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Messages - Ms Duck

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76
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 14, 2013, 03:21:38 AM »
For what its worth, I understand the theory, Im just not buying it :)

the idea that objects can create themselves bothers me, the free will bothers, the power requirements bothers me..

heck, zombies bother me.

time zombies.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/AllYouZombies

there, now you can all share my pain.

77
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 09:55:52 PM »
Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 13, 2013, 09:43:04 PM
Why do they have to have choice in the then now ? Is not choice in the now noew enough ?

because in a non deterministic reality, there is no 'past' or ;future' there is only the now, and 'possibilities'. When an object travels to Point B, they change that reality, even if only by their presence. At which point all the dice need to be rolled all over again.

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I took the recent WoJ as indicating that there's a branching tree of realities arising from every point of exercise of free will anyway.

If that was intended as metahumour at the "this statement floats in a void with no causal connection to anything preceding" level, I salute your subtletly. If not, I'll have to ask you to unpack your reasoning a bit more.

mm ill try to unpack. I don't believe in a non deterministic universe actual time travel is possible; for example when your traveler gets into his machine at point 2013, and travels to 1961, he creates first two alternates futures:

one in which he did travel, and one in which he did not

and then two more alternate pasts...it goes exponential from there

maybe its all my marvel comics leaking thru, but at least here, its impossible to travel to your actual past or your future (because of paradox) you can only travel to your alternate past and or alternate future.

:D

78
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 09:22:34 PM »
Quote from: Cenphx on February 13, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Right, merlin might live long enough to cast the spell 5 or 6 times, but isnt the problem tha Merlin did it 5 times *simulatenously*? So he couldnt have done it at 5 different points in his timeline.  (im not even gonna try to touch the free will in a time travel world issue-but im reading along)

if he did that he has skills at time travel are above anything Mab has done in the books. were getting back into the 'TTH is a god' theory land there.

79
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 13, 2013, 08:43:53 PM »
I just want to address this point:

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... That's not actually how a good chess player works. There are no random moves. There are, however, sacrifices that must be made in order to gain a better position to stop the enemy's plans.

because its a bit.. well, wrong :)

I am, or was, a very good chess player in my college days. Went to the state championship more then once.

Chess is full of what im talking about; the decoy, the cross check, the discovery.. the best games in the world come from making moves to distract the enemy in one direction then  reveal a new hidden threat elsewhere.

beyond that, what Mab does is a variation of speed chess in which a master player plays dozens of games at once against all comers;  to make it real fun, half of them are played blind. its round robin speed Xanatos gambit chess. And she's very good at it.

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There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)




80
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 08:26:32 PM »
Quote from: the neurovore of Zur-En-Aargh on February 13, 2013, 07:28:15 PM
I'm still not seeing why it resets the clock except for the you who has travelled into the past and anyone you directly affect.  That people can make free choices in their present doesn't mean that once that choice has been made it is subsequently fluid, at least by my reading of Odin's comment about temporal inertia.  (Which in a universe with time-travel implies that the broad strokes of the future are not very mutable, save by focused and significant choice, but that's pretty much what Uriel's been implying when talking about most people not exercising free will very often.)

because it removes the choice of the people in the then now, for lack of a better term. when you get down to it, with enough time travel free will would become asymptotic to zero.

the fact that in the DF zillions of alternate universes exist implies to me that time is not static or deterministic, but fluid. I think that by going back, you create entire logic trees of alternate realities..

If any TTH did change LC, its not ours. its the one from an alternate future that may have been.

Griff- merlin is a whole different kettle of fish. I'm not even convinced that it involved time travel at all, frankly. If you have a near immortal  who calculates he has to cast a spell in six different times to make it work, there's no reason he cant just set his calendar and do it.

81
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 13, 2013, 06:26:59 PM »
I think well have to disagree about DB, I read that differently, as I don't think Lea knew all the details about the word.

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Out of curiosity, where exactly is the squishyness in "It was not my intention for her to replace Maeve" and "I meant Sarissa to take Maeve's place" if she had future knowledge of what was about to happen?

'my intention' and 'I meant' can mean many different things.

and Just to be clear, the future in the DF is not absolute. its a potential state; what Mab sees are the things that may happen, not what will. Every time she makes a change, it distorts her vision a bit.

now realize that Nemesis has very similar powers, and the two of them are out to get each other, and things Like PG become clear. Its not one chess game, but hundreds, played at the same time, and the only way to win is to make a move the other side either misses or does not understand.

IMO, all of PG, SmF, and TC was Mab moving a pair of pawns ( Molly and Harry) into place to promote them later. And in order to get away with it, she did 20 other random moves all over the place :)

people come up with all these theories about 'why mab sent the hobbes' or 'why the fetches killed this person or that' when the easiest answer is ' because they are a distraction'

Do you think Jim will let us make ' Team Mab' t shirts?




82
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
all these were solved in either CD or GS:

a) Harry's threshold

-- gets outright lampshaded by cat sith
b) Not be noticed/or mentioned later by Bob the Skull
-- also lampshaded in cold days. Mab always knew bob was there; Harry notes this in CD
c) Not be noticed/mentioned by Thomas
-- she can veil. walk thru walls. turn into air. not seeing the problem ..
-- also lampshaded in GS and CD. Mab went into his apartments, multiple times, as part of doing Lea's Job. neither Harry no Thomas ever noticed
-- note her remaking his apartment in perfect detail in CD
-- also the Calvin and Hobbes book
d) knowledge and ability to fix LC
-- It's Mab?? That's like saying Godzilla doesn't have the knowledge and ability to step on a Yugo.  ;)


@Neuro- My point is that in a universe where free will does exist, every time you travel back in time it resets the clock- and now people have the options to make all new decisions. In a non deterministic universe, all new random events can occur.

I don't think a stable time loop is possible in the Dresden verse. which is ironic, as I suggested it years before anyone else here did, that I know of. But given the things Odin and Uriel have said, I now think I was very very wrong.

 

83
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 13, 2013, 03:06:37 PM »
point one: Dead Beat

after he refuses to take the WK job, Mab still helps him anyway. PG 180. Hard back

"I must do what I might to preserve your life. Know this, Mortal: should Kemmler's heirs acquire the knowledge bound within the word.."

and she does one of her prophecy moments the next page away :

"one day you shall kneel at my feet."

these are kind of important, because Mab cannot lie. If she uses future tense like that, it means its something she has foreseen. and there a bunch of them.

(I have a standing WAG that after the series is over, a reader will be able to go thru the books and check off everything Mab said.. its very Jim, somehow.)

in CD, Harry doesn't question if Mab can see the future, but how far

"could Mab see that far ahead? or was this simply a case of superior preparedness in action? "

as to the things Mab said in CD at the end, she deliberately used squishy language. She has gotten very good at letting Harry assume what he wants to hear. ;)

the one thing (and maybe its just egotism) that make me think Mab is the more likely is the logic chain. Using it, back in 2006, I predicted the end of Cold Days with some accuracy. I also predicted that Harry would die, that Mab would brign him back, that it would involve demon reach..

Now I got the details wrong. Time Travel wasn't directly involved, but indirectly thru Mab's precognition; and the attacking force was the outsiders, not the black court.

but it was close enough that even though I had left the board, people started emailing me to say things like 'OMG DUCK !!'

so it must have been somewhat on the ball... lol.

or just very very very lucky.





84
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 02:29:30 PM »
Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 13, 2013, 02:20:51 PM
I guess either people aren't reading the thread to see that we've already discussed the paradox/time loop issue, or they're not understanding that using the Merlin Emrys Temporal Bridge Using a Pocket Dimension (METBUPD) means that there wouldn't have been a first time that Harry didn't fix it.

Am I really the only one that's seeing that possibility?  I know Duck doesn't like it because of the power requirements.  I don't want to rehash those points.  I'm just befuddled by people not getting what I'm saying.  This is when I need someone to translate what's in my head to the thread.  Someone summon aShorty.

I understand your logic, but its circular. Harry doesn't have to fix it because harry fixed it but doesn't have to fix it because he fixed it...

A- it violates free will
B- circular reasoning is inherently problematic
C- stable time loops can only exist in a deterministic universe

let's say I find a time machine. its just there. I walk in, learn how to use it, and  go back in time to the day before, leaving it there for me to find

does that mean the time machine was created by the time loop, and thus has no beginning and no end? Nobody made it, this just appeared?

problems-

conservation: of it was possible to do this, there would be no conservation of energy, which according to mother winter does exist

free will: what if the next me in the cycle decides to keep it and do something else?

random chance: what if the machine break mid loop?

temporal echo's: in the df, messing with time creates artifacts.  Just how screwed up did I just make the universe?




85
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 13, 2013, 05:22:42 AM »
I don't believe stable time loops are even possible in the df; from everything that's ever been said, the future at any point is only possible; not definite.

having a time loop would thus violate the magical rule of free will and the law of conservation of magic.

(when future harry goes back to fix LC, he voids any decisions any person could make until the point he leaves.. for example, Molly no longer had the choice of going to the council or not at the end of PG. its is now fated she will... Uriel will be ticked )

86
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 13, 2013, 05:13:39 AM »
Quote from: wizard nelson on February 13, 2013, 05:07:20 AM
not to retcon on things but it seems to me altering time requires the mortal touch of free will. just as in DB changing harry's fate was an act of free will in the face of predestination. so a god to facilitate the working and a mortal to carry out the actions. dude look at it this way. time manipulation is odin/kringles forte and harry owes him a favor. this sets up the presumed time travel jim says will probably happen. IF on the other hand the time thing refers to harry doing kringles job one snowy christmas eve and stretching time to visit every kid in the world, i'd be cool with that too  ;)

ever read Hogfather ? youd like it.

87
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 12, 2013, 11:11:11 PM »
Quote from: Silkki on February 12, 2013, 11:09:12 PM
I think most obvious thing to suggest that it's possible to travel trough time even as a mortal is in the laws of magic. If it's impossible unless you are a god, and a strong one at that, the law is meaningless. Something I don't think it is.

Didn't read trough the whole thread so sorry if this was addressed earlier, but the CD energy response was Demonreach chargin in order to use Banefire. It was simply doing it ahead of time cause it was able to sense the incoming attack that would occur in the future.

the law prohibits swimming thru time, which includes travel to alternate nows, seeing the future, and trying to visit the future to alter the present as well as going back wards

the laws tend to be fairly specific , for example it does not say ' do not kill' it says ' do not kill mortals with magic'

88
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 12, 2013, 11:07:12 PM »
Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 11:02:30 PM
- I don't see PG leading to Harry becoming Warden of DR.  That's more along the lines of your TC theory.
 - I don't know what trap Mab laid for her enemies in PG.  They came after Lea, and caused havok at AT, but she still doesn't seem sure which Fallen was involved, so I'm not sure how much intel she got from it.
 - She didn't kill any agents on earth in PG.  Unless you're talking about any that fell in the attack at AT.  But we don't know if the bad guys took any casualties.  The only remains spotted were those of Winter creatures.
 - It lays the foundation for a connection between Molly and Winter.  But Molly was apparently always a backup backup.  That seems like a lot of effort for a second pinch hitter.  If Mab knew of Maeve's infection in PG, then I can see her deciding a new backup may be needed.  But it doesn't explain why she didn't do to Maeve what she did to Lea.

the PG theory and the TC theory, im my opinion, are all one thing. Its A+ B +C= type stuff, anditkinda paid outinCDlikemadmuttermutter

the trap is the one she sprang in CD, end of.

where she took a trap they laid for her and inverted it to pin her enemies between a rock (DR) and a hard place ( Odin and the Erlking)

 ;D

89
DF Reference Collection / Re: Proof that Time Travel Harry did not fix Little Chicago?? (CD Spoilers)
« on: February 12, 2013, 10:57:50 PM »
Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 09:47:11 PM
My assumption is that Merlin Emrys is/was a mortal wizard.  Maybe he is/was ancient, and from Atlantis for all we know.  One of the few fictions I read about Merlin was the Lawhead series, where Taliesin was his father, who was born on Atlantis.  I don't know where he got that idea from.

But the issue remains that he managed to get all 5 times to occur at once.  That's still some sort of time manipulation, which seems beyond your typical mortal practitioner.

As for Merlin being ancient in the Dresdenverse, I think his involvement in the Wouncil eliminates him being anything other than a mortal, right?  So unless he's been hanging out in his own crystal cave on DR in a padded crystalline cell, it makes it hard for him to escape aging.

merlin in mythology is a changeling, tho whether half demon or half sidhe varies. he's also curse to live backwards in time in several version.s

90
DF Reference Collection / Re: The Gatekeeper fixed LC and other PG musings [spoilers up to CD]
« on: February 12, 2013, 10:56:19 PM »
Quote from: Griffyn612 on February 12, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
It all just seems so convoluted for the result.  Lea bargains with the Reds to not interfere in their war; Lea gets Infected; Mab has to cure Lea, but has to fulfill Lea's promises while she's incapacitated, so she can't act out against the Reds; so she has Molly learn dark magic, to screw with her friend's minds, so the GK detects dark magic, and out of courtesy tells Harry, so Harry has to go looking for the dark magic, so that Maeve can manipulate him into thinking its a heavy duty practitioner summoning phages, so he has to send it back on them, only to have it be Fetches, who can take Molly to Arctis Tor because Harry sent them to her, so Harry will follow them to AT to retrieve her, so that Lily can give him summer fire to fire into the wellspring, to then cause a natural reaction among winter Fae to draw everyone back to home base, allowing Maeve to slow time, keeping Winter near Arctic Tor long enough to allow Summer to then move against the Reds.

that's not the result. the result is :

Harry becomes warden of DR
Mab lays a trap for her enemies
kills many of their agents lose on earth
makes Molly new winter lady

you are mistaking the first two moves for the endgame. When Mab plays chess, she plays fricken chess.  ;D

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