Language House Rules

[Drachasor]

Anyone make any house rules for languages?  I was distraught to find out how very few languages you can effectively know in the game (my character in my current game is an archaeologist and I'd like to at least know a ton of dead languages).  A Scholarship of 5 giving you just 5 additional languages seems pretty small.  Anyone else find this a problem?

I thought a basic improvement might be to go with the White Wolf system.  Each point in Scholarship doubles the number of languages you know.
Average: 2 languages
Fair: 4 languages
Good: 8 languages
Great: 16 languages
Superb: 32 languages
Optionally one could halve these numbers and treat them as "additional languages beyond your native one".

Of course, if one wanted to get more complicated, one could price various language families together as something cheaper to acquire.  So Latin and its descendants might count as 3 languages give their similarities.

Thoughts?

[Blackblade]

While I do think that languages need to be adjusted, I'm not necessarily sure I'm happy with the way you modify it.  While a linguist/archaeologist/similar profession could have such a high number of languages, I doubt that other high-scholarship individuals, such as doctors, scientists, or engineers, would know so many.

Maybe, make a stunt that changes it from the default language progression to the one you suggested.  Since languages are generally not super-useful in most games, it shouldn't be horribly overpowered.

[zenten]

So is the Linguist stunt not enough?

[Katarn]

So is the Linguist stunt not enough?

I'd say this suffices.  I added a houserule to my game of one backstory language.  However, if they wished to learn a 3rd language, they would need Scholarship: 2 (paying back their "free" language).

For example, I'm working on a Rome campaign.  I permitted a character from the U.S. to speak Italian and English.  He has 0 Scholarship, no linguist.  However, if he wants to learn Latin, he must use the skill advancements to get scholarship: 2 before a 3rd language is added.

Alternatively, you could learn a language by use of a thaumaturgic spell possibly.  Linguist is the simplest (and rule-bound) way to go for a bunch of languages.

[Drachasor]

So is the Linguist stunt not enough?

I think it is extremely overpriced for something that, as Backblade noted, rarely ever matters.  Knowing say 10 languages matters mostly in regards to background fluff and would fairly rarely come up in a game.  Does that really justify 4 scholarship and 3 refresh spent on that?  No, I think not.  And sure, not changing it doesn't necessarily hurt most things, but the current rules are very unfriendly if your character concept includes being well-versed in many languages.  Heck, my grandfather knew 6 or 7 languages and was a doctor, so it isn't like this is crazy either.

While I do think that languages need to be adjusted, I'm not necessarily sure I'm happy with the way you modify it.  While a linguist/archaeologist/similar profession could have such a high number of languages, I doubt that other high-scholarship individuals, such as doctors, scientists, or engineers, would know so many.

Sure, no more than an engineering is going to know a lot about history or medicine, or a mathematician will be great at first aid and English Literature.  Yet that's how Scholarship works.  All the skills cover a lot of ground that doesn't necessarily make sense in the real world.  This is more than good enough for a game though.  Just like 16 languages aren't going to matter that much in a game, one's knowledge of engineering if you are a historian isn't going to matter that much either.

[MijRai]

I think it is extremely overpriced for something that, as Backblade noted, rarely ever matters.  Knowing say 10 languages matters mostly in regards to background fluff and would fairly rarely come up in a game.  Does that really justify 4 scholarship and 3 refresh spent on that?  No, I think not.  And sure, not changing it doesn't necessarily hurt most things, but the current rules are very unfriendly if your character concept includes being well-versed in many languages.  Heck, my grandfather knew 6 or 7 languages and was a doctor, so it isn't like this is crazy either.

4 Scholarship and 3 Refresh spent on it would equal 16 languages, not 10. If you think you don't need to know the languages, don't buy it. As it is, the stunt gives a lot compared to most others. If you want to be the super-linguist, then you should have to pay for it, and make sure your GM knows you want it to matter, so languages do get involved in the story.

[Katarn]

4 Scholarship and 3 Refresh spent on it would equal 16 languages, not 10. If you think you don't need to know the languages, don't buy it. As it is, the stunt gives a lot compared to most others. If you want to be the super-linguist, then you should have to pay for it, and make sure your GM knows you want it to matter, so languages do get involved in the story.

The breakdown:

1+Scholarship score+ (<number of Linguist stunts> * 4)
Ex: Scholarship 3, Linguist 2  (4+ (2*4)= 12 languages
Ex: Scholarship 1, Linguist 3  (2+ (3*4)= 14 languages

If you start choosing useful languages that are plot-related:
*Ghoul
*Latin (for a Rome Campaign)
*Native American (rural tribal U.S. setting)
*Ethnic neighborhood languages

Then the refresh is absolutely worth it.  When you think how hard it is to learn one language, let alone 4, the stunt makes sense.

And your grandad may've known 7 languages, but what was his refresh? 

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree with MijRai and Katarn. Knowing five languages is really quite impressive, and knowing ten is incredible.

But if the languages aren't expected to matter, you shouldn't have to pay for them. I recommend an aspect related to language that could be invoked for effect in the unlikely event that you actually need to speak something unusual. That would give you the flavour that you're after, I think.

[Drachasor]

The breakdown:

1+Scholarship score+ (<number of Linguist stunts> * 4)
Ex: Scholarship 3, Linguist 2  (4+ (2*4)= 12 languages
Ex: Scholarship 1, Linguist 3  (2+ (3*4)= 14 languages

If you start choosing useful languages that are plot-related:
*Ghoul
*Latin (for a Rome Campaign)
*Native American (rural tribal U.S. setting)
*Ethnic neighborhood languages

Then the refresh is absolutely worth it.  When you think how hard it is to learn one language, let alone 4, the stunt makes sense.

Well, first, how are you going to know Ghoul?  You'd have to learn it somewhere.  Beyond that, is it ACTUALLY going to help that much?  Maybe once in a blue moon when there are other alternatives besides knowing the language (even Harry could have done a quick thaumaturgy to find the missing kids during the camp...and it has been worthless elsewhere).  Ancient Etruscan being useful?  Not really, again, if you don't know it and need it, you'll have a translator.  Might be a small boon in very rare circumstances, but generally speaking even the big game-related languages don't amount to much in terms of worth.  And is that really worth penalizing people picking languages for flavor reasons?

Hmm, I will say I thought Linguist was just 2 more languages rather than 4.  It is still quite expensive, however.

And your grandad may've known 7 languages, but what was his refresh?  

He never told me!

I agree with MijRai and Katarn. Knowing five languages is really quite impressive, and knowing ten is incredible.

Knowing 5 languages is not THAT impressive.  Consider the Guiness Book for World Records had a linguist who knew 58 languages (not including many dialects of those languages).  That doesn't make 32 or so languages at 5 seem very silly at all (and certainly if it was half of what I wrote at 16 at Scholarship 5, that's even less silly).

But if the languages aren't expected to matter, you shouldn't have to pay for them. I recommend an aspect related to language that could be invoked for effect in the unlikely event that you actually need to speak something unusual. That would give you the flavour that you're after, I think.

Well, I guess that's my whole problem with the language thing, it seems very expensive even if it shouldn't matter much and is more flavor than anything else -- especially when I could probably just spend a single Enchanted Item slot and know any language I needed to at the particular moment -- I dislike that option for aesthetic reasons.  Perhaps I should just ask my GM about it though.

[newtinmpls]

"If you start choosing useful languages that are plot-related:
*Ghoul
*Latin (for a Rome Campaign)
*Native American (rural tribal U.S. setting)
*Ethnic neighborhood languages"

Okay, first off "ghoul" isn't a language - in the rulebooks it specifies that they speak summerian, which is actually quite thought provoking since in our world there is no continuity with it and so though some scholars can read it, none can speak it. I have a PC who can - but I've also got quite a detailed powerful (and power hungry) magical family as part of the justification.

Next comment - "native american" isn't a language either, any more than "african" would be. There are tons of them. I'm in Minnesota, and there are two logical choices here: Lakota and Anishinabe (and to make it more confusing, I'm using terminology from some native medicine women that I met. Lakota is also called Dakota or Souix and Anishinabe is also called Chippewa).

All that being said, I do think that adding/using languages can be fun when done well, but be careful that the non-linguists aren't bored.

Dian

[MijRai]

To newtin: Dakota and Lakota are different. Don't forget the Nakota either. Souix definitely isn't a language, it is the perjorative name for a branch of the Lakota. The full name is 'little snake'. I lived just outside of Pine Ridge a few years back. You are perfectly correct. There are hundreds of languages covered by 'Native American' and 'African'.

To do tracking magic, you need time, and a part of the thing you are trying to track. Going back, finding some of their hair, blood, or saliva (while knowing it is theirs), then taking the time to do it would take too long. Have you read Changes?  Knowing the language yourself makes a huge difference. For those who have read the latest book,

(click to show/hide)

the Red King uses a translator to make his deal with Harry. Then, because he did not make the deal, the translator did, he was 'technically' in the right and didn't have to do jack.

Long story short; translators lie, mess up, don't know the language that well, or are for some other reason unreliable.

Drachasor, go learn 58 languages. Is it that easy? There is a reason it is a world-record. Some person had the innate talent, the drive to do it, and how many decades of education to do it? A lot.

Languages aren't that expensive in this game. -1 refresh gets you 4 of them, plus whatever you get from scholarship. A linguist would know at least 9, with the cost of 1 refresh, given he has an original, 3 from Good scholarship (or more, even), and a single refresh spent on a Stunt for 4 more.

[Drachasor]

To do tracking magic, you need time, and a part of the thing you are trying to track. Going back, finding some of their hair, blood, or saliva (while knowing it is theirs), then taking the time to do it would take too long. Have you read Changes?  Knowing the language yourself makes a huge difference. For those who have read the latest book,

(click to show/hide)

the Red King uses a translator to make his deal with Harry. Then, because he did not make the deal, the translator did, he was 'technically' in the right and didn't have to do jack.

Long story short; translators lie, mess up, don't know the language that well, or are for some other reason unreliable.

There are hundreds of ways to be sneaky and do technicalities.  Heck, you can even do that without a translator, just insist on a "voice" that speaks for you.  Boom, same thing can happen there.  And Harry in the books has done simple tracking spells with a couple minutes of work, which is actually a lot faster than an unrealistic torture to get information (which would typically take a lot longer and not work).  Again, the benefits of knowing a particular language are very few and far between, much like the benefits of knowing nuclear physics in the game.  Imho, the price of all aspects of physics is a lot cheaper than a few languages.

Drachasor, go learn 58 languages. Is it that easy? There is a reason it is a world-record. Some person had the innate talent, the drive to do it, and how many decades of education to do it? A lot.

And I didn't say it was easy, and I haven't even proposed a system that makes that many languages easy.  Achievable though, yes, which is more than the current system can realistically do.  It's not as hard as is typically thought either, as once you start picking up a few languages, it gets easier to pick up more.

Languages aren't that expensive in this game. -1 refresh gets you 4 of them, plus whatever you get from scholarship. A linguist would know at least 9, with the cost of 1 refresh, given he has an original, 3 from Good scholarship (or more, even), and a single refresh spent on a Stunt for 4 more.

One refresh actually is quite a lot in the game.  Again, I'm not saying what I am proposing is 100% realistic, but it as realistic as the other skill stuff we already through scholarship and the like.

[MijRai]

There are hundreds of ways to be sneaky and do technicalities.  Heck, you can even do that without a translator, just insist on a "voice" that speaks for you.  Boom, same thing can happen there.  And Harry in the books has done simple tracking spells with a couple minutes of work, which is actually a lot faster than an unrealistic torture to get information (which would typically take a lot longer and not work).  Again, the benefits of knowing a particular language are very few and far between, much like the benefits of knowing nuclear physics in the game.  Imho, the price of all aspects of physics is a lot cheaper than a few languages.

And I didn't say it was easy, and I haven't even proposed a system that makes that many languages easy.  Achievable though, yes, which is more than the current system can realistically do.  It's not as hard as is typically thought either, as once you start picking up a few languages, it gets easier to pick up more.

One refresh actually is quite a lot in the game.  Again, I'm not saying what I am proposing is 100% realistic, but it as realistic as the other skill stuff we already through scholarship and the like.

The point I made wasn't that sneaky things couldn't be done, it was that it is easier. Besides, you didn't have a word to say about the other failings of translators. Or perhaps there isn't one to be had? Then, you are royally screwed on their turf surrounded by their people, and you can't even offer them a baby to escape. You also ignored the part of tracking spells where you need something to track with. No connection, no spell.
As far as 'torture' goes, he didn't torture anything when trying to find them. He kicked one in the face when it was trying to evade the question (which didn't hurt it) and said to the ghouls that if he got the kids back, he would let them live. Both of the twins were dead, and that was when he got creative with the OJ.

But what you suggest is easy. Doubling it for every level in the skill gets really high, really fast. Which doesn't make sense. If they are so unimportant, why hand them out like candy? Just avoid it if you don't like it.

If having a larger number of languages is that important to the character, then s/he should cough up the one refresh to add 4 more to his repetoire.

[Drachasor]

The point I made wasn't that sneaky things couldn't be done, it was that it is easier. Besides, you didn't have a word to say about the other failings of translators. Or perhaps there isn't one to be had?

A GM giving you a translator just to give you incorrect translations to screw you over is being a jerk.

You also ignored the part of tracking spells where you need something to track with. No connection, no spell.

Easier to get something to track with than it is to make torture work, honestly.

As far as 'torture' goes, he didn't torture anything when trying to find them. He kicked one in the face when it was trying to evade the question (which didn't hurt it) and said to the ghouls that if he got the kids back, he would let them live. Both of the twins were dead, and that was when he got creative with the OJ. 

He did psychological threats and abuse and threatened to kill them if they didn't help.  That's certainly essentially torture and again that sort of thing typically DOESN'T work.

But what you suggest is easy. Doubling it for every level in the skill gets really high, really fast. Which doesn't make sense. If they are so unimportant, why hand them out like candy? Just avoid it if you don't like it.

If they are relatively unimportant they shouldn't be handed out like candy?  I don't follow your reasoning there.  And yeah, it does get a lot of languages if you get to 4 or 5 scholarship, but it is a fact that learning a new language DOES get easier if you know a lot of other ones.

If having a larger number of languages is that important to the character, then s/he should cough up the one refresh to add 4 more to his repetoire.

There's a difference between something being an important bit of fluff about a character and something being really important as far as the game goes regarding characters.  For instance, if you have 10 brothers and sisters, you don't need to spend refresh to have them, because that's not that important to how the game works (even if it could potentially come in handy).  Languages, honestly, are a lot like that.  In fact, even in the books, Harry knowing languages only actually helps him ONCE over the course of 12 novels.  He could avoid problems with his crappy latin by having someone speak for him any time (people have volunteered) -- I imagine he's getting fate points in game mechanics by looking like an idiot.  He didn't need to know Ancient Etruscan for the White Court as he had someone there ready for him.  It only helped modestly with the ghouls --

(click to show/hide)

really didn't help at all since the people were already dead.

  So no, languages really aren't that big of deal....unless you decide you'd like to have a character that knows a lot of languages for fun..in which case it is actually rather difficult to do this without magic.

Honestly, I find it rather perverse that one could make a magical item for a quarter of a refresh that lets you handle any language, but if you want to know a half dozen languages you need to spend a whole refresh and if you want to know over 10 you'll need to spend two refresh.  That really is NOT worth it.  Don't get me wrong though, it's perfectly understandable why it is like this in the rules.  Languages are such a minor thing they probably just tacked on something quick and dirty.  Overall though, the White Wolf system (either going 1, 2, 4, 8, 16 extra languages or 2, 4, 8, 16, 32 total languages) seems like a better way to go.  Enables more character concepts and really doesn't do any harm and again it is just as realistic as the other uses of scholarship, craftsmanship, or many other skills.

[crusher_bob]

How about changing the linguist stunt to something like:

Linguist
You know a lot of languages.  If it ever becomes important to know a language, as long as you can justify knowing it, you can spend a fate point to have knowledge of that language.

Keeping track of what languages you've already spent fate points to know is left as an exercise for the player.  And no, you can't spend your fate points just before your refresh rolls around to 'stock up' on known languages; you have to spend the fate point when the language shows up.

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And it's brother:

Street-lingual
It's been joked that almost everyone on earth speaks 'American Dollar' and you know that language very well.  You can make yourself understood in any language well enough to transact simple commercial exchanges.