Author Topic: What a day, I've another 'help' question like everyone else posting today...  (Read 2426 times)

Offline meg_evonne

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I've always been intrigued with the American Beauty plot sequence....  Scene X, then back to A--> B--> C to X and then to Z. I simply love it and always have. So I tried to use it in the Isis work, but too many people nixed it--so I yanked it. The feedback I got was--it gives away too many clues. Pulling it, I got feedback that I needed the magic up front and since the main character is vanilla human in the beginning that is kinda hard to work. I tried prologue without the main character, showing the parents in full magic at a crucial point where they disappear. It is a scene that was natural and integral as it is the entire set up. That sort of worked, but it begins a 1st person point of view YA with the parents--a huge no no. I finally ended up with a frame front and back that uses the "Fates" in a maybe dream/maybe not dream sequence with some magic that seems to work, still it simply isn't as good for me personally as the Scene K, to A to B etc to Z that I initially constructed.

SO I'm in the new work and I instinctively go for this even more complicated interwoven plot sequence of a forward flash of a major huge fight. I want to interweave this extended fight into sections that are worked through out the entire manuscript until about the 3/4's point.  Again, I love the mix up. I love the hints of what's to come, I love the behind the scene look----but...

One major problem:

I'm watching Damages for the first time, having started to watch it AFTER I settled on the above experiment on the new work. I mean if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, right? I'll just combine it and use it traditionally...

Then I watched several episodes of Damages and I so HAVE TO MANAGE TO DO THIS. YET, I am terrified. I worry that I can't do it justice.

Sorry. Late night muses and self-doubt. I mean in Damages it is done so well, proving that the concept can be so satisfyingly agonizing. So it now longer feels like what I'm doing is an experiment, and now I feel like the structure is the way the book should be. Yet, again, can I do it? I WANT TO BE ABLE TO DO IT. I want to blow people's minds. 

I'm just a duffer for crying out loud...

Hitting the muse wall with a splat, yet I will not give up.  But it's really, really going to personally suck if it doesn't work because I can't manage it. I know it won't be as strong if I don't manage it, especially since the concept was born with the whole idea for the work...

Now, I'm not even making sense.

Share your personal attempts that you really wanted to work out, but they didn't---or maybe they did. Give me some inspiration folks, ok?

Thanks....  Meg
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Offline Snowleopard

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Hey Meg - sorry about splatting on the muse wall.
I don't know about inspiration but I do know that you shouldn't compare yourself to anyone else right now.
Everytime you do that you're just gonna come up short.
What is it the Desiderata says - "Always there will be greater or lesser than you...."
Get Black on white as they say - just write without overthinking it.
Words are cheap and you can always edit but you need to have the words to edit them.
The vanilla mortal who isn't has been used a couple of different places.
The Young Harry Potter and one of Barbara Hambly's characters - Rudy - in her Darthwar series.
Both handled in different fashions.

Offline jeno

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I seem to recall someone telling me that Fight Club (the book) started the way you're talking about. Might be worth looking into.

But just remember - Damages is presented in a visual medium. Same with American Beauty. And there are tons of things you can get away with in visual media that are extremely difficult to do in print. A picture single freeze frame is worth a thousand words, etc. Keep trying, but don't fight with yourself to exhaustion if it's just not going to work. Find another way if you need to, like having the opening be some sort of report or documentation instead of straight prose.
You think you know how this story is going to end, but you don't. -Christopher Moore

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. -Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman

Offline Starbeam

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Depending on how close the book is to the movie(I've only seen the movie), Fight Club does do that.  Aside from that, all the instances I can think of are TV/movies.  I kinda want to say Lies of Locke Lamora starts like this, but it's been a really long time since I read that, so I'm not sure if it does or if it just has the flashbacks interspersed through the story.

I'd offer suggestions, but I think my mind's not quite woken up yet.
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Offline jeno

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LoLL is all flashbacks.
You think you know how this story is going to end, but you don't. -Christopher Moore

The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. -Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman

Offline Lanodantheon

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Note: I don't know anything about the story you are working on other than this post.

My advice to you is to ask yourself this fundamental question right up front: "Why am I using the narrative structure I'm using?"

The linear, chronological narrative is the norm for a reason, it makes sense and is logical. 

You use a non-traditional structure when it adds something. Use it for the right reasons.


But here's a more important piece of advice: Focus on your story here and now. Constantly questioning your decisions after seeing a new thing will only bring you down or worse, distract you. At a certain point, you have to close your office door behind you, sit down and just write in a vacuum without any outside influences. Damages does it better? So what? Another show proves it doesn't work? So what?

Just write the best story you can with the tools and knowledge you have an hope it turns out well.

Have confidence.  :)

Honestly though, narrative structure comes in all kinds of shapes, sizes and flavors. The difference between a Linear narrative and a chronological narrative has been written about to death and experiments in non-chronological narratives are older than print.

In the screenwriting capstone I had a year ago, I experimented with the Point X to Point A to Point X then to Point Z narrative structure you mentioned first and learned its rules first hand when failing at it blew up in my face....twice. >_<

You can use that X-A-X-Z structure and it has some awesome effects if pulled off well.

Background: The narrative you are talking about is starting at point X(near the end of the story chronologically) and then saying, "How the heck did I get here?" then going back to point A(The chronological beginning). (I summarize for my own understanding)

The advantage of this structure is built-in suspense that makes you keep turning pages because of that suspense. You've seen the main character's fate later on, now you need to know how he/she got there. It's a simple, powerful psychological tool.

The disadvantage is that the bookends are the most fragile parts of the narrative. They set up the narrative rules and determine where the story begins and ends.

The front book end in the kind of structure is almost always en medias res. It's a set up for the story.

The Back book end is close to where the narrative ends.

From the sounds of what I read, you got flak for leaving too many clues at the front of the story. That's the risk of this narrative, which is also dependent on the Frame Narrative of this structure.  I don't know what you use for a frame narrative for the book, but its execution can make for a narrative that is very forgiving.

If you are passionate about using that American Beauty style of narrative, there are a few things you can try to tweak(in general since I haven't read your story).

Make the elements that are other than the main character fairly unrecognizable or forgettable until they come back.

For example: Book starts with magic duel between MC and BBEG, BBEG nails MC to the wall and has him dead to rights. Frame narrative begins.

The risks come from the following:
a) the MC using magic here means that when Point A begins and he is magicless, he won't stay that way. Solution: GO with it. accept that as a piece of information the audience is going to know. If this surprise of "The MC has magic!" is what you want, then this narrative won't work unless you conceal his identity too. But the MC is usually easy to spot in situations like these.
b) the BBEG has a recognizable identity early on. When he comes back in the story you will recognize the BBEG as the guy beating up the MC.
Solution: disguise the BBEG until that final battle.
c) The ending being too obvious from the clues given in the front.
Solution: Make the end past Point X longer. The information gleamed by Point X at the front only gives info up to Point X. Everything beyond that is open game. The suspense comes from what happens after Point X.



Aside from citing examples of this in action like Mary Shelly's Frankenstein(the book) and Sunset Boulevard, that's all I got without actually reading the work.

My conclusion to you is this: Any structure will work for you. Just go with it, understand the risks of those creative choices and write how you want.
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Offline Quantus

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As far as inspiration/research, the best I can think of off hand would be Memento.  Its film I know, but it takes the concept of non-linear storytelling to its extreme, and shows you how to trickle information out at an agonizingly suspenseful pace.


If your goal is less about getting a particular story out of your head, and more about exploring the new structure, My advice would be to not start from scratch.  Take a story you have already (I know you write enough to have something lying around) and edit it to fit the new structure.  Then read what you have and list all of the many flaws you just created.  Then see what you can tweek to fix them.  The final result will most likely suck, all things considered, but they say you learn more from failure than success, and it will give you a valuable road map of the sort of things to avoid the next time around.


EDIT:  Oops, didn't notice I was zombifying a thread.  I am curious though, any progress, or have you moved on to new things?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 04:15:02 PM by Quantus »
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Offline OZ

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Without seeing your actual narrative, I have no way of knowing what clues you are giving away that others feel ruins the story. Maybe you can shorten scene X at the beginning so that it does not contain so much information. Another trick that many authors use is to use the view point of another character for the initial scene X. This allows for them not seeing or not understanding everything that's happening. This allows you to reveal the information that you want to while keeping the rest hidden. I just read a story like that. The book begins with a sniper setting up to ambush the main character. The rest of the book starting with scene A is told from the main character's point of view.

Like Quantus I am curious if you had any luck working through this.
How do you know you have a good book?  It's 3am and you think "Just one more chapter!"

Offline meg_evonne

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I shelved it for a time, sadly. The advice presented was excellent and, therefore, it is gelling. Perhaps 'brewing' is a better term. I can feel the creative tension building for one of those long 24/7 (more likely all weekend type) writing binges. Scenes are stacking up, begging to be written. I ran into a stupid, but important medical problem requiring surgery--so I was waylaid, but that is no excuse and the characters in my head are screaming. I can write to my hearts content after the surgery on the 17th for two days before returning to my early morning writing routine.

As to my last YA, Land's checklist and logic firmed up my commitment to the front and back frame--always a satisfying feeling.

As to this work, 'get her done--one way or the other: decide later.'


« Last Edit: May 06, 2011, 06:24:37 AM by meg_evonne »
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Offline Snowleopard

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Keeping fingers and toes crossed and wishing you good luck and a fast recovery from the surgery.

Offline meg_evonne

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Thank you for your kind thoughts. They mean a great deal.
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
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Offline OZ

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Wishing you the best on your surgery. I hope everything goes well.
How do you know you have a good book?  It's 3am and you think "Just one more chapter!"

Offline shades of grey

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Indeed.  Big hugs!

Offline meg_evonne

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thank you again...  Your thoughts are appreciated, although it shouldn't be any big deal.
"Calypso was offerin' Odysseus immortality, darlin'. Penelope offered him endurin' love. I myself just wanted some company." John Henry (Doc) Holliday from "Doc" by Mary Dorla Russell
Photo from Avatar.com by the Domestic Goddess