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Messages - Cozarkian

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31
Nemesis seems to infect mortals and immortals alike, and will doesn't seem to be a part of it.
 Perhaps this argument could be made with a mortal; I'm not sure that it could be made to a being without free will.  Your statement seems to imply that Mab's will is that much stronger than Maeve's was, which is a fallacy - neither have free will.

Do you have any passages which can support Mab as infected?  Because I can think of a ton which imply that she isn't, including pretty much all of Cold Days.

Creatures without free will still have will. Vadderung, the Red King, and Mother Winter all demonstrate the ability to paralyze Harry with will alone (each time Harry gets progressively better at dealing with it - not at all, with help, and by himself). Mab absolutely has stronger will than Maeve. Also, Maeve didn't want to resist Nemesis. She wanted (the illusion) of free will and accepted it freely.

PG and CD both raise the issue of Mab being potentially infected. The story plays out in a way to demonstrate that Maeve was infected. My theory is that this could be misdirection from JB. We are meant to believe that only one of Maeve or Mab was infected when secretly they both are and the difference is that Maeve welcomes it and Mab resists.

32
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm's murder
« on: April 12, 2019, 03:05:49 PM »
Also, the heart exploding spell was not a "cause problems with the circulatory system" spell.

It did one thing: It rips your heart physically out of your chest. It grabs the big hunk of pumping muscle in your chest, specifically and exclusively, and makes it leap out of your chest.

Busting a blood vessel in a totally different part of the body is not the same thing. I'm pretty certain that Harry says his dad died of a brain aneurysm.

It's like you have one guy who was shot with a rifle that ruptured his lung, and another who choked to death, and concluding the one who choked was killed by a weaker version of the rifle because they both died because they couldn't breathe.

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of it as a spell that super-pumps the heart so suddenly it explodes.  A lesser version of such a spell might cause the heart to work hard enough to rupture an aneurysm but not to explode the heart. However, such a caffeine-overload spell doesn't really explain the hole in the chest. It is a heart-ripping spell, not a heart-popping spell.

33
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm's murder
« on: April 11, 2019, 07:40:18 PM »
Aneurysms are a problem in the circulatory system. They don't necessarily have anything to do with the brain. It actually makes a lot of sense that a weak heart-popping spell might look like a ruptured aortic aneurysm.

My problem with the theory is it is boring. We already had the story where an earlier event was practice for a larger version of the spell. Why do it again?


34
DF Spoilers / Re: Malcolm's murder
« on: April 10, 2019, 10:58:34 PM »
Didn't he die with a smile on his face? 

That would suggest White Court vampire. It's quite plausible that Lord Raith ordered his death because he was pissed about Maggie's death curse and decided to kill her family as punishment. If Raith assumed Harry died in child birth, he could have just given orders to kill Malcolm Dresden without realizing there was also a child to kill. It also could have taken Raith awhile to discovery that it was Maggie that was the cause of his curse, which would explain why he didn't go after Malcolm immediately.

35
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Justin have been betrayed?
« on: April 10, 2019, 10:51:47 PM »
Infection should have been obvious by then,

Unless it was a recent infection. When Harry ran away, HWWB found him very quickly. What if Justin learned HWWB was in the area and then found out Elaine had skipped school and was acting strangely? Justin concludes her strange behavior is the result of infection (and he could be right) and conducts an enthrallment ritual to cleanse her. In GS, Harry and Molly have practice mind-wars to train in mental defense magic. It follows that Nemesis infection, which seems very similar to a form of enthrallment, might be countered by actual enthrallment magic.

When Harry gets home, Justin wants to test him too. Again, because Justin recently learned that an Outsider recently arrived in the area. When Harry runs away, that confirms (in Justin's mind) that Harry must have been recently infected. When Harry comes back, Justin tries to cleanse him. When Harry fights off the enthrallment, Justin decides to open a gate to the NN, push Elaine through where he knows someone from Summer will be there to help her, and then either died before he could escape himself or took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

I can think of several reasons why Justin decided to let Harry win after Harry resisted. First, Harry resisting the enthrallment proved he wasn't infected. Thus, Justin knew Harry was an innocent and didn't want to kill him but lacked the energy to incapacitate him again without hurting Harry. Second, with the house burning down and the heavy use of magic, Justin knew he wouldn't be able to subdue Harry, enthrall him to cleanse him and then hide Elaine and Harry without the White Council finding out. Or third, Justin was surprised by the display of power from Harry and was concerned Harry's new power might be from a deal with Outsiders. Thus, Justin couldn't be certain he could defeat Harry and focused his efforts on saving Elaine.

How would enthralling someone test them for Nemesis? In GS, we learn that Harry has been training Molly in mind magic in unsanctioned ways to defend against mental invasion magic. The way Nemfection works seems highly related to enthrallment, so it seems likely that enthrallment magic would be the most effective way to discover or reverse Nemfection.

If the above is true, then why did Justin wait so long? Well, enthrallment magic isn't benign and likely has the potential for permanent damage. Perhaps it is worse on young people so Justin wanted to avoid it as long as possible. Maybe Justin didn't ask Elaine to stay home from school. Maybe she did that on her own. Justin found the behavior suspicious and having also seen evidence there were Outsiders in the area, had reason to believe (perhaps correctly) that Elaine had been recently infected. When Justin tried to explain, Harry ran away instead of listening. When Harry came back,  Justin thought that Harry had also been infected and tried to enthrall/cleanse Harry. When Harry resisted the enthrallment, maybe that was sufficient proof he wasn't infected. Having discovered Harry wasn't infected, Justin didn't want to kill him, but as Harry provided no opportunity to explain, the best Justin could do is push Elaine into the NN where he knew someone from Summer would be waiting to help her and then took advantage of Harry's attack to commit non-permanent suicide.

36
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 10, 2019, 10:20:16 PM »
From the Wikipedia.Just as an aside, the bit about the Mab being unable to lie, is a shortcut.  More properly she can't speak a direct lie.  Here is an example of a lie of omission from Summer Knight.  It's a play on his expectations.

GS does not have the structure of a lie by omission. Here is an example of a lie by omission: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (but I don't promise I won't hurt you just for spite)." Here is an example of a direct lie: "If you enter this deal, I, Mab, promise I won't hurt you as punishment for rejecting my request for a favor (unless I disagree with your reasons for doing so)."

The GS quote takes the form of the latter: "He is mine to shape as I please (unless he exercises free will)."

Also, again, it doesn't really matter how and why Mab was able to say what she said. What matters is that Uriel would not have said she her words were lies when he knows she can't lie and when he knows that Harry knows she can't lie. Here's the form of the seven words: <Factually questionable assertion that has to be justified by equivocation>, <very important truth>.

Here's the form that Uriel would have used: <Factually accurate assertion>, <very important truth>.

Here are examples of how that could have been done using only seven words:

Wrong, . . .

No, . . .

False, . . .

Incorrect, . . .

Exaggeration, . . .

Hyperbole, . . .

Deception, . . .

Deceiver, . . .

The speaker chose the worst possible word to use in the situation. Cosmic master minds of manipulation don't do that.

37
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 10, 2019, 07:27:53 PM »
Harry could be wrong.

Also, Mab can learn. Mab could believed have believed that she could make Harry her monster in GS and then, when Harry defied her, she learned that she was wrong and obtained a better understanding of free will.

38
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 10, 2019, 07:25:06 PM »
In addition, take into account the comment to which Uriel (because it is Uriel; he's not about to go and rope some lower being into lying for him, especially considering the circumstance with Collin Murphy) responds to:

I'm not suggesting he did. I'm suggesting he used a proxy and didn't have control over the precise seven words used, only that the speaker was limited to seven words and that those words should be used to deliver the message that Mab was incorrect. This would be similar to the TWG inspiring the Bible but not writing it. It's also similar to how Mab used proxies in the very same story. Unlike Demonreach, who appears to have literally spoke through his proxy, Mab merely gave her proxies (Leah and Inez) instructions/inspiration regarding what she wanted Harry to know. Mab's proxies actual words were their own.

Cozarkain - I get the conundrum you're talking about, but I think you might not be giving the idea that Mab's lie is a lie of omission a fair enough shake.  Faeries cannot speak lies; however, they do nothing but lie through omission.

In the Mab quote you provided, the first sentence is true, the second is true, the third is false but Mab believes it to be true. The WOJ in the post above yours proves that Mab believes the third sentence to be true and is not merely lying by omission. Also, the question here isn't actually whether Mab was lying. She wasn't, because she can't. The issue is that the speaker called Mab a liar, which conflicts with our understanding that the Fae can't lie.

The first question is whether Uriel could have called Mab's words "Lies" without bearing false witness. In response, others have argued that the word lie has multiple definitions. I disagree that the other definitions apply. The DV, at least when talking about the Fae, uses strictly the traditional definition (lies of omission, by definition in the DV, are not lies). It is fact that the Fae cannot lie, period. The only definition applicable in the DV (at least when discussing the Fae) is the traditional definition. Switching to another definition is equivocating (an informal logical fallacy).

I simply do not believe Uriel, a being with cosmic truth with a perfect understanding of the lie-prohibition on the Fae, when speaking to Harry, a person Uriel knows to also understand the lie-prohibition against the Fae, would equivocate on the definition of lie. That is especially true given the circumstance that Uriel was not attempting to mislead Harry but rather was attempting to educate Harry on a very important truth - that Harry still has free will even after becoming the WK. It simply doesn't pass the smell test.

Therefore, in my opinion, it was either a very minor and isolated incident of bad writing, or it was a clue that Uriel was using a proxy in a story where proxies were an important theme.

39
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 10, 2019, 06:17:23 PM »
I had forgotten.  Thank you.  However it doesn't change anything.  Cozarkian would have me believe that she is ignorant of the nature of her Knight. That's like owning a gun and not understanding the safety.  Rereading the selection where he awakes in the cave reinforces my belief.

First, I was not asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand her Knight. I was asking you to believe that Mab doesn't understand the full extent of the power of free will. Specifically, she doesn't understand that Harry giving his oath and accepting the Mantle by his own free will doesn't make him hers to mold. She doesn't understand that the Mantle can be conquered even while desiring a Knight that will fight it as long as possible.

On second thought, however, it is indisputable that Mab does not understand her Knight. I don't recall if it is text or WoJ, but we have definitive proof that Harry surprises Mab. She probably has a better understanding of Harry than he does of himself, but there are some things about him she doesn't understand.

I'm not sure the gun analogy is accurate, but if it was, I point you to the Molly short story. As Winter Lady, Molly is absolutely carrying around a full arsenal of weapons without understanding the safety features on most of them. Mab has a lot more experience than Molly and has learned the safety features for most of the Queen's weapons, but it is possible she still doesn't fully understand one or two.

40
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 10, 2019, 05:58:40 PM »
Cozarkian - pretty much my thoughts exactly. It makes the most sense based on the available knowledge we have. Though I might add, I do wonder if Justin gave up on Harry as much as we thought. I wonder if the molding of Harry is still on-going, especially the way Leah talks about it. But as you say, he already has one starborn.

True, Harry might still be viewed as a bonus worth getting if you can, but also expendable if it gets in your way.

41
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 10, 2019, 05:56:43 PM »
Kemmler may have thrown a Death Curse - believe that there is a theory floating around that his Death Curse was the Tsar Bomba explosion.

The other side of that theory is that the Tsar Bomba explosion may have been one of the attempts to kill Kemmler.

42
DF Spoilers / Re: Could Justin have been betrayed?
« on: April 10, 2019, 05:47:51 PM »
Anyway, that scene, as described in Ghost Story, makes me believe that Justin had to alter his plans because something happened (or was about to happen), and his timeline had to radically shift. For whatever reason, he absolutely had to have Harry and Elaine under tight control, now.

Another possibility is that Justin wasn't entirely bad. He was an "end justifies the means" kind of guy fighting against the Outsiders. He was training two Starborn to assist in that battle. The enthrallment could have been a method that Justin and his associates (including Harry's mother) had designed to test whether a person has been nemfected (and perhaps free them if they have been). Justin discovered evidence that an Outsider (HWWB) was in the area and needed to make sure that Elaine and Harry were free from influence. When Harry ran away, Justin had to assume Harry was either already compromised or would be soon.

This would mean HWWB wasn't actually sent by Justin to kill Harry. HWWB was Justin's enemy and was trying to trick Harry into killing Justin.

In sum, this theory would mean Justin was a misguided good guy, the kind that would use a darkhallow to save a little girl from Red Court vampires, the kind that Harry almost became. Of course, that would mean Justin probably isn't Cowl, unless there is some really twisty reason a misguided good guy would give a nemfected Athame to Leah.

43
DF Spoilers / Re: Justin is alive. Justin is Cowl. THEORY
« on: April 09, 2019, 03:19:17 PM »
I can see how you got to that thought, my bad. I wasn't trying to imply that Harry killed Justin with mundane methods rather than magical ones. I was trying to make the point that I don't think he would have succeeded at killing Justin with magical means generally, and so something is unusual and doesn't add up about the duel.

Simple. Justin wanted to die. Prior to his death, Justin was in the process of training two potential starborn. One, Elaine, had already been successfully enthralled. The other, Harry, had proved to be too troublesome to be worth the additional effort as Justin only really needed one potential starborn, so Elaine was sufficient. The next phase in Justin's long-term plan required him to fake his death so he could disappear from the public eye. Since Justin knows how to actually come back from the dead, Harry's attack provided a convenient cover-story.

44
DF Spoilers / Re: Curious passage in Summer Knight. Justin evidence?
« on: April 09, 2019, 03:00:32 PM »
And remember, there is an ongoing undertone that Summer are really trying to kill Harry, and seem to have very odd links to the bad guys.

Oooh, elaborate please (probably in a new thread). The whole Summer trying to kill Harry thing I just thought was a natural result of Mab's use of Harry in Summer Knight, which then lead to Titania hating Harry for killing her daughter, and was followed by Mab's continued interest and use of Harry. Also, are there links to the bad guys other than Aurora? Because Leah and Maeve also got hit by the bad guys, so I don't think Aurora shows a special connection to the bad guys. If Leah went to Bianca's party, it's possible a summer representative was also at that party, and that whoever that was became the source of nemfection for Aurora.

Corpsetaker's death is an interesting case study. I think because Harry shoots him/her in the back of the head with no warning is the most likely reason that there was no Death Curse leveled at them. Whether Corpsetaker used a Death Curse as a means of continuing in the Between is another matter. Although I would point out, it was not necessary at all for Dresden's shade/soul to do such a thing to be able to be a part of events and still have a form of magic. He did have some pretty top-tier help though, and his body hadn't died so there are some differences. Though as Mab says, "Death is a spectrum, not a line". So my theory is that even if Justin had "died" it doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to come back again through his knowledge of Necromancy (assuming he is Cowl/can perform). I think it is reasonably apparent in the DV that you don't instantly go to beyond, or cease to exist. You soul/spirit carries on and exists and functions at a higher level. Which makes sense in a story that involves Necromancy and multiple afterlife destinations.

Harry stepped off the tracks - avoiding the southbound train - straight into purgatory and was sent back by Uriel. I don't think that was an option for Corpsetaker. Uriel wasn't going to help Corpsetaker and I don't think Lucifer would have either. Thus, Corpsetaker must have had some magical way to keep his/her spirit from passing on. It's probably not so much that Corpsetaker used a death curse to become a spirit, but rather that if Corpsetaker had used a death curse, he/she would have been unable to avoid what comes next. (I could be way off here - did Kemmler throw a death curse? - of course, Kemmler was better and probably had multiple ways to avoid what comes next.)

45
DF Spoilers / Re: Angelic intervention in Fool Moon
« on: April 09, 2019, 02:37:32 PM »
Not necessarily. Here is the definition of "lie" I found:
If the seven words were using the second definition of "lie" then Uriel is in the clear to say them. We have a WoJ that Mab could say that she could change Harry because she believed it to be the case, given her past experience with Winter Knights. Thus, Uriel was just saying that her claim was founded on a mistaken impression, which indeed it was.

The difference between a lie and a mere mistaken impression or falsehood is in the knowledge or intent. In the example you used, the married woman would be "living a lie" if, for example, she was pretending to love her husband when she knew that her feelings weren't real. Or maybe her spouse was a criminal and she was pretending her spouse was an upstanding citizen. Either way, it is about willful blindness. I don't think the Fae can do that - their subconscious would force them to confront the truth by preventing them from lying. Mab would have been physically unable to speak those words if she was merely hoping to live a lie by lying to herself.

Why wouldn't Uriel be able to lie? He's the spook, I think he CAN lie, just not in a way that compromises Free Will.

I think DonBugen handled this question quite well, but even assuming Uriel can bear false witness on some occasions, lying to somebody when you are telling them something it is extremely important for them to believe is not very smart. E.g., 2 + 2 = 3, trust me, Mab can't change who you are.

More importantly, he says lies. He doesn't say 'Mab lies' he says 'Mab's words are lies'. A semantic difference, but if Mab is wrong and doesn't know it, you could argue her words are still lies withou Mab lying.

Mab lied, Mab's words were lies, and Mab told a lie are all synonymous. The fact that you felt the need to specify that "you could argue" is a clear indicator that "semantics" is a poor justification for using the word Lies. Either JB made a poor word choice by using "Lies" over the equally available and more accurate choice of "Wrong," or JB chose the word lies because Uriel and was not the actual speaker and the word choice was tailored to the character speaking. JB isn't perfect, it's possible he just made a writing mistake, but in this case I don't think he did.

We should also not forget, that when Uriel in Ghost Story reveals the seven words whispered to him by the Fallen, that scene is different and that thought does not actually occur in the text during Changes. Even though we learn his memory was altered by Molly, that scene does not actually exist in the text of Changes.

Agreed, but why is that important other than that JB skipped the scene in Changes for story-telling purposes?

And I do agree, just because Uriel called Mab a liar doesn't mean Mab though she was lying. She simply assumed what she said was truth. I don't think the fae have to tell objective truths, only believe that they do. Otherwise the fae would be WAY more powerful than they are. I think the only beings that might fall into that category are beings with Intellectus (funnily enough, like Archangels and the Mothers).

If Mab didn't think she was lying, then Mab wasn't lying, she was simply wrong. Telling a lie requires knowledge of the falsity of the statement.

Mab's lie is a lie of omission.

That just doesn't fit. I don't think Mab was being clever and trying to mislead Harry into believing something that wasn't true, I think Mab believed what she said was true and she was simply wrong, because she doesn't truly understand free will.

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