anyone read the hollows series by Kim Harrison one of my favorites, how would we stat R Morgan as a daywalking demon end of series

You have however claimed that killing with magic in self defence is ok in the later books, but not supplied an example. I think have a fairly good memory for the kinds of things happening in the books, but I can't recall a single time that a mortal has used mortal magic to kill another mortal, aside from The Blackstaff which is a specific exception, and it's been considered non-tainting.

Regarding them being mortal laws because Merlin wrote them - that's more along the way of Newtons laws. Merlin codified them into human understanding, and that informs how the Wardens act. The tainting is however more of a natural law.
Basically, mass in movement unaffected by a force will continue that movement whether Newton had written down his laws or not.
Similarly, killing a mortal with magic will taint a mortal killer, whether Merlin wrote down the law or not and whether a Warden comes to chop your head off or not.

your restating the arguement: I am arguing that the people who are "corrupted" by it are not corrupted by it but were already bad people. In book we have no evidence of any type of progression from good to bad to downright insane evil. JB has never provided that. All we have is the wardens and the WC word that this happens.(and as evidence they show the corrupted person to us and then lop off his head aka korean kid)  Since they enofrce the laws that keep them in power of course they and their minions would believe this. Any speciific examples provided have shown people who are evil and nasty and some insane but none of the examples of shown a progress to this directly from magic. This leaves me enough room to A: believe there is more at work then we know (which is my guess as I have stated) and B allows me to allow my games to be run with a looser hand then a vanilla game and still maintain some ties to the series. You may not agree many dont, but the debate is long standing so I am not alone in this belief minority it may be.

Molly never got corrupted, HD never got corrupted, EB never got corrupted. They did what they did and did not become monsters. JB shows them struggling with ethical isues but we all struggle with those. If i am forced t o kill someone at somepoint in my life I will struggle with it for along time, but I am not a monster becasue of that one action nor am i predisposed to become a monster. This applies universally including magic. A monster is a person who chooses to go that route. And it wont matter if he weilds a knife or magic. you disagree cool, but i think this is the way the game should be played and I think its a solid interpretation of the books. Until we are shown a direct link of a good person slowly going bad. We dont have that.

JB may be able to do just this in that book hes coming out with...mirror mirror if thats the case then I wont argue that my interpetation of the books is correct as he will have clearly shown in book that it is not. But I will in my series ignore it.

ah and the reason I allow for this is I understand the humans can be the worst kind of monster, they choose it it. A vampire doesn't the fey dont. So I could argue that some humans dont qualify as human in regards to the first law. Marcone would be one of those. He's plain jane, but his soul is corrupted. He kills without remorse, or orders those in his employ to do the same. His actiivties isn't based on right or wrong but how it benefits or harms him. He is a monster. He can be killed outright with magic and the laws wouldnt apply.

 i disagree and i am leaving it at that. I;ve laid it out their isnt enough evidence eitherway other then what JB said and I disagree with him as well

For me the toughest part of Fate to get people's heads around has been that, unlike most games, Fate isn't about building powerful stats. It's about building a powerful story.

I love that Fate allows the freedom to play with things on a narrative level, and that's how I regard skills. To me, skills are not a reflection of a character's literal ability, but rather of how much of the story they can steer with that ability. This is why I'm perfectly happy with my players using Minor Milestones to swap investigation and combat skills around regularly. Early on, the story is about the characters figuring out what's going on, so they do better at finding clues but take some licks if they get jumped. Meanwhile, towards the end when they've figured out who the bad guy is, the story shifts to be about them kicking ass, and they change their skills around to suit.

I do find that magic is a real spanner in the works when it comes to presenting the group with a challenge. But there are a couple of solutions to this.

1: My favourite is conflict groups. It's an easily-overlooked section, but the rules state that you separate out characters into groups for a conflict, and that "typically" this is simply "players vs villains", but it can easily be more refined than this, with certain PCs fighting certain opponents. This is great for making sure that wizards don't dominate the whole conflict, and allowing all players a chance to shine.

2: Compels. Using magic in a city? Compel for car alarms to go off or street lights to explode, drawing attention or injuring people. A villain bursts a fire hydrant to put the aspect "doused in running water" on a wizard, and uses the free compel to stop the wizard using magic. There are all sorts of fun ways to challenge spellcasters.

That said, arguably the biggest badass in our group is the Pure Mortal. He's gone toe to toe with a Kemmlerian necromancer. And won. Twice.

thats been my most difficult thing too is getting passed the number crunching. I like to power game min max things to perfection its fun, not really needed at all here. Probably why I prefere die 20 or ars magica for my games with magic. Fate points area power all on their own level.

I'm going to have to ask for a source on this because this is directly the opposite of everything that we have been told both in the books and through WoJ. Jim has said that the White Council Laws and the Cosmic Laws don't match up exactly and that there are grey areas, but he's made it very clear that killing with magic does taint you whether you did it for the right reasons or not.

WOP (word of potestas) the guy in my game that has more power then JB, i disagree with him and some others  I presented up above why I do, using his own stories and I provided a more plausable reason why wizards need to follow the laws of magic rather then "you will become monsters" we dont have evidence of this in book only bad people we are told went ape shit becasue they over did the breaking of the rules. In other words we see bad people being executed on the say so of the council but none of the building process that is supossed to have happen. I think killing in self defense or to protect others is a moral act regardless of what you use to do it. Your millage may vary

JB's quote is missing.

that quote kind goes against what he wrote when thorn got all pissy at him for using it. like it was beneath him. Unless he meant angel types can use both depending on they way they made their choice. fallen or not. that it is for angel types only but the one you get is dependent on the way you went.  i dont think the fallen can use it anymore because of their choice. This kind if implies that soul fire is not sponsered by angels but he who created them. which means Harry's sponser is the almighty

I dislike the very idea of Soulfire as having an external sponsor, as presented in YS.
To me, Soulfire is the absolute epitome of 'Self-Sponsored' magic.
The fuel for Soulfire is the practitioner's own soul.

'Jake's' involvement in Harry's access to Soulfire was a one-time event.  None of their further interactions actually facilitated his continued use of the power.  This is not the relationship between Sponsor and Sponsored Practitioner.

someone gave harry access to it. I think as long as Harry uses it as a good person would(with little abuse) he can keep it, should he turn dark or reaquire a coin he would lose it. All the fallen lost their access to it, it was replaced with hellfire. harry would be no different. I dont think his actions are controlled by Jake, but jake has taken a very very keen interest in his life. And soul fire has meant the idfference in a lot of the stuff that has kept harry alive. It wouldnt be a tool i would want to lose.

Depends on...
First, there has to be a wizard in the group... Second, the technomancer would have different possibilities to use his power. The more obvious, the more are the chances that the characters will find out and start to detroy all his little toys. But things like using public surveillance cameras for his purpose, shutting down all automatic doors in a mall and things like that aren't that much obvious and can easily explained by a hacker or some other kind of competent tech. And the characters will have to think a long way before starting to suspect something like a technomancer...

But anyway, it is only an idea and a crude one...

i dont think its a bad idea at all as long as you dont mix it with mortal magic for a few more decades or centuries. Theere are gods dedicated building Hephistus (sp) comes to mind, he could be the sponser, all sorts of ritual and evaothum to control stuff, you could have the ultimate spymaster. Nick could only read some shadows, s=you would have eery camera in the city. Or if you really need to go the mortal route redirect it into items but your items look like normal stuff.