Author Topic: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions  (Read 2393 times)

Offline yrtalien

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Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« on: March 24, 2011, 01:00:50 AM »
My room-mate and I are looking to play Dresden later in the year (as our next game) and he is looking through Mortal Stunts.

He's come across Step into the Blow and Redirected Force both of which require you to sacrifice your next action and Riposte from weapons which does not. I can sort of understand Step into the Blow because it offers you a +1 on your Fists roll but I wonder about Riposte in comparrison. Now other than our one on one test run we havent really played the game so I may not be seeing something... Could you tell me if these are really worth it? He's asking about Redirect which forces you to lose your next action and with their next action in the next round they (the target) has gotten back to his feet and lost the "on the ground" you put on them.  though I suppose you could just go with "fucked up knee".

Also he is wanting to play a Kinetomancer Kung-Fu guy with a high concept of Kinetic Martial Artist Defender of the Streets who takes a few of the Inhumans (Toughness, and Speed) because his training was that good... and Channeling (Force) of course would be things like kinetic bolts.  He doesn't forsee ever taking anything beyond Inhuman. I don't think that sounds too bad but those with experience let me know if I'm getting into the area of too powerful, like I said still verrrrry new so any advice.

He's trying to come up with a catch that he can apply to his toughnesss and true magic seems kind of nebulous any suggestions.  Sorry if I seem wildly out of my depth I'm still getting my feet wet and having a place I can go to ask these questions feels reassuring.  if I get bother some let me know.

When countrmagicking, which he should be able to do with channeling, can he only countermagic force effects?

Thank you all,

Oscar

Offline TheMouse

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 01:16:54 AM »
Riposte does require you to give up your next action; it's in the first sentence.

I'm personally somewhat leery about Stunts that force you to give up your next action. I understand that you're actually taking the same amount of actions overall, but you're going whole turns without having anything to do, and don't get to react to what other people do.

Out of the three you've mentioned, I like Riposte the most. It's an attack with a weapon, thus it gets increased damage. Since you turn the defense roll into the attack roll, any modifiers that were applied are still there, so Fate points spent effectively count twice.

Being a magic user and a fighter is self limiting. You need to spend a lot of points to get competent in two areas like that. Someone who focused in one of the areas is going to be better than you in that area. I wouldn't be worried.

"True magic," is a perfectly good catch. It's listed as an example in the Catch section. You might want to chat out whether he means mortal magic or all magic. If no one knows about this and this character isn't an example of a type of being who could theoretically be looked up, the Catch is +1. If he's a type of being someone with resources could figure out, it's +2.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 01:24:53 AM »
I'd let him counter any spell, but it's really a judgement call. Spell effects are like that.

Taking Channelling alongside Inhuman powers doesn't worry me power-wise unless you stack a whole pile of Refinements on there. Even then, it should be manageable. As TheMouse (are you the same person as Mouse on the White Wolf forums, TheMouse?) said, he's spreading himself pretty thin.

True Magic sounds like a good catch to me.

Offline Haru

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 01:42:15 AM »
Riposte definitely requires you to sacrifice your next action: "On a successful defense with Weapons, you may sacrifice your next action to turn that defense into an immediate and automatically successful attack." Otherwise you would just take that stunt, go full defense on every fight and get an attack opportunity on every attacker, which is kind of overpowered.

Concerning Redirected Force, the idea is, that you place an aspect with as many shifts as you have generated with your defense roll. The attacker has to spend his next action on getting rid of that aspect, or you are going to use it against him. So either you can use that aspect in your next attack, or he is going to use his next action to get rid of the aspect and not to attack you.
Plus: if your action is before your opponent, you can always delay your action, waiting for him to strike, use redirect force and then you have an aspect placed on him AND the next exchange starts with your action, so you can take full advantage of your aspect. I would expect a character with a stunt like that to fight like that, waiting for the opponent to make a mistake and then using that mistake to his advantage.


The character your roommate is trying to create is pretty close to an idea I played around with, although I didn't apply inhuman speed or toughness. Speed is pretty straightforward, he uses his magic to increase his reflexes and so he can act faster, no big deal. A toughness power for a character like that is tougher though. I would limit it to blunt physical stress only, so he would be protected from punches, kicks, baseballbats, that kind of stuff. During his training he simply learned to ignore the pain from those injuries, so they won't have as much impact on him as some other trauma would have (cuts, burns, bullets would hurt him as much as any mortal). Basically this is an inverted catch (instead of everything but one it is only one thing it applies to), this is explained in the description of the catch YS185.

Another thing you might like is a stunt I used for my character. Because he only uses magic to extend his physical fighting capacity, I gave my character a stunt that allows him to usw fists instead of discipline to cast spells. Basically you can supercharge a fists attack with a force effect. There have been discussions about this type of stunt, but I like the idea, because it really fits the character concept, and I don't think it is all that overpowered.

As far as I understand he should be able to counterspell any spell he wants. Depending on how you apply his channeling (with or without the stunt I described above), he might need to be able to touch the spell or at least a physical representation of it.

Hope this helped, if not, just ask again  ;)
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 01:46:34 AM »
If I am interpreting this correctly a block lowers your enemies skill roll even if it bypassed the block so that could make Riposte far more useful as the difference would be much bigger between your defence and his attack. 
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Offline yrtalien

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 01:54:27 AM »
Adding another question to this list.

Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes wizards?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link?

Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes the alphas (who are just normal people who discovered the trick of turnign into wolves right)? right?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link? Some alpha blood? Does it need to be blood from each member and is it an additional +2 for each alpha?  Could any human who had learned the trick then pass through?


Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes white court vampire?  Are WCV living people?  I know BCV are dead, and Red Court aren't really human...

Thanks again
Oscar




Offline Haru

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 02:11:19 AM »
If I am interpreting this correctly a block lowers your enemies skill roll even if it bypassed the block so that could make Riposte far more useful as the difference would be much bigger between your defence and his attack. 

Don't you get either a block or a defense roll, whichever is higher? I always understood blocks as trying to put up a defense roll before something happens and maybe use a skill that you are better with than just athletics as a default skill for defense when you have to.

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Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes wizards?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link?
I think you could exclude supernaturally charged entities (doesn't that sound all politically correct?  ;) ). You can use a lore roll to determine if someone has anything supernatural in them and then exclude those. The role should be made when the ward is set up and could be opposed by discipline or deceit.
Your group might be all right with setting up something like "only entities with no more than X refresh in supernatural powers are allowed", which would allow lowpowered people (minor talents, focused practitioners, etc.) to enter, wizards and others would not be allowed. You could get around this by inactive shapeshifting abilities for example, because usually you have 2 refresh worth of powers "active" in human form and all the others are only active when in wereform, and the ward might not detect this.

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Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes the alphas (who are just normal people who discovered the trick of turnign into wolves right)? right?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link? Some alpha blood? Does it need to be blood from each member and is it an additional +2 for each alpha?  Could any human who had learned the trick then pass through?
You might be able to include something in your ward, if you have studied the alphas long enough. Every one of them has "echoes of the beast" as a power, so maybe you watched them with your sight, as humans, as wolfs and when changing to figure out what makes them different to normal humans. Or you could try and create a generic voodoo doll, human shape but with wolf hair attached to it to put up a ward against the alphas. Or werewolves as a whole for that matter.

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Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes white court vampire?  Are WCV living people?  I know BCV are dead, and Red Court aren't really human...
I think that one is even in the book. Take a vial of white court vamps blood and you're good to go.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 02:19:16 AM »
He's come across Step into the Blow and Redirected Force both of which require you to sacrifice your next action and Riposte from weapons which does not. I can sort of understand Step into the Blow because it offers you a +1 on your Fists roll but I wonder about Riposte in comparrison. Now other than our one on one test run we havent really played the game so I may not be seeing something... Could you tell me if these are really worth it? He's asking about Redirect which forces you to lose your next action and with their next action in the next round they (the target) has gotten back to his feet and lost the "on the ground" you put on them.  though I suppose you could just go with "fucked up knee".
I agree with The Mouse and others...losing an action is something I'm a bit leery of, partly because it doesn't seem fun and partly because actions are a major currency of almost every RPG.  Unlike The Mouse, Redirected Force is the one I find most tempting.  But using it more effectively than a Maneuver on your turn is very situational...basically good when both you and your opponent have high defenses.  If your opponent's defenses are relatively low to moderate, you're better off with a Maneuver.

As for the aspect applied, I'd treat it as sticky.  So the opponent would have to spend an action to remove it.  Also, remember players can invoke for effect (trigger a compel) as well as simply invoke.  So a well chosen aspect invoked for effect at a good moment can have a big impact.  

Quote
Also he is wanting to play a Kinetomancer Kung-Fu guy with a high concept of Kinetic Martial Artist Defender of the Streets who takes a few of the Inhumans (Toughness, and Speed) because his training was that good... and Channeling (Force) of course would be things like kinetic bolts.  He doesn't forsee ever taking anything beyond Inhuman. I don't think that sounds too bad but those with experience let me know if I'm getting into the area of too powerful, like I said still verrrrry new so any advice.
This sounds like a reasonable concept to me.  Full casters have the most potential power, largely because of flexibility.  Lenient sponsored magics are probably the top tier.  

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He's trying to come up with a catch that he can apply to his toughnesss and true magic seems kind of nebulous any suggestions.  Sorry if I seem wildly out of my depth I'm still getting my feet wet and having a place I can go to ask these questions feels reassuring.  if I get bother some let me know.
True magic works, but will come up a lot in most games.  How often do you want the catch to be an issue?

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When countrmagicking, which he should be able to do with channeling, can he only countermagic force effects?
As the book says, you can do almost anything with any element...if you're creative enough.  ;-)  Using Spirit, you could counterspell almost anything simply by disrupting the will / power / magic enabling the spell construct.  With Water you'd wear away at the spell construct, Earth could ground it, Air disperse it, and Fire consume it.  The element changes the imagery far more than the ability.

Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes wizards?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link?
Sure, I'd use a wizard's blood (or equivalent) as the link.  Have fun getting it!  :)

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Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes the alphas (who are just normal people who discovered the trick of turnign into wolves right)? right?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link? Some alpha blood? Does it need to be blood from each member and is it an additional +2 for each alpha?  Could any human who had learned the trick then pass through?
Again it's possible.  Excluding the specific people you probably need a link to each.  Unless you can think of something they have in common and link to it...

Quote
Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes white court vampire?  Are WCV living people?  I know BCV are dead, and Red Court aren't really human...
Yep, just need the link again.  May need more than one if you're attempting to exclude multiple types of WCVs.  
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Offline Tedronai

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 02:21:02 AM »
Adding another question to this list.

Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes wizards?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link?


All living people, except all wizards?
Yes.
Distilled 'living person' life force divested of any mystical link to its origin (to create an exception to the ward) - perhaps a combination of blood samples from a large number of donors? - and distilled mortal magic similarly divested (to create an exception to the exception) - probably requiring a thaumaturgical ritual of its own to create.


Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes the alphas (who are just normal people who discovered the trick of turnign into wolves right)? right?  If so what is the relevant symbolic link? Some alpha blood? Does it need to be blood from each member and is it an additional +2 for each alpha?  Could any human who had learned the trick then pass through?

Yes.  If you want to create an exception-to-the-exception for ONLY the Alphas, then yes, you'll need a sample (though you don't necessarily need to use blood for your samples) from each member.
If you want to create an exception-to-the-exception for ANY werewolf, then you'll need something more general, or generalized (as above with the vague 'divested of link to its source) to all werewolves.


Can a ward be created that admits living people but excludes white court vampire?  Are WCV living people?  I know BCV are dead, and Red Court aren't really human...

WCVs are living, but they might not be 'people', for a certain value thereof.  As above, it would be possible to create a ward that makes an exception for living people, and also makes an exception-to-that-exception for WCVs (assuming that they count as 'people, and thus need to be excepted from the exception)
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 02:22:24 AM »
Don't you get either a block or a defense roll, whichever is higher?
Per the book, you block an action type when used against multiple people or (potentially) all actions when used against one person.  A broken block does reduce the action's number of shifts by the block value / rating.  
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Offline Haru

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 02:27:01 AM »
Ok, then this does seem to make for a great block/riposte combo. I like it :)
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Offline TheMouse

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 02:29:49 AM »
(are you the same person as Mouse on the White Wolf forums, TheMouse?

Yup. I also post as TheMouse on RPGnet. I respond to Mouse, TheMouse, or Michael.

The whole TheMouse thing is a real world nickname from middle and high school, based on a mispronunciation of part of my last name. Strangely enough, it evolved a vocative declension in that people referred to me as TheMouse but addressed me as Mouse.

Unlike The Mouse, Redirected Force is the one I find most tempting. But using it more effectively than a Maneuver on your turn is very situational

I'm something of a self-noted min-maxer when I state my preference for Riposte. Riposte is more consistently useful than a strange Maneuver, although the Maneuver is potentially situationally more useful. I value consistent, predictable bonuses, especially when an attack roll can sometimes function as a limited Maneuver in that it inflicts a Consequence.

Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2011, 02:47:06 AM »
Yeah, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong!  Just that we had different preferences.   :)
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Offline DFJunkie

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Re: Riposte and Fists and a few more questions
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2011, 01:56:43 PM »
Quote
If so what is the relevant symbolic link?
Since the being in question would be in contact with the spell construct no symbolic link would be necessary, there's already a direct physical one. 

Now, throwing in some wizardly or WCV trappings, or both for the "this ward allows mortals through but excludes wizards and vampires" ward would definitely help, and depending on your GM's ruling might even be a requirement, but not as a link.

As far as I can tell, a ward can be made to exclude or exclude anything it can detect.  Since both a wizard's magical abilities and a WCVs demonic nature can be ascertained magically either one could be subjected to a targeted ward (or excluded from a "mortals" exception) by tacking a divination spell of the appropriate complexity onto the complexity of the wards.
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