Author Topic: Combat Speed  (Read 4157 times)

Offline Tallyrand

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Combat Speed
« on: March 15, 2011, 10:53:05 PM »
Ok, so one thing that I'm finding difficulty with in games is the lack of variation in combat speed.  It doesn't matter if you're the Flash or a sloth, everyone gets one action per round.  I know that putting extra actions as a flat bonus for the speed powers would unbalance things but I would like to try to find a solution to this.  Currently in my game I've suggested the rule that with a Fate Chip and an appropriate aspect (or power) you can at any time take an action, even out of turn order.  This works for most normal situations, but still doesn't quite fix the problem to my satisfaction.

Does anyone else agree that this is a problem?  Has anyone used house rules in there game to allow for multiple actions per round?

(Note: While this is of course primarily for speed and its effects in the DFRPG I'd love to see how people have used it or seen it used in hacked systems as well, as I think that with this fix Fate would be great for representing Shadowrun or a Super Hero genre game.)

Offline ways and means

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 11:13:52 PM »
Ok, so one thing that I'm finding difficulty with in games is the lack of variation in combat speed.  It doesn't matter if you're the Flash or a sloth, everyone gets one action per round.  I know that putting extra actions as a flat bonus for the speed powers would unbalance things but I would like to try to find a solution to this.  Currently in my game I've suggested the rule that with a Fate Chip and an appropriate aspect (or power) you can at any time take an action, even out of turn order.  This works for most normal situations, but still doesn't quite fix the problem to my satisfaction.

Does anyone else agree that this is a problem?  Has anyone used house rules in there game to allow for multiple actions per round?

(Note: While this is of course primarily for speed and its effects in the DFRPG I'd love to see how people have used it or seen it used in hacked systems as well, as I think that with this fix Fate would be great for representing Shadowrun or a Super Hero genre game.)

The main alternatives to a flat initiative system is either a tick system (Exalted TM) or a multiple action power (celerity etc) the problem with a tick system is that it is complicated and abuseable when stacking low tick attacks with speed reducing powers. The problem with a celerity power that provides extra actions is that anyone without this power is left in the dust as action are the ultimate resource in any game. Given also that part of the charm of fate is that it has a simple and quick combat system adding in extra actions powers could considerably slowdown the game.  
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 11:15:28 PM by ways and means »
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 11:21:26 PM »
Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?

Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2011, 01:25:43 AM »
I've given this some thought, but I don't have a good answer. So far, this has not been much of a problem. But it did shut down my Shadowrun-to-DFRPG conversion idea.

Anyway, one fate point is almost certainly too cheap. Actions are a big deal.

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2011, 03:07:50 AM »
Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?

Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)

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Offline Tallyrand

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2011, 04:09:49 AM »
Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?

Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)

But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.

Offline toturi

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2011, 04:12:30 AM »
But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.
Sloth Man probably would get a Compel to be slothful.
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 04:20:17 AM »
But outside of the slight different in movement distance none of that has anything to do with the character and Sloth Man could pull of the same trick if his player decided to describe it as such.

A fast character gets a bonus to the roll to overcome barriers between zones, and will likely have at least one aspect that can be invoked for a bonus on the basis that all of that action will be easier for someone who can move faster.  They also are more likely to receive a bonus to the attack-modified-by-athletics both from receiving a bonus to athletics and having a better justification simply for having a high athletics.
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Offline noclue

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 05:58:15 AM »
Does anyone else agree that this is a problem? 

Not really, no. If someone wants to be faster than other folks, they should spend some refresh.

Offline Howl

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2011, 07:57:35 AM »
Do you really only get one action?
Or is it that you only get one ROLL?

Sure, you can have your character stand still, fire one bullet from his fully-automatic high-powered assault rifle, and call it a day (make a Guns attack against an enemy)...
...
OR...you can somersault over the heads of a dozen ghouls, your assault rifle blazing, kick off the wall of the alley they're likely now cowering in, and land, triumphant, on the roof of the building opposite (zone-wide spray attack against an adjacent zone modified by athletics with a supplemental action to move to a third zone adjacent to the other two - overcoming a significant barrier, no doubt)

You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D
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Offline toturi

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2011, 09:43:26 AM »
You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D
Eh? I have never played D&D to such levels that my character had multiple attacks, apart from CRPGs based on D&D.

But in other game systems where I had characters with multiple attacks, combat was short and brutal. One of the fastest combat I recall was against a horde of zombies with the Mirumoto trained Hida making multiple attacks a turn.
With your laws of magic, wizards would pretty much just be helpless carebears who can only do magic tricks. - BumblingBear

Offline Tallyrand

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2011, 11:31:39 AM »
Not really, no. If someone wants to be faster than other folks, they should spend some refresh.

Oh, without a doubt, the problem is that currently there is no way to spend refresh on this.

Offline Tallyrand

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2011, 11:34:41 AM »
You get awesomness points. I have no problem with having only one attack per turn. It speeds thing up. That always bothered me in d&d, you have four players and each player has about 4-5 attacks(or even more) and in that case combat lasts for hours and hours... Fate is simple and fun,and you can do things you couldn't do in d&d :D

There is certainly a balance that must be reached, otherwise combat does bog down with multiple attacks.  Honestly I'm just looking for some well balanced ideas on how to allow for say one or two characters in a group of 5 to have two actions a round.

For villains I find this very easy to balance, I just create two guys and then put them both in the same body, I'd just really like to find a balanced way to do this for players and I'm drawing a complete blank.

Offline Tsunami

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »
How about allowing people with speed powers to make spray attacks/maneuvers regardless of what weapon they are using.

Maybe something like:
Inhuman Speed: Spray attacks allowed, Bonus of +1
Supernatural Speed: Spray Attacks allowed, Bonus of +2
Mythic Speed: Spray Attacks allowed, Bonus of +3

I suppose this would increase the refresh cost of speed powers by -1 refresh.

Balancing would have to be tested of course.

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Combat Speed
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2011, 01:03:12 PM »
My group never really experiences a problem with this. We're very clear that the characters in the game are built to reflect how a narrative unfolds, not to reflect a simulation of their actual abilities. So the reason The Flash and Sloth Man get to both have the same mechanical number of actions, regardless of description, is because the story is about how the two work together as a team, not about how The Flash takes out 6 thugs while Sloth Man only manages to take down 1.

It's similar to how, when a Conflict starts, you break it up into groups like "The Flash vs 3 vampires" and "Sloth Man vs the evil wizard", and even if The Flash beats those 3 vampires before Sloth Man has beaten the evil wizard, he can't interfere, because his part of the story for that Conflict was about him fighting the vampires. Fighting the evil wizard, at that point, is Sloth Man's part of the story.