Author Topic: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)  (Read 24214 times)

Offline WarlocksRUs

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2011, 04:48:16 PM »
This is the second time that you mentioned that there were dead goblins on Arctis Tor, so I just had to check, and that is indeed what Harry says (Proven Guilty, paperback pg. 357):

Quote
I rose and nudged a smaller skull with my staff. "The littler ones were goblins," I said. "Foot soldiers."

That's weird. Because on page 294 of Changes is this exchange between Harry and Susan:

Quote
"I..." I shuddered. "I think they're goblins."
"You think?"
"I've never seen one before," I replied. "But... they match the descriptions I've heard."

Sure, thecnically he'd still never seen a live goblin before. But he seemed to recognize a dead one awfully quickly. I've kept dogs, cats, and rats as pets my whole life, but I'm not sure I'd recognize the skulls of any of them on sight. My tin-foil hat wonders if that's significant, if someone has been messing with Harry's memory again.

On a side note, the above quote is followed by this exchange:

Quote
"Shouldn't we be able to handle, like, a million of them?"
I snorted. "You liked those movies too, huh?"
Her reply was a smile, one touched with sadness.
"Yeah, I was thinking of you when I saw them, too."

This places the events of Changes between the years 2004 (after The Return of the King released) and 2011 (if Pricille's estimate of changes occurring in ASF 11, which is an outside estimate I think), no sooner and no later.

ETA: well, it could happen as early as 2003 ("those" referring to "Fellowship" and "Two Towers") and as late as 2012 (since "Fellowship" was released in December 2001), but that's the limit.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 05:16:10 PM by WarlocksRUs »

Offline itari

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2011, 04:59:14 PM »
Nice catch. Harry, though, has seen goblins in SK:

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Another troop of battered, lantern-jawed, burly humanoids with wide, batlike ears, goblins, dragged their dead and some of their wounded over to the sylphs

I wonder... is this significant?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2011, 05:01:48 PM by itari »

Offline WarlocksRUs

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2011, 05:17:09 PM »
There you go.

Continuity error or mind whammy. You be the judge.

Offline AcornArmy

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2011, 05:38:27 PM »
Fact? ...
(click to show/hide)

Don't know why I was suddenly reminded so strongly of that movie, but there it is.
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Offline Sm0kEyNy

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2011, 05:45:31 PM »
There you go.

Continuity error or mind whammy. You be the judge.


 :o
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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2011, 08:02:13 PM »
Continuity error or mind whammy. You be the judge.

Probably not, but if you'll be the actress I can be the bishop.
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Offline WarlocksRUs

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2011, 08:07:17 PM »
Probably not, but if you'll be the actress I can be the bishop.

I think I may have sad something dirty and I don't even know what. That's a new feeling...

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2011, 08:39:26 PM »
That's a new feeling...

...said the maid to the vicar.

 ;D

Offline WarlocksRUs

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2011, 08:47:52 PM »
/facepalm

Offline Serack

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2011, 01:22:04 AM »
Ok, here's my promised assessment of PG after this reread.

I'm not sure how much of this will be a direct response to the OP, but I have several things to point out, and one WAG.

#1
Sandra Marling is usually pointed to as the main orchestrator for all things nasty that happened at Splattercon since she motivated Molly to use fear, and people point out that she didn't touch Harry.  However, if she were powerful enough to knock out the lights and set up the cold wards around the Fetch attacks, she might have trouble using a cell phone:

Quote from: PG ch.24
"How did you know where I was"
"Sandra." he [BF Nelson] said."I called her cell.  She told me you'd checked in."

This doesn't definitively show that she wasn't the one throwing around magic but.  It's a strike against her, and indicates there was another player in the background, that might have been using her as a cutout.  

#2
If Glau was another cutout for who set Madrigal Raith up to take the fall for the Fetch attacks, and the Scarecrow took him out to silence him, then that implies that Mab was involved in that setup.  

#3
Someone directed Harry's wammy reversal to detect Molly from within his web on the Theater.

Up to this point, the phages showed up either in close proximity to Nelson (same bathroom as him), or next to Rosanna from her GF's makeup mirror.  This time Rosanna, was in the hospital, Nelson was on his way to St. Marry's with a paranoiagasim, and Molly was at her Mom's.  So in the last Fetch attack on the Theater, Harry had his web up to detect the entrance of the phages, and to detect their summoner under the assumption that the summoner was within the hotel.

Quote from: PG ch23
"Their summoner is going to draw them in," I finished, following the line of reasoning.  "It's like... I could blanket the surrounding area in fog, but if they have someone on this end, the phages will have a beacon they can use to home in on the hotel."

I'm projecting here, but if someone is on this end of the NN veil throwing up wards and hexing lights and stuff, and this person anticipates Harry setting up a classic White Council doctrine response to a summoner of bad juju, and yet the bad juju is actually being sent, not summoned, maybe they put up a "single, quiet, quivering pulse" thaumatalogically (did I spell it right that time?) linked to Molly within the bounds of the Hotel for Harry to latch onto knowing he would be looking for it.

Here's the description of what happened from Harry's PoV

Quote from: PG ch.25
...Streamers from the lure whipped out along the lines of power that constituted my detection web, brushing lightly at the entities, attracting their attention, giving them a whiff of rich sustenance. 
And somewhere in the middle of all that, I felt a single, quiet, quivering pulse- A living presence that could only be the phages' summoner and beacon. 

This scenario seems likely to me because Molly wasn't inside his web, she was at her parent's home.  Maybe Mab couldn't send the Fetches to "fetch" Molly, but if another mortal sent them after her that would get the trick done.

WAG
This is a stab in the dark.  I don't think it is necessarily true, but it kinda tickled my intuition a little so I'm sharing.
I think it's possible that Rawlings is involved with the Black Council.  

I was paying close attention to the sequence of events leading up to the last phage attack on the theater, and noticed that right before the attack Rawlings checked in on Harry and saw how he had things set up.  This tied in with the idea that someone had set up their own spell to direct Harry's "lure" to Molly makes me think that Rawlings might have been checking up on Harry as a form of recon for this other spell slinger.  Another thing that makes me wonder about Rawlings, is his ties to Jack Murphy.  He is the only one living other than Karrin that interacted with "Jack" Murphy, and maybe he's actually a tie to the bad things that happened to him.

Edit:  Reworked  #3 a little.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 03:07:42 AM by Serack »
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Offline the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2011, 01:46:37 AM »
#2
If Glau was another cutout for who set Madrigal Raith up to take the fall for the Fetch attacks, and the Scarecrow took him out to silence him, then that implies that Mab was involved in that setup.  

Only if the Scarecrow is actually working for Mab, which as I have stated, I see strong reason to doubt.

Quote
#3
Someone directed Harry's wammy reversal to detect Molly from within his web on the Theater.

I'm unconvinced that takes conscious intervention.  Harry structured his spell to bounce the phages back at their summoner (I get the impression from this and BR that that may be a standard White Council defensive practice)  fetches don't have a summoner, but Molly's acts of black magic in warping the minds of Nelson and Rosie is set up as the initial hook for them, the fear that they first home in on, no ? I can see a generalised spell that's meant to hit "human who caused these beings to be here through magic" treating Molly as the closest thing these fetches have to a summoner and bouncing the phages back to her by default.  Harry does seem to believe something like that to be the case, considering how he takes responsibility for her kidnap with Charity in the church.
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Offline Sm0kEyNy

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2011, 02:02:49 AM »
I get the impression from this and BR that that may be a standard White Council defensive practice


i could be wrong but doesnt Bob actually say something right along those lines????
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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2011, 02:06:02 AM »
i could be wrong but doesnt Bob actually say something right along those lines????

he might well. My memory, contrary to rumour, is frequently imperfect.
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Offline Sm0kEyNy

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2011, 02:08:50 AM »
Bob’s eyelights brightened even more. “Ooooooo, classic White Council doctrine. When the phages come through, you point them straight at the guy who summoned them. Give him a dose of his own medicine.”

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Re: A fresh perspective on Proven Guity (Spoilers for everything)
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2011, 02:10:58 AM »
Bob’s eyelights brightened even more. “Ooooooo, classic White Council doctrine. When the phages come through, you point them straight at the guy who summoned them. Give him a dose of his own medicine.”

Thank you.

That suggests, to my mind, that the enemy might well understand that well enough to use it against Harry; I like the idea of the conceptual judo involved in the strategy misfiring because Harry is wrong about the situation in ways the enemy anticipates, rather than the enemy hacking Harry's wards, because a) it's more elegant and b) I am not thinking offhand of anywhere else in the series where one wizard really hacks another's workings that way.
Mildly OCD. Please do not troll.

"What do you mean, Lawful Silly isn't a valid alignment?"

kittensgame, Sandcastle Builder, Homestuck, Welcome to Night Vale, Civ III, lots of print genre SF, and old-school SATT gaming if I had the time.  Also Pandemic Legacy is the best game ever.