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Messages - Ed0517

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166
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: December 03, 2022, 05:30:04 AM »
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I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker.

My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim? 

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

He knows a little, and she knows more. The average guy in the street might not be able to tell the difference between, say, a 4th year college biology student and her professor. He just knows both know a lot more than him. 

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Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply.  While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here.  It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why.  If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.
I meant that arrogance is very common among wizards, and you had a very good point you made quite clearly.

You watch the kids not because of greater arrogance but because of greater damage potential if they go wrong. Like why you are not as afraid of the cocker spaniel that you know bit a kid as you are of the Rottweiler who has never bit anyone.


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why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?


He was convinced she knew what she was doing. She thought she did. She didn't.
 
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She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level.  At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.

Yes. Rather than look for the money to do this, take a finder's fee and bring in Harry. 

167
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: December 01, 2022, 04:39:17 AM »
  Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole.  So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed.  I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for.  She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster.  If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know. 

I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle. 

I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.




plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c...  But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.
  I think a lot of them, most of the pros, will know something more than oil change. Even if just "Something in fuel injection is messed. Maybe the nozzle? "

He'd have some idea, if not the skill needed to fix it. Much like, say, an athletic trainer "I think you damaged the ACL" - but he doesn't try to fix it !

  Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble

Um, the MacFinns ARE the wealthy nobles....

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Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide.  I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!

Maybe not. If you knew the curse is until the end of time.... and even killing Finn means the mantle (had to say it!) shifts... now you do not know where it is! Or what kind of nut it might infect! You help Finn because he is at least trying. Sort of like why a Marcone stays around - it's the devil you know and can predict. And if S*^#% goes down, you know who to look at.

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Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again.  Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!!!!

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The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.

We have a candidate or two... or more...

The "Black Council."

I suspect the Black Council is another arm of the same agency.  This is sabotage before the BC and their armies move. Damage stuff and create unrest.

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Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.

No. Mab would not be creating such a threat to humans. Mab's a sniper, MacFinn is a grenade. Mab targets much more precisely.

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Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.
Too unfocused. Again, too wide a field of fire.

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Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox! 
a little too contrived. I'd be disappointed in Jim. Next thing, we find out Harry is going to be fine, because he's just six all this time and Malcolm comes out of the shower at the Ozarks Holiday Inn Express on their way to Eb's farm.

One other point:  I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's:  IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare

168
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 29, 2022, 12:32:09 AM »
Yeah, but "considered armed and dangerous" is often enough to get the suspect killed.

Oh yeah. They go in for suspected warlocks armed for bear. Like cops with an arrest warrant showing up with four of them with flak vests and shotguns and rifles. You want to take them in - but you are prepared to take them down.

But I think Kim could be cowed and go along with them.

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Harry expected that the kind of summoning-circle she was proposing would be taken as proof of guilt, and she'd be executed for it.
might not be - so long as it had not been used.

169
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 29, 2022, 12:24:08 AM »

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Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic



But also (and IMHO the more-likely explanation):  the MacFinn curse only affects 1 family member at a time.  If the circle was imported by dad/grandpa/etc, maybe one of those elder generations was at home -- inside the intact circle! -- while young Harley was in Basic; then they died, when he was in 'Nam (and he used the curse to take revenge on the Viet Cong).

Then -- being the CEO of a shipping conglomerate -- he was probably eligible to go home and take over the family business.

I like this explanation. Also explains why centuries later we are not overrun with loup garous. Not all MacFinns are active. Just the heir to the curse, like the heir to a throne.



170
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 29, 2022, 12:13:49 AM »
kind of circle was needed to contain him, no, I think he knew a lot more than
No, then who built it there in the first place? Why? How did Finn know about it?That's a possible way, if that is what he did, he must have hauled it all over the world with him.


Hey, the Pope and the President of the US bring their cars with them. Why can't he bring a slab of stone? If you have the bucks.....

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Harry was going to try.. Materials are important,and maybe just just useless bling in this case.  Remember I think it was after Harry was made a Warden and had a regular paycheck, one of the first things he did was upgrade the circle in his basement to silver, I cannot remember what it was made of before, but I remember him saying that the silver made a stronger circle.

 I think it was copper. I may be geeking, but did you know copper is the second best conductor of electricity amongst the elements? the only thing better.... is silver.  It may be the more power you have, the less material assistance you need.

Hypothetical example. It takes 100 wizard-volts to power a circle that will hold Chauncey. An aluminum circle loses half the power sent by the wizard to waste. Light, heat, whatever. Minor practitioner with 150 wizard-volts can't summon safely. Harry had 1000 wizard volts, even with the relatively cheap aluminum, he shoots out 250 WV to have a safe margin, the field is a 125 WV flux density, Chauncey is caged. 

Harry wants to summon the Erlking, who is likely going to be pissed. His field needs 750 WV. Harry would have to have 1500 WV minimum. He doesn't. But SILVER has a 10% voltage drop. So his circle, he can throw all 1000 WV and achieve a 900 WV field. Erlking has to sit and listen. Still makes sense to be very polite, apologetic, and make it worth his while.   

But note, with Harry's nice silver circle, minor practitioner would have been able to cage Chauncey. So materials do count.

171
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 28, 2022, 11:44:06 PM »
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How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? ...
Hell itself has strong interest in having these sorts of summonings available to mortals -- and has the means to get them into mortals' hands!

You mean like some organization that basically got a "How to kill black court vampires" book published as Dracula? Wo were they? ;)

172
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 28, 2022, 11:40:37 PM »
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Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch-
  It is the second book in the series, Jim could have changed his mind, but then again the circle has never been tested on page against the like.  Uriel did shrug his shoulders at the pitiful circle a wounded Harry made to try to contain him in Changes, but that wasn't the same kind of circle.

Or, maybe the WC had their heads up their butts. They do seem to have underestimated the Archive, certainly.  Harry told Luccio so.

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It really wasn't a trial, it was more of a kangaroo court, that is what Harry objected to. That is what he insisted on for Molly, a real trial at the end of the book. 
they did have fact findings. It's not really a kangaroo court when the guilt is plainly proven.


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  Harry hints that knowing how to build such a circle flirts with the dark arts.  It isn't just about having one of these circles in your back yard, but what you could call up with it. She wasn't a minor wizard, she wasn't even an apprentice, she had a little talent.  The speech Harry gave her about the circle, what it could contain, controlling such a thing sounded a lot like the one the Merlin gave him about young would be warlocks, the immense amount of danger, deaths, if they were allowed to live and something went wrong.. Which it did, and Kim and a lot of innocents died.


Actually, the Merlin treated Harry a lot less dismissively than Harry did Kim. Harry knew more of what could happen. Harry did not sit Kim down and say "What that is meant to hold is NASTY. You screw up any TINY detail about the circle, it gets free and dozens are probably going to die. You are putting a nitroglycerine factory between a school and an apartment building. "
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   Why didn't she explain about Finn?  I think Harry would have gone with her and tried to help Finn.  Kim wanted Harry's knowledge, but she wanted to handle it herself, she wanted the credit.. In other words she was beginning down the road to the dark side, I believe the White Council would have seen it the same way.
Or it was simply pride. "I'm a big girl. I can do it myself" Acting like some teenager eager to be of age. She didn't want help due to her pride. Not evil. Just immature.

173
DF Spoilers / Re: In defense of the WC
« on: November 28, 2022, 11:18:43 PM »
Agreed.  Morgan had no way of knowing that Justin had Harry, if he had, Harry wouldn't have spent the next five years as Justin's adopted son.  One interesting point I think, how soon after Malcolm's death did Morgan begin to look for Harry? Who ever took young Harry to social services must have made sure that there were no physical traces of the child left behind that could be magically tracked.  Hmmm.. All makes sense when you think of it for a murder/kidnapping conspiracy... Only that too would have been overlooked because who'd suspect the state of kidnapping?

Malcolm was a traveling magician. He could well have passed in a motel room on the road, with who knows how many people in and out of it. Frequently cleanings, Harry might have been in there one night. How many people may have been in there after Malcolm died before Morgan learned of it?

174
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 28, 2022, 06:13:38 AM »
I don't read it that way.  They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.

They would have likely had the equivalent to a "suspect is considered armed and dangerous" warning but it is an arrest team, not an assassination squad.

They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.

Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch- 

175
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 27, 2022, 07:34:16 AM »
ah, sounds like a "stop by any means necessary"  not a sentence as such but... if they die, they die.

176
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 26, 2022, 11:25:30 AM »
I have to go back and reread, but the circle she wanted to build, and the type of monsters and demons it was designed to contain, it was illegal or drew some interesting assumptions from the Wardens.  In other words if you needed to build that kind of circle to call up whatever or contain whatever, you were up to no good.. Remember his buddy Morgan?  At that point in time Harry didn't know he was really looking out for his welfare.

I think it was some of the glyphs in the circle were for containing "don't screw with them things". Sort of like walking to your local pet store in midtown Manhattan and asking for a cage for your pet. When they are thinking "Is it a parakeet? Or maybe a cocker spaniel?" and you are asking about inch thick bars that could hold a tiger or grizzly....  that sets off alarms.

177
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 24, 2022, 09:16:01 AM »
I don't think the circles are BANNED as such, Harry just won't TEACH Kim because the ones she wanted are designed for things she should not go near. It's like teaching your kid to drive the first time - you do not give your son the keys to a 500 hp Corvette. It's not ILLEGAL to do so, but it is not SMART. Mom's Volvo station wagon is a better choice.  It's like making nitroglycerine and mixing it with DE to make dynamite paste. The end product is pretty stable, but you better know what you are doing along the way, nitro is VERY touchy stuff.  In this case, it's not the circle that is an issue - it's what's inside. 

178
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 23, 2022, 08:57:22 AM »

I really wouldn’t be surprised to find Chauncy working with Nameless/Cowl. How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world?

The summoning rites have been out there. Sells used one. Harry did. They could have gotten the rite from where Harry did. We have no reason to think Harry unique here. 

179
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 22, 2022, 05:06:40 AM »
He's a demon.  "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).

I would not be surprised if Chauncey WAS allowed to lie, because he had been invoked. Whispering uninvited things in Harry's ear as he lies there was not solicited. Chauncey was. Harry called Chauncey out of free will

180
DF Spoilers / Re: So Fitz is...
« on: November 19, 2022, 07:30:26 AM »
St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.

Aye! Cursing unborn innocent generations? Sounds more like an Orangeman trick...

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