Thanks for the comments on custom powers, I'll rewrite them later.

20 000 people is a bit much, I think. That many people would create a crowd so large that over 99% of them would be standing around doing nothing because there's other people in the way.

This is once again based on Jim's comments. When someone asked him about BCVs being taken down, he literally said the number of people that would take elder BCVs on was in the 20 thousand range. It wouldn't work in a game, since it's completely unfeasible to run that many numbers, but that's how it went down in canon.

My idea about physical power is that vampires sort of cap out physically after a while. In game terms, the optional power list for the template doesn't include True Aim or Mythic Speed. So they explore magic. Look at the Red Court. The old ones use magic and willpower instead of muscle, while the mooks are pure physical monsters.

See, here's the thing.

Lord Raith has physical Supernaturals. White Court is supposed to be physically the weakest of vampire courts. Black Court is supposed to be the most physically intimidating. Ortega also has some Supernaturals and they're also not supposed to be as tough physically. If the best and most ancient of Black Court aren't tougher than the best and the brightest of WCV and RCV, those statements sort of all fall apart. I think they're basically mandated to have Mythics given the stats that other vampires receive in OW.

So essentially, these builds are basically invincible by large numbers of weak creatures but are easily defeated by one or two creatures that come close to their refresh. (the exact opposite of what you were looking for, IMHO)

Suggestions, then?

Because frankly, even without inventing any custom powers or adding anything outrageous the same issues apply.

Super speed, strength, cloak of shadows - those are already present in the base BCV vampires. Making them better is only reasonable for an elder/ancient template. Depending on the interpretation, some form of flight or levitation might be there too - worst case, in a shapeshifted form. Still, while flight is helpful, the same issue of a BCV being able to crush a huge crowd by running away will still apply, whether or not they have flight, since speed and cloak of shadows alone will ensure nigh-untouchability.

And if that's enough that a huge group of mortals can't touch them, then I can't think of a solution, besides inventing some kind of a weaksauce weakness that's not present in normal BCVs or maybe some kind of a faith-based compel vs their HC to deprive them of their powers.

Thoughts?

Sanctaphrax asked me to make a thread for the discussion of Ancient BCV templates

So, what did you have in mind?

As far as the custom abilities go, let's go over them:

The shapeshifter vampire's Flowing Form is based on a stunt I've seen once, where someone proposed free-action shapeshifting. So I decided to make it a -2 Refresh ability, just to be on the safe side. Semi-Intellectus is based on the idea that with a couple of hours and Thaumaturgy, you can basically make any skill roll you like. Based on the Time Increments table, I judged it to be worth about 8 shifts to have such ability "in an instant", therefore the -4 Refresh cost.

The Spellcaster is... well, I don't think he deserves much discussion, as that's basically a Senior Council template tacked onto a BCV template. I thought about making it more generic ie. listing specializations as (Element Power +3 Control +3, Element 2 Power +2 Control +2....) rather than specifying in advance, but decided against it.

Mind-bender's Incite Emotion upgrade is perfectly canon(it's what Vitto Malvora used). Psychic Assault is based on a similar Incite Emotion upgrade, I doubled the cost to -2 just to be safe on the Refresh side. Quick Domination is hard to estimate. I judged that a elder BCV vampire who was trying would have most anyone helpless within minutes, so this is also sort of based on Time Increments. Quick Renfeield is also based on the ~10 shifts that are required to go from a day to an instant.

The Quintessential Vampire's Demon Self is very hard to estimate, since it's so omni-applicable. The restriction that it's only available to negative Refresh characters helps, but I still have no clue what's the proper pricing on that ability. Entropic Claws I'm not sure about, I just liked the idea of the claws of an ancient vampire being equal to battlefield weaponry. Curse Transmittance is Venomous + once again, roughly 10 shifts in Time Increments(as I estimated that normally, one would become a BCV in a day's time). Weather Control is, at its heart, just another way to make maneuvers, like Incite Emotion. I decided that affecting Conviction zones would be worth an additional -2 Refresh. Weather Control is also an ability that makes me wish we had "Area Increments", but lacking those I decided to provide a rough guideline. Greater Cloak of Shadows is there to support them being ridiculously hard to find, which seems appropriate given their 'Must hide' position in the Dresdenverse.

So, do you have any other questions Sanctaphrax?

Edit note: Changed to be more focused and more scary based on Belial666's comments. Given that I emphasized their spawning capabilities, I think it might now be obvious as to why each one of those guys would be a fair match for a nation. They're still not quite as optimized as they might be, as I tried to retain some vampire flavor in each one of them. They're still a bit of a WIP, so expect some more edits to them(and there might be some minor mistakes, I'll correct those later).

Black Court Ancients. This is mostly based on Jim's comments that old Black Court vampires were /terrifying/, to the point where a relatively small union of them is a fair match for /Mab/ or other characters of true heavyweight status. Thus, the following stats are to the tune of 50-60ish Refresh. They're meant to represent the millenia-old monsters, capable of standing up to demon lords and such.

High Concept: Ancient Black Court Vampire
Aspects: Cruelty Beyond Imagination, Older Than Most Countries, Ruthless Pragmatism, All Others Are Mere Cattle, Drawing Attention To Oneself Is Pure Stupidity
Skills:
Epic: Athletics, Fists
Fantastic: Intimidation, Stealth, Lore
Superb: Alertness, Endurance, Conviction, Might
Great: Discipline, Presence, Resources, Contacts
Most other skills default to Good or Fair.

Base Powers:
Claws [–1]
Echoes of the Beast [–1]
Living Dead [–1]
Mythic Toughness [–6]
The Catch [+1 to +3] is Bram Stoker style weaknesses. However, the truly ancient Black Court Elders tend to become less susceptible to the traditional weaknesses of their kind and usually have a less susceptible Catch. The specific way in which a given Black Court Ancient is less affected by the usual Catches of their kind is best determined by the GM based on the needs of their story.
Blood Drinker [–1]
Feeding Dependency [+1] affecting the following powers:
Beast Change [–1]
Cloak of Shadows [–1]
Mythic Strength [–6]
Supernatural Speed [–4]
Domination (Master Dominator, Possession) [–7]
Gaseous Form [–3]
Base Template Refresh: 29(Assuming +2 Catch)

Spawning other vampires does not have a defined power. However, it deserves a note. In the usual case, a Master Black Court vampire can spawn rank-and-file vampires who then may spawn feral vampires incapable of creating their own spawn. The might of true Elders is far vaster. It takes many generations before their 'descendants' are feral and unable to spawn their own children. Thus, if an Elder wishes to attract attention and create an army(which is very unlikely, but it can happen) he could have thousands of new vampires under his command in a very short period of time.

Thus, remember that an ancient BCV is never without his servants. A typical scourge of of an ancient will have(besides himself, of course) up to a dozen "master" BCV and however many rank-and-file BCVs and Renfields as they're comfortable with having around. Despite their tremendous power, most BCVs are uncomfortable with confrontation. In most cases, they'll use their mundane resources to see if they can get rid of whoever is their enemy. If that doesn't work out, they'll send one or two master BCVs along with several Renfields and rank-and-file to fight their enemies(alternatively, they will choose another proxy to fight in their stead - such as summoned demons or other entities for the Spellcaster flavour of BCVs). If the enemies prove too formidable, they'll simply withdraw from the field. If directly confronted, most of them will simply choose to escape. Only truly spectacular circumstances will force an ancient BCV to fight to the death.

Black Court Vampires develop in a lot of different ways. The above template can be considered a complete package for most elder Black Court Vampires. For a true ancient, one that has seen thousands of years, add one of the following templates to the above:
Shapeshifter:
Delete Claws, Beast Change, Mythic Toughness, Mythic Strength, Supernatural Speed and Gaseous Form from the above and add the following. I'm unsure on the pricing of Flowing Form and Semi-Intellectus. If you think they deserve a higher Refresh cost, just decrease his number of Modular Abilities.
Powers:
True Shapeshifting [-4]
Flowing Form[-2]: Improves True Shapeshifting, so that the vampire can shift into any form possible as a free action.
Semi-Intellectus[-4]: The vampire does not become an Intellectus, but he comes close. True Shapeshifting now allows for re-allocating social and mental skills when changing shape. In the case of skills such as Resources or Contacts, this is usually simply the vampire gaining the knowledge of what shape he has to take in order to access such resources and how to behave(ie. by shapeshifting into a millionaire and using his bank accounts or changing shape into a money launderer to get Contacts within a mafia).
There are limits to this kind of shapeshifting. The skills the vampire gains usually only represent generic knowledge. For example, he might be able to shapeshift into a millionaire and gain his Resources score - but he would be unable to shift into a member of a security company to gain knowledge of their passwords. In other words, this is a rationalization for his access to particular Skills, not nigh-omniscience.
He may also spend his Modular Abilities on Stunts and non-physical powers as well, so long as those abilities are more instinctive rather than learned. That is, he could assume Psychometry or Incite Emotion but he would be unable to use Evocation or Thaumaturgy and and he would certainly be unable to gain any kind of Sponsored Magic.
Modular Abilities [-40]: Gives 38 Refresh to distribute among appropriate abilities. As a clarification, the vampire is capable of assuming Social and Mental equivalents of Toughness powers and a great number of other exotic abilities thanks to Semi-Intellectus.
Catch[+1 to +3]: No matter what kind of Toughness abilities the vampire gets, he always retains his usual Catch.
Stress:
Mental: OOOO to OOOO (OOOOOO)*, 1+ extra minor*
Physical: OOOO to OOOO (OOOOOO)*, 1+ extra minor*
Social: OOOO to OOOO (OOOOOO)*, 1+ extra minor*
Shapeshifter BCV Refresh: -58
*Depends on currently adapted form. In most cases, assume Mythic Toughness or outright Immunity to currently attacked track, 2 extra minor from skill and 1-2 extra minor from a stunt.

With enough Modular Abilities and points that they might run out of non-custom powers before they fill them all, at least +7(or +8 if their cap is Legendary) to every single Skill(but probably 8-9 due to stunts or more if supernatural powers are involved) check due to free action shapeshifting and insane flexibility, shapeshifter vampires are very tough. They can easily become the next best thing to invulnerable(in all their stress tracks) and have access to an astonishing number of potential powers and stunts.

Do they want cash? They can shapeshift, gain Resources 7, a stunt that grants them a +1 or +2 to that. Do they want an army at their side? Contacts 7, +1 or +2 from a stunt. Research an enemy? Once again, Lore or Scholarship at 8-9. Combat? At any time in defense, they're probably going to have the stress track you're attacking immune or otherwise toughened up, their defensive skill somewhere in the 10 range plus an array of extra consequences. On the offensive, they'll have Weapon: 8 attacks, quite probably with(again) 8-9 in the skill and Mythic Strength or something along those lines.

They are not as focused as the rest, but their sheer flexibility alone is absolutely staggering. There's very little they can't do.

Spellcaster:
Swap Discipline with Intimidation and Conviction with Stealth. Delete Domination and Cloak of Shadows. Mythic Strength becomes Supernatural Strength.
Add the following:
Stunts:
Focused Power: Adds 2 minor mental consequences that may absorb spellcasting stress.
Powers:
Evocation[-3]
Thaumaturgy[-3]
The Sight[-1]: Does not possess Soulgaze, as there is no soul to be gazed.
Black Court Magic[-3]: Black Court Vampires this invested in spellcasting eventually learn to tap into the nature of their own curse to fuel their spells. This relentless supply of dark energy effectively acts as a source of Sponsored Magic, allowing for the vampire to use all Thaumaturgy at the speed of Evocation. It also adds +1 to control or complexity of all malevolent magic.
Well of Power[-4]: The vampire may spend up to 4 points of sponsor debt per scene without actually accumulating debt.
Refinement[-27]:
Evocation(Air Control +2 Power +1, Earth, Fire, Spirit Control +6 Power +5, Water Control +4 Power +3)
Thaumaturgy(Divination Control +1, Entropomancy Control +3, Necromancy Control +2, Psychomancy Control +6 Complexity +5, Summoning and Binding Control +4)
Foci: Rune-incribed Chainmail(Offensive/Defensive Spirit Control +3) Staff(Offensive/Defensive Spirit Power +3)
Stress:
Mental: OOOO, 1 extra minor, 2 extra minor for spellcasting only
Physical: OOOO (OOOOOO), 1 extra minor, Armor: 3 from an exquisitely crafted chainmail against a wide variety of attacks
Social: OOOO
Spellcaster BCV Refresh: -61

The revised version is even more impressive, capable of 15-shift offensive Evocations with 14 Power. This makes them very nearly capable of one-shotting people even if they have Mythic Toughness and Speed. Given that their focus is Spirit, they can also go for the mental stress track, which makes them most likely capable of one-shotting a couple of zones. Control 15/Power 14 defensive Evocations, Epic Athletics and Mythic Toughness and Supernatural Speed for passive defenses. Capable of tapping into their Sponsored Magic freely 4 times per scene and with 2 additional mental consequences - they have a vast endurance for fights. Insane flexibility with a Soulfire-alike.

In the regular Thaumaturgy department, they're capable of creating up to 20-shift complexity spells with no real loss of resources(up to 25 for Psychomancy). Due to their awesome Psychomancy powers, if they really want to, they can easily mind control several humans into acting as their sacrifices, thus catapulting their possible rituals into city-flattening department. While they lack the ability to create Renfields, they can still very easily turn people into vampires(like other Ancients, this can get into thousands within a short period of time), who will also have their own consequence slots to contribute. With a Fantastic Discipline, they'll never fail a Thaumaturgy control roll unless they're in a hurry.

Mindbender:
The Mind-bender variant of Black Court deals in and improves their psychic attacks into attacks of such brutality that they can crush and rewrite personalities within moments.
Swap Discipline with Stealth and Might with Deceit.
Greater Glamour[-4]: This is not the Fae ability. However, Elder Black Court vampires are able to create illusions in the minds of others as easily as the Sidhe.
Domination(At Range, Communication, Fields of Dead Eyes, Master Dominator, Minds Are My Playthings, Quick Domination, Quick Renfield, Psychic Assault, Possession) [-23]:
At Range[-1]: As per the similar Incite Emotion Upgrade. Requires Quick Renfield and Quick Domination.
Communication[-1]: The vampire may telepathically communicate with and issue commands to anyone he has under his sway.
Fields of Dead Eyes[-3]: The vampire mind-bender can attack up to Conviction zones simultaneously with his Domination ability.
Minds Are My Playthings[-2]: The vampire is initiated into the more subtle and less destructive methods of swaying minds. He may use this ability as a maneuver(at a +2 to the roll), creating temporary Aspects reflecting his control over the victim's mind. There is a more dreaded side to this ability, however. If the vampire deals Consequences to his target, it is he who defines their nature, not his victim. His "Renfields" can still be the horribly maimed individuals, but he has another option now - of putting others under his sway completely, while still making them functional people, rather than raging madmen. In other words, such individuals get all the benefits of being a Renfield with none of the apparent side effects(they are still under the vampire's complete control, naturally).
Psychic Assault[-2]: Upgrades Master Dominator. Attacks are now treated as Weapon:4.
Quick Domination[-2]: The mind-bender does not require a helpless victim to use his Domination ability. He may use Domination if he's able to touch his target.
Quick Renfield[-5]: The mind-bender's Create Renfield ability works in an instant. As soon as the target is Taken Out, he can become a Renfield.
Stress:
Mental: OOOO, 1 extra minor
Physical: OOOO (OOOOOO), 1 extra minor
Social: OOOO
Mind-bender BCV Refresh: -56

Not as offensively powerful as the spellcaster vampire, the mindbender still packs a punch. Capable of reprogramming a couple of zones at once into his willing super-powered slaves automatically, the mind-bender is a scary individual who can convert a city into his willing slaves in a few days. His Renfields do not lose their creativity, will or imagination either - nor they do not die automatically after a year or two. Think regular Renfields are bad? What do you think happens when a vampire has Renfields of every supernatural template imaginable?

Not as flexible or outright powerful as the others, but the mind-bender is the one template of BCVs I've statted here that is almost guaranteed to survive the usual torches-and-pitchforks approach.

Quintessential Vampire:
This type of vampire does not focus on any one part of his vampirism or learn outside tricks - rather, he just becomes stronger and stronger over time, delving deeper into the curse of vampirism.

Refresh costs below represent the difference between the base template and upgrades, rather than being an absolute cost(ie. Mythic Speed is marked as -2, as the base template already has Supernatural Speed).
Add the following:
Demonic Co-Pilot[-1]
Demon Self[-2]: The Black Court Vampire has reached such attunement to the curse that it assists him in all of his efforts. This upgrades Demonic Co-Pilot - it adds to /all/ rolls and has no negative qualities. It is only available to negative Refresh characters who are entirely in tune with their selfish desires.
Entropic Claws[-1]: The Claws of such a vampire are imbued with the entropic qualities of the curse. They count as Weapon: 4. Requires Claws.
Curse Transmittance[-4]: The Claws of a Black Court Vampire transmit the entropic nature of the curse. This power effectively functions like Venomous Claws, except the Aspect is ‘Cursed With Death’.
However, there’s a scarier part. If a target is Taken Out from the damage of the curse, they rise an Exchange later as a Black Court Vampire, fully under the control of the Elder. Requires Entropic Claws.
Physical Immunity[-2]
Physical Immunity Catch[Same as base Template]: Usual ancient BCV weaknesses. Quintessential vampires are even more likely than other BCV elders to have vastly tougher to satisfy Catches.
Entropic Shield[-12]: No mental, social or physical attack may deal more than 1 point of stress to the vampire. Note that this reduction is applied after all other reductions - ie. if he was wearing Armor:3 a 7-shift physical attack would at first be reduced by his armor to a 4-shift attack and afterwards would be reduced to 1-shift(instead of the other way around). This ability has no Catch.
Weather Control[-3] Vampires of this degree learn to affect the weather with the power of their curse alone. This effectively means that the vampire is capable of using maneuvers to place weather-related Aspects. This is a Conviction roll, affecting up to Conviction zones automatically. Conditions range from fog(difficulty 2-3) to strong winds and rains(4-5) to hurricanes(difficulty 7-8).*
Following powers are affected by Feeding Dependancy:
Greater Cloak of Shadows[-1]: Upgrades the Stealth bonus by an additional +2. Requires Cloak of Shadows.
Mythic Speed[-2]
Human Guise[-0]: Unlike all other types of Black Court Vampires, the quintessential vampire delved into his nature deeply enough to master it. They no longer appear as rotting corpses but are instead able to pass for human.

*Note that, outside of combat time, a quintessential vampire should be able to conjure hurricanes and storms that can cover entire cities. As a general guideline assume that covering a city with a particular brand of weather increases the difficulty(or the time spent using the ability, as per time increment table; though gathering this much power over long periods of time is very noticeable) somewhere between 10 and 14 shifts.
Stress:
Mental: OOOO, 1 extra minor
Physical: OOOO (OOOOOO), 1 extra minor, Physical Immunity
Social: OOOO
Quintessential Vampire Refresh: 57

Say hello to Weapon: 10 venomous attacks that turn your allies into his allies upon their death, combined with Physical Immunity(and a custom toughness power that protects all of his tracks) and a full array of physical and funky vampire powers, we have one nasty son of a bitch here. The Quintessential Vampire is the King of creating entire armies of BCV servants. By my rough estimates(very conservative), if a vampire like this goes full-out with converting, he could have an army of a hundred thousand in a week. His weather control powers are capable of wiping off cities of the map if he really wants to.

imagine the effect of third eye on all those minor talents, the WC trying to deal thousand of dark mini warlocks.

^ I like this theory.

We know that the Black Council is very much against White Council. The 3-Eye drug might have been an initial attempt to spread the resources of the council thin. Think about it - Luccio already confirmed that with the huge population explosion, Wardens are stretched thinner than ever and it's very difficult to effectively find and educate new wizards before they turn warlock.

We also know that everyone in DF has some potential for magic. Most people don't have enough oomph to become full-blown wizards but everyone can learn some magic.

So, there's probably plenty of people who would be capable of some black magic shenanigans, but who would otherwise never even think of trying anything magical - the Masquerade is in place. However, if they take a drug like 3-Eye, they might just start thinking 'What if magic is real?'.

Suddenly, you have entire leagues of minor talents dabbling in magic(some of whom will inevitably try Black Magic), spreading the Council's resources even thinner and creating a lot of potential recruits for the Black Council.

My guess is that Sells didn't manufacture 3-Eye for profit or personal reasons. He did it in return for knowledge of magic. Ie. his deal with whatever entity that granted him power or knowledge was that he would manufacture and distribute 3-Eye.

PLAYER: Can I melt the ice golem by throwing cold spells at it?
GM: No
PLAYER: Can I kill the Acid Elemental by throwing acid at it?
GM: No

Are we talking about D&D? There were ways to pierce elemental immunity there.

PLAYER: Can I open my manacles with my lockpicking skills even though they have been magically welded instead of having a lock?
GM: No

If your lockpicking has a supernatural nature to it? Sure, why not?

PLAYER: Can I socially fast-talk the gelatinous cube into letting me pass even though it's mindless, blind and deaf?
GM: No

Then grant it a mind, learn a telepathy power, succeed on an <social skill of your choice> check, there you go.

PLAYER: Can I bribe the traps in the dungeon into not closing if I step on them?
GM: No

I guess that depends on whether animism exists in the setting or whether you can talk to objects otherwise, now doesn't it? However, in this case you're applying a social context to a physical challenge. This is not the case with Physical Immunity, where a physical challenge cannot be overcome with a physical attack. Otherwise, refer to the above.

The prevailing opinion on Physical Immunity seems to be that it is entirely based upon GM fiat. If that is the case, then it should not be given a refresh cost.

Yeah, I think that nails it.

I mean, if Physical Immunity is already meant to be a plot device power, then why is it given a Refresh cost at all? I mean, it's not entirely inaccesible. Note that PI is an option for Changeling/Scion type characters which means it should be at least balanced for PC use.

Anyhow, the power just seems excessive and it entirely strains my suspension of disbelief. I mean, even characters in freaking /Nobilis/, who can casually put out stars and juggle continents can't get this level of invulnerability(at least in 3rd edition, it was possible in 2nd).

I probably wouldn't mind this so much, as someone mentioned, if it was explictly noted that plot-level events can pierce even PI.

If you need a character that's nigh-invulnerable, then an easier thing to do would be noting that Toughness could be expanded indefinitely(ie. -8 for Armor 4, 8 boxes, -10 for Armor 5, 10 boxes etc), expanding regeneration into new areas and leaving PI to cover only specific threats(like the Outsider immunity to magic or being immaterial, I don't mind those so much).

As a note, could the people here cut back on the insults? I'm neither an idiot nor a munchkin. So, thanks in advance, would be nice.

Note, however, that I'm not asking here whether or not you can beat someone with PI. I'm focusing on whether it's an appropriate ability.

Would you allow for total immunities to other things? How about Social and Mental tracks? How about an immunity to Physical Blocks or Maneuvers(call it "Unstoppable Force" or whatever)? How about an immunity to assessments("Null Presence")? Or Declarations(Reality Warper)?

If any of those would be considered inappropriate, why do Attacks get a pass? What makes them special?