Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - Griffyn612

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 119
91
DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: August 06, 2021, 09:50:16 PM »
But they have the Smithsonian right there. That's too good not to use .
The Smithsonian is so big, I imagine they could hide all sorts of things. But hopefully the more dangerous items would be away from the capital.

Still, I'd love a side series about them.

92
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 06, 2021, 01:32:46 AM »
Yes, I think Nemesis more unisex than anything.. Not to be confused with Outsiders, but then again. . . He Who Walks Beside, is a "He," it isn't She Who Walks Beside or It Who Walks Beside, it is "He."  So Outsiders or Walkers definitely have a male gender I'd say...  However what is confusing and I just double checked in Battle Ground when Harry confronts Justine and company.. He demands a name,

page 359
Okay, but on the very next page.. Harry still demands a name.. Justine shutters and says..
More confusing a couple of lines down Harry shutters at how close it was, he had almost let this thing on Demonreach past it's defenses and says...
But then on the very next page, the top of the very next page.. Harry accuses Justine et al of sending Thomas to assassinate Etri.  And....

Then another line or two and he is back to calling it a Walker.. Then back to Nemesis further down the page.. On the next page as he falls overboard and Alfred wisks him away he is back to just calling him/her/it an Outsider..

So, back in White Night, Lash tells Harry that Walkers are Outsider warriors, elite knights you might say..  Okay, I get that...

Titania back in Cold Days, tells Harry the Enemy's name finally, Nemesis.  The impression I got and I'm not alone from the posts here since Cold Days came out that Nemesis was apart from your average Outsider..  Now it isn't all that clear, it appears they are all one of the same, or maybe clearer to what you are thinking a spell, or computer program, or maybe closer to what Bob is, a spirit of some kind.  But classified how?  Genus; Nemesis, Class; Outsider, Family; Walker?   ???

But most significant I think, from this data we must conclude that at the tender age of 16, Harry kicked Nemesis's ass.. :o
Harry is an Insider called Hoss who is the Winter Knight.
Lloyd Slate was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.
Tam Lin was an Insider not called Hoss who was the Winter Knight.

Beside is an Outsider called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Before is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.
Behind is an Outsider not called Nemesis who is a Walker.

Simple at that for me.

93
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 06, 2021, 12:12:19 AM »
the Sidhe tend to be more correct in their grammer of course, but that doesn't mean we don't have it wrong on our end, we just saw a 'she' or the vessel she used that let her manifest as Nemesis was itself female. If Beside comes into power through Justine I think what the general world will refer to 'it' as, would be vastly different than say if it's born into her male child. We already have an example of this, Drakul. He's clearly in a male body, but this in the know call him a creature and 'it'. 'It' all night be down to a certain prejudice of view. Despite becoming male, they still perceive him as the original unisex being. Mythology still perceives him as male though.
*Speculatively, perhaps Nemesis the Goddess is connected to one of the mantles still floating around and she's specifically trying to mirror it to become it's vessel?
** Old manifestations would still possess similar attributes of course. When Molly's use of fear was tempered to fall into grey areas of magic that didn't break free will, she suddenly resembled the winter lady enough to don the mantle. And the idea of such old manifestations being fed into the table of course, comes up with Mabs scales.
So tell me I'm understanding your current hypothesis:
  • The Greek goddess Nemesis, daughter of Nyx and Erebus, was an Outsider all along. She got along well with native Insider gods and goddesses, had festivals and temples and a generally positive standing with the Greek populace.
  • For some reason not said in mythology, Nemesis fell out of favor with humans and gods alike, and decided to become their enemy. She changed her nature from avatar of implacable justice to a shadowy spymaster that seeks to destroy all of reality and bring down everyone.

Is that what you're saying? Or am I misunderstanding?

EDIT: And to clarify, I'm just looking to confirm so I can approach theory crafting for it.

I.E. if you were saying Beside is Nemesis, then one might say Before is Oizys, and Behind is Moros.

Oizys, being one of Nemesis's sisters, who was the personification of misery/anxiety/depression, like we've seen Before's mental whammy cause. And Moros, being one of Nemesis's brothers, who was the personification of a mortal's impending doom, a hateful spirit that allowed mortals to foresee their death, much like how Behind taunted Harry.

All of which are children of Nyx (Night) and Erebus (Darkness), which, when combined, is basically Dark Night (presumably like a sky empty of stars).

There are other siblings, too, so there may be better fits, but those are the ones I found quickly.

EDIT 2:

Looking at the other siblings, I'd say Apate, the personification of deceit, would be a better fit for Beside than Nemesis.

Or Eris, goddess of stryfe and discord.

Or Dolos, Apate's male counterpart of deceit and treachery.

Or Hybris, goddess of insolence, violence, and outrageous behaviour.

The Moroi, the three weavers associated with the Mothers, were also siblings, being daughters of Nyx.

94
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 05, 2021, 10:57:00 PM »
How would that name be pointless?
The sound basis is easily in the naming. Nemesis draws it's attention because it's a proper name, the Adversary is a role and does not draw it's attention. Given the option between thinking Jim made a one off mistake that makes no metaphysical sense on a character of paramount importance OR the idea it follows given mechanics and we just need to look at why. I'll take the later. That's not theory, that's a... Point of contention that needs addressed before we can so easily dismiss Nemesis as Nemesis the Goddess.
If it were Nemesis the Greek goddess, then Titania could have said "she" rather than "it".

Instead, she refers to it as a power rather than an individual, and an "it". Nemesis sounds more like a spell or computer program than an avatar for righteous retribution.

95
DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: August 05, 2021, 09:13:01 PM »
Ah whampire burning love bullets instead of Marcone bullets.  Gotcha
Yeah. Explicitly to go after Wamps. I would expect the Librarians to be collectors of artifacts as well as knowledge. Or I hope. Just maybe not in a magical warehouse...

96
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 05, 2021, 09:11:33 PM »
eh, that's splitting hairs already split elsewhere. The most primal, well known base name is he who walks beside. But that doesn't mean Nemesis, when so named is male. Same
Creature, but ones a lesser aspect.(thinking of female Loki, or perhaps all three are aspects of Nemesis instead..?) but who is this male we've seen him in? Cat Sith? He doesn't count to me
1 he's a fairy cat, no mortal inside his mantle.(is he male?)
2 that might explain why he was harder to control, like an Ill fitting glove. Nemesis forced it's way in but wasn't a true mirror
3 I figured it was behind? The message, the playful attitude reminding me so much of GS.
If they line up aspects then, without any horsemen connection, then Hwwbh and his loathing is the opposite of love, which makes Nemesis despair I'd think. (Though I'm still partial to the idea nemesis uses all three) *forgot exactly where I was going here..
Madge wasn't a possession really was it? Just sock puppeted the corpse iirc. They do use who is they can get when they can't get who they want. But I think those actions are still ruled by very basic principles of mirroring and contagion. The contagion might be as simple as any sort of rub off of 'outside' energy. Something that can be facilitated by mentally connecting to outsiders, rubbing on the aura of something that has outside energy(thinking this was Elaine with Aurora.. maybe even Harry with Lea) or using dark magic, which is outside energy. They may be a le to mirror as little as 'violated free will with fear' for a vector. But the goal isn't a vector to control, it's a perfect mirror. A true manifestation of full potential.
I'd compare it favorably with Thomas and his mirror, which was probably an intentional clue bat along with a few other Thomas things.( Please note, I had something intelligible thought out, but to my supreme frustration I've been interrupted so many times I can't string it back together, so this is what you get 🤦‍♂️😤🤷‍♂️ )Along these lines, if Thomas is half born into an entity not of himself, and Blamps are replaced by a being not themselves. So, they are looking not for someone they can leech on, but someone who can birth them fully into the world. Chewing on the idea angels and outsiders are similar in nature and starborn are the link to creating, if not a new one per say, then a new identity for one.(like lash's"true form" being a Greek woman..) I got more, gonna try to organize my mind on it.

**Would point out GP has kravos, who feeds on fear and has no free will. Always thought this was an early attempt at birthing fear bringer
All I'm suggesting is that the Walkers have each identified themselves as male, and in BR, their master is referred to as Lord.

I honestly don't think gender plays any role for them at all. Maybe if the series were being narrated by Harriet Dresden, they would have identified themselves as She. Maybe they've translated something complex to Harry in the same way Bob had to boil down quantum theory to throwing a rock. He just hears "He" because he is used to gender identity.

I think Titania calls nemesis "it". So I'd go gender neutral or male, based on the language of the books.

But trying to make a case for female identity due to a theoretical association to Rhamnousia (Greek goddess Nemesis' other name, to avoid confusion) doesn't seem like a sound basis for theory crafting.

After all, if Beside/Nemesis had ever been Greek Rhamnousia/Nemesis, using that name to refer to her/it/him would be pointless.

97
DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: August 05, 2021, 09:01:05 PM »
Is it important that the bullets came from historical figures or they killed historical figures?  Or maybe either/or?

I could certainly seem them scoop up John Wilkes Booth's bullet along those lines.  Assuming they know the value like Marcone does.
It's not the historical aspect, or at least to my suggestion for their use. It's that they're bullets and guns that may have been handled and given between two people that could be in True Love.

Their historical value only comes into play because their love and their crime spree would be public knowledge, and therefore would make it easier to find out about than bullets and guns given to and handled by True Loves that are anonymous and unknown.

98
DF Spoilers / Re: Damn, Maeve really did win
« on: August 05, 2021, 08:43:40 PM »
Don't presume, Grifyn, that the Sidhe can hold the Lady mantles. Everyone we have seen assume the mantles was mortal, or Changeling. The mantle *makes* you Fae; but you may need the free will of a mortal to become the Lady in the first place.

Did Maeve become a Fae and then Winter Lady- or did she go Changeling->Winter Lady?
Yeah, I wasn't sure they'd be compatible, but they may be. In CD Maeve mocks Sarissa for never choosing. That's not the kind of thing one who didn't choose herself should do. Not that people ever restrain themselves to that which they *should* judge.  ::)

As for a Sidhe becoming a queen, I thought the was something a while back that Lea could become queen. I don't remember if it was a WoJ or speculation, though. So my assumption was that with a certain degree of compatibility,a Sidhe could become a queen.

99
DF Spoilers / Re: What will Eb do?
« on: August 05, 2021, 06:05:13 PM »
I could see a young group like the Librarians quietly acquiring the weapons used by Bonnie and Clyde back in the 1930's, and keeping them in a safe to be used against Wamps.

100
DF Spoilers / Re: Damn, Maeve really did win
« on: August 05, 2021, 05:52:58 PM »
That was then. It is probably a power struggle and Nemesis is strong but Lea could at some point gain enough control to run to her queen for help and she also managed to communicate with Harry before Nemesis took over again.

It might work like with the ape demon in blood rites. If the demon is spread thin over 13 instances each instance is weaker. So Nemesis is not at all times equally strong.
Lea won and Cat Sith lost. Had Beside won, Lea would have been lost. But apparently he can whisper sweet nothings but not truly communicate if he isn't at the helm. Imagine someone whispering in your ear saying something you want to be true, that caters to your fears and all those imagined slights.

An ex smoker would understand precisely what I'm saying. That voice is there waiting for you to let down your guard, telling you stories, all the time, for years.
My point is, the argument that Justine is lost forever because Beside took the wheel isn't supported by the text, because it appears that we saw Beside take the wheel with Lea, and she came back from it.

101
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 05, 2021, 05:48:19 PM »
Eh ... I wouldn't take Lily's list as authoritative. She was extensively misled.

There was a WOJ that the first nemfected character appeared 'on stage' in Grave Peril, so I think Sells is in the influenced but not infected category. I'm still uncertain whether he was talking about on the literal stage with Bianca at the party scene, or just on page in a general sense.
See, this is where the terminology is limiting.

If there's a contagion that corrupts, and there's Beside possession, then what he said and what Lily said can both be accurate.

Sells end Denton are infected with the corrupting contagion. Someone in GP is possessed/hosting Beside/Nemesis.

102
DF Books / Re: Book 18?
« on: August 05, 2021, 02:52:41 PM »
The next book is supposed to be TWELVE MONTHS.

It's an unexpected book that Butcher hadn't intended for in his initial series outline, but decided to add to allow for some character and plot development. It's supposedly going to take place during the year immediately following BATTLE GROUND, and will see Harry dealing with the physical, emotional, and psychological trauma he's had over the years. Butcher said that he'd learned a lot going through his own trauma the last few years, and will use some of that. And of course, Harry will also have to deal with all of the revelations and developments in BATTLE GROUND.

103
DF Spoilers / Re: Odin's Raven's
« on: August 05, 2021, 02:17:32 PM »
The Multiverse as a trope has always irritated me.  Just makes a mess of everything and drains the stakes out of any story.  After all, there is always some universe within the multiverse where the protagonist made the "right choice" and their lost love still lives, etc., etc.

Also, I don't like the multiverse because physicists made it up in an attempt to avoid confronting the metaphysical impact of their discoveries.
I too hate a multiverse, in regards to actual reality. In fiction, I hate infinite multiverse. But I can appreciate a well-structured and purposeful splinterverse, especially when there are specific laws it obeys.

But to do that, a writer has to commit to rules, and often they won't because they like the idea of a mirrorverse or a mirrorverse character too much, so they preserve something, which breaks a rule, and then it's all hogwash.

104
DF Spoilers / Re: Damn, Maeve really did win
« on: August 05, 2021, 02:13:01 PM »
We don't know that Beside ever took control.  And Lea is still subject to infection as she states in Changes.I tend to look on this like schizophrenia in that you can control it but you can't cure it.
But she literally says she can't keep it from controlling her.
Quote
   “No time,” she said, voice strained again. “I
cannot long keep it from taking hold of…” She
shuddered and lowered her head. She lifted her
face to me a few seconds later, and the madness
had returned to her eyes. “Wait,” she rasped. “I
have reconsidered. Free me.”
   I traded a look with Thomas, and we both took a
cautious step backward.
   Lea’s face twisted up with rage and she let out a
howl that shook icicles from their positions.
Release me!

I read that as Beside taking over. Maybe there's an argument that infection causes multiple personality disorder, and the newer personality took over. But Maeve was the same, just amplified. Same for Aurora. They were doing what they always wanted to do, just in twisted ways.

Lea and Cat Sith both defy their own nature, and both times it's appears to be due to another personality, which appears to be Beside.

105
DF Spoilers / Re: Notes on Contagion
« on: August 05, 2021, 05:10:23 AM »
I'd personally link this to the summoning and mirroring conversation in PG. Based on previous theory combined with BG Nemesis I'd place a large wager that those things connected to either side of the love, faith, and hope trio are primary vectors for contagion. Molly in particular is a candidate for being infected through the use of fear against free will, and in doing so opened herself up to whatever mouse caught a wiff of outside the station. I can also make the case for Nemesis intentionally targeting young, potentially magical women with a propensity to go insane for one reason or another. Molly, Archive, Maeve, Justine. Me thinks Nemesis takes after her namesake and is inherently female.
*And... Is not black magic/contagion simply the primary conduit?
I don't know about some of that, but Beside identified as male in BG as "He Who Walks Beside". We've heard him talk through three hosts, and two were female, but that seems to be more due to the power structure we've seen in the Dresden Files.

We've seen Behind briefly occupy a woman (Madge), and what was likely Before occupy a man (Vitto), and then Before later in what may have been a male body (Sharkface). So it just seemed to be that they use what they have to work with.

Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9 ... 119