Author Topic: Considering some Evocation house rules  (Read 9967 times)

Offline luminos

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2010, 06:19:21 PM »
You've convinced me I've overstated my case.  I'm still sympathetic to the views of the OP, but I don't think its a big enough of a problem to worry too much about. 

Also, I'd kind of like some ideas on how to make a 9 refresh pure mortal effective against a full wizard.
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Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2010, 06:56:09 PM »
High Concept: The Witch Hunter
Trouble: Shoot First, Ask Questions Later
Other Aspects: I Love My Gun and My Country; Are You Feeling Lucky, Punk?; Nothing Like the Smell of Napalm in the Morning!; Experienced Gunsmith; Expert Marksman

COST   POWERS
-1   Duel Wielding (Pistols)
-1   Maverick with A Gun (Pistols)
-1   No Pain, No Gain
-1   Fleet of Foot
-1   Too Fast to Hit
-1   Demolitions Training
-1   Hand Eye Coordination
-1   Swift and Silent
-1   Gunsmith

SKILLS
5   Guns, Craftsmanship
4   Alertness, Athletics
3   Endurance, Stealth
2   Discipline, Intimidate, Empathy
1   Presence, Deceit, Conviction

Stress: P OOOO M OOO S OOO +1 Mild Physical Consequence
Armor: Bullet Proof Vest (Armor: 2)
Equipment: Two Smith and Wesson Model 500 Revolvers (Weapon: 4, see Below), Grenades (Weapon: 4), Flash Bangs (Applies a zone wide sticky aspect "Im BLIND!")

Maverick With a Gun: You are extremely competent with one type of gun (pistols, rifles, shotguns, etcetera, you choose one), you gain a +1 bonus to all guns rolls when using that weapon.

Gunsmith: Like Car Mechanic, but for Guns, specifically pistols, +1 bonus on any other type of gun.

This guy uses Craftsmanship to apply aspects to his two Smith and Wesson Model 500 revolvers (these babies shoot a 50 caliber round with a 10" barrel). He routinely applies three aspects to them, one is "Perfectly Maintained", the other is "Hand Made Ammo", and another is "Perfectly Aligned Barrels" or some such (I don't know much about guns, so Im just making guesses for applicable aspects on the weapons). He can Freetag each of these once per scene, possibly once per gun, but I think that is stretching it.

They are weapon 4 (He uses hand made ammo, and it is more effective than the average round, so Im upping the weapon rating from 3 to 4).

Duel Wielding his pistols, he attacks with a +7 to Hit, and at Weapon: 6, before free tagging the aspects on his pistols and using a maneuver like "In My Sight"

He has at least two fate points to start any given scenario with. So lets total all this awesome and see how badly he can shoot a wizard, with a pistol.

Invoking the aspects "I Love My Gun and My Country" and "Expert Marksman", Tagging the aspect "In My Sight" (granted by a maneuver, this is), and free tagging the aspect "Perfectly Aligned Barrels", he adds +8 to his Guns roll, so he rolls 4dF+15 using Weapons: 6. Lets say our wizard has about a 3 in athletics, and he rolls a 7 total. The Witch hunter is going to roll a 0 on the attack. 14 Physical Stress, the wizard needs to take a Mild, a Moderate, and a Severe, and fill up his second stress box.

Now, the witch hunter can of course do this via an ambush, in which case the wizard is taken out unless he also takes a Extreme Consequence. If the wizard rolls say, a -4 and the Witch Hunter rolls a 4 he'll still be taken out.

Also the witch hunter is skilled with explosives, and can use them to blow up the wizard, which is kind of neat, he has flashbangs and grenades too, and can move and use the total defense  option to escape if the wizard gets the tip off, running away with +7 Defense rolls.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 07:08:02 PM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline Belial666

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2010, 08:31:23 PM »
Given half a chance, a wizard can hex the gun. That's auto-ruining it for anything modern.


So use a Zeliska 60 caliber gun. Not only does it fire 60 caliber bullets that have three times more energy than a .45 (weapon 4) but it's a damn old gun.

Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2010, 08:37:15 PM »
If he tries to hex the gun, the guy can always invoke "Expert Gunsmith" and freetag "Perfectly Maintained", and roll a discipline (maybe craftsmanship?) to defend versus the hex.


-edit-

Well, the gun is a revolver, so thats old school enough, and not overly complicated like say, an automatic, Im gonna say its going to take at least a 7 strength hex to keep a revolver from working, and we'll consider "Perfectly Maintained" as a complication on the required hex value, bringing it to a 9.

Quote from: Your Story page 258, 5 Strength Hexes
Even cars without electronics under the hood start to have problems—if it was on the road starting in 1950, there may be some trouble, with a few notable excep- tions. Some smaller firearms may be affected, though conceptually simple ones still work pretty well, at least for a time. Older automatic weapons may malfunction.

Quote from: Your Story page 258, 7 Strength Hexes
If it’s from the Twentieth Century, it’s probably broken. The late Nineteenth Century’s tech is also prone to troubles. Simple guns may stop working at inopportune moments. Even steam-powered stuff may experience sudden failure.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:43:23 PM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline Belial666

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2010, 08:48:11 PM »
That's for involuntary tech failure. Consider a wizard intentionally trying it...

Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2010, 08:49:41 PM »
No, thats not for involuntary failure, thats for deliberate hexing, I pulled that bit off the chart for deliberate hexing. The chart says "Deliberate Hexing Table". It would be handled as an evocation attack with the shifts of power being the strength of the hex. Im saying that to hex a revolver like that you would have to do a 9 shift hex, on the fly, taking mental stress, and rolling control without any focus or specialization benefits.

Which means that your average 5 conviction/5 discipline wizard is going to have to roll 4 +1s, to pull it off.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2010, 08:51:50 PM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline Belial666

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2010, 09:05:09 PM »
Whoops, wrong chart.

Problem is, against a smart wizard you may still fail Instead of having a 5-shift block against your attack roll in his protective item, he's going to have a 5 shift block against your perception. I.e. a veil that displaces his image or makes him invisible or whatever. It doesn't matter how high your attack is-only your perception.

For Air or Water, he gets a 5-shift escape defense. You attack him, he gets an athletics 5 instant sprint effect that puts him beyond your range or around a barrier.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2010, 09:29:27 PM »
Yeah, hexing guns is tough. Harry wouldn't be nearly as worried about them if it wasn't.


More generally: Wizards are not unbalanced, IMO. Too much of their required Refresh loss is of no use in combat (Thaumaturgy, except for Item Slots, and The Sight). That does leave -4 or -6 Refresh of direct combat abilities they can have...but even assuming those are more effective Refresh for Refresh than other such abilities 7 or 8 points devoted to such things will still pull a devoted combatant ahead.

I can, for example, casually build an Epic (+7) swordsman who can use Weapons for either defense or Weapon: 7 attacks for about -6 Refresh. That's right on par with about as nasty as a truly focused combat Wizard (who max out at 8 or 9 shift Evocations). He'd also likely be on par with a Wizard in out of combat activities. Heck, you could buy him Thaumaturgy.

Now, characters who take Evocation without Thaumaturgy or the Sight can be a bit more problematic, but even they are beatable, though only with difficulty if you allow them really hardcore defensive Enchanted Items (which I'd advise against).

Offline Bubba Amon Hotep

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2010, 10:27:46 PM »
High Concept: The Witch Hunter
Trouble: Shoot First, Ask Questions Later
Other Aspects: I Love My Gun and My Country; Are You Feeling Lucky, Punk?; Nothing Like the Smell of Napalm in the Morning!; Experienced Gunsmith; Expert Marksman
[SNIP]
This guy uses Craftsmanship to apply aspects to his two Smith and Wesson Model 500 revolvers (these babies shoot a 50 caliber round with a 10" barrel). He routinely applies three aspects to them, one is "Perfectly Maintained", the other is "Hand Made Ammo", and another is "Perfectly Aligned Barrels" or some such (I don't know much about guns, so Im just making guesses for applicable aspects on the weapons). He can Freetag each of these once per scene, possibly once per gun, but I think that is stretching it.
[SNIP]

Love this concept.  I could see him with .50 Dragoons.



Image shows a Cased pair of 2nd model Colt Dragoon revolvers, European-style engraved,  ivory grip plates ornated with a gold inlaid monogram, powder flask of solid silver made by the goldsmith Wilson & Co. Case of rosewood and copper alloy. Manufactured in 1849 for JJ Van Syckel, wine trader in Philadelphia and local celebrity.

1849, Monogramed, Gold Etching, and ivory grips lots of love went into making those pistols.  I can see them surviving even the nastiest of hexes.

Offline blues.soldier

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2010, 06:26:14 PM »
Two easy ways to level the playing field against uber-optimized spellcasters:

1) Include opponents who fight with different "weapons" in battle-- monsters/mortals who use mental/social attacks in the same combat as physical ones. Basically, hit them where they aren't optimized. Nicodemus could be seen as doing this, taunting Harry before or during combat. Fill up his consequences with Social/Mental taggable aspects and keep him from using them to fuel spellcasting.

2) The Evocator's "Three Pump Chump" weakness is well-known. Bad guys (especially smart, plan-ahead types who have a chance to learn the PC's capabilities) will send a couple expendable enemies in and let the Wizard think it's the real attack. then the second wave of heavier-hitters comes in when the Evocator has already played himself out. Don't use this too often as it can become a "screw you, player, I'm the GM!" kinda button, but once in a while to really mess with the player's super-munchkin is a great thing.
"What ever you do, do it for love. If you keep to that, your path will never wander so far from the light that you can never return.”--Uriel

Offline Victim

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 06:12:16 AM »
Okay, we've seen some of the same arguments repeated here.

1.  Grapples: How does a grapple work?  Well, it's basically a block with an extra requirement (that you burn a tag or invoke), but with extra goodies you can inflict as a supplemental action.  A grappled person can still attempt any action to go against the block though, and attacks or spells can break the grapple as well.

So how is that bad for wizards?  Well, it's not.  A spellcaster who acts with 10-11 (like the character in my first post) will be able to blow through even an 8 power block - and thus grapple - reliably.  And with the need to tag for effect instead of bonus, a 6 power grapple seems more likely (5 Might+Inhuman Strength).  Of course, that's with a focus item.  Maybe our grappler uses his supplemental action to impose a Disarmed maneuver to make the wizard drop his blasting rod.  But then the odds are actually even!  Our wrestling monster drops by 1 from the minor action to 7, and the wizard's control sans item is also 7.

The idea that a grappled wizard is totally screwed, while common in the fiction, is not really supported by game mechanics.

A grapple+disarm strategy will also be extremely effective against characters with primary Guns or Weapons.  They won't just lose a bonus when disarmed, they might lose the ability to apply their top relevant skill at all!

2.  Mental attacks screw wizards.

I'll admit that, for their conviction and discipline ratings, a character using evocation is rather vulnerable because they're using up that stress track for their own powers too.

However, that's for characters of the same discipline and conviction skills - which will be quite high for the combat evoker, since those skills determine the power of their magic.  Other characters have less of a reason to buy discipline, so it will probably be lower.  Hence, mental attacks are more likely to hit those characters, and then will hit by a larger margin (thus doing more damage) when they do it.

Someone mentioned a Weapon 4 mental attack.  Let's say our mental attacker gets a 4 on its attack (a +0 roll, with accuracy equal to power).  A 5 Conviction, 4 Discipline wizard defends at 4 from Discipline and has 4 mental stress boxes.  The spellcaster has around a 40ish percent chance to avoid the Great mental attack.  He can absorb a glancing hit with his top stress box.  On a defense roll of -1 to -3, he scrapes by with some stress and mild consequence - which his extra Mild Mental slot can take.  Only on a roll of -4 does he need to suffer a Moderate consequence to avoid being taken out. 

A character prioritizing more conventional combat skills (or anything else besides Discipline and Conviction) might end up with something like 2 Discipline and 1 Conviction.  That's a defense of 2, and 3 mental stress boxes.  Weapon 4 versus 3 stress means that all hits, no matter how minor, will inflict a mild consequence.  Against the same accuracy 4, +0 roll, he needs a 6% chance +3 roll to avoid the attack.  At least a moderate consequence will be suffered on a defense up to and including +0.  On a sucky -4, our guy takes 10 damage and thus requires a Mild AND a Severe (or an Extreme) to remain active.

Is getting hit with a mental attack bad for a spellcaster?  Heck yeah.  But it's worse for someone without the mental defense skills.  And buying a Great Discipline exclusively for mental defense is somewhat expensive (unless you're also using it for Feeding Dependency or something as well).  Anyone can get hammered by high power mental attacks.

3.  Ambushes are great.  Yeah, they are. 

In fact, they're so great they work pretty well against everyone.  The vampire with 6 Stealth from Cloak of Shadows has something like a 2 out of 3 chance to get the drop on someone with Great Alertness - which seems like a pretty high skill.  Most characters don't do so well when they only have a Mediocre defense.  It doesn't seem unreasonable to say that the combat evoker is impacted less than other combat characters, since their base defense skill is probably lower.  Shapechanging type characters (eg, Wereforms) may be especially vulnerable with Human Form, or may just need to spend actions to transform so their early rounds are further disadvantaged. 

4.  All combat ability leaves Jack a dull boy...

Well, not really.  We're talking about a skill set defined by the top 3 of Conviction, Discipline, and Lore.  I'll freely admit that Conviction is kind of bad - especially since an evocation using character will be using up those extra boxes.  Having a bigger total stress can help against 3-4 size hits where having the box is the difference between a consequence or not.  But the guy dealing mental stress to himself probably isn't to have more total available boxes compared to other characters.  Discipline is the skill for mental defense, and can also block Intimidate.  Lore covers knowledge of magic, detection of magical stuff (replacing some uses for Alertness), and your basic rituals.  They have some utility in mental and social conflicts, as well as some knowledge uses.  Most of them are more useful outside a fight than a skill like Guns or Fists.

Also, Evocation is a pretty versatile ability.  You can use it to make area or structure attacks like Craftsmanship, create a shield for Athletics, Veil like Stealth, as well as serving as an attack skill.  The Alertness, Fist/Weapon/Gun, Stealth, Might guy who sneaks up on the wizard, attacks, wins initiative and then grapples is more skill intensive.  At Submerged, a 1/3/3/3/3 skill column leaves the evoker with 1 Great skill open, and then all Good to Fair skills for non combat or secondary combat abilities.  The equivalent at a Great skill cap actually leaves you with a few extra points at 25 points.  Even if the powers I've listed in the OP are technically affordable at the lowest starting level, they don't seem especially appropriate, so I'm not going to worry about the skill structure at that level.

A Conv/Lore/Disc skill apex also works well for thaumaturgy or ritual, which often goes with evocation in templates.  That's really expensive in terms of refresh though, even if it does provide a powerful weapon in combat, and versatile toolset out of it.

5.  Cofeekid's gunslinger:

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but: :D

Of course, you fabricated the ability to create freely taggable aspects on your guns out of nothing (unfortunately, adding an arbitrary damage bonus based on expert crafting isn't without precedent).  Declarations about your equipment might be appropriate, but those don't seem like they'd refresh per scene.  And why 3 aspects, not more?  A house rule that grants massive bonuses to equipment attacks actually seems like a bigger change than one that provides a penalty to evocation attacks.  Especially because of 2 major problems: First of all, not all attacks use a weapon, so those attacks couldn't be boosted with gear bonuses. Second, evocation uses equipment.  Why settle for a vanilla magic wand or staff when you can pimp out your blasting rod with cooling vents, a reflex sight, custom grips, an experimental cartridge system, etc? 

Also, you don't have the resources to support a Workshop that could handle even difficulty 3 projects.  But the whole workshop rule seems really stupid anyway; I'm pretty sure we're ignoring it anyway.

I only see one stunt that can boost an attack, so his attack would default to 6, not 7.

Also, a Weapon Focus (effectively) stunt doesn't seem appropriately situational compared to the example attack booster.  It's pretty easy to apply like 90% of the time.  Even if Target Rich Environment is going to apply in 90% of the fights, it will lose utility as you drop enemies and even the odds.  Unless you lose, I guess.  :)

--------------------------------------------

So far, we've been using these rules in 2 sessions with our wizard.  He retooled a bit, dropping to 8 Control, 6 Power and picking up more defensive items.  Now, when he gets in a good hit, he's hitting for about 10 or so, instead of like 16.  It's not like he became a combat lightweight.  I think he also appreciated the ability to cast without stress in our recent zombie apocalypse adventure.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 06:41:03 AM »
1. Yeah, wizards can break grapples, that's hardly the only way to beat them.

2. The big mental attack I can think of is Incite Emotion, which is Deceit + 2, and thus very likely to be attacking at 6 or 7 or so, so it's alot worse for anyone you're attacking...and now that I thik on it, probably as scary offensively as Evocation itself, if not more.

3. True enough, but they really do hurt people without Toughness powers more...and Wizards are very much in that category. Pretty much by definition.

4. That's one or two more than a combat focused character actually needs, and fails to cover actual defense rolls that don't cost you your offensive action.

5. I dont necessarily disagree with most of it, but Grevane actually has a Weapon Focus stunt very explicitly.



Argument #6, which you fail to address, is that the Mental Stress cost of Evocation is actually a rather large down-side to having and using it.

Offline CableRouter

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2010, 06:06:36 AM »
Thats really one of the ways to piss in the wizard's cereal, throw pure mortals at him, and make sure he is aware of the first law consequence. Other people can deal with mortals just fine, wizards? They might have some difficulties.
Mooks with Guns?  Throw up a shield with an item as a free action and zap them with a low power area attack on your turn.  Any decent wizard can take out several zones full of mooks in a single exchange without worrying about killing any of them.

Offline KOFFEYKID

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2010, 06:40:49 AM »
Mooks with Guns?  Throw up a shield with an item as a free action and zap them with a low power area attack on your turn.  Any decent wizard can take out several zones full of mooks in a single exchange without worrying about killing any of them.


You are assuming they are mooks, why, oh why, does everybody assume that a pure mortal has to be a mook? hendricks is not a mook, and he is formidable, Murphy, also not a mook, and also formidable.
5.  Cofeekid's gunslinger:

I appreciate the enthusiasm, but: :D

Of course, you fabricated the ability to create freely taggable aspects on your guns out of nothing (unfortunately, adding an arbitrary damage bonus based on expert crafting isn't without precedent).  Declarations about your equipment might be appropriate, but those don't seem like they'd refresh per scene.  And why 3 aspects, not more?  A house rule that grants massive bonuses to equipment attacks actually seems like a bigger change than one that provides a penalty to evocation attacks.  Especially because of 2 major problems: First of all, not all attacks use a weapon, so those attacks couldn't be boosted with gear bonuses. Second, evocation uses equipment.  Why settle for a vanilla magic wand or staff when you can pimp out your blasting rod with cooling vents, a reflex sight, custom grips, an experimental cartridge system, etc?  

Also, you don't have the resources to support a Workshop that could handle even difficulty 3 projects.  But the whole workshop rule seems really stupid anyway; I'm pretty sure we're ignoring it anyway.

I only see one stunt that can boost an attack, so his attack would default to 6, not 7.

Also, a Weapon Focus (effectively) stunt doesn't seem appropriately situational compared to the example attack booster.  It's pretty easy to apply like 90% of the time.  Even if Target Rich Environment is going to apply in 90% of the fights, it will lose utility as you drop enemies and even the odds.  Unless you lose, I guess.  :)
You dont need resources for a workshop. You need it to have a starting workshop. Your plain jane with resources 0 could roll a +4 on resources and buy a rating 4 workshop. Your character can always cash in a favor from somebody who does have resources to get a good workshop too.

Also, there is precedent for aspects that you can tag for free once per scene, look up addictive saliva. There is a part that talks about getting a free tag on their consequence (which is an aspect) once per scene. Considering that tagging an aspect like "Expertly Crafted" wouldn't make it any less crafted, I felt it was a good place to use the "One Tag per Scene" precedent set forth by the Addictive Saliva power.

Who says attacks that dont have a weapon rating couldn't benefit from aspects. Think of a sniper rifle. Does adding a scope make the bullet more powerful? I think not.

As for the Weapon Focus stunt, it is perfectly fine it provides an always on effect (always on is shifts divided by two, and a stunt provides a 2 shift effect) in a specific case. Normally a Always on effect doesn't need to work in a specific case. So its perfectly rules valid.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 06:42:47 AM by KOFFEYKID »

Offline CableRouter

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Re: Considering some Evocation house rules
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2010, 02:59:41 PM »
You are assuming they are mooks, why, oh why, does everybody assume that a pure mortal has to be a mook? hendricks is not a mook, and he is formidable, Murphy, also not a mook, and also formidable.

Not an assumption since this was what brought it up in the thread.

Quote
9-10 mortal thugs at -1 refresh each with guns or baseball bats. He can't use lethal magic unless he wants or has lawbreaker. And he needs 10 spells which he doesn't have.

But if you're throwing full power anything at the wizard, he can just open up on them; it will take a minimum of 14 stress to take them out of the fight in one hit.  They won't die assuming you don't want that to happen, the winner of a conflict decides what happens to the loser.  The same goes for the mooks too, they're just easier to take out since they stop fighting once they take a consequence.

Impossibly tough characters make the entire concept of automatically "lethal magic" a misnomer in game terms unless you declare that you are/were trying to kill your opponent.  A character drops a hand grenade at their feet and doesn't bother to dodge, meh.  It's a 4 Stress hit, you fill in your 2 stress box and take a mild consequence; you go for burger talk with your buddies about how weak grenades are and you're 100% fine in 30 minutes.  A spell with 4 shifts in power and 2 in area should be no different and no more lethal, than a hand grenade.