Rules are:
1.Characters that have to have appeared or directly mentions in the series. So no Zeus or Kratos.
2. Yes. It's based on Combat so just forestalling the inevitable argument that that isn't the only measure of power.
3. Feel free to add, subtract or switch ranks. If enough people agree with your amendment I'll amend the Original Post, but will make note of such edits so people know what has changed.


1. Uriel (Archangel destroy galaxies. Limited by Free Will and Response)
2. Mothers (Measure above the Queens)
3. Ethniu (Able to compel Ferrovax and Vaddeung. Defeat Mab with the Eye)
4. Hades (God. Olympian which could take down the Titans, but still their progeny so think demi-god to god to Titan)
5. Ferrovax (Can Crack reality. Still Vadderungs a threat.)
6. Mab/Titania (Fae Queen)
7. Vadderung/Kringle (God but gave up his immortality to have Free Will and directly act in the world. WOJ confirms Soul Fire. Still could probably take Queens and Ferrovax. Or atleast it's close enough for everyone to play little games of protocol so they don't have to duel)
8. Drakul (Scary Star Born)
9. Erlking (Wild Hunt Kringle and Eldest equal has his own Dukedom.)
10. Red King (Erlking seemed confident he could hunt the Red Court)
11. Eldest Gruff (Likes dueling Senior Council and winning, bitch slapped a Denarian. Equal of Erlking and Kringle)
12. Leansidhe ( Often referred to as Mab's second. I put her above the Ladis simply because she's outlived half a dozen of them. I put her at Eldest Gurff contemporary)
13. Lords of Outer Night. (Will. Outsider backing, but Lea could take atleast one.)
14. Ladies. (Honestly their biggest weakness is their arrogance, but Dresden's defeated and killed several times)
15. Naagloshii (Powerful but can be driven off)
16. Ivy. (The Archive. All of human memory, but doesn't have innate magic based on her life span)
17. Rivers in his Shoulders/ Genowska (Forest People. Measurement of Senior Council for the Forest People. I think Blackstaff, Gatekeeper, The Merlin Might win but it'd be equivalent of Harry beating them so.)
18. Kemmler (Big Bad Necromancer)
19.Ebenezar (Blackstaff)
20. Rashid (Gatekeeper)
21. Langtry (The Merlin)
22. Harry (Winter Knight. The 3 above are the only Wizards who could take him handsdown and even then it'd be close.)
23. Sir Marcone/Namshiel (Denarian Magical expert riding shotgun)
24. Knights of the Cross (In order: Shiro, Michael, Sanya, Butters. They cancel out the Denarians assuming they have allies. Butters could be great with some time, experience and training)
25. Mouse (His abilities are Knight level depending on his home base)
25. Nicodemus (Skilled, Strong, Immortal likes killing champions but has been run off by Harry and the Knights his every appearance)
26. Simon Pietrovich (Vamp expert. Brute Squad leader. Cowl)
27. Duchess Ortega (Harry kicked her ass. Just putting her below the Vamp Expert, but above Polonius.)
28. Listens to Wind (Shaman Shapeshifter who can run off a Naagloshi)
29. Ursiel (Powerful but stupid. LtW could take him on in a shape shifter fight)
30. Polonius Latessa (Powerful, but clearly a Sorceror. Senior Council level but still)
31. Diedre (Her Physical abilities are impressive, but not as much as those above)
32. Martha Liberty (Senior Council. Loa spirit expert.)
33. Ancient Mai (Scary Senior Senior Council, but her expertise isn't combat oriented.)
34. Klaus the Toymaker (Next in line for Senior Council sans politics. Personal theory yet another mask of Vadderung/Kringle but till that's confirmed he's the youngest of the Senior wizards)
35. Donald Morgan (A measure between Harry and Ebenezar for most of the series. Survived Kemmler. A few Red Dukes. An ass but a badass)
36.Denarians (Short lived that go through their hosts.)
37.Carlos Ramirez (Young but officer of the Wardens. War vet. Survived Kemmler's heirs and the duel of Raith deeps and the Battle of the Bean)
38. Fix (Summer Knight. Could take most Fae, but Harry took him easily)
39. Lasciel/Hannah Ascher (If anything easier than he did Fix)
40. Elder Fae. (Cat Sith: Fought Nemesis hold, Elder Gruff, Red Cap)
41. Svartalves. (Focus isn't open combat but powerful independent nation)
42. Luccio (Was Captain, has fought of various Kemmler level sorcerors over a few centuries)
43. Black Court Elders (Based on Drakuls Crew)
44. Wardens (Chandler, Bill, Yoshimo. Capable fighters, not as good as they think they are)
45. Kemmlers Heirs' (Necro Bob, Corpestaker, Grevane, Wild West guy. Sorcerors.)
46. Monoc Securities (I feel like Gard could confidently take most Wardens. Healing abilities of trauma.)
47. Regular Red Court (Strong but obvious weaknesses)
48. White Court (Capable fighters with enhanced abilities. Don't have Monoc's healing.)
49. Ghouls (Strong henchmen muscles)
50. Alpha's (Minor talent one trick ponies. Rare for a 1 on 1.)


So some outliers that would take us above top 50.

Lord Raith. For most of history I'd have put him Blackstaff level. Kill with a touch protected by an outsider and command of the White Court, but now he's a weak puppet. Lara's bitch.
Kincaid. Until we see what his Hell Hound abilities are he's just a very effective soldier slightly above Murphy.
Alpha's. Minor talent one trick pony. Effective fighters, but only to a point.

Let me know if you agree disagree, and if so with whom and where you'd put them?

If people have a conensus on whose where I'll change it with the edits noted.

Rereading ghost story and noticed this.

"Child's stood up a portrait of grace. If he was a mortal he was deadly fast. Or a ballet dancer and somehow I didn't think he had some danskins stuffed in his suits pockets."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_qlpecuzc&ab_channel=MVPublicLibrary

so highlights: he's on Cinder Spires Chapter 24, 12 months first chapter
Working on a short story of Cerberus and Mouse for an animal shelter anthology
Nemean Lion has escaped so Cerberus hires Mouse for help
12 months Harry as a leader or liege lord.

If you were a Minor Talent in Dresden Files what would your Talent be?

Unfortunately I think mine would be Third Sight.

So 3000 guardsmen 1500 marines crew of predator tops it over to 5000
The spire is 10000 feet high 250 hobbles 236 are occupied
2 miles across each
Habble Landing has 2 times the population of most Habbles and 70% of the Habbles trade goes through it at some point, cause hiring a windlass is cheaper than using the central spiral which has taxes by each Habble.

Can anyone do the maths of the total population of the spire?

edit: I thought about putting this at the bottom but I'm trying to keep the quotes more or less chronologically by book.

Rashids analyses of the Senior Councils decisions and concerns in Summer Knight my have some bearing on Star Born and what they fear.

"We have set our feet upon a darkling path" he murmured. "A road that will grow only more dangerous. Our first steps are crititcal. We must make them with caution."
The cowl turned to Ebenezar and the Gatekeeper said.
"You love the boy Wizard MCCoy. You would fight to defend him. Your own dedication to our cause is not inconsiderable. I respect your choice.
He turned toward LaFortier.
"You question Dresden's loyalty and his ability. You imply that only a bad seed can grow from bad soil. Your concerns are understandable-and if correct, then Dresden poses a major threat to the Council."
He turned to Ancient Mai and inclined the cowl forward a few degrees. The Ancient replied with a slight bow of her own.
"Ancient Mai" The Gatekeeper said "You question his ability to use his power wisely. To judge between right and wrong. "You fear that DuMornes teaching may have twisted him in ways even he cannot yet see. Your fears too are justified."
He turned to the Merlin. "Honored Merlin. You know that Dresden has drawn death and danger upon the Council. You believe that if he is removed so will be that danger. Your fears are understandable but not reasonable. Regardless of what happens to Dresden, the Red Court has struck a blow against the Council too deep to be ignored. A cessation of current hostilities would only be the calm before the storm."
...
"Let him secure the assistance of Winter. If he does that should lay to rest your concerns regarding his ability LaFortier"
LaFortier frowned then nodded at the Gatekeeper. He turned to Ancient Mai.
"Should he accomplish this it should show that he is willing to accept responsibility for his mistake and to work against his own best interests for the greater good of the Council. It should satisfy your concerns ass to his judgement-to make the mistakes of youth is no crime but not to learn from them is. Agreed?"
Ancient Mai narrowed he rheumy eyes but gave the Gatekeeper a precise nod.
"And you honored Merlin. Such a success may do much to alleviate the pressure of the coming war. If securing routes through the Nevernever places the Red Court at a severe enough disadvantage, it may even enable us to avoid it entirely. Surely it would prove Dresden's dedication to the Council beyond a doubt."
...
"Then perhaps their fears are more justified than your affection, Wizard McCoy. We may indeed conclude that his appointment to full Wizard initiate may have been premature."

Some interesting theories and politics that could have bearing on Harry being Star Born and why LtW is so cautious about the political ramifications.

Curtesy of @morriswalters:
If you wish you may want to add this quote from Blood Rites
Quote

She touched my face again and said, "I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone. I hope that one day you will forgive me my mistake. But know that I am proud of what you have become. I love you, child."

Lash gives the first direct hints.

"I mean no insult by it, but you should know that your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time, Truth. Love That kind of thing. It isn't you fault of course-- but it does impose limits upon your ability to percieve and unerstand some matters.
...
She sighed. "Again you have only a partial understanding. But in the interest of expediency yes. You would have to cease living".
...
"because of the circumstances of your birth-because of *why* you were born Harry. Your mother found strength to escape Lord Raith for a *reason*."
...
"He Who Walks Behind *is* an Outsider, Harry. A terrible creature, the most potent of the Walkers, a powerful knight among their ruling entities, But when he came for you, you overthrew hi,."
...
"You have potential to hold great power over them. You may be able to escape the power now held over you. If you are sure it is what you want."

Cold Days various people mention Harry's growing knowledge, power and interest by various beings.

Mother Winter

"So" she whispered a moment later. "You have finally come to see what has been before you all this time."
...
"He knew certain names. He was not wholly stupid in choosing them or wholly wrong in using them."
mother Summer's bright green eyes narrowed. "Did he..?
"No" croaked Mother Winter "Not that one. But he has seen the adversary and learned one of its names"
...
"So many new futures unwinding"
"Too many Bright ones" Mother Winter said sullenly
"Even you must think better that than empty night."
...
"He is a weapon. Let him be made stronger"
"Or broken"
...
"If you choose to walk with me what is seen cannot be unseen and what is known cannot be unknown. It may harm you.
...
"You may never know a night's peace again. Knowledge is power, young man. Power to do good and power to do harm. Some knowledge can hurt. Some can kill."
...
"Even if it may haunt you? Harm You? Isolate you?"

[/quote]
Now at the time I just assumed Mother Summer was just talking about the Outer Gates but now with everyone being nervous about StarBorn maybe Mother Summer only showed Harry some of it a half truth only what he was ready. Very Fae like. Maybe Mother Summer thought she told him as much as she could and thought Harry would piece it together. Harry in this seen himself comments on the cripticness in his inner monolog.

"JUST TELL ME WHOSE SKULL TO CREAK WITH MY CLUB DAMMIT!"

Now Rashid's turn at criptic albeit more White Council stuff

"Still I can't recall the last time a wizard of your age managed the trip however it was done. You take after your mother."
I blinked "You knew her?"
"Those of us who spend any amount of time wlaking the Ways tend to develop a certain amount of camaraderie. We would have dinner every so often compare notes of our walks. And there were several of us who were friends of Ebenezar who.. took it upon ourselces to watch over her."
...
"You've become aware of the adversary" he said his one one of firm approval. "Excellent. I was certain your particular pursuits would get you killed long before you got a chance to lean."
...
"to say nothing of the problems you've created for yourself that you haven't found out about yet."
...
"Wait" I said "What problems? I haven't been trying to create problems:
"Oh" he said waving a hand. "You've danced about in the shadows at the edge of life now young man. That's no small thing, to go into those shadows and come back again-- you've no idea the kind of attention you've attracted."
...(Outsider lo down)
...
"I know precisely how it feels to be where you are... Precisely"
....
"I will settle matters between you and the Council which knows only as much about our roles as it needs to-- and that isn't much"

Vadderung conversation

"I'm sure it isn't an uncommon play among wizards" I said
Something in his eye flashed, an amused thought that went by almost before I could see it.
"Fewer try it than you might think"
...
"Nothing that significant just happens, Dresden"
...
"I'm aware of how important it is that the island be well managed. Most of the people who came to your party in Mexico are."
By which he meant the Grey Council.
...
"Wizard... you have been dead and returned. It has marked you. It had opened doors and paths that you do not yet know exist, and attracted the attention of beings who formerly would never have taken note of your insignifance
"Meaning what?" I asked
There was no humour at ll in his face. "Meaning that now more than ever you are a fulcrum. Meaning that your life is about to become very, very interesting."

Ebenezar gives us the footnote version

"Every couple or three wizard generations" Ebenezar said "the stars line up just right and what amounts to a spotlight plays over the earth for a few hours. Any child born within that light--"
...
"Power against the Outsiders" the old man growled "Among other things that their minds can't be magically tainted by contact with anything from Outside. Which means..."
(fight with Outsiders in which Harry has the penny dropped)
"Not until I get something on this whole starborn thing."
...
"I told you You were born at the right time and place. As a result you.. He sighed as if struggling to find an explanation. "Your life force resonates at a frequency that is the mirror opposite and cancellation of the Outsiders. They can't take away your free will. They're vulnerable to your power. Hell you can punch them and they'll actually feel pain from it.
...
"This starborn thing. It happens all the time?"
"Once every six hundred and sixty-six years."
"Why?" I asked him "What's it for? What's coming?"
"Lessons over for tonight. I already said more'n I should've"

Harry's penny drop moment

Was that why Nemesis for example had revealed itself to me but had never actually attacked me in an effort to take control of my thoughts and actions? Because it actually *couldn't*? It made sense grouped with my previous experiences with Outsides, where others had been disalbed by their attacks while I had still been capable of taking action. It meant that not only could I resist their influence but I could go up against these things, mind to mind, without fear of short-circulating my brain along the way.

So I'm collecting all the star born quotes I can find. Quite afew from Battle Ground.

Mab barely contains herself several times.

"He is *exactly* my weapon she hissed "By his own choice. Which is more than *your* people ever gave him. And they call the Sidhe wicked and deceitful."
I blinked and shot a glance at Ebenezar
The old man wouldn't meet my eyes.
...
"Immortality offers a significant advantage but it is no substitute for intelligence. Remember that young wizard"
Ebenezar scowled and opened his mouth.
"Should it for some bizarre reason ever be necessary" Mab said smoothly before he could speak.
 I stared back and forth between the pair of them for a second.
Yeah. Time for things to change.

Well Drakul reveals the most:

"Their immaculate beardlinesses have you in the dark even now? As one starborn to another I must say it seems unseemly in the extreme."
...
"I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren't telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do."
...
"Ill be open with you star-born."

LtW is scared enough of the truth and apparently has to do some political favours to reveal it:

"He's got a different set of priorities."
"Because he's starborn" I guessed
Listens to Wind looked at me sharply.
...
"There's some secrets that do worse than get you killed. A whole hell of a lot worse."
...
"I'll be your advocate. I'll speak on your behalf to the others"
...
"Thats how big this is boy. I a senior wizard of the White Council don't think I'm smart enough to make this call alone"
...
"The people I need to talk to? Make it a year."

River Shoulders knows but tries to stay out of it:

He looked uncomfortable. "Lot of the wizards who matter are near the end. Hanging on hard."
I tilted my head at him "Why?"
"Not the right erson time or place to tell starborn.
I pursed my lis. "Six hundred and sixty sic years" I said experimentally
River's craggy brows rose itself a feat of superhuman strenth "Huh" he said "You learned some things"
"I learnt that" I said
"We pretty close to that time" he said "Kinda promised not to tell you anything. Sucks. Necessary."
...
"There's plenty that you don't know yet. And maybe this story isn't mine to tell."

Mavra says

"Starborn are for the Master"

and Listens one apparently valuable enough for Corb and Ethniu to keep him around

"How many starborn are there wandering about this close to the endga-"

So Eb and LtW seem to be a bit guilty about keeping whatever it is from Harry. Given Ebs other major secrets were Blackstaff and Grandad it's gotta be bigger then those right?

Mab and Drakul think the White Councils manipulating even 'breeding' Harry with him having little choice about it.

Morgan the Bastard. Sorry I refuse to give him SnapeSyndrome forgiveness.
(edit add. I figured Morgans acknowledgement should be acknowledged.)

"But I don't like you. I think you are dangerous" His mouth twisted. "But I am no longer convinced you these things out of malice. I think you lack discipline and judgement. You have repeatedly demonstrated your willingness to put yourself in harm's way to protect others. As much as it galls me to admit it, I don't think you have any evil intentions. I think your questionable actions are the result of arrogance and poor judgement. In ther end it matters little why you do it. But I cannot in good conscience condemn you for it without giving you some sort of chance to prove me wrong."

It's basically the entire journal entry so reread and enjoy. It's a great addition to the lore:
https://www.jim-butcher.com/posts/2020/morgan-microfiction-rpg-art-and-more

So Maggie and Morgan were friends enough for Morgan to promise to look out for her son despite her shaky relationship with the council. A promise he broke regardless.

Dresden was vanished from all record.

The Adversary (who we know is Nemesis from Mother Winter) has pretty much cursed Dresden.

There were 'controls' that Morgan could trigger.

Harry could be a 'Destroyer' lets assume Kemmler and Drakul are Destoryers.

oh and that throw away line of 'web of conflicts' among the Senior Council could have been what LtW was talking about needing favours.

Alright relevant WOJ

And also what is Drakul a scion of?
Drakul wasn't a scion of anything! He was something entirely unhuman that got trapped in human form. Dracula was his half-human child, who naturally had enormous paternal issues, and wound up creating himself as the first Black Court Vampire in an effort to win his father's approval.
It didn't work out so well.

Well yeah there's only one guy who can soulgaze with a kraken and the kraken's scared of him, right.

Well essentially yeah. That was more a starborn thing but anyway. There you go free one for the audience.

Alright, so, then as much as we can get about Nemesis now that we can see it's taken someone particularly close to Dresden and his brother. Is there really just one way that it spreads from person to person/being to being or are there particular requirements that have to be met?

Not terribly. The only limit it has is how many places it can be at once, it can only be in so many places at once.

But it's more than a couple because we've seen at least a few at the same time.

More than a couple but there's a limit.

Less than forty thousand starborn.

Less than forty thousand starborn, correct. The whole point of the starborn is that they don't have to put up with the nonsense from the outsiders, stuff like Nemesis taking them over.

Priscellie: How long have starborns been a thing? Is it recent millennia or much further back?

Jim: Oh for many many many many many moons, as long as anyone remembers, including among the supernatural memories. That's been going since creation got started, it's sort of a well you'll see what it is later when we talk about it more.

How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.

WOJ on Kemmler being Warden

Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?

Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...

Priscellie: Oh god. *laughs*

Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.

Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?

Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.

Priscellie: Is that the only way out?

Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because amon the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I thing he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.

Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?

Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.

So thats every quote from the series or WOJ that I can find directly dealing with starborn mania. Discuss, critisize, correct, add or subtract. But if you need a question topic as most of the good topics do.

Why is everyone so nervous about telling Harry?

If it was just about Power, Why would Ebenezar, Listens and River feel guilty? Listens is a good guy a doctor and a healer, who doesn't want to hrut Harry and who isn't sure it's his call alone. Rivers thinks he owes Harry not just for protecting his son but bringing them closer, but still not for him to say.

Ebenezar. He's Blackstaff who kills thousands of humans the only time he's felt guilty about it was telling Harry. The other biggest secret was he was his Grandfather. Hell Ebenezar outright duelled Harry over White Court when he thought he was in the right.

Rashid and Vadderung both say beings are now watching Harry closely because he came back from the dead and implied because he's Star Born. The next book Harry actually meets a God of Death, Hades. Maybe Hades had to sign off on someone being brought back that they're worthy?

Mab and Drakul both seem to think Immortality is possible and maybe on the horizon for Harry.

(Ok so siigh personal note this post is close to 3000 words sorry for the info dump and I really hope I got all the damn coding and brackets right)

(edited:Added Morris's Blood Rites quote, Kemmler being Warden and Drakul being a Scion.)

(edited: added Rashids council discussion and Morgans admission of wrong)

So am rereading Proven Guity and there's a Lash quote thats always bothered me.

"I mean no insult by it but you should know that your ability to comprehend your environment is very strongly defined by your belief in a number of illusions. Time. Truth. Love. That kind of thing. It isn't your fault of course- but it does impose limits upon your ability to percieve and understand some matters."
... "To do so you would have to release your hold on mortality"
... She sighed. "Again you only have a partial  understanding. But in the interest of expediency, yes. You would have to cease living"

So what do you think Dresdens new understanding would be now that he's died or atleast 'ceased living' for awhile?

So one of my favourite theories is the reason Marcone has no trouble from local law enforcement is because he's made a deal on a government level.

It's happened before with senior Mob bosses.

What Marcone offers however is much more valuable as an informant then just organised crime activity. Marcone can inform on The Unseelie Accords and other supernatural powers.

Thats invaluable information for the US Government or even other World Governments.

Not to mention it just makes Marcone more powerful which he's always trying to increase.

Discuss.