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Messages - Mira

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1711
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 06, 2021, 02:37:22 PM »
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After the movie is over, the trainers, chefs and drug dealers have all left (or alternatively the Fallen Angel). I can't keep up that level of fitness anymore.  But, I've learned a ton and with some effort I can keep it up at least to a degree.  Maybe I can't be as fit as I was with those true professionals guiding me each step of the way, but I'm a great deal more fit than I was before they came and left.

It doesn't work that way, I think the text is pretty clear on that.  Say you are thirty when you take up the coin, you physically stay thirty as long as you host the coin.  Give up the coin say when you are ninety, your body reverts to a ninety year old body.  It doesn't happen all at once, as in instantly but over several months your body will eventually become what ever age it is supposed to be.  That is what was happening to Cassius, no amount of exercise and diet is going to stop it.  Perhaps for a while, but a ninety year old body has it's limitations.

1712
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 06, 2021, 12:29:49 PM »
Marcone is not noted as having a major magical gift, and I don’t think a Denarian can make a gift larger, but they can focus it. The Shapeshifting is part of the Denarian power set, it is part of their powers but require a human to access it.

Marcone shouldn’t have been able to undertake the magic that he did, he simply couldn’t supply the level of power and no matter the level of focus he couldn’t make up for that. Somehow Marcone and Namshiel have figured a cheat, Marcone has perhaps taken another practitioners magic as the Nightmare did to Harry, or several practitioners building it up bit by bit.

Perhaps Marcone purchased it, a free will transaction acceptable to Namshiels free will limitations, Namshiel would know which talents were useful and could be fit together to make a more powerful whole he could train up. That would be very Marcone, buying his way to more power and would certainly appeal to a magic nerd like Namshiel, as it may be a novel solution to his reliance upon Nick providing suitably qualified hosts

I agree, I also think this is something Marcone worked up to over the last few years.  If Namshiel's Shadow was in his head, much like Lasciel's Shadow was in Harry's head, he could have been taken step by step as to how to get the most mileage once he actually accepted the coin.  Face it, Marcone has been lusting for that kind of power ever since Harry blasted the doors off his club back in Storm Front.

1713
DF Spoilers / Re: Kill Molly Carpenter
« on: October 06, 2021, 12:24:12 PM »
"Mollys story is not a happy one" imagine if he said the opposite, what could do more to take out tension from the story than reassurance that Molly's story will have a happy ending.

Ok lots of things could, but you get the point.

It has never been a happy one, Molly has a purpose now, but is she happy with her job?

1714
DF Spoilers / Re: Mother Winter Blackstaff Back
« on: October 06, 2021, 12:22:11 PM »


  Yeah,  I think if Mother Winter wanted her stick back, she'd get it.  Here's a thought, Mother Summer, Mab, and Titania know perfectly well that Eb has it, but are not telling Mother Winter.

Why? Because they have determined that it is most effective where it presently is.

1715
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 06, 2021, 03:25:17 AM »
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It meant to hurt him enough to bring him to his senses rather than permanently damage him, though. That's what I mean by shock.

Exactly, and from Harry's reaction and continued shame because of that burn, it straightened him out totally. 

1716
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 05, 2021, 07:13:04 PM »
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Though we can't really assume the faithsabre plays by the same rules as the physical Swords anymore - they don't HAVE a 'shock' setting. It's either use them worthily and they're supernaturally powerful, or use them wrongly and they're just metal, with their supernatural protection compromised thereafter by the act. Precedent isn't entirely useful here - all we can interpret is that a burn that shocked Harry out of doing something wrongful was considered worthy enough that the blade did anything at all. Maybe the there was something hinky about the situation that wasn't immediately clear, like someone else gave Rudolph a case of the brain scramblies to precipitate killing Murphy, or maybe the angel in the sword has latitude to do that kind of thing all the time now that this particular sword is in noncorporeal form.

If a Sword is misused, not only do they become just metal as Murphy found out, they break very easily.  A light saber isn't the same obviously, it burned Harry, so it felt he needed to feel the pain as a warning, but at the same time it seemed to know there were mitigating circumstances involved, i.e. the murder of Murphy before Harry's eyes and all the other pressures he'd been under, so it didn't burn his arm off or worse.  The angel in the Sword is most likely like Andriel, in that it knows everything that is going on and responds accordingly.

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I wonder if using earth to trap Rudy's feet in the asphalt and staking him out in front of the Fomor to finish him off would have generated the same response as squashing him with a shield. Arguably the latter wouldn't have violated the first law (any more than the Wardens binding someone so they can't resist a physical murder), but presumably heaven would still take a similarly dim view of it.

I don't think the Laws of Magic and Heaven's Laws are exactly the same.  Yeah, "Thou Shalt Not Kill" works for both, but the first has the addendum, "with magic."  Heaven's Law doesn't specify method, just no killing at all... Humans have twisted both to make exceptions, like in defense etc..

1717
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 05, 2021, 03:58:43 PM »
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My point is that the Alphas are proof that you don't need a coin.  I think that Alphas could turn into giant demon bears or grape apes -- just like Listens to Wind -- if they worked on it.  The Alphas are working on other stuff, just not grape apes, according to them.  Frankly, why would they?  wolves are almost ideal predators if you have a pack.  Grey proved to me that giant demon bears are not that practical.

Yes, but not everyone can become an Alpha, there is some other stuff going on as well.  If you don't have that pre-existing talent, without a coin, I don't think it is going to happen.  I think the bigger question is why do you think you need to turn into anything with the power and strength that comes with it?  That is the temptation, Nic is very careful to match potential hosts with their coins, he had good reasons to match Lasciel with Harry.

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Harry could learn to speak all sorts of languages too -- if he worked on it -- I can't be bothered to learn Spanish, not because of an lack of use for it, but because I'm too lazy.  But, I'd take a Matrix download of Spanish in a heartbeat.

Yes, if he worked at it, but then again how many people teach conversational Etruscan these days?  Yes, with Lasciel's help Harry could and was able to understand the Ghouls.
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In short, the temptation of the Coin is NOT the skills or the power per se, it's that they get to skip the hardship of EARNING those skills.  Hellfire might be the one exception.  You might not be able to channel Hellfire without that demonic bargain, whether express or implicit. 

No, reread the conversations between Lasciel and Harry, even after he mastered Hell Fire etc., she was tempting him with more power.. It isn't about earning those skills, Harry already had a pretty good fire spell, he had learned and earned it, Hell Fire really wasn't a short cut for him at all.
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In short, Marcone could become a Senior Council level wizard -- but he doesn't have the six hundred years of life and hard work it would take.  A Coin is a great short cut, so he gives into the temptation.  His further temptation is that if he could do X in a decade, what could he do with infinity?  I'm sure Namshiel TELLS him that if he ever gave the coin up, he couldn't do X anymore.  If Marcone believes him, then he won't be able to do X.  But, personally, I think it's a lie.  Once you learn to tie your shoes, magically speaking, you can. 

No, you pretty much lose whatever skill you got with the bargain.  Look as Cassius, first things first, when he gave up his coin, he started to age rather rapidly to whatever his real age was.

1718
DF Spoilers / Re: Is Cassius death curse in effect already?
« on: October 05, 2021, 03:01:24 PM »
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Take the shapeshifting.  Sure, Ursiel and Magog's hosts can turn into very impressive battle forms of grape apes and giant demon bears.  BUT, we know that the Alphas can do something very similar, on a smaller scale.  Perhaps the Alphas could turn into giant demon bears if they worked on that.  We know they are trying to see if they can use their shapeshifting to do other things -- like rapid healing.

I don't think so, the Alphas didn't need the coin to turn, and so far none of them have even tried to be other than what they are, werewolves.  As far as Marcone goes, at the end of the day, a wizard needs talent to power his spells.  The more talent, the more power, Thomas did say that everyone has some talent, but that doesn't make everyone potential wizards.  I think if Marcone had that kind of talent he would have used it to his advantage long before he picked up a coin.  If he dropped the coin he may still have the knowledge, but he'd lack the power to do any of the spells.

  Or a better example, when the Shadow of Lachiel was in Harry's head, he could understand many languages, read them, even speak them, after Lash sacrificed herself, he cannot do that, nor can he create Hell Fire anymore, though he can create fire..  That is the temptation of the coin, if you could do these things without the coin, why would you be tempted to pick it up?

1719
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 05, 2021, 11:09:56 AM »
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Harry was meant to be a weapon, Lea tells you as much in Ghost Story.  When that part takes over, Harry has the potential for evil and the sword can hurt him. That text is given to reader to make what happens to Harry understandable.

It still doesn't make Harry evil, a weapon is neither good nor evil, it is the hand that wields that weapon that does the good or evil.

1720
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 04, 2021, 09:44:25 PM »
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Ehhh, the swords aren't made to intercept evil acts though. They facilitate choice.

Which fits with what I am saying.  The burn presented Harry with a choice, the smell of sulfur and brimstone, the consequences of that choice, ice water to the face, "wake up, there are consequences, is this what you really want to do?"  Harry came back to himself, the answer was, "no, this isn't what he wanted to do."
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Harry's act may have been evil, using defensive magic to kill might have been a twisting of creation itself. But Harry's human, he's allowed to error.
Correction, it would have been evil had he carried it out, but the burn brought Harry back and he chose to let Rudolph go.  Kind of a play on a Holy Knight giving a Denarian a choice, surrender the coin and seek redemption or continue his or her evil ways.  The burn made Harry pause long enough to make a choice.. And yes, I agree Harry is human, humans error, and he had been under tremendous pressure and snapped.. Forgivable, even understandable, but if he had killed Rudolph
that bell cannot be unrung and Harry would have had to live the those consequences.

1721
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 04, 2021, 08:33:02 PM »
I've said it before and I will no doubt say it again: I believe the shock of Murphy's sudden depth slipped Harry's control over the Winter Knight mantle, demonstrated in text by the parallel with when he gave it its head in Cold Days, and the burn from the Faithsabre was to allow him to reassert his free will/mastery over the mantle. The burn wouldn't stop him from killing Rudolph, but it would shift it to him killing Rudolph, instead of the meat suit being piloted by the id-machine Winter Mantle.

Pretty much, the pressure and shocks that Harry had been under and received the the days leading up to witnessing Murphy's death at the hands of Rudolph sent Harry over the edge.  For a few minutes he was sent into a mindless rage, all he wanted to do was react and kill the one who killed his love.  The Sword burn was like getting ice water thrown into his face, the shock of it brought him back to himself and reset his brain..  Everyone loses it sometimes, Eb lost it when he was fighting Harry with almost tragic results, that reset Eb's brain and he reacted with the same shame as Harry, both know they should never lose control, but enough emotion, enough pressure, it happens.  Both Eb and Harry are basically good people, they are not monsters

1722
DF Spoilers / Re: How did the Denarian know!?
« on: October 04, 2021, 04:09:08 PM »
He could have Googled it.  But in Skin game Anduriel is clearly listening to Harry and Harry discusses it with Murphy.
Very true, but before that happened Lasciel was set up with Hannah, all I am saying is he could have gotten wind of it before Harry told Murphy.

1723
DF Spoilers / Re: How did the Denarian know!?
« on: October 04, 2021, 02:10:03 PM »
Harry told them.  He discussed it with Murphy.  Anduriel was listening in.

I don't think Harry had to tell them, depending how well Mab hid the knowledge of it, it was out there for Anduriel to find out about.

1724
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 04, 2021, 11:00:42 AM »
It has nothing to do with cutting anybody any slack.  The sword hurt him not because he was a monster.  It hurt him because the act was evil. Frankenstein was a monster but he was not evil in an classic sense.

No, if he were a monster, the sword would have cut off his arm.. It didn't.  Earlier in Peace Talks Harry didn't feel anything from the blade during that practice session with Michael and Butters.  If Harry were a monster it would have burned him then, it didn't.  The Sword acted like a shock collar, it zapped him good, it brought him back to reality, he stopped, a monster wouldn't have.  In the classic sense, angels are monsters, so what does that prove?  Frankenstein's Monster was not evil in the classic sense either, he was considered "unnatural."

1725
DF Spoilers / Re: Mistakes Harry has made that will come back
« on: October 04, 2021, 12:05:33 AM »
Harry's a monster.  Showing remorse doesn't mean anything. A man might show remorse after beating his wife to death. It makes him no less a monster. The day might come when Butter's or someone isn't there.  And then what? And this isn't the first instance of Harry going into a killing rage.

A true monster in my opinion is a psychopath and or sociopath, Harry is neither.  A monster wouldn't have demanded that the people hurt and killed in the battle be compensated.  People lose their tempers all of the time, that doesn't make them monsters.  We tend to cut Rudolph a bit of slack for killing Murphy because he was paranoid, scared shitless, and totally careless.  Yet, many aren't willing to cut Harry a bit of slack, react, yes, but with merely a flood of grief, not violent retaliation.. That makes him a monster some seem to think, but left out in that scenario is the kind of pressure Harry was under at that moment,people were dying left right and center and he couldn't do much about it, then Murphy was killed before his eyes, he snapped, everyone has their breaking point.  Sanya and Butters know this, if they thought for one moment that he was a monster, they would have dispatched him, the Sword would have instead of a mere slap on the wrist in the form of a burn to bring him back to the job at hand.

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