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Messages - Tami Seven

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166
Molly:
I think it is safe to assume that Molly manage to escape the cosmic taint of black magic while acting as the rag lady. The kind of taint that the Loa spirit sees in Harry's aura during DM.

Her problem is most likely the same as any soldier after a long and extremely grusome war campaign.

Molly's tainted just as Harry is. But like Harry, she has other factors to counter balance the taint. Her upbringing in a very religious family, her relationship with Harry and what he taught her, and her own sense of right and wrong. And now the taint might not be so much an issue as the mantle of the WL. Depends on which corrupting force is stronger and if she is stronger than both.

Kemmler:
It have to be noted that despite how corrupt Kemmler is, he still have free wil. Kemmler is still human.

It appears that free wil cannot be so easily snuff out. I believe that redemption is still possible for kemmler if he really wanted it, otherwise Harry, Molly and any dinarian have no hope of salvation. According to Michael even Nicodemos can choose the path of redemption.

Which probably explains why the white council have to use not magical means to execute kemmler and other worlocks. Those worlocks may be beyond the WC's power  to rehabilitate, doesn't mean that their free wil is completely gone.

Had kemmler completed the Darkhallow, he will become a god. Maybe at that point, killing kemmler will be consider the same as killing a vampire because he is no longer human at all.

Kemmler was a prime example of why the Wardens were created.  He was the bad one, the one that broke the Laws and delved into Dark Magic with both eyes open.

The Wardens swords are their protection against Black Magic, a way for them to dispatch a Warlock without being tainted themselves.


Thomas:
Thomas have dual souls. I suspect that doing black magic, the really tainting kind, will reduce his ability to control his demon half. Complete and utter corruption of Thomas's mortal free wil due to black magic usage would probably produce the same result as if the Rampire ritual in CY had succeeded. Thomas will be gone and only his demon half remains.

It is also have to be noted that a whampire's mind whammy, especially the wraith family brand is sort of seduction. In other words, their power entice a human, not compell them. As long as a whampire limits the intensity of his or her mind powers, it might not broken their preys free wil at all.

Of course, feeding too deeply, deep enough to put a mark on the prey's soul or even killing the prey entirely broke free wil. Doing so will cause adiction and more and more dependence upon the demon portion of a whampire's soul.

This would explain why a whampire's first feeding have to be lethal. It have to create that vital breach of free wil in order to entrench the demon half in a newbe whampire. This will also explains why Thomas cannot return to his previous feeding patern after the nagloshi is done with him. The adiction have run too deep due to repeat full feeding.

First point of correction, Thomas (and other WCV) don't have two souls. They have a demon parasite attached to their soul. Does the demon have a soul of its' own? Most demons probably don't.

Would Thomas using Black Magic be affected by the Taint? That is the question I asked, but you do have a good point. If Thomas' mortal soul was corrupted by the taint of Black Magic it might very well give his demon the opening it needs to take nearly full control. The Thomas we know would be gone for good.

Perhaps one of the reasons why there are so few WCV Wizards (JB once said there were some, but I have yet to see any of them). The risk of being tempted to do Black Magic, the risk of being tainted by it, might be too big a price. Even the darkest of WCV hold onto their mortal souls to some degree. They all know that if the demon did take over completely, it would be worse than what happened to Thomas in TC. They would be nothing more than predatory, feral animals. Not mindless, but not civilized in any way and certainly not themselves. 

167
*points out that Jim makes a big deal that such a backlash would not be remotely mystic or sentient, but rather something "which obeyed certain universal laws that governed its interaction with reality."*  Not that your wording implies otherwise, but I want to keep that point firm, because I might not have done enough to emphasize that in my posts.

Although in Backup Thomas introduces himself with, "and I'm a monster," Jim has said that unless a Wampire is really vamping out, they are hardly affected by a threshold because they are too mortal.  In Thomas' case not only is he a typically grey area wampire, but he tries reeeealy hard to hold onto his humanity, and I think this really matters when addressing your question.  This ties into my first possible reason why "Black Magic" vs Mortals matters."  If Thomas already had given into/embraced his hunger, he could already be so far twisted by it that some black magic would not make much difference.  Think Madeline.

Even from beyond the grave, I think Margaret LeFay is still challenging the Seven Laws. Should any Wizard go after him with magic, Thomas may prove to be a test case, a way to see if there are inherent flaws in the Laws and their applications. Can you be tainted by using Magic against someone not considered to be human?

Still, I see an element of belief in this. If a Wizard strongly believes that someone isn't human, even if they are, there may not be any psychological ramifications of using magic against them.

If Harry didn't see that the being hidden behind the veil of the wild hunt was human, the one he attacked, it would not impact his psychology. His perception of himself as a user of Black Magic.




168
Your thread, it makes me wonder about something.  Don't know if there has been a WoJ on this or anything like that.

If Thomas (as the best example of someone in the grey area between human and non-human) does magic, uses magic to harm another or otherwise violate one of the 7 laws, would he experience the same cosmic backlash as, say, Harry would?

The council has passed judgment on non-Wizards, human practitioners, and other low-level magic users before.  Thomas,  however, is not under their jurisdiction. I think that is commonly accepted as true.

But this is not really about the White Council as much as it us about the other aspect of Black Magic.

When Thomas does magic, he does experience a mild murphionic effect, as seen in Backup when he discussed the effect his magic has on his cell phone, which might be stronger if his magic was stronger. Something usually associated with human magic users. He is human enough to create that kind of effect. Is he, or someone like him, human enough to experience the cosmic/psychological backlash that can make someone a 'warlock'?

If so, then this could, potentially, open up a whole new can of worms for the White Council. If not, then does Thomas and other WCV (or other Non-humans, if there are any, in similar situation) have a built in 'Blackstaff effect' that keeps them from the negative repercussions of using magic to harm others?



169
Here is what Jim said:
Bingo.  It hardly seems fair, does it?

The Laws of Magic don't necessarily match up to the actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves.

The consequences for breaking the Laws of Magic don't all come from people wearing grey cloaks.

And none of it necessarily has anything to do with what is Right or Wrong.

Which exist.  It's finding where they start or stop existing that's the hard part.

Jim

If you read it carefully though, Jim appears to have said that Council's Law doesn't necessarily reflect the true nature of how [dark] Magic can effect your mind (my way of rephrasing his comments in this context). 

The below quoted post I made a couple weeks ago [edit, oh hey look, it's reply #26 of this very topic] goes through a lot of effort to outline how I think the books have explicitly shown how something like this (Harry killing non mortals) has effected him WRT the "actual universal guidelines to how the universal power known as "magic" behaves" Jim referred to in the above WoJ.
[/spoiler]

Edit:  Some context for that quote from the White Night scene where that passion was born:

I think this is pertinant because it directly shows Harry's empathy for a class of magical beings getting destroyed in a fit of rage.  To these beings Harry's the monster.

Note how this flashback happens near the end of the ghoul attack in the harbor in WN, and when he returns to the main narrative, Harry is going psychotic trying to strangle a goul, ignoring his own survival.  He would have drown without Thomas rescuing him.  Seems like a strong argument for the paradigm that even though killing non mortals isn't breaking the "Law" it can constitute black magic that warps the mind.

Also, the DFRPG forum mod made a truely excellent post on how "lawbreaking" can effect a character here, that I always recommend when people are discussing the topic of how "dark magic" effects the caster.

Finally, holy cow those DFRPG guys talk about law breaking a lot.

I know the talk is about Fae/Sidhe but it applies to this conundrum that always bothered me.

If Harry killed Ebenezar with Magic, he'd be a lawbreaker, a black magic Warlock destined for the chopping block. It would also affect him in other ways since Eb is not only mortal but Family.

If Harry killed Thomas with Magic, no laws would be broken. He would not be considered a warlock and no retribution would be sought. Yet, in theory, it should also have an effect on him because Thomas is Family as well.

Thing is, Thomas has free will, has a soul, and has the potential to 'theoretically' become human. Despite that, he is fair game even to his own brother.

I can see why Margaret LeFay had issues with the Laws of Magic.

170
I could be wrong, but I thought Ramirez got his third eye info in music form - we don't know about his soulgaze perceptions.

That's from a WoJ.

171
If it helps, I remember Ramirez remarking that he gets his soulgaze info in the form of music. I believe that's in TC.

We also know there have been Ramirez/Luccio and Ramirez/Molly soulgazes.

The music thing was a WoJ, IIRC.

I wonder if Harry and Justin Soulgazed, you'd kind of expect that they would have even if there is no evidence of it right now.

Harry almost Soulgazed an angel in Ghost Story.

He tried to Soulgaze Tera West, without success.

As far as Soulgazes Harry has seen from the outside, the only two I know of is Ramirez/Lara and Molly/Thomas. I don't remember Ramirez soulgazing Molly.

172
I'll say this, I don't think I could have killed anyone as easily as Harry did, even a Sidhe, unless it was in self defense.  Harry has had a lot of experience killing supernatural creatures. You can create a list of all the non-human, supernatural creatures he has killed and it would be a long one. This is even before the WK mantle. 


173
WAIT a second here.

Harry committed no crime.

Winter Law, which is where Harry was operating at the time allows such displays of power.  There was no crime.  Mab, the ruler of said realm, even approves.

Now from a human point of view and from a Human Morality view, it may have been wrong, but it in no way was a crime.

The First kill may have been sanctioned by Mab for the crime of spilling blood. The second might have been crossing the line.

174
You probably have this one already,  but in case you don't...

Whitten Interview

I just stumbled upon a 2004 interview.

I hope you don't mind me posting these here.  Just trying to be helpful.





175
But Harry was able to do the same thing to the ghost, and we're as sure as we can be that that was just a regular old ghost, nothing souly about it.

Are we really so sure about that? I mean, even Harry admitted that the Nightmare was not acting like any Ghost he'd ever heard of. Its possible at the time that, in Harry's ignorance, he may have not known the difference between being a ghost and being a disembodied soul.

176
I don't buy that every type of an out of body experience is separating soul from body.  Otherwise we'd have to include things like the talking stones that he and Eb have.

I'd describe that as psychic, like how Harry talked to Elaine in WK. The stones probably just boost the signal and provide a measure of privacy. 

Since the Nightmare was able to steal some of Harry's powers, I'd say that was more in line with the soul instead of just his 'ghost'. The repository of power should be in the soul or the body, not that residual essence that makes up a 'ghost' like we saw in GS.

177
The origional YLC thread

In brief, for the amount of buildup that was put into YLC, as a potential "Chekov's gun" (tvtrops warning) it sure didn't have much of a proportionate bang.

So my new thought was born from thinking about this recent comment from Tami Seven

Which made me wonder if Harry would, in the future find it advantageous to put his GS experiences to work by wandering around Chicago disembodied like he did in GS.  And then I remembered.  Harry's already done that!  He tracked Malvora in White Night in disembodied form via Little Chicago.

So what could this mean for the YLC question? Possible answers would run like...
  • Harry's experiences with LC helped prep his soul for his GS experience
  • Harry's GS experiences helped him gain a new paradigm that would allow him to utilize a new LC like spell/foci more effectively
  • I still haven't completely* ruled out the idea that whoever fixed LC saved it before the burndown in Changes (see #2)
  • Maybe we'll come up with more

*not that I think it's likely or anything.

I think that was what Harry did, kind of, separated his Soul from his body for a walk around Little Chicago. Same for what happened in Changed with Mab and the Stone Table, possibly even as early back as GP when Harry fought the Nightmare for the final time.

178
Interesting.

But how does it fit with the date of birth criteria?

Lash said Circumstances of his birth, more so than just the date IIRC. We can't consider the year as significant,  not yet anyway, since even JB is having a hard time deciding on his year of birth. We do know his date of birth, who his parents were, possibly even approximate time of birth if my own theory holds based on events in BR and how Maggie died either while giving birth or just after.

We don't yet know for certain what other Circumstances may have played into this, but I believe that there must have been others.

179
I've made the change, and you were right, it does look a lot better and easier to use. :)

I'm also thinking of dropping the following due to age:
BM = Bolshevik Muppet
CF = Chlorofiend

GG has been dropped, once we found out it's identity it seemed to go out of use.

Not Bolshevik Muppet! That was so funny.

BTW  you could use GG  for Ghoul Goblin,  the latest Graphic Novel.

180
I don't think it's been used it, but in case it does Come SG (Did you add that for theSkin Game?)

Al - Alfred (DR's other name). 

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