Author Topic: Keeping Battles Interesting  (Read 3313 times)

Offline Mr. Death

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Keeping Battles Interesting
« on: May 29, 2012, 09:43:25 PM »
So, in the game, you can get up to some pretty impressive levels of damage--powerful weapons, strength powers, spellcraft in general, so that any given character could theoretically be attacking and dodging at 5 (or even 6 or higher), and doing 5 stress or more each shot.

This, for me at least, makes it something of a challenge to create meaningful adversity in battle without resorting to giving the bad guys Toughness or Speed powers to compensate (I mean, even in the books, a handful of mortal goons can give anyone a little bit of trouble).

So what are some of the ways you guys even the odds against your PCs from time to time?
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Offline ways and means

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2012, 10:05:14 PM »
Ambushing using enemies work to make combat more lethal though against non-toughened PC are over fatal. Giving enemies skill synergy work quite well to up the difficulty for example a two man team one of them with high level area of effect magic and the other with high level barrier magic, one blocking the other whilst the other area of effect blasts everything (whilst being protected by the block).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 10:08:18 PM by ways and means »
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Offline sinker

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2012, 10:06:23 PM »
I feel that this system has never been about mechanical... "Spice" shall we say. It's too simple to be all that interesting in that fashion (though it's impact interests the designer in me).

So how do I introduce interest? Narrative drama, and by that I mean compels, lots and lots of compels. My battles often involve more than one side, and have connection to the players.

Offline ways and means

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2012, 10:15:25 PM »
I also have my villains seek out as much collateral as possible which makes fight more interesting, lots of witnesses and lots of potential victims.
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Offline UmbraLux

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2012, 12:54:12 AM »
So what are some of the ways you guys even the odds against your PCs from time to time?
Numbers.  Gang up on them with half (or more) the attackers maneuvering and the others using the tags.  One of the better (as in a PC had to take an extreme consequence) situations I've used had one necromancer behind four zombies.  The PC who really got hammered rushed through the zombies to take down the necro - and ended up with the necro concentrating on him while two of the zombies attacked from behind.

Of course my friends drop attacks in the mid to high teens when they get serious.  So a single opponent doesn't last (last solo "BBEG" conceded after one combat round - and he had 23 refresh to the PCs' 9, though there were five PCs). 

Beyond numbers, environmental issues can keep things interesting.  A building on fire or being destroyed, high winds (from a spell when I used it), mortals in the area or even as opponents (kids & drug dealers respectively), and probably several other possibilities.  Another possible modifier is a time limit...ticking bomb, chase, ritual going off, etc.  Emphasize things other than the combat and opponents.
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Offline admiralducksauce

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2012, 11:13:31 AM »
Quote
Emphasize things other than the combat and opponents.

I try to do this whenever possible. Make the conflict about something other than simply eradicating the opposition. Rescue someone, escape a place, retrieve a macguffin, race to a destination, capture a specific enemy.

Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2012, 12:31:36 AM »
This is something I consider myself to be pretty good at. I value mechanically interesting fights pretty highly, so I've given this a lot of thought.

Anyway, here's what I do:

I look for gimmicks. I'd divide gimmicks into three broad categories: environmental, character, and narrative.

An environmental gimmick is a battlefield with unusual mechanical effects. For instance, one of my recent fights took place on an unrealistically-large tree in the Nevernever. If you wanted to fight close up, you'd need to make a couple of sprint actions to get up the tree. Plus there was a landmine at the top. A brief list of environmental gimmicks:

-Zone borders.
-Traps and landmine-wards.
-Environmental hazards.
-Very small battlefields.
-Very large battlefields.
-Zones with special traits.
-Unusual enemy formations.
-Unusual zone maps.

Then there are character gimmicks, which are unusual traits that make the combatants in a fight mechanically interesting. For example, one of my PCs in my PbP game launches massive Evocations but has no Toughness or Speed. If every combatant fights differently, things are more interesting. Basically, I try to diversify. Here's an incomplete list of what we have to pick from:

-Numbers.
-Unbalanced offensive/defensive capabilities.
-Enormous damage with low accuracy or vice versa.
-Incite Emotion-based combat.
-Evocation-based combat.
-Crafting-based combat.
-Custom Powers like Extra Appendages, Damage Shield, Dangerous Aura, etc.
-FP-based combat.
-Physical power-based combat.
-Stunt-based combat.
-Unusually long or short ranged combat skills.
-A mechanical weakness like a Catch.
-Summoning and other in-combat thaumaturgy, courtesy of Sponsored Magic.
-Poison.
-Grappling.
-A build that promotes excessive maneuvering/blocking.

Then there are narrative gimmicks, basically odd situations. Like an ambush or somebody being too crazy not to kill their own allies. Or like giving your PCs some friends/people to protect. One example would be the tree fight I mentioned earlier, where the two PCs had three golems to help them out. Unfortunately, I ended up having to run one of the PCs in that fight too, so the NPC ally-to-PC ratio got messed up. But that's beside the point. Some random narrative gimmicks:

-Everyone is fighting over a Macguffin.
-One side just wants to run away.
-Somebody turns traitor during the fight.
-One side has an unfair advantage, like an ambush.
-The teamwork on one or both sides is awful.
-The enemies of the PCs are fighting one another as well.
-Anything involving Compels.
-The PCs are fighting alongside NPCs.
-Someone is specifically targeting someone else.

I mix in a few gimmicks. Then I look at my players's capabilities carefully. I imagine what a typical attack from each fighter will do to each other fighter. If things seem wrong, I change things.

Making a fight interesting isn't just about presenting a challenge, though that's part of it.

PS: Accuracy 5 weapon 5 defence 5 is nothing special. Skilled mortals can reach that level, no problem. Not sure why you'd be having problems with that. Are you not giving your mortal goons armour?

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2012, 01:41:22 AM »
PS: Accuracy 5 weapon 5 defence 5 is nothing special. Skilled mortals can reach that level, no problem. Not sure why you'd be having problems with that. Are you not giving your mortal goons armour?
Well, mostly I was theorizing/planning with this thread. I haven't personally run into this sorta thing yet--most of the time one of my battles goes way too well for the PCs, it's just because the bad guy keeps flubbing his rolls (a Red Court noble is a lot less scary when he can't seem to roll anything above 3).

Though in the game I just took over, the previous GM had to add a couple Black Court vamps each round in an early fight to keep it from being a total curb-stomping by our side (turns out sending flammable vampires at a pair of wizards and a valkyrie with a flaming sword doesn't work very well), so it's a concern even without counting mortal goons.
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Offline Orladdin

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2012, 03:10:13 AM »
Sanc, I might just have to borrow some of the options on those lists.  Those are pretty awesome.


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Offline Alatain

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2012, 04:47:49 AM »
I have found that when you treat combat as a numbers game, it gets less interesting. Some of the best combats I have had were with new players that did not really know the system yet.

When I have new players, I usually run a starter session with pure mortal, temporary characters. I give them the back story that they are friends going out for a drink at a bar, then I have them choose three aspects and stat out a handful of skill slots. No powers and no stunts. The bar scene lets me highlight the way the aspect system works and I work through the basics of roleplaying, some social scenes (usually an intimidation match with the toughest looking PC and a gang member) and then usually culminating in combat.

I have seen some of the most inventive use of maneuvers and aspects from new players that do not have stunts and powers to confine their imagination. Ear clapping someone to stun them, kicking chairs out from people, flinging whiskey in eyes, etc. A low powered, bar room brawl can really be exciting.

Only after the bar scene do I introduce stunts when they go out into the alley and get attacked by some creature (my favorite was a ghost that was possessing someone that then tried to hop into one of the PCs. It showed off mental combat and let the player that took "Devout Words" to save the day). It really highlights what you can do without resorting to magic or powers.

Offline CottbusFiles

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2012, 04:57:24 PM »
So, in the game, you can get up to some pretty impressive levels of damage--powerful weapons, strength powers, spellcraft in general, so that any given character could theoretically be attacking and dodging at 5 (or even 6 or higher), and doing 5 stress or more each shot.

This, for me at least, makes it something of a challenge to create meaningful adversity in battle without resorting to giving the bad guys Toughness or Speed powers to compensate (I mean, even in the books, a handful of mortal goons can give anyone a little bit of trouble).

So what are some of the ways you guys even the odds against your PCs from time to time?

Hit them hard. HARD!
It's not so easy to get killed in DF so make them bleed and make them suffer. Let them spend extreme and severe consequences and enforce them hard later. Compel the shit out of the outcome of the battle. Don't fight to let them win in the end.
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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2012, 08:00:27 PM »
@Mr. Death: Yeah, The Catch can turn a fair fight into a curbstomp. When that happens I prefer to celebrate it, it seems appropriate to me that it should happen from time to time.

@Orladdin: Thanks.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2012, 08:18:51 PM »
@Mr. Death: Yeah, The Catch can turn a fair fight into a curbstomp. When that happens I prefer to celebrate it, it seems appropriate to me that it should happen from time to time.
True, but when half the player party can throw around fire at will, it makes it difficult to make the Black Court credible and dangerous antagonists. Though at least speed powers have let a badguy or two give one of those wizards a solid pounding before they were incinerated.
Compels solve everything!

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Offline Sanctaphrax

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2012, 08:28:28 PM »
Black Court Vampires are actually pretty fragile. They're probably the biggest paper tigers in the setting.

They do have some cool non-combat powers though. And they can be moderately dangerous to people who for whatever reason lack access to The Catch.

Against people who are at least slightly prepared, they'll need large groups of minions or items that protect against their Catches.

Offline Mr. Death

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Re: Keeping Battles Interesting
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2012, 09:05:27 PM »
That fragileness is actually something I really liked, conceptually, about the Black Court's design, that they've got fairly middling actual stats, but their powers make them a devil to hurt and let them dish out a lot of damage, which makes them scary as hell to your average mortal. To me it's just a very good mechanical demonstration of how a mortal can even the odds a bit with some knowledge and preparedness.

Makes it a little more difficult to make them credible Big Bads, but very nice conceptually.
Compels solve everything!

http://blur.by/1KgqJg6 My first book: "Brothers of the Curled Isles"

Quote from: Cozarkian
Not every word JB rights is a conspiracy. Sometimes, he's just telling a story.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_T_mld7Acnm-0FVUiaKDPA The C-Team Podcast