This could give credence to the theory that BELIEF plays a part in the creation of a Mantle.  Assuming Saint Nicholas was a Mantle.

Day One Spoilers:

I think the thing we are forgetting here is that Saints are labeled Saint AFTER they have died.

Having the power to lead a mob against BCV Elders is an indication that someone could be a Saint, but I still think that being part of the organization (the Church) that "owns" the copyright to the term Saint is a pretty big deal when you are trying to apply it to other people.

By definition, only a follower of TWG or TWC can be a saint.

This doesn't mean that others cannot throw around saint-like powers.

I know I'm kind of wrapped around the axel with this definition, but I think it's important.

I am not forgetting it, I am intentionally ignoring it. In this particular topic, my interest is in how someone can obtain the power to lead a mob against an Elder of the BCV (~30 of them can take on Mab and at least tie, if not win) and hope to win. There are known avenues to power (being a wizard or a Knight, for example) that can handle this. What did Jim mean when he said a "saint" could also pull it off? If we assume he didn't mean a dead person as a leader (a reasonable assumption in my mind), then we have to assume Jim is working from a definition of the term "saint" that deviates from what's traditionally accepted. Therefore, we are trying to define the bounds of what seems reasonable for this new definition of saint.

Going back to the old definition of saint, while a good starting point, does not appear reasonable to me as a final destination, if we are already throwing out one of the main requirements (being dead), what other requirements can we also throw out? Does it need to be a follower of TWG, or can there be saints from other religions? Is a pious life (however that is defined by each religion) necessary to be a Saint, or just calling upon a Higher Power in a time of need? Is Faith required? These are all interesting questions to ponder precisely because we know that the traditional definition of sainthood does not apply.

Here are the facts, Harry consorts on a regular basis with an archangel, ordinary people don't do that, no other wizard that we know of does that... The only ones in the Dresdenverse that seem to are Knights of the Cross, in traditional parlance, having an archangel appear to you at all puts one in the running for sainthood.

The key part of that sentence is "that we know of".

Most of the older wizards have got their own crazy background of powerups which they do not advertise. Listens-To-Wind's shapeshifting isn't purely a matter of wizardly skill (though his healing abilities are), for example.
But here's the key thing about people of power in the Dresden universe (and in the real world): the truly dangerous folks do not advertise. Not ever. They have no need to show off, and constantly displaying how scary they are would be counter to their own interests. [/snip]
All the senior wizards have got something up their sleeve, and every single one of them is hiding it from all the others. If they don't know about it, they can't plan for it, and the "knowledge is power" wizard crowd is all about planning for things.
But we are coming up on the time when people are going to have their backs to the wall and we're going to start seeing what they've got. And I've been looking forward to writing it for nearly twenty years. >

Harry was made custodian of the Holy Swords, for whatever reason, he is being used as an instrument for the selection of Holy Knights, even one night wonders...

Hm, that brings up an interesting question in my mind: was the original Merlin a Saint?

• An absolute dedication to their faith in the "Higher Power" (hear after called "HiP"*) and absolute dedication of their life towards their saintly mission for the HiP.
• Demonstrated Sponsorship from a HiP resulting in ass kicking, that is wholly attributed and attributable to the HiP's will channeled through the Champion Saint and their faith.

In my mind, point 1 above could be described, from a strictly technical standpoint, as a person turning themselves into a conduit to thaumaturgic magic, no? Basically, living a righteous life in accordance to a HiP means that the HiP can pour Power into a saint to answer their prayers.

By the way, I also want to say that although I find this line of theorizing very helpful, it bothers me because I can interpret it to mean that Proven Guilty Harry was a Saint of the Summer Court when he used Summer Fire to blow off half of the Winter Well Spring.  Contemplation of Harry channeling Winter power brings up similar issues.  IMO, my first requisite in reply 98 is a must for defining a Champion Saint, in that it requires faith and dedication to the HiP, something Harry lacks in both instances. 

On the one hand, if we compare what sometimes happens to the Knights, where they literally become nothing more than Instruments to a HiP to what Harry did with Summer's Fire, there does appear to be a difference, namely, that it took Dresden making a Choice.

On the other hand, Lily did wind up naming Dresden as an esquire of the Summer Court as a result of his actions, and did promise him that he could call upon them to grant him a Miracle of his choosing...

When contemplating Winter Knighthood, I find it interesting to note that the Mantle only works so long as Dresden follows Winter Law (their Commandments, as it were), and that the more Dresden allows the Mantle to shape his thoughts, the more he dedicates himself to acting in line with the Mantle, the more powerful he becomes. Make of that what you will.

And Forthill? Like I said, there's an Angel ready to escort his soul (and willing to face off against Lucifer for it, if necessary), should he die, and he's served as a conduit for Divine Intervention in the past. Harry uses him as a supplier of Holy Water capable of hurting Blampires.

Do you think he could lead a mob to take out an Elder of the Black Court?

Like I said earlier, I'm kinda partial to assuming all pantheons play by the same rules, even if they appear to be playing different games. And there does appear to be some similarities to what happens to Knights of the Sword and what happens when one is ridden by a Loa in the Vodoun religion...

From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane.  By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.

On the other hand, he was also at exactly the right place and the right time to babysit Michael's kids when Michael and Harry needed to rescue Charity in Grave Peril. That does seem to qualify as Divine Intervention, even if it isn't sponsored magic per se.

I like where your head is at, but I sorta feel funny about trying to model Sponsored magic as a Thaumaturgic effect. 

My first instinct usually is to assume the same rules apply for everyone, and the differences are a function of scale, rather than different rules for different people. So, I'm basically proposing that while Father Forthill can serve as an instrument for TWG, someone whoes personality and lifestyle isn't as aligned with TWG couldn't have been moved to be in the right place at the right time.

Thoughts? Does anyone think TWG and company can apply their coincidence power to people/beings not aligned to them and / or previously connected to them?

...huh, after writing that, I suddenly realize that I'm basically applying the Fae model to TWG, aren't I? By which I mean, that Fae Queens can't kill people who aren't somehow connected to the Courts.

From an objective standpoint, in terms of Heavenly Sponsored Miracles I think Harry is scoring pretty high, especially if we are discounting Miracles accomplished via the Sword (per the context in the WOJ indicating they are separate things) or a Loaner Jetplane.  By contrast Father Forthill has never done anything more "miracle" substantial than vaguely sense a ghost.

Ooh, that's a good litmus test! Of everyone involved in the Dresden Files, who could Uriel grant his Grace to? I assume that if one who wasn't compatible were to receive it, they would run the risk of blowing up. Also, once granted this Grace, who would proceed to not cause Uriel to Fall?