Author Topic: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?  (Read 16306 times)

Offline CMEast

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2010, 01:13:45 PM »
Hey EldritchFire, thanks for the reply again. That is exactly the effect I'm looking to create, though it doesn't even have to be Weapon:2, it could even just be Weapon:1. There are many ways to create this effect and this way, as others have mentioned, is a perfectly good way to do it. I could even create it by changing 'fists' to 'weapons' and carrying an actual weapon around. In fact, if I were to create an enchanted item, I could optimise my character for that and make a far more powerful one.

The problem is, I'm trying to create this effect using channelling or ritual only, without using slots or purchasing the claws power, and that's just not in the current rules as far as I can see. The reason why is that I can use channelling or evocation to launch fireballs, throw cars around, catch bullets and cause the earth itself to open up and swallow my enemies. I can also create tiny, ineffectual spells like coloured lights and so forth without any effort. What I can't seem to do is cast small spells that can affect conflicts in small ways unless I treat them as big spells with all of the mental stress costs that entails. This just doesn't make sense though.

It's easy to create a powerful wizard but how can we create weak but fun focused practitioners, those that have small but reliable gifts? We can't. Low conviction means they get a few weak spells before they're out of gas, they get more out of ignoring their magic and just hitting people but I don't think that's how it should work.

In the same way, there seems to be very little use of magic in social conflicts but intimidating someone with eyes of fire or having the sun seem to shine off of you that little bit more is surely possible. However unless you're trying to full-on dominate someone, the spell system is hardly relevant at all. I guess you could argue that it's been designed that way for a reason, but I still don't feel like it matches the 'reality' of the dresden universe. Clever magic users use every trick in the book to get an advantage.

I think I'm gonna give up :) I'll other have to create the character around the rules, ignoring intent and roleplaying, or just create some obnoxious power-char that bulldozes through conflicts and gives the GM nightmares. Thank you though, I'll road test your idea and see how it feels.

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And following on from that (and another long post from me *sigh*), thanks for your time and help DMW. I think your idea is the closest we're gonna get to a purely ritual way to achieve the effect and it does fit the brief but it still doesn't fix the gap in the rules for effects like these. And you're right, unlimited complexity rituals would be broken, I hadn't thought about how it could be abused.

Nevermind, thanks again.

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9. As a standard action, cast a 3 power spell that, using a fate point too, uses one aspect to create a +1 modifier to rolls that match the intent of the spell until the end of the scene, can be countered/dispelled as usual.

Example. So for 1 shift of mental stress and 1 fate point our 'Pyromancer Hottie' (conv 3, disc 3) creates a physical attack spell that makes the tip of her knife grow white hot. For the rest of the scene, when attacking with it she gets +1 to hit and it deals 1 additional shift of stress. When the scene ends, so does the spell.

Example2. At a cost of 1 fate point and 2 mental stress, the 13 year old 'unwitting poltergeist' (conv 1, disc 1) defends himself from the burglar he discovered as he crept downstairs for a snack, small items seemingly throwing themselves at the masked intruder, distracting him as he tries to attack the terrified boy.

(The idea just came to me and I thought, why not post it).

Offline feliscon

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #31 on: June 03, 2010, 01:26:52 PM »
Have you considered what happens when you use the Evocation Spin rule? (Generating spin on a control roll reduces the mental stress of casting by one) With Great Discipline, as long as you have at least Average Lore and Conviction you can make a Weapon:1 rote that costs no stress. Just say you use Fists to hit with it, and voila you have your enhanced punches.

Offline CMEast

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #32 on: June 03, 2010, 03:11:21 PM »
Genius feliscon! I so didn't think of that! That would certainly be usable in most of the examples I've given and would definitely work for my characters numbers. In theory, someone with a discipline of 6 could make themselves a weapon:3 rote which would be a little less balanced, but then any character with that much discipline will be able to throw a lot more damage around than that and so probably wouldn't bother.

One question, where in the book does it state that spin can reduce the mental stress of casting by one? If it does then that's perfect (and it's fair enough, when combined with using it as a rote, that I'm sure it can be house-ruled) as the main issue I had was that weak spells cost stress which meant you could only cast them as often as you could cast stronger spells.

Offline John Galt

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2010, 03:38:54 PM »
Unless Feliscon has a more updated PDF than me, Evocation Spin is a completely house rule.  The only spin rule I can find is for defense rolls and they apply to the person taking the next turn, not to the player themselves.  The spin effect only works on later actions, not the current action your taking.  For fist powers I guess that could work if you use multiple powers in one turn (which makes sense).  You'd still have to take at least one mental stress hit but everything after the first power could be free as long as your rolls are high enough.  If they're all roted, then you don't even need to worry about rolls. 

The way I'd do it is something like, "Eye of the Tiger" which increases your alertness and/or athletics and allows you to use multiple fist attacks in one exchange.  It costs a mental stress hit but it increases your alertness and/or athletics for multiple turns and you can continually use spin generated from subsequent actions to cast low shift powers for free.

Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2010, 03:45:06 PM »
John Galt is quite correct, it's a House Rule, though a reasonable one.

Offline Wordmaker

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 03:55:28 PM »
And good for a magic-heavy game where you want your PCs to be in a high weight division.

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2010, 05:18:05 PM »
I think we've been going about this all wrong. What we need isn't another way to use magic, or a contortion of the enchanted items rules. We need a stunt.

I'm basing this off of Tower of Faith, YS150.

Focused Ki: You gain armor:1 against mental stress that derives from your rotes.

This way, you can have a sub-par Conviction, and a decent Discipline and get away with your magic weapon hands.

For example, you have a Conviction of 2, and a Discipline of 4, with a Lore of 1+ so you can actually have a rote. Your rote is "Ki fists" that is a weapon:2 attack (for the Conviction of 2) that is targeted with discipline. With your focused ki stunt, you absorb (READ: negate) the 1-point stress you would normally take for casting that spell.

It may seem cheezy, but it fits the rules (you are spending 1 refresh to be able to pull it off), and it allows you to still do a hadouken that costs stress when the need arises.

Thoughts?

-EF
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Offline luminos

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2010, 05:20:48 PM »
I think we've been going about this all wrong. What we need isn't another way to use magic, or a contortion of the enchanted items rules. We need a stunt.

I'm basing this off of Tower of Faith, YS150.

Focused Ki: You gain armor:1 against mental stress that derives from your rotes.

This way, you can have a sub-par Conviction, and a decent Discipline and get away with your magic weapon hands.

For example, you have a Conviction of 2, and a Discipline of 4, with a Lore of 1+ so you can actually have a rote. Your rote is "Ki fists" that is a weapon:2 attack (for the Conviction of 2) that is targeted with discipline. With your focused ki stunt, you absorb (READ: negate) the 1-point stress you would normally take for casting that spell.

It may seem cheezy, but it fits the rules (you are spending 1 refresh to be able to pull it off), and it allows you to still do a hadouken that costs stress when the need arises.

Thoughts?

-EF

Fred has stated in the past that stunts shouldn't be used to affect any supernatural powers.  I could see it used as a custom power, but it has severe unbalancing potential, so make sure you discuss it with your group before considering using this.
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 05:23:15 PM »
As luminos says. However, fred's also gone on the record as saying that Armor won't protect against self-inflicted Stress, as that would result in some severe imbalances. I agree with him wholeheartedly.

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 05:50:17 PM »
Fred has stated in the past that stunts shouldn't be used to affect any supernatural powers.  I could see it used as a custom power, but it has severe unbalancing potential, so make sure you discuss it with your group before considering using this.

Ok, I can see that. Couldn't we, then, just make it a new supernatural power? Per YS158, " supernatural powers add can cover actions and abilities that would otherwise be flatly impossible." And we know that powers are " built much like several  mortal  stunts  all  smashed  together, getting two shifts (and maybe a little extra) of effect for every one refresh point they cost."

So focused ki, as a -1 refresh supernatural power, allows rotes to be cast at 1 stress less.

Other than that, I think I'm all tapped out of ideas.

-EF
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Offline luminos

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 05:54:13 PM »
You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?
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Offline Deadmanwalking

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 05:56:55 PM »
You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?

Yeah, anything like that has the potential to be really unbalancing. I'd probably make it at least -3 or so even if I didn't flat-out disallow it.

Offline John Galt

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 06:01:08 PM »
You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?

This is why I like a spin house rule or even a different one; maybe a power that gives a temporary "chi" stress track can be cleared exactly like a hunger stress track (meditation for a turn with a discipline roll) so that those very low shift powers don't have to cost the same as 4 or 5 shift powers do (one mental stress).

I do agree with the original poster that the evocations he's trying to use really shouldn't cost him the same amount of mental stress as a power like fuego would cost him (the lower end 4 or 5 shift version).

Offline EldritchFire

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 06:20:50 PM »
You really think something that lets a character have an infinite use of evocations is a good idea?

Not really, no. However, the OP was looking for a way to do it. I tried to find it. Personally, I'd take claws and human form and call it a day, but that's just me.

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Offline feliscon

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Re: Temporary magical weapons: What's the best way?
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 06:26:05 PM »
John Galt is quite correct, it's a House Rule, though a reasonable one.

Personally I see it less as a house rule and more as an unwritten official optional rule due to the designers comments on it in the forum and because it just makes more sense given the number of times in the books that Harry mentions more controlled spells being more energy efficient and less tiring.

It is most certainly going to be in effect in any game I run.