Magical Creation and an Alternate Summoning System

[Sanctaphrax]

Interesting point there. I guess we could add another factor to determine complexity. We could call it Behaviour or Control, and it would cover both this issue and devonapple's earlier question about a non-defect way to represent demonic drawbacks.

You get animal intelligence, no initiative, and rudimentary order-following for +0 complexity. For a little extra complexity, you could get human intelligence, independant action, and perfect obedience (the ability to control the summon like a second PC). For a little less complexity, you could get literal mindlessness, perverse initiative, and flawed obedience (either exploiting loopholes, misunderstanding instructions, or just plain disobeying from time to time).

So, does this sound good to you? And what sort of cost do you think would be appropriate?

[devonapple]

I did kinda like the Defect mechanism, though it is probably giving stats to something the GM should just decide for dramatic purposes.

Are we still talking about Constructs (Conjured or otherwise), or are we edging into Summoning? I feel like there are still a few variables which got released and I want to make sure we are on the same page.

[UmbraLux]

Are we still talking about Constructs (Conjured or otherwise), or are we edging into Summoning? I feel like there are still a few variables which got released and I want to make sure we are on the same page.

From a system mechanics point of view, is there a difference?  Should there be a difference?

In the interests of simplicity I'd recommend keeping the same system mechanics for any entity gained via thaumaturgy - whether crafted from physical parts, created from ectoplasm, called as an ally, or summoned and bound.  The differences are profound as far as the story goes but not mechanically. 

[devonapple]

From a system mechanics point of view, is there a difference?  Should there be a difference?

In the interests of simplicity I'd recommend keeping the same system mechanics for any entity gained via thaumaturgy - whether crafted from physical parts, created from ectoplasm, called as an ally, or summoned and bound.  The differences are profound as far as the story goes but not mechanically.  

Insofar as the system mechanics are supposed to support the story more than the crunch, there should be some difference. We do want mechanics, but we should try to align them with the potential story impact. Ultimately, these things are limited by our imagination, so it comes back down to three questions:

1) What do we get? Powers, skills, ally, etc.
2) How much do we pay? Shifts, stress.
3) How likely will this cause plot complications? Things like the Defects, Demonic Agendas, and other sources of drama.

Spending 23 shifts on a Construct is a different story than spending the same on a Demon or a Troll. They could all look the same on paper, with similar powers, but their Aspects and the GM's take on each one's agenda and attitude will differ widely.

If it makes sense that any Conjured or Summoned option is roughly balanced between "What do we get?" and "How likely will this cause plot complications?" then I would be happy to make everything cost the same, get back to the story, and trust the GM and players to work out the drama between themselves. I feel like I'm spinning my wheels, and I'd be happy to get back on firm land with this so we can get a nice system to use. I appreciate all of your help!

[UmbraLux]

Spending 23 shifts on a Construct is a different story than spending the same on a Demon or a Troll.

Yes, there are profound differences in the resulting story.  However I'm not convinced the mechanics need to differ.  Compare a Clockwork Mage to a Demon Binder as each sets about putting together or acquiring a new servant...

Our Clockwork Mage is going to spend time inscribing Symbols of Animation on the Individually Crafted Brass Gears he had special ordered.  He's going to build his Molten Brass Circle and surround it with Symbols of Unity and Coal Gathered from a Foundry.  He'll hire some thieves to steal some Wire from a Robot Factory.  Then he gathers all his ingredients in the circle and takes the time to Place Each Gear Perfectly. 

Meanwhile, the Demon Binder is building a Circle of Blood and gathering Candles Discarded by a Church upon which he scribes Runes of Binding and Obedience.  He'll steal a Corrupted Symbol of Life from a doctor working for the mob and research the Demon's Name.  Finally he'll place a Token of Pain in the circle as an offering and take care to Pronounce the Name Exactly.

The difference in stories is profound.  Yet mechanically, both have simply maneuvered to set up seven aspects for their given rituals.  That's where the story is!

[Sanctaphrax]

Wow, those are nice aspect ideas.

Anyway, I don't see any reason to use different rules for constructs and summons. I'm not opposed to the idea, I just don't see the point.

I wasn't suggesting getting rid of the defect system. I still like that. But defects don't model some things very well. Things like positive initiative and easy control would be included in the Behaviour factor, as would rules for simply summoning something and setting it free.

I think that Behaviour might be better modeled as a complexity multiplier than as an adder, just like quantity.

[devonapple]

Alright, so we go for Multipliers - how is this:

Behavior Index:
Robot (x1.25 cost) - obeys commands, no free will or initiative, but no surprises either.
Thug (x1.5 cost) - can be directed, some free will, but requires attention to keep in line.
Animal (x1 cost) - can be directed, but unsuited for certain tasks; untrained and instinctual.
Specialist/Lieutenant (x1.75 or x2 cost) - free willed, relatively independent; can be given complex tasks or command others.

How's this for a start?

[Sanctaphrax]

Robot seems like a x1 modifier to me. I would feel a bit bad charging extra for mindless obedience.

The others look good.

Behaviour Index (Part 2):
Uncontrolled (x0.5 cost) - does what it pleases, which probably isn't what you want it to do.
Disloyal (x0.75 cost) - can be directed, but won't obey properly. Either looks for loopholes or simply lacks any intelligence at all. Requires micromanaging.
Super Robot (x2 cost) - obeys instinctively, can be commanded like a second player character.

How's that? Is there anything I missed?

[devonapple]

Robot is supposed to imply no complications. Simple and reliable. Zombies would be a good example. Reliability should be a bonus.

So would only one of these modifiers count? Or do you envision combining any? How much math are we making folks do?

[Sanctaphrax]

I don't think that any of the modifiers can be combined.

I suppose that charging a little extra for reliability isn't so terrible. Anyway, I've got two more behaviour levels to add and then I think we'll be set.

Behaviour Index (Part 3):
Single Function Robot (x1 cost) - does one thing only, without free will, initiative, or surprises.
Battle Butler (x3 cost) - perfect obedience, absolute loyalty, entirely independent, will act to help the summoner on its own initiative.

[Drachasor]

I think demon summoning treated the same as constructs is a bad idea.  (If I missed something, my apologies, but that seems to be part of what is going on in the discussion).

All demons have an agenda.  They vary in intelligence and strength, but you aren't going to get a perfect demon puppet.  At best you MIGHT be able to cow it if you are far more powerful than it (but it still might kill you if it gets independent control and gets a chance).  There shouldn't be any certainties when dealing with demons.  I'd have some lore related role in determining the power of the demon you summon (or rather, how ACCURATE you are at determining the power, a failed role might mean it is far more powerful than you expected and could break lose).  Demon summoning should generally be very dangerous unless you are very careful about it and even then you shouldn't be able to have much certainty about what you get.  Harry got a pretty rude awakening about it (as did the Shadowman for that matter).  Control should be done via discipline checks of some sort, I think, perhaps with the ability for a foci to add your check.  Controlling multiple demons would require an "attack" on multiple targets.  Knowing their name would be pretty much a requirement, I'd think.

Constructs are a bit trickier.  I'd lean towards having them cost item slots, with the ability to reduce that cost if they are bound within a particular threshold (potentially being free, though perhaps the strength of the threshold or something like that determines how many it can support).  Still, free roaming constructs would be very tricky to balance, I think.  Same perhaps with demons.  Very tricky as far as players using them.

[UmbraLux]

I suppose that charging a little extra for reliability isn't so terrible. Anyway, I've got two more behaviour levels to add and then I think we'll be set.

Does this still meet your initial expectations?  It seems to be getting close to the same cost (or more in your 'Battle Butler' case) as the system Fred suggested while being more complex.

Resetting a bit, how does this look:

• + max shifts to take out entity
• + one shift per power / stunt point
• + shifts equal to entity's skill cap
• + shifts for duration
• +/- three shifts per quality or defect (one free tag)
• +/- nine shifts per sticky quality or defect (always in effect)

Some things, such as demons, should probably automatically get a Dark Powers are Always Willing to 'Help'...for a Price or an Interprets Everything to fit it's Own Agenda sticky defect...or even both.

That keeps it simple and allows for cheap summoning - at a price.

[Sanctaphrax]

Well, UmbraLux, I have to admit that you have a point. But I can't get behind a system where skill points are free, or one where complexity starts at 23. The system I suggest is indeed more complex, but that isn't necessarily a problem. The complexity is simply a result of taking more into account, and I for one don't mind it.

Then again, these rules are intended primarily as guidelines to help GMs ajudicate summoning. So as long as the two methods return similar results it isn't all that big a deal. So I guess I'll just make a list of summonable/constructable creatures with associated complexities (from both methods) so that we can compare.

PS: I think that qualities and defects should be worth two complexity instead of three. After all, a fate point gives two complexity.

[UmbraLux]

Well, UmbraLux, I have to admit that you have a point. But I can't get behind a system where skill points are free, or one where complexity starts at 23.

Regarding skills, I agree to a point.  That's why I added the skill cap cost.  Regarding complexity / number of shifts, I don't see much difference between starting low and adding multipliers or starting high and reducing cost - either way we appear to be ending up with similar numbers of shifts for similar entities.

The system I suggest is indeed more complex, but that isn't necessarily a problem. The complexity is simply a result of taking more into account, and I for one don't mind it.

I prefer keeping things simple but, you're correct, not everyone will.

Then again, these rules are intended primarily as guidelines to help GMs ajudicate summoning. So as long as the two methods return similar results it isn't all that big a deal. So I guess I'll just make a list of summonable/constructable creatures with associated complexities (from both methods) so that we can compare.

Sounds cool.

PS: I think that qualities and defects should be worth two complexity instead of three. After all, a fate point gives two complexity.

I went with paying three shifts per aspect because that appears to be the base cost of creating a maneuver aspect via spell.  (It is for evocation at least - YS:252.  Thaumaturgy isn't as clear - it sends you on a page turning chase through simple actions to setting difficulty levels.)  Also, I don't necessarily think you should get the same amount out of the spell as you put in.  Entropy affects spells as well as thermodynamics.  

[Sanctaphrax]

Complexities for various summons and constructs, before counting duration, qualities, and behaviour. Complexity with my method is first, complexity with UmbraLux's is second.

Angel: 41/50
Void Revenant: 56/69+ (model does not cover shapeshifters)
Zombie: 16 (assuming a functional skill pyramid)/37
Uberzombie: 26/48
Zombie Triceratops: 34/55
Poisonous Demon: 14/33
Imp: 9/32
Demon Lord: 88/78+ (model does not cover shapshifters)
Demonic Collossus: 51/68
Thug Demon: 24/43
Guardian Statue: 22/46
Zombie Chimera #3: 38/49
Will O' The Wisp: 18/35

Note: all complexities calculated using physical stress track, including armour and extra physical consequences.