through residual energy from Lash, then her switching would probably mean he couldn't use hellfire anymore (no one would need to show him how, but he still couldn't) I would say that this point makes a good argument for her switching on its own.

Starting to look like a triple rainbow

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2011, 09:20:28 AM »
Would Lash changing teams have any effect on her and/or Harry’s ability to access hellfire.
This could poke a hole in your theory, place a time for her rebellion, or be completely meaningless, depending on the answer.   

My take:  When Lash rebelled against her originator, the bit of lasciel's energy that was giving Harry access to hellfire was either destroyed of fundamentally changed to the point where it was no longer the same thing...  I.E. Soulfire and Hellfire are 2 sides of the same coin and that coin had now flipped.  So yah he wouldn't have access to hell fire any more (He didn't obviously) and instead he had access to soulfire, he just didn't know it/didn't know how to access it. 
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline Serack

  • Special Collections Division
  • Posty McPostington
  • ****
  • Posts: 7745
  • WoJ Rock Star!
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2011, 09:24:47 AM »
I really hope she doesn't come back.  One of the worst parts of the books imo.  Besides being overpowered and letting Harry know or do anything when he needed to (speak any language, play the guitar, memorize anything, hellfire)  I really, really disliked the interactions with his subconcious inside his head.

I hope she comes back, but not within Harry, for the reasons you give.  All the reasons you give for her being overpowered were balanced by the fact that they came with a price.  He was slowly having his soul and identity eroded.  It's when this price went away because she had rebelled against her originator that it becomes truly overpowered, and hence she was offed.
DF WoJ Compilation
Green is my curator voice.
Name dropping "Serack" in a post /will/ draw my attention to it

*gnaws on the collar of his special issue Beta Foo long-sleeved jacket*

Offline X

  • Conversationalist
  • **
  • Posts: 122
    • View Profile
Re: Reviving my Major Lash theory post
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2011, 09:55:28 AM »
Quote
Serack
My take:  When Lash rebelled against her originator, the bit of lasciel's energy that was giving Harry access to hellfire was either destroyed of fundamentally changed to the point where it was no longer the same thing...  I.E. Soulfire and Hellfire are 2 sides of the same coin and that coin had now flipped.  So yah he wouldn't have access to hell fire any more (He didn't obviously) and instead he had access to soulfire, he just didn't know it/didn't know how to access it.

The problem I have with this statement is that you are essentially suggesting that a mere imprint of a time immortal being was able to give Harry access to Soulfire.  The reason I think that Lash allowed Harry the use of Hellfire is because that is the nature of the Denarians.  They offer power, and Lasciel herself is known as The Temptress.  If that is her nature, then offering a small sampling of power in exchange for binding his soul is well within her nature, thus the imprint is allowed to give access to Hellfire.

Harry gave Lash, a mere shadow free will, to go against her creator, but to say that the mere shadow that was Lash gave Harry access to Soulfire, and allowed him to use it after she was no longer present within him as far as we know, I find that to be an extreme stretch.

Furthermore, in Turn Coat, Uriel himself converses with Harry, informing him of the good side actually doing something, just not in a noticeable way at first, then Mab appears and gives us a little backstory regarding Uriel.  If Lash gave Harry the ability to use Soulfire, then you are essentially saying that Jim Butcher himself planted Uriel, a freaking Archangel, in the series as a red herring.  Possible? Yes.  But I disagree.
Think of me like you would Homer Simpson with a Black "?" bag on his head, except with an X.  Obviously, instead of Mr. Anonymous, I'm Mr. X.  Except without the Mr.