Author Topic: New Power Levels  (Read 18321 times)

Offline crusher_bob

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2010, 01:28:13 PM »
I think there is something to be gained by separating skill totals and refresh totals.

So for example, skills get broken down to:
20-25: untried or barely trained.
30: new at this
35: mature and untested, or school of hard knocks
40-45 been at this for a while

So that you can generate power levels like:

Refresh 8-10
Skills 20-25
Sample characters at this power level:
Harry at Ragged Angel
Molly
Teenaged insta-wardens
Inari Raith
(click to show/hide)
Fix at the end of Summer Knight?
The Alphas, around Grave Peril?
Possibly the Shadowman
(click to show/hide)

Refresh 6-7
Skills 30-35
Sample characters at this power level:
Hendricks, Marcone’s Enforcer
Binder?
What Elaine pretends to be when Ramirez investigates her
Mort the Ectomancer, around White Night
Agent Tilly
Kravos, From Grave Peril
(click to show/hide)
Some of the cops from SI

Tharios

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2010, 08:58:47 AM »
Bear in mind...only a single Refresh point is gained at only Major Milestones.

Granted, in the game, that will happen with relative Frequency at least once every few years, if not once a year (or more if it's a particularly exciting and eventful).  In most cases, the most powerful supernatural denizens of the Dresdenverse have existed for centuries, millennia, even eons.  Most often with probably very little going on.  When beings have eternity to plan and can wait just as long without consequence, their power gains will be LESS frequent, not moreso.

If anything, at power levels after say...20...there should only be a 1 refresh increase every OTHER power level.

20 Refresh will get you any of the watered-down versions of Senior Council members with room to spare.  Or a stupidly powerful actual ninja ghoul.  By that point, artificially inflating a character's power so steeply before play begins is just ludicrous.  NO ONE spends their entire life in adventure.  Even Han Solo spent most of his time on milk-run smuggling trips or high-stakes Sabacc games.  Think of how much time goes between each novel...and how as the years drag on, sometimes those "dead spots" will span more years or even decades or centuries?

I would figure 15 might be better, since it'll almost get you those Senior Council members, but it's reasonable a group could cover 5 to 10 major milestones at least in a single story arc.

All that said...skills perhaps should continue at the same rate throughout...  Refresh implies an increase in the fundamental POWER of oneself.  Skills are just what you know...which you don't need high adventure to aquire...or normal people wouldn't even have average skills in anything at all.

Maybe after PL 30, skills start to taper off the same as refresh did at 15 or 20.  After all, the more you learn, the less there is to be learned...from a practical study point-of-view anyway.

Frankly...I don't think any being directly encountered in the books would be higher than 50...tops.  By that point, there's so little left to take that you're just going to have a big refresh gap to bank up fate points.  Also, it would give most uber-powered monsters the free-will they're not supposed to have.  While that might be cool for a deeply conflicted PC, it's not intended for NPCs.  If you started a Wizard and got your hands on Seelie and Unseelie magic...they'd each only cost -2 (though, you wouldn't really "need" them, per se).  After a certain point, most combinations of powers are redundant...especially when you get into spellcasting, as obviously many of the uber-baddies do in the novels.  Yeah, I know more powers and stunts will be invented by groups because they're supposed to be...but still, something's gotta give.  By 50 Refresh, you're toeing the line of munchkindom, and on a steady course for game-breakerville.

Now...realistically, you can take as many stunts and powers as you want...it's just that when you go to 0 or less Refresh, you get no more free will.  So, I'd imagine that "monsters" start with 1 Refresh and never get more.  They can acquire power out the wazoo...but they never gain new Refresh, and can only get Fate points from compels.  Honestly, by the time people are pushing that 50 Refresh mark...any more power SHOULD make them lose their free will.  That much power in a mortal or even semi-mortal vessel is just too much.  You can't be a god with free will.  Gods and the like are metaphysical maintenance robots, not people.  And the uber-baddies are like diseases.  Either way, once you get to a certain point, you pick a "side" and that's what your former character is forever stuck with...as you make your new character.

Dunno...just my take on it all.  I just think it's kinda unreasonably greedy to INCREASE the refresh gained at higher PLs.

Offline Korwin

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2010, 09:27:00 AM »
I would figure 15 might be better, since it'll almost get you those Senior Council members, but it's reasonable a group could cover 5 to 10 major milestones at least in a single story arc.

Um you know that Harry has at least 16 Refresh at the end of Small Favor?
(OW page 135)
And he is far away from an Senior Council member
(click to show/hide)

Tharios

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2010, 04:38:41 PM »
Um you know that Harry has at least 16 Refresh at the end of Small Favor?
(OW page 135)
And he is far away from an Senior Council member
(click to show/hide)
Yes, I'm aware of that.  My point is that Harry is in some pretty constant peril at certain times, which is during the novels and gaining Major Milestones.  His entire life will not be spent at such levels of involvement.  Well, ok, HIS might be...but no one else's ever is.  When it comes to artificially advancing a character that far before play even BEGINS, doubling the refresh gain per PL is like starting with 11 superb skills through Mimic Abilities.

He's not that far away from Senior Council...I'd peg those like Gatekeeper and the Merlin at around 30 at most. 
(click to show/hide)

That said, considering how important skill levels are to spellcasting, none of them need more refresh to pop more powerful spells.  They only need one or both of two things...skills high enough to allow for the shifts in power necessary to do the things they do, and/or stress and consequence capacity to soak up the extra.  In fact...as old as most of the Senior Council are, imagine how many refinements they'd have by 30 refresh, which they could reasonably reach at their age...now think about how high their bloody skills would be.  They don't need that much more refresh.  Refresh determines how broad a range of effects you're capable of, but it's skills that determine their strength.  Also...refinements allow you to go a bit beyond your actual skill capacity regarding spellcasting strength...but it's your skill capacity that sets the benchmark anyway.  No matter how many refinements you have, you still want those skills at the absolute top.

Anyway, I'll let it go.  It's only my take on things, and I seem to be alone in my camp.  lol  So, I'm done and out on this one.

Offline Moriden

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2010, 04:44:54 PM »
Quote
You can't be a god with free will.  Gods and the like are metaphysical maintenance robots, not people.  And the uber-baddies are like diseases.  Either way, once you get to a certain point, you pick a "side" and that's what your former character is forever stuck with...as you make your new character.

The end of your story, is the beginning of another s.
Brian Blacknight

Offline Lanodantheon

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2010, 06:54:54 PM »
For higher level games, and to mark advancement I thought our dial should go to 13 or maybe 18.
I am terrible with naems. But, I hope these names and stats are in the ballpark.


Names   Refresh Rate   Skill Points   Skill Cap
Hydrophobic and Proud or Under the Covers   1   10   Fair
Rain Doesn't Scare You or Out of the House   2   10   Fair
Playing in the Tub is Fun or Stuck in Traffic   3   15   Good
Almost Ready to Swim or Nearing the Shore   4   15   Good
King of the Water-park or Walking the Beach   5   20   Great
*Feet in the Water                                           6   20   Great
*Up to Your Waist                                           7   25   Great
*Chest-Deep                                                   8   30   Superb
Out of the Shallows or Into the Deep                   9   35   Superb
*Submerged                                                   10   35   Superb
___________________________________________________________ ________________________________________Previous material
Bottom of the Deep-end or In Need of a Snorkel     11   40   Superb
Periscope Depth                                                     12   40   Fantastic
With the Fishes                                                      13   45   Fantastic
Big Fish in a Small Pond                                            14   50   Fantastic
Punched a Shark in the Nose                                     15   50   Fantastic
Dolphin Rider                                                           16   50   Fantastic
Torpedo Range                                                        17   55   Fantastic
Look, Spanish Gold!                                                  18   55   Epic
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Offline Jeckel

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 08:32:02 PM »
I think there is something to be gained by separating skill totals and refresh totals.
....

I can see some benefit from doing it that way, but the goal is to extend the Power Level table without modifying the canon items and by following the pattern they set.
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Offline Jeckel

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2010, 08:32:34 PM »
Bear in mind...only a single Refresh point is gained at only Major Milestones.

True, however, the amount of refresh you gain through character development and the amount of refresh you start with to build your character are to separate things, apples and oranges. If you start at PL1000 you would still only get the one refresh at the milestone.

Frankly...I don't think any being directly encountered in the books would be higher than 50...tops.

The devs have done there job and built a system around the wonderful books, but I see no reason that we need to be restrained to only what is represented in the books. If I want to run a angel/demon game, then that is going to need to be pretty high refresh rate to build the starting characters. The books and the RPG system reference "plot device" level beings and there is no reason that they shouldn't be playable even without the characters having "free-will". After all, not having free-will doesn't mean you aren't able to make decisions, it just means you don't choose your own overriding purpose in life.

Dunno...just my take on it all.  I just think it's kinda unreasonably greedy to INCREASE the refresh gained at higher PLs.

I would have to disagree. If a GM wants to run a PL50 or whatever for their players then that is as reasonable as a GM that wants to run a Feet in the Water level game.

Yes, I'm aware of that.  My point is that Harry is in some pretty constant peril at certain times, which is during the novels and gaining Major Milestones.  His entire life will not be spent at such levels of involvement.  Well, ok, HIS might be...but no one else's ever is.  When it comes to artificially advancing a character that far before play even BEGINS, doubling the refresh gain per PL is like starting with 11 superb skills through Mimic Abilities.

No reason that all characters have to be mortal or be confined by the rules of mortality. Also no reason that characters have to start at the beginning of their careers. It's total possible to start a campaign as characters that are as powerful, or more powerful, then the Gatekeeper or any other character mentioned in the books.

That said, considering how important skill levels are to spellcasting, none of them need more refresh to pop more powerful spells.  They only need one or both of two things...skills high enough to allow for the shifts in power necessary to do the things they do, and/or stress and consequence capacity to soak up the extra.  In fact...as old as most of the Senior Council are, imagine how many refinements they'd have by 30 refresh, which they could reasonably reach at their age...now think about how high their bloody skills would be.  They don't need that much more refresh.  Refresh determines how broad a range of effects you're capable of, but it's skills that determine their strength.  Also...refinements allow you to go a bit beyond your actual skill capacity regarding spellcasting strength...but it's your skill capacity that sets the benchmark anyway.  No matter how many refinements you have, you still want those skills at the absolute top.

I do agree with your point that an increasing growth of the refresh rate might not be ideal and I can see how raising refresh rate every other PL or so might be workable.

Anyway, I'll let it go.  It's only my take on things, and I seem to be alone in my camp.  lol  So, I'm done and out on this one.

I may not agree with some of your reasoning, but you've raised some valid points. I for one am happy to hear opinions from all sides, and when you get down to it, we're all just a bunch of people yelling into space, so your opinion is as valid as that of anyone else. :)
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Offline Jeckel

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2010, 08:35:45 PM »
Jeckel, i would do it by two up to 20, then i might start going by 5's, but making it harder to get too points where you advance, and the i would up it again at 40 and so on, just my idea

Yea, that is kind what I was thinking as well. I've been leaning toward the +2 from PL10 to PL20. However... (see bottom of this post)

For higher level games, and to mark advancement I thought our dial should go to 13 or maybe 18.
I am terrible with naems. But, I hope these names and stats are in the ballpark.

The stats seem pretty close to what I was thinking.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

After reading the previous posts and thinking for a bit.

What if we continued with +1 refresh rate up to PL20, all following the water theme. Then we can use whatever method to continue them from there (+2, +5, +1 every other level, etc). We could also change the theme from water to something else for those levels above PL20.
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Offline Todjaeger

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2010, 08:38:19 AM »
I have been looking at creating a new power level as well.

What I have been looking at is:

Toe in the Water: 4 Refresh, 10 Skill Points, Skill Cap at Great

Basis for the idea is an 11 year old child, just coming into their powers.  As part of this lower level, the initial character advancement would be somewhat accelerated with more sessions of play ending with Significant or Major Milestones, until a level of power comparable to either Feet in the Water or the other players is reached.
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Tbora

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2010, 11:34:39 PM »
Here is the table for power levels I set up, because I could not really find a good way to work with the ones given in the books given what I was trying for.So I said to hell with it, and just built from the ground up.Hope you find it useful.

Custom Power Level Table

Names Refresh Rate Skill Points Skill Caps


Hydrophobic And Proud   
1   10   Fair

Rain Doesn’t Scare Me   
2   10   Fair

Playing In the Tub is Fun   
3   15   Fair

Nearing the Shore   
4   15   Good

Walking the Beach
5   20   Good

Feet in the Water
6   20   Good

Up To Your Knees    
7   25   Great

At The Waist   
8   30   Great

Chest Deep
9   30   Great

Neck High   
10   35   Superb

Submerged   
11   35   Superb

Bottom Of The Pool   
12   40   Superb

In Need of A Snorkel   
13   45   Superb

With The Fishes   
14   45   Fantastic

SCUBA Gear Time!
15   50   Fantastic

Big Fish, Bigger Ocean   
16   50   Fantastic

Punched a Shark in the Nose!   
17   55   Fantastic

Wish I Had a Submarine…   
18   60   Fantastic

I Spy Atlantis!   
19   60   Epic

Swimming In Weeds
20   70   Epic


Offline Cyberchihuahua

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2010, 03:08:50 AM »
75 = Lower than whale poop?
100+ = Marianas?


100+ = R'lyeh.
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Offline Peteman

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2010, 03:11:15 AM »
We should probably start mentioning the crust, and even "Digging Into Magma"

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2010, 03:50:26 AM »
As some of you may know, I've created some custom power levels of my own. The ones above Submerged offer far more refresh and far fewer skill points than the levels here. This is because they were originally designed for wizards, who need a lot of refresh. The ones below Feet In The Water are designed for ordinary mortals with no particular skills. Keep those things in mind when using these, and remember that although these power levels have worked quite well for me in my work on NPCs they may not be appropriate to player characters.

Hydrophobe (10 skill points, 2 refresh, skill cap good)
You're kind of a loser. You have no significance to the supernatural world and little to the mundane one.

On The Beach (15 skill points, 4 refresh, skill cap good)
You're just some guy. You probably know nothing about the supernatural world and you're not a big shot in the mundane one either. Joe Average level.

Snorkeling (40 skill points, 13 refresh, skill cap superb)
You're pretty damn powerful. Most cities don't have more than one or two guys at this level. I'm considering increasing the skill cap to fantastic for this level.

Scuba Diving (45 skill points, 17 refresh, skill cap fantastic)
You're one of the best in the world at what you do. Faerie Queens, Vampire Kings, and Senior Council members know who you are.

In A Submarine (50 skill points, 21 refresh, skill cap fantastic)
You are a being of global significance. You have the power to star in legends, change the course of world events, or defeat a small army singlehandedly.

Deep One (65 skill points, 38 refresh, skill cap epic)
You are a supernatural heavyweight. This is the level of Senior Council members, legendary monsters, the leaders of Vampire Courts, and other plot devices.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: New Power Levels
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2010, 04:41:04 AM »
Would anyone object if I (or someone else) were to add these powers to the DFRPG Resource Wiki?