Pure mortal to supernatrual character

[The Codex]

I may have missed this in the book and or a post on here but just trying to find an answer,

does a player give up the two free refresh and invest in supernatrual powers of new template
eg being turned by red court ?

[srl51676]

Yes "If this character ever takes a
supernatural power, this refresh bonus goes
away immediately (which may be mitigated by
dropping one or two mortal stunts)." YS73

you loose those two points to your new hunger for blood

[Belmonte]

Yes.  As soon as a Pure Mortal gains any supernatural abilities, they lose the two 'free' refresh.  So the player'd lose the free refresh, then would have to pay for the abilities in refresh, and considering the cost of Red Court Vampires, would likely become an NPC unless they saved up /all/ their Fate Refresh.

[The Codex]

Curses

I read through those pages and missed it......

Now I feal like a numpty 

[Silverblaze]

Sorry for the necro, but I didn't see a point in starting a new thread for this question.

Where does one draw the hard line between pure mortal and supernatural.  (The easy answer is as soon as a single refresh is spent on powers, but that doesn't satisfy mes since many IoP's shouldn't be considered powers [in my opinion].)

Does an item of power change the fundamental being of a pure mortal to supernatural?

Swords of the Cross being my main concern here... However, many gadgets like Batman would carry could easily be called IoP's and I'd still call him a pure mortal.

Thoughts?

[Vairelome]

Which IoPs shouldn't be considered Supernatural Powers?  I thought that the point of IoPs were that they provided a neat package of Supernatural Powers external to the PC that could have occasional restricted access (justifying the refresh rebate).

Note, if we're talking about someone picking up an IoP on a one-shot basis, sure, but if someone's permanently changing an Aspect to "Wielder of the Spear of Longinus," then it seems reasonable that they've checked out of Pure Mortal territory.  Alternatively, if Harry lets Murphy borrow his enchanted duster for a bit, and has paid the necessary "someone other than the creator can use" cost, Murphy retains her PM refresh, since IoPs and EIs aren't the same.

[Tsunami]

Sorry for the necro, but I didn't see a point in starting a new thread for this question.

Where does one draw the hard line between pure mortal and supernatural.  (The easy answer is as soon as a single refresh is spent on powers, but that doesn't satisfy mes since many IoP's shouldn't be considered powers [in my opinion].)

Does an item of power change the fundamental being of a pure mortal to supernatural?

Swords of the Cross being my main concern here... However, many gadgets like Batman would carry could easily be called IoP's and I'd still call him a pure mortal.

Thoughts?

He may still be a pure mortal from a flavor point of view.
But from a Rules perspective he is not. And the refresh bonus is simply an mechanic in the rules meant to balance power-users and non-power-users.

No Powers (includes IoPs) -> pure mortal bonus
1 or more powers (includes IoPs) -> No pure mortal bonus

Imho there's really nothing more to say about it.

[Nyarlathotep5150]

many gadgets like Batman would carry could easily be called IoP's and I'd still call him a pure mortal.

   Not really. Most of Batmans Gadgets would be Enchanted Items at best (a lot of them only get used once, so thats a potion). IoP's are supposed to be powerful, unique items with their own power source and possibly their own motivations.
    Enchanted Items degrade over time, unless you reenchant them periodically (I'm sure Batman need to tinker with those gadgets constantly to keep them in working order).
   
    The way I see it it works like this.
    A spear enchanted to be sharper isnt an IoP.
    The Sword of Mars (Attila the Huns sword, forged from a meteorite) MIGHT be one.
    The Hammer of Thor definitely is one.

  Also as Vairelome touched on, remember that, if you're only adding the power temporarily (like picking up an Item of Power for one adventure) then you only have to pay the power cost in fate points, not refresh.

[Silverblaze]

All good answers.  I can't fault any of them.

I suppose my irritation regarding this is when people talk about the limits of a pure mortal.  it seems to me that there are very few (pure mortals) within the system then; at least from a playable standpoint. 

I always had the feeling "Pure Mortal" had more to do with supernatural heritage and free will than carrying a magical item.  Though if we're simply talking refresh spent on powers then I suppose I can't argue hte definition.

However, when commnents or arguements are made that a pure mortal cannot fight a loup garou or something, people are likely only refering to people with just stunts; no IoP or powers. 

I would hazard that a Knight of the Cross is only better equiped to fight a loup garou offensively, becuase he/she is no better off defensively.  The arguement or comment is then flawed greatly.

[zenten]

Knights of the Cross have all sorts of powers beyond having a sword.  Remember that Charity Carpenter and Father Forthill also don't count as pure mortals in this game.

[Lanir]

For Items of Power it might be easier to think of it from the story point of view rather than the system. People who wield an item of power become known for it. Michael in the early novels isn't just Michael. He's Michael-who-wields-a-sword-of-the-cross. You know as a reader that anything involving him will involve a sword of the cross.

This isn't true later on when someone else picks one up and briefly swings it around.

The line is fuzzy but when it's crossed, that's when someone should pick up an appropriate Aspect and lose the Pure Mortal bonus. Batman for example isn't famous for his gadgets outside of internet memes ("bat shark repellent" is a joke, not something we seriously expect him to produce on demand in another series).

As for the loup garou... I would say that's just a subset of something more general that holds true in all RPGs. Which is simply that some enemies are setup in a way that not all groups can handle equally well. Anytime you get into specialized attacks and defenses or go higher up the power scale of the system this can get more pronounced.

[Roxy Rocket]

No Powers (includes IoPs) -> pure mortal bonus
1 or more powers (includes IoPs) -> No pure mortal bonus

Imho there's really nothing more to say about it.

The wall between Narrative and Mechanics must be preserved. While both vital to our storytelling, if they co-mingle one shall die and the other become so powerful as to plunge us into a formless abyss or draconian hellscape until the next edition comes out!

[polkaneverdies]

^ spit out my coffee. Nicely done.

[Sanctaphrax]

I agree with Tsunami.

I'd like to add that some people with supernatural powers might be doable with the Pure Mortal template. Agent Tilly comes to mind.

[Tallyrand]

All good answers.  I can't fault any of them.

I suppose my irritation regarding this is when people talk about the limits of a pure mortal.  it seems to me that there are very few (pure mortals) within the system then; at least from a playable standpoint. 

I always had the feeling "Pure Mortal" had more to do with supernatural heritage and free will than carrying a magical item.  Though if we're simply talking refresh spent on powers then I suppose I can't argue hte definition.

However, when commnents or arguements are made that a pure mortal cannot fight a loup garou or something, people are likely only refering to people with just stunts; no IoP or powers. 

I would hazard that a Knight of the Cross is only better equiped to fight a loup garou offensively, becuase he/she is no better off defensively.  The arguement or comment is then flawed greatly.

I think that you're thinking Items of Power too much like simple magic items rather than huge deals. I mean to even wield an IoP your character must have an aspect representing it, so already by their very nature that are eroding your narrative control over your character.  Lets look at a few examples that we're likely all familiar with.

The One Ring: When Bilbo had the ring over time it drove him insane with paranoia, when Frodo was given it he had to go on an epic quest, these both sound to me like loss of narrative control.

Excalibur: When Arthur was granted the sword it became one of the defining features of his rise to power.

The Swords of the Cross: (yes I know, but fictionally we can look at them separately) No one who wields a Sword of the Cross does so lightly, to take up the burden means to take up a great deal of responsibility, which is why when offered it is not taken up lightly.

Personally I have a tough time coming up with an IoP scale thing without it seeming to be central to the characters fiction, and since Refresh represents not having control over your characters destiny it seems perfectly appropriate for them to cost your characters Pure Mortal status.

It's also fair to note, since this may just be a terminology divide that we're having that having an IoP makes your character no less pure mortal.  Killing Michael would still be bad for a Wizard for example, the only mortalness that your loose from taking an IoP is the 2 free refresh (which interestingly may just be absorbed that the IoPs refresh bonus).