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Messages - vultur

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31
DF Spoilers / Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« on: September 30, 2020, 10:34:21 PM »
Looking at it again, I'm even less sure that Mab is actually saying she can't marry (in general), as opposed to can't marry Lara.

As with most Fae things, precise wording is likely important.

Quote from: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 10:28:09 PM
You assume a monogamous marriage but the Sidhe are old, old style and pre christian. They might not have that clause.

Lara certainly doesn't want it.

Oh absolutely there would be no expectation of fidelity for either Winter or White Court. It's more a matter of, I thought Harry's oath to Mab was "absolute" enough that it might be incompatible with later marriage vows unless they were written specifically to deal with that.

32
DF Spoilers / Re: Winter Court Line of Succession
« on: September 30, 2020, 10:22:55 PM »
I believe if Mab dies, Molly immediately becomes Queen and the Lady mantle jumps to a new host on its own; so if Molly then immediately dies that new person becomes Queen.

Mab's order is rather odd; why would some random person be better suited to be Queen than Molly? It's also a bit odd that Mab assumes that Harry would be capable of killing even a new-to-the-Mantle Winter Queen.

But perhaps Mab knows Harry would not follow such an order, and her giving that order has some other effect down the road she does want?

33
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 10:20:13 PM »
Quote from: Conspiracy Theorist on September 30, 2020, 10:16:29 PM
Or “you are White Council”, BLAM!

Thus naming specific people rather than saying "the White Council", and also including "do not harm me in any way".

Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 10:14:37 PM
Fails the thermonuclear war/comet hits Edinborough/deadly plague that only affects wizards criteria.

I think my "do not harm me in any way" criterion would exclude doing those things in a way that Kemmler would be directly killed by it (in the fireball of the nukes/comet for example). Secondary effects, maybe, but I don't think those would be a real threat to someone like Kemmler once they were aware of them.

So probably actually an entirely acceptable outcome for Kemmler.

Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 10:00:27 PM
Fae: "Ask me my favorite fruit, this is a command."
Fae servant: "What is your favorite fruit?"
Fae: "In due time."

Fae enemy: "What is the password?"
Fae*makes eye contact with servant* "It is banana"

Right, but this sort of trick only works against people who either aren't aware of how it works or don't really think it through. Which anyone on the White Council ought to be capable of; it really should be fairly basic magical education.

Any statement like that which relies on an assumed antecedent of a pronoun just can't be trusted. Now if the Fae said, "the password to [this specific thing] is banana", that would be reliable (I think the present tense 'is' means you wouldn't even have to specify 'at this time' or 'the current password').

34
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 10:11:27 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 09:52:30 PM
There's near-infinite wiggle room in even the most straightforward request because of definition flexibility.

Well, I wasn't writing it out the way I would expect Kemmler to actually word it, because a) that would be tedious, and b) the exact way to word it correctly would be dependent on the specific circumstances and likely the Nature of the specific being chosen.

But it would be something more like requiring that being to "kill [insert names of Senior Council members, senior Wardens, Blackstaff, etc. at that time], in such a way that no Einherjar, shades, ghosts, or other remnants deriving from them remain able to impede my actions; destroy the wards protecting the Hidden Halls of Edinburgh and kill all who are within them at the time you do so; complete these tasks as soon as is possible by using your utmost abilities; and do not harm, confine, or imprison me, in any way, mentally, physically, or spiritually, or act to limit or impede my actions."

There's probably some wiggle room left in this, but I'd expect Kemmler to spend serious time on this, not just 5 minutes, and use specific knowledge of the being/situation. And with Kemmler's knowledge, probably do it in Latin, which is likely less friendly to grammatical ambiguity.

35
DF Spoilers / Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« on: September 30, 2020, 10:00:30 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 09:55:05 PM
Just as surprising, Mab can't marry.

She said it had to do with something that happened when she was mortal... I took that as meaning that it was because of some oath she had taken, not a condition of the Queen mantle.

And this too is a bit odd with the "consort of the Queens of Winter" bit. I took the Stone Table scene in Changes to be essentially a ritual consummation of Harry's "marriage" to Mab.

36
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 09:56:43 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 09:52:30 PM
There's massive amounts of folklore that sums up as "it's not easy."

Oh, absolutely. I'm just not sure how well that concept works with the Dresdenverse concept of supernatural beings being bound to their natures (as opposed to mortal free will).

That fact allows a far more complete certainty of how a being will act given certain conditions (eg specific terms of an oath) than is possible with humans.

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Also, the idea that there's an entity that would be friendly to Kemmler but anti Council and totally willing to be helpful- is highly speculative on your part.

Not necessarily "friendly" but "capable of recognizing a mutually-beneficial alliance". If the Council were gone, Kemmler would have huge latitude to set up his own organization and feed worship, sacrifices, or whatever else these beings get from cults to any of his allies.

Really, why wouldn't almost any dark entity be OK with that?

37
DF Spoilers / Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« on: September 30, 2020, 09:53:00 PM »
Quote from: Rigil Kent on September 30, 2020, 09:49:39 PM
Interesting thought: does that protection still apply since Karrin is now dead? His protection from Susan lasted years ... but she was still alive...

We don't know for sure. The way Thomas explains the effect in BR kind of implies it should, though - it is said to be bits of True Love-infused spirit that "stick to" the person. Any bits of Karrin's spirit stuck to Harry's should still be there.

Quote from: CrusherJen on September 30, 2020, 09:36:19 PM
So unless something happens in the next year, the marriage would have to be political only. Lara can't touch Harry without burning herself.

Marrying Lara might break it in itself - I'd imagine the vows have supernatural weight.

I am actually surprised that Harry getting married is even a possibility, as the Winter Knight is said to be "consort to the Queens of Winter". They might need to do something special with the vows -- I doubt Harry can swear to "forsake all others".

38
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 09:44:28 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 08:21:21 PM
Those are bindings.

A "binding" oath (eg Harry and Lea in the early books) is not at all the same thing as a wizard "binding" an entity (Harry's attempt to bind the Erlking in DB, Ethniu in BG).

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It's a total monkey's paw/letter of request situation.

Not if Kemmler has half a brain. There's no reason why he can't pick an entity which would have no objection to destroying the White Council - there must be plenty like that in Demonreach. It could easily be a mutually beneficial alliance.

And Kemmler wouldn't have survived as long as he did if he was dumb enough to phrase these sorts of bargains *that* exploitably.

(This is something that actually kind of bugs me. As DV Fae and other supernaturals are bound to their natures, bargaining with them ought to be basically zero-risk for someone who understands their natures. It shouldn't be dangerous for anyone except uninformed people like Harry when he dealt with Lea; actual White Council Wizards should have no trouble.)

39
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 08:18:26 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 08:06:21 PM
Bindings are difficult and the beings aren't trustworthy.

I'm not talking about binding anything. Just the inherent power of oaths with supernatural beings.

Kemmler to imprisoned old god: "If you swear to destroy the White Council as soon as you can, and not to harm me, I will release you."

That's all it would take.

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Anything he released to annihilate the council- could he confine it himself?

Perhaps, but why would he bother? Total chaos would work in his favor.

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"I incited thermonuclear war/the plague to end all plagues. Trust me, Council's gone. Good luck with the fallout."

That's actually probably a win for Kemmler. Really good conditions for a Darkhallow. Once he's a god, does he care about what happens to humanity?

Even if he couldn't Darkhallow immediately, the more chaos, the more surviving people would flock to an unifying force, which Kemmler could be. Civilization started with a tiny population compared to the modern era (or even the late 18th century where Kemmler got started); he could build a new civilization, which could hardly hurt his efforts to become a deity.

40
DF Spoilers / Re: HUGE BATTLE GROUND SPOILERS - (Un)Answered questions
« on: September 30, 2020, 08:08:43 PM »
Quote from: BrainFireBob on September 30, 2020, 07:46:46 PM
Namshiel can probably provide the Sight

I agree; even if it's not exactly the same thing as what a conventional wizard would use, the Fallen can absolutely perceive magical energies itself, and it can use its ability to influence the host's perceptions to convey that.

I think any of the Denarian Fallen could do this, but the personalities & needs of host and Fallen mean that they usually don't. The ones that are just thugs and go through hosts quickly (like Magog) don't bother, and some of the others probably usually pick hosts who already are magical practitioners.

41
DF Spoilers / Re: Barbara Books Q&A
« on: September 30, 2020, 08:02:14 PM »
Quote from: Rigil Kent on September 30, 2020, 07:43:46 PM
Which sort of tracks with their desperate attempts to keep him from getting back to the island, though...

Well, it's just that, if I were an evil warlock Warden of Demonreach, I'd know that as a warlock the White Council was my largest threat.  So I'd release some powerful beings oathbound to destroy the White Council as my first move.

IE why did he leave the island before the White Council was gone?

In a chaotic world with the Council destroyed, he could then start setting up a magical organization of his own.

42
DF Spoilers / Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« on: September 30, 2020, 08:00:22 PM »
Quote from: Yuillegan on September 30, 2020, 12:47:16 AM
3. Vadderung. I'd say there is a reasonable hint he is or was also Zeus (his Spear unleashed was literally a lightning bolt). But the phrase Gard says also seems to hint that he might well have been much more. Perhaps many things.

Well he has a lot of identities... we know Kringle and Beowulf at least.

But historically Odin was identified with Mercury, Thor with Jupiter (Zeus).

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The fact he is starborn suggests he was mortal or is mortal.

This seems to have very interesting implications, yeah. Per WOJ Drakul is something entirely inhuman trapped in human form. Since Starborn seems to imply being born, maybe his human form was an actual human being rather than an 'assumed' form (like Uriel's temporary human form in SG).

Maybe a starborn wizard way-back-when messed up a summoning and ended up being completely possessed?

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Knowledge is power, sure. But I very much dislike the fantasy trope where a secret society with a library seem to have every book every, especially on the threat they need to face.

Well, as for lost knowledge... it seems from "Backup" that those beings that are genuinely forgotten can't act in the mortal world anymore. So beings only mentioned in completely lost books probably aren't relevant.

I agree they'd be unlikely to know the exact powers and weaknesses of really obscure beings.

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12 Also, was disappointed the masquerade didn't fully drop.

Think it's a time scale issue. It hasn't fully happened at the end of BG, but the process has been set in motion. But the lack of any electronic documentation is going to be a real issue in terms of the public believing this - at first. Especially with the whole 'hallucinogenic gas' bit.

It's still going to happen, but it won't be immediate. There will be lots of different stories flying around for quite a while - confused eyewitness accounts, the official story, the Paranet version pieced together from eyewitness accounts and some background supernatural knowledge, and lots of mundane conspiracy theories (aliens, secret government experiments, etc.)

43
DF Spoilers / Re: !!SPOILERS!! Battle Ground Thoughts and Recap !!SPOILERS!! READER BEWARE
« on: September 30, 2020, 07:38:03 PM »
Quote from: Arjan on September 30, 2020, 01:11:15 PM
The white councils definition of human is flexible apparently and it also inconsistent because if Harry really had broken the law they should put him on the death list of dangerous sorcerers and start actively hunting him, and not push him out unless they do not consider him human anymore.

En will explode when he hears about him and Lara ;D

It's definitely inconsistent, but it's politics.

In BG Harry was acting as Winter Knight, trying to execute him for actions taken as Winter Knight (as opposed to for personal reasons) could start a conflict between the Council and Winter.

Otherwise 'warped' humans don't seem to qualify for the purposes of the First Law - Denarians for example; Harry killed them with magic in SmF when Luccio was around.

44
DF Spoilers / Re: I cannot wait to see how Harry's snark adapts to the new political situation
« on: September 30, 2020, 07:27:03 PM »
Quote from: Hankthemoose on September 30, 2020, 02:50:30 PM
Because Jim is an asshole, he would then definitly send Ramirez to kill them both.

I like most of this, but I really can't see the White Council expecting Ramirez to kill Harry.

If they decided to kill him and Eb refused, they'd probably do a full Kemmler-style mobilization.

Though the actual best bet would probably be to have a mortal do it with a car bomb or sniper rifle. A full mobilization would take time and not be particularly secret, and Harry as the leader of a magical organization and allied by marriage to the White Court would have significant resources of his own - it would be a full-scale war.

45
DF Spoilers / Re: What's the deal with the horrible communication skills?
« on: September 30, 2020, 07:20:51 PM »
Quote from: Mira on September 30, 2020, 07:16:05 PM
Yes, but at this point anyway I don't think Harry or Lara want it.

Oh sure. Presumably some other circumstance will start the conflict (like Mab orders Harry to do some kind of "double agent" thing like working with Nicodemus in SG, and it looks to the Council like Harry has gone full-on Black Council).

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Harry didn't start this war, casually or otherwise.

In the big picture, you're right, but it looks like a consequence of Harry's destruction of the Red Court. (Though probably the Fomor could also have benefited from the RC destroying the Council or from the war grinding both down.)

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