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Messages - umdshaman

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16
DFRPG / Re: Vampire Powers
« on: April 16, 2014, 06:46:59 PM »
you end up with ridiculously big attacks against Discipline if you have, say, Supernatural Speed, Strength and Toughness all under Feeding Dependency.
Well, yeah, but I feel like that's sort of the point. It takes more energy to use those powers so it takes more will to avoid feeding if you do. Also, you can always opt not use a particular supernatural ability during a scene if you want to avoid taking the larger hit. (Not going to start an argument about what's better since OP was looking for the alternative; just pointing it out.)

17
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 14, 2014, 03:53:55 AM »
There are some serious issues with this but I think there's a good idea in there. Do you want a critique, or is this just for the sake of argument?

Mostly for the sake of argument. Obviously its "rough draft" but it seems like it gives you most of what you want (I probably wouldn't allow the free upgrade, personally, but that seemed important to you) but remove most of the things that bug me. Feel free to redesign and repost it if you think it might work better (or at least be an equal alternative), but I probably won't have use for it for a while.

18
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 13, 2014, 03:49:54 AM »
You just made a better Refinement. A better /dual/ refinement. At half the cost. I'm going to be kind and say that's quite unbalanced.
Not better. Different. I assume you're referring to Just That Good, so quick explanation of why that IS balanced.
Refinement provides either two specializations or two Focus slots per refresh. There is no restriction on where these are put. I've basically split that bonus across Evocation and Thaumaturgy (its actually weaker than Refinement if you don't have both, but that's on you). Both focus items and specializations have downsides of course, and here the downside is you can ONLY split it, you can only choose one bonus type, and you can only do it once. Ever.

Pretty much none of the other abilities are things Refinement even comes close to allowing you to do.

EDIT: Ah. I see your misunderstanding. I was trying to be clear with that but it's Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency, not Control, Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency.

19
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 13, 2014, 03:37:05 AM »
The basis varies depends on the magic. Mab's Unseelie Magic might be drawing on her realm or her mother or her own mantle or just nebulous greatness. The Merlin's ward magic might be getting it as a free extra for extreme expertise or burning a bit of his human soul or incurring some karmic debt.
Debt doesn't have to mean anything in-character because FP don't exist in-character. So the justification can be more or less anything.
Except that debt DOES mean something in character with Sponsored Magic (as I've pointed out before, just like Fate Points do mean something in character) and "self-sponsored" magic just borrowed the template seemingly without considering the narrative consequences. But I've pretty much gone over all of this before and really what it comes down to is that you think that agenda-related and other debt are the same thing, while I profusely disagree for reasons I've already stated.

And you can potentially justify the debt, sure, but Sponsored Magic has a single reason for all sponsored debt.
Since you mentioned the subject of Mab, she doesn't HAVE Unseelie Magic. She has "plot device-level magic" (per Our World). Whether it comes from Mab, the Mantle, Mother Winter or the abstract concept of Winter itself Unseelie Magic is something that only characters borrowing that power can have because its Sponsored Magic.
One of my problems then, is that "self-sponsored" magic borrowed this concept but didn't have a reason for it across the board other than that it was part of the Sponsored Magic template.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean, exactly.
Not really sure what got lost in translation. The FATE system is built on a narrative structure. When you read a book (Hero's Journey aside) typically the character is good at certain things (Skills) and most of the time she's going to succeed at what she's good at and fail at what she's not. Of course, its a game so we don't want the results to always be predetermined so we use the FUDGE dice, which only average 0. Typically when the hero DOES succeed or fail where she shouldn't its because of something in her background (Aspects). The hero usually gets beat up at the beginning (Compels) and fantastically outdoes all previous conceptions at the end (Invokes).
So... when you make a mechanic in FATE, you make it support the narrative. If it doesn't support the narrative (it doesn't fit or it doesn't have a compelling reason to exist) then its a bad mechanic (aside: This is why I don't think Soulfire is actually Sponsored Magic no matter what the RAW says).

For the sake of saving some argument, let me give a try at making what you want in a way that I would consider to be at least less problematic.

Excessive Specialization [-1]
For some reason, you've abandoned the traditional path of magical study. Maybe you never had a mentor. Maybe you're on the run from the White Council. Or maybe you're Mommy just always told you you were a unique little snowflake and you're going to be and to heck with the consequences.
Musts: You must have an Aspect which alludes to this ability (typically your High Concept)
Each time you take this, you must choose a field of magical study (eg: Ectomancy, Demonology). If you have taken both Ritual and Channeling in the same field you get a one-time refund of 1 refresh when you take this power. You may take this ability multiple times. It may not be applied to a category of magic (Warding, Summoning and Binding, Crafting).
* Just That Good. You gain +1 to Control OR Complexity and Power OR Strength and Frequency when dealing with magic in this field. This ability may only be taken once per field, not once per bonus type. This bonus stacks with itself and specializations. Control applies to both Thaumaturgy and Evocation magics.
* Combat Casting. You may cast relevant Thaumaturgic rituals at combat speed provided you draw all the necessary power in one exchange. You may take this ability once per field.
* True Ritual. You may use one of your rote slots for a relevant Thaumaturgic ritual. The Thaumaturgic rote automatically succeeds after a number of exchanges (min. 1) equal to the complexity of the spell minus your Control. All parameters (except target, unless the target is yourself) and including any bonuses from foci and the source of any extra shifts for complexity must be set when this power is taken. This ability may be taken once, plus one for any slots Rote Caster gives you. This ability may be combined with Combat Casting provided the rote takes one exchange.
* Rote Caster. You have gain a number of rote spell slots equal to your Lore that must be used for Rotes in the field of study.
* Easy Peasy. You may cast a single relevant rote for one less stress (min. 0) than it would normally take. You may take this ability once per rote.
* Of Course I Know That. You automatically succeed at any knowledge roll relevant to casting of spells in this field (eg: internal anatomy for Biomancy) provided the difficulty is less than your Lore.

I realize those abilities are kind of all over the map (and the refresh cost may be off because of it), but this basically reflects most of the things you'd want a specialist to be able to do generically without taking on any extra baggage.

EDIT: Added a couple clarifications including that bonus is +1 to Control for Thaumaturgy and Evocation OR a +1 to Complexity and Power.

20
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 12, 2014, 11:11:34 PM »
It continuously sounds like you came in here to tell people that they are playing the game wrong.

I have continuously said that this is my OPINION. Ironically this is exactly how Sanctaphrax sounds to me. But its impossible to have a disagreement without sounding like you're saying the other person is doing it wrong. Because that's exactly what you're saying. I will note that my first post in this thread was "Here's how I suggest doing it instead". Not "You're doing it wrong", just "I think this might work better". Once we got into "self-sponsored" magic itself, that's when I inevitably sounded like I was saying "You're doing it wrong", because... well... I kind of think "self-sponsored" magic IS doing it wrong. Doesn't mean people have to agree with me but I've had as many supporters as detractors and everyone is entitled to have a different opinion from anyone else.

I feel like we should maybe cut off part of this thread and put it in a new discussion thread about self sponsored magic, since the original question seems to have drowned a few posts ago.
I'd be okay with that. I tried to bring that up a few posts ago, but I honestly think OP has stopped watching anyway.

21
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 12, 2014, 10:22:13 PM »
I think I've been addressing what you said. You've been arguing that an agenda is a weakness, I've been arguing that agendas are the same as ordinary compellable aspects. Which aren't weaknesses.
Then we have a discord. (See what I did there?)

What I said about one opponent apples even more strongly to a group of opponents. Zone-wide evocations are great.
Haha. I think my example appled some effect after all. :-P

Also, stress recovers every scene. Not every session.
In my experience most fights, even epic ones, tend to end fairly quickly when evokers are involved because they hit hard and are fragile. Four exchanges is actually a fair while.
And that's kind of my point. If your epic fights are lasting four exchanges, you're probably throwing the wrong kind of encounters at people.

Yes they are. They're related, obviously, but the narrative doesn't have Fate Points in it.
The mechanics are subject to the narrative, not independent and not equal. That's what I'm saying.

And in my experience, the best way to make sure that a Power is balanced is by looking at it without considering the narrative. I'm pretty confident in this because I've designed a lot of Powers and watched other people design a lot of Powers. People who use narrative concepts to balance things tend to write bad Powers.
But most of them are. +2 to Lore when navigating the Nevernever IS a narrative balance. If it were just +2 for one refresh it would be too powerful, so its balanced by a narrative restriction. Being able to borrow debt without the narrative restriction of an agenda is too powerful. But really, the point here was the point above... if you make a Power that's based on another Power but it doesn't have the same narrative basis for one of its abilities it a bad power. In Sponsored Magic that debt is power borrowed from your sponsor. Where is the narrative basis for debt for "self-sponsored" magic? That's the most critical part of the question and the thing that no one seems to have answered.

The only reasoning I've seen for it is something to the effect of "drawing on inner reserves" but if that's the case that should just be a houserule that all players can do, although that's really what Fate Points are for in the first place. Fate Points are a resource management system. If there's no downside or restriction on taking on debt then you've basically wrecked the core mechanic of FATE.

22
DFRPG / Re: Lawbreaker Power
« on: April 12, 2014, 10:04:14 PM »
And I'm not thrilled by how it represents the consequences of Lawbreaking. The Aspect stuff is nice, but the loss of free will is the exact same loss of free will that you get for taking a Refinement. That doesn't feel right.

And I'm not saying that my solution works for everyone. I'm just presenting a reasoning for leaving it as-is. To me, it feels right.

23
DFRPG / Re: Lawbreaker Power
« on: April 12, 2014, 09:39:33 PM »
Lawbreaker doesn't do anything to prevent people from hacking and slashing and adventuring. It's an obstacle for interesting character moments and backstories.
I'm not saying it prevents them. What I am saying is that for most characters this should never be an issue in the first place. If you don't like it don't use it. I just happen to think it represents the Dresdenverse consequences of lawbreaking pretty well. Break a Law? Become a little bit more of a monster.

24
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 12, 2014, 09:29:12 PM »
I assure you, I'm not. I've been saying the same thing over and over again around here for years, this isn't just something I cooked up to annoy you.
That's kind of the issue. The thing you've said over and over for years doesn't actually have anything to do with the arguments I made. It's like:
"An apple is an apple."
"Sure. Did you know that potatoes are called 'apples of the earth' in French?"
"An apple is an apple."
"Okay... So is that a yes or a no?"
"An apple is an apple."
Just saying.

Far be it from me to tell you not to houserule, but that is what you're doing here. The book never gives any indication that you can use any other skill.
I'm gonna skip over the rest of the similar comments because the fact is it was an example of a power that could be used. It probably makes more sense to make custom powers. I just don't think "self-sponsored" magic is a good template for it for all of the reasons I've stated.

I also don't think we should bring up the semantics of min/maxing and Power-gaming, optimization.   I think the whole conversation will just devolve - it always does.
Agreed. It's not actually germane.

And it's a fairly trivial advantage.
Again skipping over the similar comments, most of your argument seems to be based on the idea that you'd only face one opponent once per session. And honestly, if you can one-hit (or even 4-hit) that big bad, you're just wasting your time when it comes to rolling the dice. (And actually, yeah, a Weapon:2 can have a pretty big impact at the end of a fight when stress has been taking and consequences used.)

Seriously? I don't think I've ever heard that interpretation before.
It's not really an interpretation. More of a house rule. Guns only have a range of 3 zones, but we never see Harry throwing Evocation at the ranges guns can shoot (or anywhere near); line of sight or not. Honestly, it would probably depend a lot on what the zones represent.

What does this even mean?
It means I get real tired of people treating mechanics and narrative as two different things in FATE. They're not. The mechanics are there to support the narrative but if the mechanics become to problematic, they should go out the window rather than changing the narrative. You can't have a mechanical balance discussion for FATE without also looking at the narrative impact and seeing if the mechanics even fit the narrative. In short, it was the summation of all of the other times I've said something about not separating the two.

25
DFRPG / Re: Lawbreaker Power
« on: April 12, 2014, 08:51:16 PM »
...the young wizard is rational enough to not kill his mentor, just wound him, so he can kill him with a knife. That's rather anticlimactic, and he doesn't do it because it's what he would do, he does it because of a mechanical reason, and I'd rather avoid that.
I wouldn't call that anticlimactic, personally. In fact, incapacitating him, then walking over and killing the helpless enemy with a knife is a MUCH more personal and thus gripping narrative. It's also not JUST mechanical. Killing his mentor with magic is the sort of thing that would bring the White Council down on his head, so there's a narrative reason too. Since lawbreaking essentially requires a conscious choice (intent arguments aside), I happen to think the power represents it very well.

In some ways, I think this is only an issue in the first place because a lot of people come from the hack-and-slash adventuring mentality of D&D. Magic or no magic, murder is not something characters in a modern society should be taking lightly regardless.

26
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 12, 2014, 08:43:40 PM »
Now, mind you, narratively it matters. But we're talking mechanics here.
It's FATE. The narrative trumps the mechanics.

It's not that big a deal. You're essentially just spending Fate Points in advance. And Fate Points are explicitly designed to change how the narrative (dice) goes
That's actually a really big deal. In fact, the RAW basically suggests that the only time you should be allowed to do it is that one per adventure (or perhaps even character) heroic moment. Aside from Sponsored Magic anyway.

Yes, but narrative drawbacks =/= mechanical ones. And have what, exactly?
You're the one who decided I was only arguing about mechanics here. I am arguing about a mechanical construct that is ill-suited to represent its narrative premise, as stated elsewhere. And "have what" is that if self-sponsored magic doesn't require you to already have another form of magic than its basically just a more powerful version of Ritual and Channeling. In my opinion, its a bad idea to just plain upgrade the RAW.

Opening a door to the Nevernever is already simple for a wizard to do with impunity. And it makes sense to allow someone to use Lore anyway to navigate the Nevernever. So, to get the +2, it would only cost 1 refresh, so...
http://www.jimbutcheronline.com/bb/index.php/topic,40855.msg2006067.html#msg2006067
And simple or easy are not the same thing as "with impunity" but its an example. Honestly, if that's what you're saying then there's no point to Improved Worldwalking at all.

Actually, the advantage kind of /is/ trivial.
Well, you're allowed to disagree.

And yes, an appropriate substitute /would/ have to be more powerful… like Self-Sponsored Magic.
GOTO 1. I'm not having the exact same argument again.

27
DFRPG / Re: Lawbreaker Power
« on: April 12, 2014, 07:09:26 PM »
Sometimes, it might just be right for the character to kill someone (or do something else lawbreakery). If you feel like you have to not do this, because your character would become an NPC for it, you will probably still kill the person, but you will look for a way to avoid the mechanical downside of it.

I feel like that's kind of the point though. It's like being a changeling and reaching the point in the story where you're like "I need more power to succeed." Knowing your going to become an NPC you're going to look for another way to do it, but in the end you might just decide that becoming an NPC to, say, preserve the natural order of the universe just might be the better option.
Likewise, with Lawbreaker, there are usually ways to avoid it. Killing them with not-magic, for instance. But maybe, instead, you decide to permanently change that character's mind; effectively neutering them or even making them one of the good guys. Maybe that's the sort of thing you think is worth becoming an NPC for. Of course, if you don't drop yourself to 1 refresh when designing your character this isn't immediately an issue. And the first time you break a law is a pretty major milestone so maybe the GM will poll the players at the end of the session/adventure and decide to raise the Refresh a point, just like maybe your GM doesn't feel like being a faerie doesn't have to make you a NPC. Of course, YMMV and maybe for your game its better not to have it, but personally I think it makes it a lot of sense and adds some mechanical "oomph" to consequences of breaking universal laws.

28
DFRPG / Re: Homebrew Sponsored Magic Advice (Consorting with Spirits)
« on: April 12, 2014, 06:52:35 PM »
Compels. Compels are Compels, agenda-related or not.
At this point it feels like you're purposefully misunderstanding. There 2 separate points.
* Mechanically, a compel related to a specific agenda is rather like having another aspect. Not completely, but sort of. In fact, I'm not sure why (templates aside) an aspect related to your Sponsored Magic isn't a Must. I'd probably house rule that. Anyway, normally the GM compels you to act in keeping with your character normal behavior in an inconvenient way (using the aspects). Since arguably your High Concept (if nothing else) will reflect your sponsorship, the GM is free to compel you to do whatever your sponsor feels you should be doing.
* Narratively, it doesn't seem to make sense that "self-sponsored" magic has a debt mechanic. With Sponsored Magic, you're getting an extra boost from your sponsor. With "self-sponsored" magic, its just there because its part of Sponsored Magic but there's not really any justification for your boost.

Ritual + Channelling is kind of a bad deal compared to Sponsored Magic. Focused Practitioners in general are kind of weak compared to Wizards and Emissaries.
A Focused Practitioner doesn't generally have both (not that they can't). They also take significantly less refresh cost than Wizards. And Sponsored Magic has narrative drawbacks. Plus not being strictly balanced doesn't mean there's a hole. And "self-sponsored" magic doesn't really fix that problem anyway, since it all requires that you already have it... or at least that was my understanding. If I'm wrong then I have one more thing to add to my list of complaints about it.

Worldwalker is a bad Power for a Wizard to take, but Wizards who walk worlds want something like it.
It's not as versatile as using magic but its actually a really good power, especially for a Wizard who takes regular day trips to the Nevernever. It costs more refresh to get all of the bonuses as stunts, plus it doesn't cost you anything (other than time between entry/exit) to use.

First up, they can't use Discipline.
Sure they can. "Hey, GM. I'd like to take Breath Weapon [Fire] to represent my character's specialization in Pyromancy. Can I have it use Discipline instead?" There isn't anything special about the skills the Powers in the book use. They're just the most appropriate to the way the powers are described.
[/quote]

Second up, optimization 101 tells you not to pay full price for redundant abilities. You'll pretty much always be better off with Refinement, or with something unrelated like Toughness.
Aside from the fact that "optimization" is just a polite term for "minmaxing" (which is not a good reason to design things a particular way and as a GM would make me that much more likely to nix a custom Power/Stunt) Breath Weapon isn't redundant. Magic costs mental stress; Breath Weapon doesn't. That advantage is not trivial at all.
[/quote]

Third up, Breath Weapon is just kind of weak in general. Low damage and short range.
The RAW doesn't really specify, but I'm probably not going to let you throw fire two zones away with evocation, either. As far as damage, in a lot of ways many low-damage attacks are better than a single high damage attack. If my stress boxes are filled (which I can do in 4 hits of any strenght, technically) then I have no choice but to be taken out or fill a consequence regardless of the amount of stress I just took. But, yes, that was just an example. An appropriate specialization substitute would probably need to be a bit more powerful than that.

29
DFRPG / Re: RPing faeries
« on: April 12, 2014, 03:29:05 AM »
Keep in mind, as well, that as GM you are the god of your own little petty world. Realize your faerie told an outright lie? ("No, there isn't a faerie waiting to kill you at the end of that Way.") Tweak the world a tiny a bit and now they haven't. (The faerie directed them to a completely different path while they were still concerning themselves with all the dangers on their intended route.) It can be... problematic. And you want to be careful how often or how badly you do this, but if you avoid making simple declarative statements you can generally avoid lying outright.

30
DFRPG / Re: Lawbreaker Power
« on: April 12, 2014, 03:23:17 AM »
I get why people don't like the idea of it, but in practice I feel like saying you're "forced" to might be overstating the case. There's nothing in DFRPG's mechanics that force you to kill someone when you take them out. And any GM who decides you've killed someone (or otherwise broken a law) without warning you its at least a potential consequences is kind of being a donkey. So, don't use magic to kill mortals (or remove their free will) and it shouldn't come up. On the other hand, if the GM keeps warning you you're going to kill someone and you keep doing it; you probably deserve that Lawbreaker power.

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