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Messages - Mira

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76
DF Spoilers / Re: Turncoat
« on: May 19, 2025, 12:34:11 PM »
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I agree, if they came into contact with the ink they were impacted to some degree. That degree depends on how much contact they had with the ink (ie how often they were at headquarters and signing paper work) and how susceptible they were to the inks influence (age and mental defenses).

Senior Council, they are intimately involved with governing the White Council, so yeah, lots of contact with Peabody's ink.. And don't discount nudges, especially when the person who is being affected has no clue that he or she is being nudged in one direction or another... Timing in attacks during wartime is one example, a couple of hours one way or the other could be the difference between success and disaster...  Or kind of like driving a car after drinking, you don't have to be drunk to a danger on the road. You are not drunk, not even remotely, but your reaction time is slowed, normally wouldn't affect your driving, but if something happens and you are even a split second too slow to react... 

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When Listens-to Winds had that reaction, he had just found out during the trial that Peabody had been influencing the wizards through his ink. That was an honest reaction of shock at the news. No investigation had been made into what exactly the ink was and what it could do yet. At that point, his medical and scientific knowledge was useless because he just found out about it and had not examined the ink for himself. It wasn't until after Peabody had been killed, the mistfiend contained, and the injured treated that the Merlin and Injun Joe examined the ink and the influenced wizards fully to see what the effect was. Harry detailed this on page 518 while he was in the infirmary recovering before he talked to the Gatekeeper (the paragraph preceding the second book quote above). For all Listens to Winds knew at the time of the reveal, the effect on the Senior Council could have been quite serious. However, it was after his and Merlin's investigation that Harry made the influence in subtle ways reference to the Senior Council and Eb shared the third quote about the Senior Council only being nudged not bent.
or... 
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Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386  bolding and italics mine...
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    "Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago.  A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.  It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."

    Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding.  He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.


Was it useless?  He had just listened to Eb's testimony as to what was in the ink.. Listen's-to-Wind  has enough knowledge of chemistry to understand perfectly well what Eb was saying they found.. He didn't need to do his own analysis.

Yes, while the body change made Luccio more susceptible, it still was the ink, wasn't it?  That's my point. 

Another point, and the real damage of Peabody's subtle nudges, " A new age of White Council paranoia had begun. "

What happened after the battle for Chicago is a perfect example of that.

77
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 19, 2025, 12:09:50 PM »
From Mab perspective The WK doesn't need an income
Not to get political but....
How much money do politicians get paid any politician world wide not just your country, and how much money do they have. Even the countries with low corruption. Any politician from any political party gains wealth.
Not giving the WK wealth might be a feature not a bug. The WK has to shaped his mind, and bargaining skills .

The question then becomes, can and does Harry renegotiate his contract?  He has cause because the first time around wasn't really a renegotiation, it was under duress and he was sure he was going to be killed after little Maggie was saved.  I think the bigger question is would Mab renegotiate?  Or does Harry want to because he doesn't want to owe her anymore than he already does.

78
DF Spoilers / Re: Turncoat
« on: May 18, 2025, 12:03:21 PM »
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Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch.

Not because of the body switch, but because of the ink.

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Peabody and his ink only managed to screw up Luccio because of the body switch. In Turncoat it states that every wizard under the age of 50 was more susceptible to Peabody's manipulation and had the sleep command programmed in. Several of the younger wardens also had the lone gunman reprogramming as well. He was only able to impact the Senior Council in subtle ways. Ebenezer said that the ink only let Peabody nudge them, but that they were too "crusty" to bend. Yes, Peabody could manipulate the older wizards with his ink, but the only people he could have forced to the island was a younger wizard. Otherwise, it would have had to have been a co-conspirator.

We don't know that, nor if a Senior Member was on the island with Peabody influenced by the ink could you really call him or her a co-conspirator.. The key word here is, under the influence, not fully responsible..  Maybe not zombie or robotic mind control, but enough influence to severely affect judgement.. Also like all of us, wizards, even senior wizards have different levels of tolerance to chemical influences.   

Official testimony from Eb at the trial, page 386  bolding and italics mine...
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"Working on the evidence Dresden found." Ebenezar said, "Warden Ramiez and I searched Peabody's chambers thoroughly not twenty minutes ago.  A test of inks he used to attain the signatures of the Senior Council for various authorizations revealed the presence of a number of chemical and alchemical substances that are known to have been used to assist psychic manipulation of their subjects.  It is my belief that Peabody has been drugging the ink for the purpose of attempting greater mental influence over the decisions of the members of the Senior Council, and that it is entirely possible that he has compromised the free will of younger members of the Council outright."

Listens-to-Wind's mouth opened in sudden surprise and understanding.  He looked at his ink-stained fingertips, and then up at Peabody.

Now in the end the Senior Council may not admit to the extent that they were compromised, but from Listens-to-Wind's honest reaction, the effect on the Senior Council was potentially quite serious.. Remember he would know as both a medical doctor and a scientist the  effect of those drugs on the mind, even the minds of Senior Council members.

No, the whole White Council, if they came in contact with the ink, was affected to some degree. ages 397- 398 Turn Coat,  what Harry thinks the effects on the whole, of Peabody's ink, from Lara's independent investigations;
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He might have wound up with his brains spattered all over a desolate little hell hole in the Nevernever, but Peabody had influenced one hell of a lot of damage before he was through. A new age of White Council paranoia had begun.

It was all tougher for the members of the Senior Council, in my opinion, all of whom had almost certainly been influenced in subtle ways. They had to go back over their decisions for the past several years, and wonder if they had been pushed into making a choice, if it had been their own action, or if the ambiguity of any given decision had been natural to the environment.  The touch had been so light that it hadn't left any lasting tracks.  For anyone with half a conscience, it would be a living nightmare, especially given the fact that they had been leading the Council in time of war.

I tried to imagine second-guessing myself on everything I'd done for the past eight years.  I wouldn't be one of those guys for all the world.

79
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 18, 2025, 11:47:50 AM »
Molly the friend may want to supplement his income, but Molly the Winter Lady would be bound by Mab's will in the matter. If Mab doesn't think Harry needs more resources than he is not getting more resources without bartering for them like he did with Molly in Peace Talks.

However it does demonstrate that Molly can bargain on her own.  She never consulted with Mab before she made that ring for Harry in Peace Talks.. That bargain made Harry obligated to Molly, not Mab for whatever favor Molly requires, so very possible that Harry could bargain with Molly for a pay raise.  I don't think that is the issue, I don't think Harry wants to be forced to pay back favors anymore than he has to.  Remember it was frightened 16 year old Harry that made a bargain with Lea that got him in this jam in the first place leading to him becoming Winter Knight years later, something he'd rather not be.

80
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I have been thinking long and hard about this question. I have a hard time removing all moral culpability from someone regardless of what they went through. Actions need to be interpreted in light of circumstances, but circumstances don't justify all actions or inactions. What Monica went though is horrible and she was put in an awful position, but, in my opinion, circumstances do not wipe the slate clean and remove all culpability.

No?  Do you blame someone suffering from mental illness?  In fact because of the abuse she had suffered all of her life, Monica could not be rational in these matters.
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By this logic any moral culpability for any action committed in the heat of the moment or out of passion could be excused because the person was not thinking rationally in that moment.
Apples to oranges, Monica isn't a rational person acting out in the heat of the moment nor out of passion.  She was and is a victim, suffering from a long list of emotional and mental issues stemming from her life time as a victim of abuse.

Just Googled it.
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What are the long-term effects of childhood trauma and abuse?
Problems now concretely linked to child abuse and neglect include behavioral and achievement problems in school; heart, lung and liver disease; obesity and diabetes; depression, anxiety disorders, and increased suicide attempts; increased criminal behaviors, illicit drug use and alcohol abuse; increased risky sexual ...

You are blaming the victim here, Monica is a victim here every bit as much as Victor's other victims.

81
DF Spoilers / Re: Turncoat
« on: May 15, 2025, 11:51:01 AM »
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It comes back to why were there two (presumably wizards) people present? If it is just added muscle than it could be someone Peabody controlled with his ink. For disposable muscle it would have to be a young wizard. Peabody couldn't bring someone like Cristos there against his will. If the second person is on the Executive Council then they would have to be there of their own free will and thus on the Black Council and either a superior to Peabody or a peer to Peabody.

Luccio was the captain of the Wardens at that time.  Granted the body switch screwed her up somewhat, hormones were firing her sex drive because she was in a younger body, and she no longer could make the special Warden swords, but basically to be captain of the Wardens of the White Council her wizard mojo is pretty strong.. It appeared to remain strong, otherwise it would have been noticed, yet Peabody and his ink managed to screw her up controlling her to the point of committing murder.  Or did Peabody screw everyone else up so badly with his ink that they just didn't notice that their Warden captain wasn't quite right anymore? What I am trying to say is apparently they didn't notice, so it isn't inconceivable that Peabody could in fact, manipulate someone like Christos with his ink.. Not against Christos's will,  because he had no clue he was being manipulated by the ink, nobody did.  Remember  when Rashid visited Harry in the infirmary afterwards?  Rashid looked down at his own hands wondering how much he had been influenced by Peabody's ink.  Eb's reaction as well,  said the same thing.. Now, we can agree that Peabody wasn't the brains behind the plot, he was a mere cat's paw.  Somewhere along the line he was corrupted and as an insider to the White Council did a huge amount of damage that would have gone on a lot longer if Harry had attended more Council meetings and signed paperwork.  So who was behind it?  Nemesis?  And why would the second person or creature on the island with Peabody have to be from the White Council?  Peabody used a Way to get to the island, a pretty nasty one at that.  We know that Cat Sith got infested with Nemesis, we also know that Lea and Maeve got infested by Nemesis, so not impossible that maybe it was someone else infested from one of the Courts that was with Peabody on the island.  Oh and I can think of another who we know from White Night can go in and out from the Nevernever, Cowl...  We still don't know his agenda, and yeah he'd be strong enough to manipulate Peabody.

82
DF Spoilers / Re: Turncoat
« on: May 14, 2025, 10:51:32 AM »


  At this point it could be any number of wizards on the Council or even someone as shocking as Carlos.  My point it isn't about ignorance or evil, everyone who had dealings with Peabody, and that's just about everyone, had contact with his ink.

83
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 11, 2025, 12:18:36 PM »
[quote author=Mira link=topic=55175.msg2363626#msg2363626 date=1746876863
Or perhaps doesn't understand?  Mab maybe too removed from the human perspective to understand.  Remember there are a lot of things the Fae don't understand about how humans think.


Mab may be removed from the human perspective, but she will grab onto any weapon she can in order to achieve her goals. Money is one of those resources that she can use to further her own ends in the mortal world. There is a reason Molly's account has so many zeros in it. Mab sees that value in money, she just doesn't amass it to be rich for rich's sake. She absolutely could be operating under the principle that she provides the knight the basic tools and it is up to him to gather what he needs.

At the same time she must feel that Harry isn't subject to bribes.. Also one wonders if her Knight would be as effective as she'd like if he has to scrounge for money to keep his home and family together?  Again, you'd think that Molly would supplement his income, unless there is a reason why Knights do not get a salary for what they do.

84
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 10, 2025, 05:04:40 PM »
Of course it's worse, it's Mab. The process is sharply pointed and makes your blood run cold.

Mab is bad true, but a bureaucracy of wizards might be worse..  ;)

85
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 10, 2025, 11:34:23 AM »
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And yet, bargain he did.
He just didn't care enough about cashflow to include it into the bargain.

Really?  I am not saying that you are wrong here, no he didn't care.. However you make it sound like it wasn't important to him. It is important to him, but at that moment in time, it was WAY down on his list of priorities.  His back was broken, his little girl about to be sacrificed, he and his grandfather about to be killed in a generational spell, so yeah, he didn't care, why?  Because if he didn't survive a 401 K from Mab wasn't going to do him much good!

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"Molly" could maybe do so.
The "Winter Lady" must do all such transactions as bargains, as you yourself pointed out:

The interesting point is why hasn't she?  I got the sense from Peace Talks that Molly doesn't like bargains, especially in the case of Harry.  It maybe because she feels the only reason she is alive is because of him, or because she loves him, but I don't think she wants him to be indebted to her anymore than absolutely necessary.   Or she has observed how Mab uses it to wield power over others and she doesn't agree with it.

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I'm pretty sure Mab feels that her WK already has all the resources he needs, to do the job.  And if Dresden is too stupid or weak-willed or squeamish to leverage the resources she's already given him, it's not Mab's job to make his life any easier.

Or perhaps doesn't understand?  Mab maybe too removed from the human perspective to understand.  Remember there are a lot of things the Fae don't understand about how humans think. 

86
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 09, 2025, 01:04:40 PM »
You do not want to see the reimbursement forms required by the Winter Court accounting department.

 Could it be worse than the White Council? I seem to remember Rashid telling Harry he has no idea what a favor Rachid did for him vouching that he was still alive and filling out all those forms,to prove it.. ::)

87
DF Spoilers / Re: Choices
« on: May 08, 2025, 12:14:23 PM »
:o

No, actually that was the White Queen.

(I just re-read the passage to confirm; I can quote the full context, or link you an online copy, if desired)

You are right, I was thinking of the movie where it is Alice who says it, but the passage is confusing in the book..

88
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 08, 2025, 12:08:34 PM »
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Burger King & IHOP (and Pizza 'Spress) will be his "splurge" foods, unless he solves some magical problem for a high-end chef who gives him "always eat here free" privileges as a reward.
 

I agree with the exception of Pizza'Spress, Harry's fairy army flies on it's stomach, quality pizza in this case isn't an indulgence, he has to keep his troops well fed! 

Molly didn't bargain for her pay check or any support she gets from the Winter Court, that came with the mantel that she had no say in getting.  It's possible that Harry may have been able to bargain for a good pay check, but at the time he was in no position to bargain at all.  Unless the Lady cannot bargain on her own, I don't see why Molly with her seemingly unlimited resources cannot set up her former master and friend so he can be financially solvent, not rich maybe but able to support those he has to support.
There is evidence that she can bargain since Harry did ask and got a favor from her in Peace Talks when she made that ring for him so he could create a double of himself to fool Eb.
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I think the Harry in Proven Guilty was hitting a good spot. Still was tight with financial issues, but was able to do some cool stuff on the side like Little Chicago. He did not have unlimited resources that he could throw at any problem, but he had enough that he could choose something cool to devote some resources to.

Yes, that is the happy medium I am talking about, Harry isn't rich, he cannot throw money at things and make them go away.  But he is treading water and getting along like a lot of us do, money isn't his focus, he has more important things to attend to. And if Mab is as smart as she claims to be she will understand that a solvent Winter Knight is a more effective Winter Knight and she will increase his pay check if he gets one from her.

89
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 07, 2025, 02:47:19 PM »
I think it just makes for a better story that Harry always seems to be struggling financially.
It means he has to be more creative in problem solving and recruiting allies etc.

Considering he now lives in a top of the line, all the bells and whistles, castle courtesy of Marcone.
If he also had practically unlimited funds he would be a far less sympathetic or relatable character.
Whatever the problem, friends in trouble, need some hired help, run a castle, research...Just throw money at it.
It would become boring quickly.

  I think Harry being broke all of the time can also get old after a bit.  I think a happy medium can be struck, between Harry having so much money he can just throw it at any problem, and Harry having no money at all.  I don't think no matter how much he has I don't think we'd see Harry just throw money at them. We all know many of the problems Harry faces money isn't going to help at all anyway.  I would like to see him have enough money for housekeeping, (including little Maggie expenses), taxes, and keeping Toot and Za'Gard in pizza..  He really doesn't need more than that.

90
DF Spoilers / Re: Questions for Mab
« on: May 06, 2025, 12:09:07 PM »
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I don't think there's any "rule against" salary, no.
If Harry had included a cash stipend in his negotiation, I don't think Mab would have blinked or balked.

But there is now a rule against Harry being paid:  he didn't bargain for it... and Mab fulfills her bargains with surgical precision, and zero charity.

No, Harry didn't bargain for himself, he offered himself so his daughter would live.  Then when he woke up at the end of Ghost Story he made it clear to Mab that while he'd do her bidding as far as he could but that he was and will remain his own man. Mab wants that because that gives her a good effective Knight.  That was the bargain, being well off or secure financially was furthest from his mind at that point because he had never been well off financially or secure..  Now with children to think about and others his outlook is different.

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Molly has no such inhibitions.  She owns a luxurious condo in an ultra-secure enclave, paid for with magical service.

She never had any inhibitions of that type that's what got her into trouble in the first place.  Molly was always rebellious, long before she discovered her talent.. Remember her going up to the tree house and removing make up and putting her school uniform back on when she came home from school?  No, she is more like Charity was than Michael is.

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