Author Topic: Vehicles In Combat  (Read 6214 times)

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 09:57:21 PM »
Look, I'm glad that you guys feel you can do without such rules. And I know about the existence of horse stats.

But that isn't what this thread is for. You can always maneuver for aspects related to this or that circumstance. I'm trying to go a step beyond that.

So please, no more comments about how I should give up with this approach. I'm looking for feedback on the rules I posted and other suggestions. Not "do something else".

Sorry if that sounded tetchy.

EDIT: Kommisar posted while I was writing this. I haven't actually used this yet. I came up with this because I figured that a vehicle with multiple people could have a division of labour system where one person moves for the whole group, and it kinda snowballed from there.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 10:03:25 PM »
For examples, check out what I've already posted.

Do you mean what you post in general, or is there some kernel in this thread we can work from? We want to help, but as Komissar said, we're having trouble figuring out how because your needs seem (to us) to contradict.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2011, 10:07:23 PM »
Sorry. I'm talking about things like "sprint as a supplemental action" "Driving restricts all skills" "all characters move with the driver" and "one free tag". They aren't modifiers, but they do modify things.

Does that help?

Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 10:14:23 PM »
Sure! Here are my thoughts so far, based on your initial ideas:

Vehicles have armour ratings in addition to weapon ratings.

•   Horse or most other mount animals: Armour:1 vs melee
•   Bicycle or Motorcycle: no armor
•   Sports Car: Armour:1 vs almost everything
•   Van, station wagon, large car: Armour:2 vs almost everything
•   Armoured car: Armour:3 vs almost everything
•   Tank or APC: Armour:4 vs everything

Vehicle Aspects: Being in a vehicle or mounted is an automatic, free Aspect which can be tagged once for free. Subsequent tags cost a Fate Point. Players can use Declarations to add additional Aspects or a Gun to a vehicle.

Zones: Vehicles, by default, have one zone, and a Zone Border equal to the Armour rating. Except for horses, you cannot directly target an occupant within that Zone unless you are either in the same Zone, or overcome the Armour rating with your Weapons or Guns roll. Large vehicles, such as boats and cargo vessels, can have multiple Zones, and depending on circumstances, you cannot cross from one Zone to another without overcoming the Zone Border, unless there is a specific Aspect you can tag to allow easy access.

Weapons: personnel on a vehicle use their own Weapons or Guns; vehicles with an on-board Gun allow a user to use their own Weapons score. Effective ranged combat requires cooperation between the driver and any passengers, so everyone's Guns skill is Modified by the Driver's Driving Skill (good drivers are effective at setting up shots for their gunners, while bad drivers jerk and change course at inconvenient times).

Movement: A driver can move one zone with no action or sprint (using Driving, Athletics or Survival) with a supplemental action.

Defense: Driving should be usable as a defense when in a car, and Athletics or Survival when on a horse.

Other Skill Checks: Passengers using a Skill check in a moving vehicle are not considered to be taking a supplemental action, and are not penalized for the movement, except for a rider on a horse or other animal.  That said, almost any Skill roll which involves hand-eye coordination will be Restricted by the driver's Driving skill (especially if the Driver is trying to attack while driving). Certain skills may be Modified instead by the driver's Driving skill, getting a +1 or -1 based on relative ability: Guns, when used to attack passengers in or on another vehicle, benefits from a savvy driver's coordination, but likewise suffers from a poor driver's untutored driving.

Vehicle Skills: Vehicles can have stats just like a character does.
•   Maneuverability: A vehicle’s Maneuverability reflects its speed and handling. It Modifies a driver’s Driving skill. For attacks on the vehicle, it works in reverse: the vehicle’s Maneuverability is Modified by the Driving skill of the driver. Otherwise this is like the Athletics skill. 4 is suitable for a motorcycle or sports car, 3 is for a regular car or truck, 2 is for a van, lorry, or light cargo vehicle, while 1 and lower are for a heavy cargo vehicle, armored tank, or construction vehicle.
•   Endurance: A vehicle’s Endurance determines its Stress track, and its resistance to Hexing or other attempts to disable the vehicle. 1 is suitable for a Motorcycle, 2 is for a sports car, 3 is for a regular car, van or truck, 4 and higher are for armoured cars, cargo vehicles, construction vehicles, lorries, etc.
•   Might: a vehicle’s Might determines its ability to carry or tow personnel and cargo. Figure the carrying capacity as 20 times the equivalent Might of a human. 1 is suitable for a Motorcycle, 2 is for a sports car, 3 is for a regular car, 4 and higher are for cargo vehicles, trucks, etc.

Mounted Animal Skills: When you don’t want to provide full stats for a mount creature, you should still determine the following skills.
•   Maneuverability: A mount’s Maneuverability is functionally the same as its Athletics skill. For attacks on the mount, it works in reverse: the animal’s Maneuverability is Modified by the Driving skill of the rider.
•   Endurance: A mount animal’s Endurance determines its Stress track, and works just like any other creature’s Endurance.
•   Might: A mount animal’s Might determines its ability to carry or tow personnel and cargo. Horses usually have Inhuman Strength, while other Mounts may have Supernatural or even Mythic Strength.

Weapons:
Animal Mounts: Trained warhorses or other combat-ready mounts have the equivalent of the Claws power (Weapon:2), usually enhanced by Inhuman or greater Strength.

Ramming a Pedestrian: A vehicle in motion used to ram a pedestrian acts as Weapon:5 by default (except motorcycles, which are Weapon:2), and use the driver’s Driving skill to determine a successful attack. The driver can sacrifice 2 shifts to affect every pedestrian in a Zone, or split up the attack as a Spray attack to be more precise about which opponents are struck. Common sense should determine how precise such an attack should truly be. Parked vehicles which are used to strike a pedestrian are just a Weapon:2, and use the driver’s Driving skill to determine a successful attack.
Optional: for added variety, use a vehicle’s Might and Maneuverability skills to Modify, Restrict or Enhance the Driving skill depending on whether or not you rule speed and mass to be a benefit or liability.

Ramming Another Vehicle: Against other vehicles, a vehicle’s Armour rating determines its Weapon value (minimum Weapon:1), unless it has been weaponized with additional Aspects, such as Spikes. Direct vehicle-to-vehicle ramming attacks are resolved by a contested roll between the Driving skill of the two drivers, Modified by each vehicle’s Maneuverability. Successful attacks deal Weapon:X damage against the Vehicle, reduced by its Armour rating.

Mounted Weapons: Additional Weapons mounted to a vehicle can be Declared with Resources, Contacts or other appropriate Skills checks.  Mounted Weapons can range from Weapon:1 for minor inconveniencing effects like Dart Guns or Spikes, to military-level Weapons as high as 3, 4 or even 5. “Melee” Vehicle Weapons like Spikes use the Driving skill of the driver, modified by the vehicle’s Maneuverability. Ranged Vehicle Weapons like Machine Guns, Rocket Launchers, Grappling Hooks and similar Weapons use the Guns skill of the gunner, Modified by the Driving skill of the driver.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 01:15:32 AM by devonapple »
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Offline Kommisar

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 10:17:33 PM »
I've actually ran a car chase in my game.

I established the interior of each car as a zone that included the car itself.  

I then established zones for behind the chasing vehicle, 3 zones between the two vehicles, and in front of the lead vehicle.  Oh, and I added in sidewalk zones for possible fun and trouble.  Each zone, I said, was roughly a car length in size.

I established which of the PCs was driving the Boston Themed 70's rock-god van and off we went!

Some spells were slung, hexxing checks were made (and passed), some gun fire was exchanged (I gave the van an armor rating of 2 with 6 stresses and an extra minor consequence and the Fiat an armor of 2 and 4 stresses), and eventually the PCs in the van got away after the driver made her opposed driving check by 6 shifts.  She ended up using two maneuvers of her own backed by a spell maneuver that iced the zone between the two cars.

As for gun fire, I ruled that the Russian Mobsters in the Fiat could not specifically target any of the PCs since they could not see them well.  So, any attack that got through the armor value of the van would randomly strike someone (or not).   Oh, and armor value of the vehicles included, in my mind, the possibility of deflecting or fracturing rounds.

With this set up, technically, no one was crossing zone boundaries.  But, it was a very specific situation but worked well for a chase.  If the mobsters wanted to close with the PCs, they had to beat a block against crossing the zone boundary established by the driver making a drive skill roll.  Essentially an opposed skill check.

Add - Ohhh, I should have thought about modifying skill rolls based on the drivers skill.  I will next time; though their wheel wizard is pretty good.

« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:22:14 PM by Kommisar »

Offline bitterpill

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 10:19:43 PM »
I recon any vehicle armour could be bypassed by shooting through the windows or windscreen with perhaps an exception for Armoured Cars. I would rule it that when attacking via collision you should take damage equal to your attack roll minus armour which would get less the bigger the car you used because of the increasing armour rating.  
 

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2011, 10:25:26 PM »
SoF sounds a bit too detailed, but not abhorrently so.

What you have there looks good (at least to me, which isn't surprising since a lot of it is the same as what I thought of).

But I have to wonder why you didn't include anything about staying in the same zone as the driver. Logically, you can't be in the same car on different streets.

The question is now, I think, should passengers have to take the -1 supplemental action penalty when the car moves? And should the driver be able to use his Driving to defend other characters?

EDIT: 2 posts while I was writing. I think that shooting through the windows would be an Invoke For Effect or perhaps an application of Spin. I think that making a better attack roll should not increase the damage you take. And the car chase that Kommisar ran sounds quite cool, but not generally applicable.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2011, 10:25:58 PM »
I recon any vehicle armour could be bypassed by shooting through the windows or windscreen with perhaps an exception for Armoured Cars. I would rule it that when attacking via collision you should take damage equal to your attack roll minus armour which would get less the bigger the car you used because of the increasing armour rating.  

How easy do we want window shots to be, Sanctaphrax?
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 10:28:12 PM »
But I have to wonder why you didn't include anything about staying in the same zone as the driver. Logically, you can't be in the same car on different streets.

Depends on the vehicle. Maybe a tank could have two zones: one for the gun on top, one for the driver and the remaining personnel. A boat could have as few as two zones or several hundred.
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Offline Kommisar

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 10:28:20 PM »
Even standard (and modern) car windshields are fairly tough.  And, they are generally sloped.  So, unless you are throwing some high caliber bullets or close range, there is a chance that a bullet would fragment or deflect on impact.  And a bullet doesn't have to deflect like it would off the chest of Superman to miss the target.  A few degrees might suffice.  Older vehicles made pre-safety glass, though, might just make matters worse for the target.

If you wanted to bypass the armor of a vehicle by targeting a window, I would call it a maneuver to place an Aiming tag of some sort that gives you a +2 on your next shot.  Which, against most civilian vehicles would counter/eliminate the armor.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 10:33:07 PM by Kommisar »

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2011, 10:30:07 PM »
Kommisar's approach to window shooting sounds good.

As for zones, I think that we can all agree that all passengers move with the vehicle and must be inside it, right? They aren't really passengers otherwise.

Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2011, 10:32:42 PM »
As for zones, I think that we can all agree that all passengers move with the vehicle and must be inside it, right? They aren't really passengers otherwise.

For the sake of completion, I added it and other notes to the writeup (see above).
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Offline Kommisar

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2011, 10:40:32 PM »
I would, and have, ruled that the passengers do not get penalized for a supplemental action for the movement.  Just does not make much sense to me.  Modifying certain skill rolls using the drivers Drive Skill does.  Shooting, modified.  Lore check... not so much.  Use common sense here.

As for my chase example, I wrote that up just as an example of a different approach for something like that.  A demonstration of how flexible the rules can be and work with different approaches to the same set up.

Offline Imp

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2011, 11:19:12 PM »
What about using the car as a weapon... such as "run'em down" type attack.

would the speed plus size determine the weapon value of the vehicle?
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Offline devonapple

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Re: Vehicles In Combat
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2011, 11:28:40 PM »
What about using the car as a weapon... such as "run'em down" type attack.

would the speed plus size determine the weapon value of the vehicle?

They have rules for that already - I think it is weapon:4 or weapon:5.
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