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Messages - skybluemonk

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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Some plot elements just bug me....
« on: January 30, 2016, 08:52:15 PM »
pulley top or the ramp attach rope to the wagon to pull run through the pulley attach to a rig containing lift crystal. Crystal down  pulls wagon up ramp. Crystal up  releases wagon to drop down ramp by gravity. By way of course would be a train.

An external windlass going up and down would be on a pull system so one crystal could manage to cargos. Going up allows another barge to slowly descend and going down pulls its twin barge up. Given cost of crystals the obvious solution just a question of what weight a crystal can lift ie size number of bargest.

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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Some plot elements just bug me....
« on: January 30, 2016, 08:00:31 AM »
whoops and forgot Ramps are just special forms of windlass one floor deep if you think about it but see the problem with  overall number of crystals, maybe lift crystals quicker and easier to grow. Need 250. hmmmmmmm

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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Some plot elements just bug me....
« on: January 30, 2016, 07:54:29 AM »
so Shecky lets say we have a pianos to deliver to say  habble 39 and Habble 92 via merchantman from another spire Cant be delivered directly to the specific habble. Both lets say get dropped off at the base entrance the ground.. Assume ground floor is ground and up the ramp we have floor/Habble 1 etc etc.  The first piano would need to man hauled up 39 ramps to reach the right habble. Wouldn't make sense to man haul the  other  piano up  92 ramps. Instead would go up the outside in a windlass to Habble Landing which is 125th floor  and then down 33 to Habble 92.  Similar strategy would apply to the moving between Habbles 125 and 250. Mind you heavy goods easier to manipulate using gravity  i.e going down  than going up.
We have Habbles that are sizeable populations the whole spire is big population there would be lots of traffic between spires unless each habble is self contained and travel is restricted. Such a limitation of freedoms doesn't sound right for Albion. The ramps have to be big [wide] cant be staircase sized as in skyscrapers.
If they ran along opposite outside walls [one up one down the gradient at 2 miles by 50[something feet... grins we haven't decided how thick the floors] would be small. I'd have  carts like mining wagons on rails gravity powered ie the goods going down "pulling" up the goods going up. I'd settle for another power source like steam but how is the steam "heated" as wood coal oil etc seem improbable. Would in my description just need one trade goods ramp could be 3 others for foot traffic.
Doesn't need  holes cutting nor clogging up other traffic.  What I see as a problem would have been the motivation for the middle habbles to desperately need an outside opening which was incredibly hard to do but really really worth it. Would not solve the problem of internal haulage but make it a damn sight easier. So similarly they would have put effort and time into designing an efficient  trade goods transportation on the inside that was more than physical man handling. There is one. Humans being humans its odds on bet, I'm just suggesting what it could be. Travel up and down the outside isn't a problem.

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Quote from: skybluemonk on Yesterday at 02:18:47 PM
As for power sources  in the habbles we have lumins [crystals]  the spirestones themselves channel etheric energy  Jim hasn't said that i recollect  what fuel they use to cook for example but could be electricity from an "etheric"source we just don't have the detail. We know there are steam engines they need power to heat water  wood is expensive  no petroleum coal [surface problems] so my money is on electricity generated for public use and to power steam. We have Grimms electric tea pot as an example. Demand and supply!

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There's obviously infrastructure in place for such things, but when you've always done everything a certain way, and your society is based on that assumption, there's not going to be much innovation. And if the Spire wanted to divert the power that's already in use, how are they going to rewire the whole Spire (see earlier point about spirestone being less than easily manipulated)?

Ok cant argue with there is an infrastructure in place providing power for domestic use etc but we don't know what it is. But that's  like saying oh its magic. Not berating Jim for not saying what it is but we have a steampunk world where Jim has set some limitations by sequestering the surface. Power sources are limited to etheric steam and electricity and etheric has itself its limitations. Seems from description from Folly  etheric fields flow through spirestone.  spirestone is the wire . Seems to me it generates a field and she needed a nexus in that field which she could tap into. If that is the case then it should be possible for such nexus to provide power perhaps the Builders provided for this in each habble. Again just looking for plausible ways of making the Spire work using breadcrumbs supplied by Jim.
Agree social structure would tend towards stagnation and little innovation. Each Spire is under siege from the surface from its fellow city/state spires. All priority goes into what they perceive will keep them safe.  Now a great plot line would be  the Coke Revolution " I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony"   Grins


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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Some plot elements just bug me....
« on: January 29, 2016, 11:58:11 PM »
Good Debate.
nothing says whether  they are floating or not specifically!
But text suggests, as pointed out above, it is on the surface.
It is also guarded. Pike says he was almost shot up after walking a mile across the surface with his injured crew. Indigenous wildlife get in through vents etc. Nothing described as flying but crawling climbing things we know of this suggests contact with the ground or only flying or things that jump high.

By the way what was Pike and his crew up to?  Did he crash a mile out from the spire?  That's damned close. Why did he crash? He's a regular has his own suite.  Is Jim leaving another of his plot threads waving in the air?. Is this a "car crash" we will get back to in Book 6?

I look but cant find reference in the book to a conversation that says electricity is not supplied to the habbles. Would appreciate someone [Please pointing it out to me.  How habbles function intrigues me. They need power.
As for defense. The spirearch makes clear he cannot trust the Guard till the traitorare flushed. Also they are police he gives the numbers and points out they are stretched thin over 236 habitted habbles. He has to let things play out without any obvious response from himself other than the sending of a small secret force.
The Fleets defensive strategy I've explained is down to Wilson. As to his genius Bayard and Grimm may have been ironic! There are clearly lots of problems within the fleet. If Jim is modelling the British Admiralty over its history then there's internal battles over Aristocratic Command structures mostly by baffoons buying their positions versus professional seaman earning command [Rook]. In any event he Wilson was thinking invasion not guerrilla warfare.
500  highly trained Marines vs 96 Grimms Crew [minus casualties as the book progresses]. Plus the Silkweavers [1000?] Grimm is outnumbered and has to be reactive following the marines  not taking them on one on one. He is ordered to protect Ferus group that's important  he cant defend the landing and do that with the resources he has. He also has no idea what the marines will do next.
  By the time he gets to the Monastery they are attacking the Habble itself on the way to the landing.
Predator is barely functional and only manages to get up to battle ready by the skin of her teeth and survive the destruction of the landing. [Also thanks to Ransoms empathetic nostalgia...  big mistake by her but revealing another side to her than pure mercenary] If he made an Alamo of Predator with no shroud, Mistshark would have blown her to hell and back nostalgia or no.
Never mind some approx 350 to 400 trained Marines heavily armed with explosives playing in a tinderbox of wood. Turns out he makes the right calls to save the group and eventually reveal [and in some way yet to be explained in full] deadened the impact of the reason behind the whole Aurorean attack which was acquiring the Index.
Also haven't specifically timed everything but main events in whole book is over a couple of days i"d say. There's no time to particularly put the Spire on a war footing never mind that for his own reasons the Spirearch has kept the information suppressed. So who knew ... a handful of people in the spire and the fleet outside it.
Any defensive cannon on the landing would have been targetted and blown up by the marines and remember its all wood not even spirestone so ridiculously vulnerable from an internal attack.
sorry but it is pearl harbor'ish'. in and out quick have a plan stick to it no invasion  just the damage which in this case was a plus to the real objective the Index.  Look at the fall of Singapore or the Maginot line for "almost" parallels of defenses pointing the wrong way.

As for Iron rot... love it It applies to both sides seriously handicaps armed warfare sets limits makes for interesting world building. I suggest Jim has thought through the implications and is having fun with the problem he has set himself.






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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Some plot elements just bug me....
« on: January 28, 2016, 09:18:47 PM »
Good reply Shecky. But... grins  .. I still have some issues. There are 3 entrances exits. Surface Habble Landing Habble  morning. Habble Landing did "create" itself but where is it in the series of 250 Habbles. Impression I got was at first surface or near re read and thought . But if all goods have to hauled up and down internally [a hell of a task  not to mention how no draught animals no vehicles described and we have a city to service here population jim suggests of Manhattan.] then makes sense its around Habble 125. Still think humans as lazy as we are would have demanded and created lifts internal we have lift crystals after all . Doesn't need many Habbles largely self sufficient vats water gardens etc but hauling say wood internally and heavy goods machinery need some internal transport system other than pure muscle power.[ Otherwise I have images of Egyptian Slaves hauling waggons up ramps by rope. [OOOOhhhh   have we invented the wheel!!!!!]
Suggest just not mentioned yet as been no particular need.

As for the attack. From memory the admiral of the Fleet [Wilson?] was embarrassed by the sneak attack  that dropped the marines. He ordered the fleet out to form a cordon around the spire so no attacker would get close. But they were already here and he reacted exactly as the Aurorians expected.

Mistshark was a neutral merchant under a Dolosian flag and already docked. Grimm suspected for his own reasons but no evidence and would the fleet believe him. Knowledge of Marines was not common knowledge and Spirearch kept it secret to flush out the traitor or traitors who could be in the Guard. So no Guard deployment. Just Grimm and his small crew who's orders were to protect and support Ferus and the others. He did what he could when he could. The marines blew up the landing  Mistshark caused chaos by destroying neighbouring ships thus assisting in the escape.  The fleet is miles away looking out not in so relatively easy for Random to dodge the cordon  until of course the Fleet knew it had been fooled again. Await with interest to see the political fallout in the fleet as a result.
Also the Spirearch has his resources witness the rallying of the Habble to putting out the fire etc. He simply was using Ferus et al as his trigger in a long wider game in which risks must be taken.

As for power sources  in the habbles we have lumins [crystals]  the spirestones themselves channel etheric energy  Jim hasn't said that i recollect  what fuel they use to cook for example but could be electricity from an "etheric"source we just don't have the detail. We know there are steam engines they need power to heat water  wood is expensive  no petroleum coal [surface problems] so my money is on electricity generated for public use and to power steam. We have Grimms electric tea pot as an example. Demand and supply!

There that will do for now. Will add though that Jim cant think of everything nor put it in one book and tell a bloody good story. Fact that we want to "understand" this world is down to his creative imagination in the first place. I'm happy for him to tell the story and i'll work out in my head how much shit a spire with the population of Manhattan generates and what one could do with it. When i work it out i'll drop a post for the few mad Aeronauts who give a shit!!!!!


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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: The Index
« on: January 24, 2016, 09:38:48 PM »
my thoughts
Its a Wayist Document and they are independent of spires. If the book was not a public document it can be assumed it contained information the Wayist and /or some other power/organisation wanted kept secret/. Its existence would have been suspected and maybe its nature but not the contents. For example the Spirearch does not seem surprised when given 2 copies and recognises its importance. As far as we know Ferus showed no interest in it yet Cavandish did so  its not necessarily something central to an etherealist. So means to an ends rather than having any power in itself and Cavandish was securing it for the Aurorans or for her Master. Its value it seems is in the content remaining secret  now its in Cavandish's memory and in her physical copy the actual book she had is irrelevant. That Albion has it is of no concern. Also of interest given that she has memorised it she does need a physical copy. In her memory it would make her more important but she cant risk that or she wont defy orders to provide a physical copy.
Content is names clearly burning the copies is an attempt to delay the knowledge of the content from being known to others but not an absolute necessity or Cavendish would have destroyed her copy when memorised. The burning of the Monastery is a definite primary  target of the incursion of the marines sending a message to others and acquiring the Index. Destroying copies useful but as subsequent actions of hers shows not absolutely essential.She wants more copies in her control as she orders for Marines to make copies. She is not worried about the marines seeing or knowing the names. Either because she is planning to kill them  or because the names as such are meaningless to them. Some other knowledge or context is needed to make sense of the names. The index is some link in a chain. That the Spirearch doesn't open to read suggests he knows this is not immediate knowledge he needs or not immediately available to him simply by reading.
Names can be of things and of people. Which, really we have no clue and can be of both ie names of Spires and of people in them.  From the  mass of pages on her table  on to which Cavendish was  copying her memory  the index was a book of some size and therefore a large number of names
By the way we only have Cavendish's statement that it contains names, is that all it contains, is she lying?
"An index is an indirect shortcut derived from and pointing into a greater volume of values, data, information or knowledge"
That its called an index  suggests the latter part  shortcut to information or knowledge. Names of other books people who hold knowledge or where it can be found. There is a suggestion of secret knowledge and not much of a stretch to associate that with the Builders and what will unfold as a race to its discovery.

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Cinder Spires Books / Re: The Cinder Spires Description and Meaning
« on: January 23, 2016, 07:33:51 PM »
 :-\ Cant help it  still need to get my head around the Spires.
on re reading  re assessed Habble Landing thought it was ground/surface but no they carved a hole for themselves in the spirestone and built the landing platform. Was no "original"  entry point to surface but there must be one as people and goods do get in and out to the surface [Capt Pine and crew]. When the Landing is destroyed ships and people fall to the surface which isnt visible so must be a considerable fall.  So question is are there Habbles below Habble Landing. If Habble landing is "floor 1" and there is say for arguments sake a 200 foot drop to the surface  that once again squashes the available room for 250 Habbles in the overall structure.
Must in fact be uninhabited habbles near to or on the surface. Need to supply water. There are cisterns in each habble but have to get water from surface so pumps and presume a central reservoir  2 miles by 2 miles by 50 feet would give a good volume of water if flooded... Habble lake....  room for aquaculture vats maybe shell fish filtering the water and providing food.

I also keep thinking why no internal lifts [steam powered or lift crystals] particularly as only 3 external doors. Commerce/trade  would demand  some  efficient  internal transportation system between habbles unless they are largely self sufficient and economically independent which doesn't sound realistic.
And  .... so sorry but my mind got on to lighting.  Habbles have translucent spirestone  which is fine but how they are distributed would matter. if i was designing i'd have a circle of them high up so light is directed down on to the floor of each habble. Likely each habble would be designed same.
But if Habble Landing built its mezzanine floor over the same area minus the Monastery then  that creates issues for where the translucent spirestones are placed on the outside walls and has to create areas or area as dark as ventilation tunnels either on one floor or the other.

Then theres population  food production and distribution,  management of waste [human and material]  course none of which is necessarily needed for the story  but helps if the world being created is believable fine point of course is where one draws the line and thats up to the author. We fans of course can let our minds roam as we will [and we will], to our hearts content.  All that is thanks to the author.

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Cinder Spires Books / Re: The Cinder Spires Description and Meaning
« on: January 21, 2016, 08:42:12 AM »
WHOOPS HERE WE GO AGAIN!

"Habble Morning occupied the entirety of the spire  most of it beneath a vast atrium nearly 200 feet high and it was the next best thing to 2 miles from one side of the  great cylinder that was the spire Albion to the other. Ch 14"

Hmmm  Cylinder  but  but means square in circle and not as map [circle in square] and not a Borg cube!!!!!
Plus
 200 foot atrium  room for 3 habbles and decreases the available space for 250 habbles spaced 50 feet apart [which is tight anyway]  The need to get the 250 habbles into a spire needs about two and half miles allowing for variations like this atrium  ie how thick are the floors  10 feet   that would give another  2,480 feet to account for. Grins sorry Jim i'm being pedantic  and I guessing the spires are in of themselves  important to your story  so would  be nice to get them right and as an arcology
its an exciting idea for a living environment.

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Cinder Spires Spoilers / Re: Democracy?
« on: January 19, 2016, 07:22:53 AM »
The Spirearch states that a monarchy was a necessary evil at one time but that as monarch he is now largely obsolete. There is a Council made up of representatives of the Houses and of all the habbles which he considers sometimes boarders as being fair. This presumes some form of election but perhaps guild based we are not told.
As monarch he seems to have respect and as the story progresses not devoid of power.
So a functioning democracy with a hereditary monarch with constitutional role somewhat similar to a British model but only one body. Like an american president he can presumably present policy to the council which they recognise as long as he is politic enough not to challenge but win to his argument ie cat citizen ship which was not out of the blue  or done to address the duel but a wider purpose of a Spire at war. There are deeper plans we have yet to see.

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Cinder Spires Books / The Cinder Spires Description and Meaning
« on: January 19, 2016, 06:33:56 AM »
Each spire is  a square with sides of 2 miles and therefore a floor area of 4 square miles. The Spirearch of Albion states Albion is ten thousand feet high and has 250 habbles of which 236 are occupied. Each habble is quoted as 50 feet floor to ceiling. This has to assume that the none inhabited  habbles are somewhat less that 50 feet high in order to fit within 10,000 feet overall height [1.89 miles].It is possible the Spirearch is generalising  the dimensions and the spire is a black  tower 2 miles high. There are references to a 2 mile fall for aeronauts. The living use-able floor area of each habble is a circle with a 2 mile radius. This then allows for various utilities and engineering needs at the periphery of each habble. It is possible that some habbles are not used for habitation and do not require a 50 foot ceiling. But the design is by the builders so it would presumably be uniform given the building material seems indestructible. To fit the 250 habbles need at 50ft ceilings would need  a height of about 12,000 feet [2.27 miles].
As the spirearch  is simply making a point of the complexity of the Albions spire he needn't have to be precise. Its 2x2 dimension  needs to be to be a square but to grow a cylinder on that base and to still be symmetrical  the height is immaterial. A spire normally tapers from that square, clearly these don't but can still call them spires why not.

Jim talks in his public appearances of the spires as Borg cubes. Which sort of destroys any visual image as a spire which has to at least be taller than wide and should taper but a square based tower ie rectangle  would sort of cover a spire. In the book chapter 33 further confusion as the spires are described round with the habbles having a square floor plan fitting inside. This contradicts the maps drawn for the books which reverse  to square containing circle.
Perhaps its pedantic and can be dismissed as the characters Bridget in this case having no real idea of geometry and having never gone outside to see the actual shape of the spire. Whether the earth is flat or round matters very little to most people in conducting their day to day lives.
But editing should have spotted this for Jim.

What interests me is  the sub title of the series  the cinder spires. Cinder is slag something left over after a process  iron slag coal slag  etc  cinders. As a verb to slag something is to reduce it to rubble.  So Jim, made from slag or are we venturing into the future not the past.

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