Author Topic: More Holy Swords Than Three?  (Read 10578 times)

Offline TheMouse

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2011, 07:04:18 PM »
What about the nails from when Peter was crucified? He was the one who was crucified upside-down, right?

Yeah. Nasty, that.

I think that the power of the nails that were used to crucify Christ are kind of in a league of their own. That whole son of God/is actually God thing sort of trumps the being a saint thing. So perhaps the Sword of Saint Peter might be made with all of the nails used to crucify Peter.

Incidentally, Peter is the patron saint of my home town. Every year there is a fiesta, and you can expect to hear crowds of people shouting, "Viva San Pedro!" everywhere you go for a couple of days.

Offline Hudjes

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2011, 08:26:54 AM »
I don't see why there couldn't be more holy swords, or why anyone would even think that there aren't, but the Swords of The Cross are explicitly a set of three linked by the crucification and named after 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." (Text of New International Version Bible). Fidelacchius being the sword of Faith, Esperacchius the sword of Hope, and Amoracchius the sword of Love.

Offline InFerrumVeritas

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2011, 05:27:12 AM »
For other types of "Holy Warrior" characters, I tend to think the "Sacred Guardian" power listed with the Temple Dogs is really a good idea.  That way, the Swords of the Cross can remain unique, but their general theme can be maintained.  Specifically, before I settled on my current character, I was debating a Sikh who had this ability. 

Offline Jett

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2011, 04:55:30 AM »
Considering the number of saints who were martyred, I thought that there might be holy weapons made from things involving their executions. What about the nails from when Peter was crucified? He was the one who was crucified upside-down, right?

If I remember correctly, the sword of St. Peter (the one he used to lop off an ear in Gethsemene) was taken to England by Joesph of Arimathea (who apparently ran some sort of import/export business).  The Abbot of Glastonbury gave it to St. George, who is also venerated in Islam.  .  I'm not sure, but I think it was called the Sword of Mercy.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2011, 05:01:04 AM by Jett »

Offline Mr. Ghostbuster

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2011, 08:11:34 AM »
All this talk about holy swords. Now there are holy axes, staves and knives all over the world feeling unwanted and neglected.
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Offline BumblingBear

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2011, 09:56:12 AM »
All this talk about holy swords. Now there are holy axes, staves and knives all over the world feeling unwanted and neglected.

A scion of Dionysus could have a holy corkscrew too...
Myself: If I were in her(Murphy's) position, I would have studied my ass off on the supernatural and rigged up special weapons to deal with them.  Murphy on the other hand just plans to overpower bad guys with the angst of her short woman's syndrome and blame all resulting failures on Harry.

Offline Save_vs_DM

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2011, 10:02:28 AM »
In my campaign, the players have recently uncovered information about an unknown branch of the Order of Santiago which was not secularized in the sixteenth century, but instead continues to watch over four Swords of the Saints: Joyeuse, Durandal, Curtana and Almace, and their potential wielders. [Note:  I chose these with reference to the Song of Roland and each contains relics of a specific patron saint.]
Of course, Charlemagne’s sword is said to have been buried with him, and Curtana is currently in Ultima Thule…  ;)
We did something similar in my game. I even have stats for Durendal, if you're interested.

Personally, I don't think it breaks anything if there are more swords, though said swords should have different powers. Here's what I have for Durendal.


Durendal [-3]
Description: Durendal is a holy relic every bit as powerful as one of the Swords of the Cross.  While the Knights of the Cross concern themselves with fighting the Order of the Blackened Denarius, the weilder of Durendal (and several other lesser holy relics) has been tasked with protecting a smaller area of the world.  Where the Swords of the Cross can cut through the most potent protections Durendal can temporarily strip an evil entity of its greatest power.  Such a boon does not last long, however, and so the weilders of this holy relic learn to finish their fights quickly.
Musts: You must have a destiny or calling to inherit the Sword, represented as a high concept or template.
Skills Affected: Weapons, others

Armor of Faith.  When weilded with a true and holy purpose Durendal surrounds the bearer with a nimbus of golden radiance.  This holy light provides the weidler with Armor: 2 against the attacks of supernaturally evil beings and creatures.

Divine Purpose. Durendal may only be swung with true selfless purpose in mind and heart; if this is not the case, the bond between the Weilder and the Sword is broken and may only be restored by undergoing some sort of trial of faith. When swung without such purpose in mind and heart, the blow does not land (any attack roll automatically fails), the bond is immediately broken, and the sword falls from the wielder’s hand.

Hidden from the Unworthy.  Durendal was only meant to be weilded by those of great faith and piety.  Those who do not possess the Righteousness power tend to overlook the presence of Durendal – at least until it has been drawn.

Holy. This weapon is a powerful holy symbol in its own right. Its very touch is like holy water or that of a cross or other symbol of faith backed by the belief of the possessor.

Lay Low the Wicked. Durendal was crafted with a singular purpose in mind – protecting the innocent from supernatural evil.  The Weilder of Durendal can temporarily supress the powers of supernaturally evil beings by spending a Fate point and making a special maneuver.  This is a Weaponry manuever opposed by the target's Conviction or Endurance (whichever is higher).  If the maneuver is successful the Weilder may supress one of the target's powers for a number of exchanges equal to the shifts gained in the action.  If the maneuver is unsuccessful the Weilder instead takes stress equal to the shifts gained by the target.

It’s a Sword. Durendal is a scimitar (+2 damage) with a golden hilt.  It is said to contain within its golden hilt one tooth of Saint Peter, blood of Saint Basil, hair of Saint Denis, and a piece of the raiment of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Unbreakable. As an Item of Power, it cannot be broken, save through dedicated magical ritual predicated upon perverting its purpose.

Discount Already Applied. As an Item of Power, the sword already includes the one-time discount (page 167). This means that if the character possesses more than one Item of Power, the one-time discount will not apply on that second item. If Durendal is the second or subsequent artifact the character gains, the refresh cost is –5.
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Offline Archmage_Cowl

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2011, 11:32:12 PM »
that durendal write up is pretty sweet! would you mind posting the cost for it's individual abilities? I know holy is a -1 but other than that i figure it's better to try and get it from the source before i try and come up with my own lol
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Offline Katarn

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2011, 01:02:38 AM »
Other alleged Holy Swords:

*Sword of St. Peter-  used to cut off the ear of the high priest's servant, Malchus.
(Sword Trio)
**Durendal- Charlemagne's paladin Count Roland's sword- with 1 tooth of St. Peter, blood of St. Basil, hair of St. Denis, and the raimant of Mary (all in the hilt).  Roland failed to destroy the blade during an invasion, so he hid it under his corpse (along with a horn to alert Charlemagne).
**Curtana- "Sword of Mercy" owned by Edward the Confessor.  A broken blade now held with the crown jewels.  Used by Ogier as well.
**Joyeuse- Charlemagne's sword
*Zulfiqar- sword in Muslim theology.
(You could argue that the trio ARE the holy Swords we already know, much like Excalibur)


See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_swords#Swords

Offline Remy Sinclair

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2011, 06:32:35 PM »
The Knights of the Cross are pretty interesting in my opinion, but they also have a large problem as well. There are supposedly only three holy swords, two of which eventually fell into Dresden's hands and were never redistributed. First of all, WHY IN HELL would the church even allow Dresden to keep such relics? Wouldn't they want to take them and redistribute them immediately to worthy successors. There is no time for these swords to sit around idle, when there is a constant war to fight against evil.

Secondly, just THREE SWORDS in the entire world? Come on, there are numerous legends of TONS of other holy swords. What about the sword of Jenne D'arc for instance? She's a canonized saint who performed miracles on the battlefield, so don't tell me her blade wouldn't be a holy relic comparable to the swords that the Knights of the Cross wield.

Honestly, can only THREE SWORDS make a difference in the ENTIRE WORLD! Definitely shows the church doesn't care enough to fight evil if they depend on only three people to be their champions, while the regular priests just give their weak ass prayers and hope to make the world a better place. So SHOULD there be more than three holy swords in the Dresdenverse?

Well when I ran my game, I kept the 3 Swords of the Knights of the Cross, however, I did not have them be the only holy weapons in my game. This was a change I made. Some ideas I got were from threads here in the DFRPG others made as well as my personal ideas as well.

Yes, for the Knights of the Cross there are only 3 Swords, each sword was made with one of the nails that pierced Christ on the Cross. Now you could also have Holy Weapons like that made from the Apostles who were crucified as well. What about the Lance of Longinus which was the lance that pierced Christ's side?

But what of the Archangels? Some have had people wield their weapons in history as well and some beliefs Saints like Joan of Arc carried the sword of St. Michael. The Roman Catholic Church is but one faith but not the only ones fighting the evil that is out there. And why does it have to be a Christian Holy Weapon?

Some people have had designs of people carrying weapons of other good gods like Thor for instance as well.

Someone here mentioned reading The Warrior in Side Jobs and that is good idea, because Harry says some of the same things you are saying. Jim answers part of it but not all of it. There are still things Harry (and the readers) still need to learn about the Dresdenverse.

There is a story of a Fourth Nail at least according to Gypsy Legend. In the story there was suppose to be four nails that pierced Christ, but before the Romans nailed Christ to the Cross a young Gypsy boy stole one of the nails. In doing so lessened Christ's suffering and the Gypsies because of their kindness of stealing that nail no longer are considered sinning when stealing.

But that nail never pierced Christ so I do not know if you want to say it was Enchanted or not, but that is a legend to use.

Offline bobjob

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2011, 08:23:02 PM »
I've just introduced a new sword into my game using the legend of the 4th nail. I've called it Pietacchius, the Sword of Piety. In the lore of my world, each of the swords is associated with an archangel and this one is associated with Uriel, which is also why I've been calling it the hidden blade. It is only made available when things are truly dire. In my version of Austin, Uriel has tasked the player with guarding a newly minted Ley Node that that was created when a skinwalker shaman attempted to reawaken the spirit of the Earth. I'm treating it like the Buffy Hellmouth in Sunny Vale, it's a slowly expanding node of magical power not associated with any ley lines and now all of the supernatural world wants control of it and are heading to Austin.

Since in the Dresden lore each of the wielders of a sword is descended from nobility, the wielder in my game is a descendant of the first Gypsy who kept the 4th nail, thus making the fourth nail possible. 
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Offline Silverblaze

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2011, 08:26:31 PM »
I think items of power and holy relics should be rare but not constrained to three.  As far as a game world goes, that would be too restrictive.  Novel wise, unless the legend of the fourth nail comes up, I'm betting there are less holy relics than in most games or the "forces of good" wouldn't be playing catch up, so much as supression.

I think a 4th sword fo the cross is viable in games.  I think many historic weapons, holy or not are often thematically appropriate.

I think going overboard is likely a bad idea too, but that varies by palyer/GM taste and from game to game so as opinionated as I am...who am I to say really?

I pose another question along these lines.  Since a sword can be unmade and in theory reforged... what if a nail was put into another weapon (likely melee)?  Would it still work or are swords so linked to angels that only swords would work?

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Offline Mr. Ghostbuster

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2011, 02:25:48 AM »
Nah, the fourth nail was worked into the metal of the first minigun and given to Chuck Norris.
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Offline Ren

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2011, 12:35:33 AM »
There are indeed many a holy weapons of various faiths scattered across the world, heck In my game I introduced a fragment of Poseidon's Trident! If you want to have a justification to have more swords with the same powers as the Swords of the Cross, well there are all of those fragments of the true cross floating around that were soaked in the blood, no doubt those could have been turned into any variety of weapons with similar powers.
As a note related to the 4th Nail, I finally got to use that idea in my game and part of the story revolved around the fact that the weapon that was built around it was seeped in the untapped potential, the unlimited possibility of what it COULD become. It had a power that would allow it to kill ANYTHING but could only do that once and that death, as well as the intent of the wielder, would shape the sword's destiny.  I set them up with several really hard choices to determine its ultimate fate.
1- Kill Simon Magus who had been cursed by St. Peter 2000+ Years ago with a body that could not die, but could never fully heal so he was in constant agony. Doing so would essentially turn the Sword if the 4th Nail into the 4th Sword of the Cross. However the sword would then be useless in an upcoming battle they would need it for.
2- Kill an ancient body-hopping Vampiric Spirit that could not otherwise be killed. That would however turn the blade to Evil as it would then become the Sword of the Blackened Cross and be wielded by a newly-appointed Knight of Hell, though he would be obligated to assist them in the final battle. 
3- Kill someone they new who has been suffering from amnesia until recently but was ultimately revealed to be an Angel who had been cast out, but not fallen. Killing her would turn the sword to the very specific task of Killing Denarians, permanently.
There was a lot of back and forth about what they should do and some other suggestions of who they could kill but ultimately went with option #3 as the least of the evil choices...though the long-term effects have yet to be determined. But its a sword stained with an Angel's Blood...what could possibly go wrong?
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Offline Set Abominae

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Re: More Holy Swords Than Three?
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2011, 01:10:57 AM »
Personally I keep it to three since Faith, Hope, and Love are a specific thematic device taken from the bible and thus germane to the swords; specifically 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." However the King James translation has it as "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these [is] charity", so I suppose you could make a case for a fourth Sword of Charity. Call it Caritasacchius perhaps. However it should be noted that in Christian theology, agapē (love) and caritas (charity) are often seen as the same/interchangeable, especially in regards to the divine. That's why so many different bible translations have either charity or love quoted in the verse.

Make of that what you will.
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