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Messages - Lawgiver

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1
DF Spoilers / Re: The most frightening Denarian yet?
« on: July 05, 2017, 05:04:37 PM »
Years ago, in a television interview, actor Vincent Price was asked, based on his career in horror films, what he considered the most frightening Hollywood Movie Monster was.

His reply: "A man without a conscience."

The Denarians that are so subsumed by the dark angels in their coins don't count; they're more animal than human.

To me, Nicodemus himself is the worst of the lot for the reason Price pointed out.  He's a man - intelligent, educated, utterly ruthless and all but devoid of conscience (issues of his daughter aside).  He is capable of truly horrific acts that would be found few other places... certainly nowhere in the natural animal kingdom on Earth.  One would have to go to the realms of the supernatural to find equal or worse.

Just a thought

2
DF Spoilers / Re: If Hades shows up for Peace Talks in Chicago
« on: May 09, 2017, 05:34:38 PM »
Eh, I dont really see that happening, attendance on the sly I mean.  Either they are interested enough to attend and participate by the rules, or else they abstain from the proceedings.  Id view that sort of sneaking around to be a Disrespect to the Accords, which Mab would not tolerate.
I don't know.  The Accords seem to have a rather bureaucratic element to them, so I could see something similar to the Robert's Rules of Order and Parliamentary Procedure in play, meaning one group could offer another group their proxy.  That way they can avoid attendance without offense because they followed the rules.  Just surmise, mind, but as complex as any treaty/contract is likely to be - particularly one created by a high-ranking Fae - I can't help but see work-arounds like that being common.

/shrug

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DF Spoilers / Re: If Hades shows up for Peace Talks in Chicago
« on: May 09, 2017, 05:13:34 PM »
Pretty sure he is a signatory...  He upheld the rules of hospitality.
Hospitality has nothing to do with the Accords.

Hospitality is a very old-world social custom.  Think of it in terms of a gentleman holding open a door for a lady or pulling her chair out - not belching in public, etc.

The Accords, on the other hand is an organization, described iirc as similar to NATO, a sort of mutual protection treaty.  Members aren't supposed to have conflict with one another, but terms of the Accords provide a conduit for arbitrating any conflicts that do arise as well as providing certain forms of punishment/discipline when it does happen (reparations payments and the like are one we know of).

4
I think the assumption Im making that is causing the disconnect is that when Hecate &Co combined Power to create the Modern courts, the Guardianship itself was part of that mix of Power that got move/reformed.  I dont think you could have that tier of Power without it's Purpose going right along with it; they'd be two parts of the same ball of wax Yarn (ill go with "Ball of Yarn" since the moirai are in there).  So, by that assumption at least, there'd be no way for them to become Empowered to current levels without immediately taking up the Guardianship.  Does that make sense?
Follow mostly what I've been trying to get across... that the Powers that made up the Sidhe royalty wouldn't have just stood around doing nothing once they were "created".  Combine that with current Mab having been Lady and it shows those Powers were in place before Mab ascended to Queen, and thus were already Guardians prior to Hastings - how much prior we can only guess.  The assumption made in the op that Mab's ascension to Queen and the Fae ascension to Guardianship do not have to match, in fact may not be able to match because of the above.

5
Im still lost...What Time?  What Waiting?  I thought we were talking about either they (Hecate, etc) consolidating power and Creating the two Maiden/Mother/Crone sets fresh right then, or else giving the consolidated Power a pre-existing, far less powerful "Summer" and "Winter" wyldfae Courts with a freshly minted new Purpose.  Im not seeing any circumstance where waiting would even be possible.
Never mind.

6
Huh?  What do you mean by that part?
When Hecate and whoever else were combined to make the current Fae Courts, I don't think the Mothers, Queens and Ladies would have just stood around doing nothing, waiting for their turn at the helm of Guardianship.  That much power isn't put into one place for the purpose of letting it sit fallow. I'm thinking that when those positions were created they were put into use immediately.  So... if there was a Queen before Mab, and the current Winter Mother is the original, they had to have been in place as Guardians before the current Mab ascended to being Queen, who know for how long.

I just don't see the proposition that the Fae becoming Guardians and Mab moving from Lady to Queen as necessarily being the same event.

7
I think you're missing the point--the positions are explicitly referred to as: The Queen that Was, the Queen that Is and the Queen that Will Be. Why would the Mother be the Queen that Was if she never, well, Was? I agree that she doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen to be the original Mother, but this represents an in-universe oddity if there is no explanation for why the Queens are referred to in this way in Summer Knight. There's a qualitative difference between that and the relationship of a Prince to a King in a Kingdom's hierarchy.
True enough, perhaps it was a bad analogy.  Think, then of the US.  When it was first created Washington became the first President.  There were none before him.  He wasn't VP and take over later, etc.  The requisite to have been Queen before being Mother -- the requirement to have been a Queen before being mother might have been created along with the posts themselves with an exception written in for the post's first occupant.

Given the Names of who we believe some of the previous Powers were who went into making up the Sidhe royalty, perhaps their previous incarnations satisfied the requirement from the getgo somehow, I don't know.  I just don't see those level of Powers waiting in the wings for centuries or even millennia after their composition into their current form before they could start doing their Job.  That's the sort of Power level that needs to be activated on a high priority basis, not laid on a shelf for umpteen years before being used.

I'm just unsure about when the Fae Courts became what they are and don't find the evidence given being compelling enough to say that Mab and Titania both got their current jobs at the same time the Fae became Guardians.  Guardianship could have predated it. We just don't have enough to strongly point either way.

If the proposal is accurate, though, I have a question...
Since the Nordics were apparently in charge of the Gates, what entity in their group - most particularly assignable as an equivalent of Winter Queen, would have "died" (or some supernatural parallel) to have opened the slot for Mab to fill?  Anyone have good candidates among either the classic Nordic pantheon, the Jotan "elites" or some associated group that might been the previous "Queen" Mab took over for?

8
fwiw, Summer and Winter as courts technically might have predated the ascention to Gate Guardians and the consolidation of Powers that you describe.  They'd have simply been another pair of Wyldfae courts without the sort of qualified-supremacy we see now, but they might have been around, and even had a Lady and Queen it not the full triplet-form we see (or all three, who knows).  One Clue that always pushed me that way was the fact that Mother Winter is the only Mother Winter ever, but she is also The Queen That Was by definition, thus methinks she had to be a queen of some proto-winter Court that predates the ascension.
Seems reasonable except for one thing.  The Mother doesn't necessarily have to have been Queen prior to being established in that position.  At first inception they needed someone/thing to install in the position.  Doesn't mean that person/being was in any position of power/authority that could be called "Queen".  Sort of like creating a new kingdom, some guy takes power and calls himself king, - or gets appointed king by his battle companions... doesn't mean he had to be a prince before hand.  Nit picky, I understand, but...

9
The main question/comment/idea I have relates to this –
Quote
Fact:  Mab and Titania aren't the original "Queens" Mab and Titania:
Quote from: 2015 Dragoncon
Quote
I was wondering if Mab was the first Winter Queen?
No.  Mab was not the first Mab.  Mab was originally Winter Lady, and Lea was her Jenny Greenteeth.  She was her sidekick and handmaiden.  And so when Mab got promoted Lea did too.  So she got to be much more powerful and awesome.  But that was a while back.  When that happened.  And the same thing with Titania.  The Winter Queens actually died.  The last time things got awful in the wizard world.  So things are about to get awful in the wizard world again and they're a bit nervous.  They're a bit nervous about Dresden.  Well, Titania is very nervous about Dresden.  Mab is keeping her enemies close.

When you said, at the beginning
Quote
I've long embraced the theory that the Winter Court's assumption of Outer Gate duty was concurrent with Mab's ascension.
are you referring to the current Mab or the original?

The current disposition of the various fae royalty comes from a compilation of a number of older Powers into a single pile which was then divided out into the six-part format we currently see.  When is it proposed that this happened and most importantly … why?  What use a Mother, Queen and Lady for Summer and Winter, with the level of power and responsibility they currently have, before – possibly long before – they ever took over as Guardians?  I’m not sure it fits well.

I generally agree it’s likely the Nordics were the previous Guardians, but it’s not necessarily a sure thing.  I’ve argued before that if they were, it’s likely that the Jotans were the actual Guardians of the Gates because they have much the same warlike disposition as the current Winter Fae, while Odin and company were more likely in the position Summer now holds, able to get involved with mortals and keeping them safe from the Jotans the way Summer keeps us safe from Winter.

What use would the Nordics have had to have such strong potential contenders for their position as the Fae courts in their current format?  It just doesn’t feel right.  I think the Fae are older than we’ve been thinking and that, though the current Mab and Titania got their current roles around the time of Hastings, it’s likely that the Fae Courts have been Guardians much longer than that.  How long I couldn't say.


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DF Spoilers / Re: Cowl's Identity [FPOTM2 11.2016]
« on: November 16, 2016, 07:11:26 PM »
I once read a contemporary Arthurian series by an author named AA Antonasio told primarily from Merlin's POV, wherein Merlin was a demon/Fallen Angel that had been tricked into raping a woman and trapped in a human form which aged backward.  Thereafter he forswore his sinful ways and started working toward redemption and attempting to earn his childhood and eventual (re)Birth.  He was just aging backward though, not actually experiencing time backward or gaining knowledge of the future or anything.  Was an interesting take on the whole mythology as it tried to set up a magical world that still mostly embraced the laws of physics.  The Aesir, for example, were beings made of electromagnetic energy that inhabited the earth's magnetic field (which they perceived as The World Tree).

fwiw, according to tvtropes Gerald Morris' Arthurian novel The Squire's Tale uses this Merlin Sickness not for Merlin but for the hermit Trevisant. He ages normally but remembers less of the past and more of the future as time goes by,
Interesting.  I've never been a fan of Antonasio... something about his writing style just rubs be the wrong way, so it's no surprise I missed that one.  I'll probably have to look up Morris' stuff, though.

Thanks for the references. 

11
DF Spoilers / Re: Cowl's Identity [FPOTM2 11.2016]
« on: November 16, 2016, 06:31:03 PM »
I had to change it to other,
How's about, an alteration version of the original Merlin inside the same timeline.
Classically, Merlin exists backward through time in all timelines, but with the DR thing, 5 different times at the same time, I think 5 variation ended up in every timeline and grew off from there.
Not being contentious... just curious.

The "Merlin lives backwards" thing, as far as I remember, was the product/invention of T.H. White's Once and Future King and was later coopted by the Disney Corp. when they turned it into an animated film.
Quote
The film is based on the novel of the same name, which was first published in 1938 as a single novel. It was later republished in 1958 as the first book of T. H. White's tetralogy The Once and Future King. The Sword in the Stone was released to theaters on December 25, 1963 to mixed reviews, though it was a box office success.
Wikipedia -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sword_in_the_Stone_(film)

I don't recall the "backwards" part actually being in the Disney film, nor do I recall the concept being embraced by Mary Stewart in her series which started with The Cristal Cave.  The Arthurian legend has been a particular interest of mine for some time and I've read lots of stories (seen a lot of movies, too) of various levels of fact and fiction related to it but don't recall anything but White's story where Merlin is living in reverse time. 

Do you have any references I can look at?  I'd love to see what they have to say.  tyvm

12
DF Spoilers / Re: Cowl's Identity [FPOTM2 11.2016]
« on: November 15, 2016, 06:19:30 PM »
Who is Cowl?

For the purpose of this poll, we're assuming that Harry's observation in Dead Beat is correct, and that Cowl is a mortal practitioner.

For the sake of keeping the list reasonable, Time Travel/Parallel Universe options have not been made available for anyone other than Harry.

Some that are listed seem highly unlikely, due to being dead, on-page with Cowl, the wrong gender, or some other limiting factor.  But as some theorize that Simon could be Cowl, I've included others that are normally overlooked as well.

Curator's note:  Griff followed my requested convention for this kind of thing by starting with "Other."  If you vote "Other" please post your choice so that it may be added to the bottom of the list.  Then you can change your vote to your actual choice.  -Serack
Just sayin' :)

13
DF Spoilers / Re: Cowl's Identity [FPOTM2 11.2016]
« on: November 15, 2016, 04:13:49 PM »
I had to go with Simon, like everyone else.  I looked at all the choices and found the vase majority of them absurd.  Simon's the only one that makes sense in the list given.  No, I have no other candidates.

Btw, wasn't Grevane on-screen with Cowl at the Darkhallow in DB?  Cowl was there veiled as a "passive zombie" and stepped in when Ramirez took Grevane out, DB, Ch. 42.

14
DFRPG / Re: Circle limitations and a dying game
« on: November 10, 2016, 09:00:37 PM »
This, this, a thousand times this!
They may have seemed reasonable in other contexts, but they went nuclear over this issue.  WHY?

Did they know the DF stories?  How well?

The thing is, there was clearly a mismatch of expectations & understanding of what a circle is/does; a wizard, in-character, would know what a circle is/does, and wouldn't raise a circle expecting it to last in these circumstances.

Letting a PC do something in the clear player-expectation of ONE outcome, when the character would clearly expect something ELSE ... well, yeah.  I'd cry foul, too.

If I'm GM'ing a game where "draw a magic circle of protection" ONLY protects against magic, AND can easily be mundanely-broken, AND there are Mundane combatants around to break it ... well, I'd feel obligated compelled  :-]  to offer the player a caution, "Your character would know that this circle can easily be broken by THIS or THAT combatant, if they know they SHOULD break it."

OTOH, if the player was familiar with the stories, then I'd presume they already knew this, and were doing some tactical/strategic thing (and wouldn't bother with the caution).

Given this level of misunderstanding, I'd do a serious run-through of game mechanics and setting-expectations.
All the players know the stories, they've read all the full books through SG as well as Side Jobs.  It's partly a matter of their misinterpretation of what JB's told us through Harry about how circles work, even with examples in the stories (like Binder in TC) and partly a matter of my thinking they did understand.

None of them are on this board and haven't dived nearly as deeply as I have. In game terms, I guess I'd be somewhere between Chest Deep and Submerged (given some of the real power players here)... but my players might barely qualify as Feet In The Water; they're read the stories but don't do re-reads.  When a new volume comes out they want to read it, but don't lose sleep at night in anticipation.  They don't take notes, compose theories or any of that.  They just read and play the game.

When this broke it was really an eye-opener - for all of us - about what we've read vs. what we think we remember/understand.  When the balloon goes up they're used to a much faster pace melee and want to get to the gory and nitty gritty asap.  DFRPG can take some thought and consideration to set things up, get the parameters right, etc.  Sometimes they launch without thinking it all through and find themselves in a bad place.  Most of the time it's actually provided some very interesting table time watching them dig themselves out of the hole.  This time, however, it went sour with a vengeance.

As I said, I'm going to show them all of the above (this Vet's Day weekend we have the next game session) before we start play and have some talk-it-over time.  With what's been presented I think they're going to be good with it.

15
DFRPG / Re: Circle limitations and a dying game
« on: November 09, 2016, 09:51:24 PM »
When the rules butt heads with narrative, I think compels solve a lot of issues.
It's looking like that's going to have to become Gospel at our table.   ;D

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