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Messages - Kindler

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76
I think what turned Justin was learning the truth about the Outer Gates, and realizing What Was Coming, which is why he was looking to mold a pair of Starborn (Starborns? Starsborn?). The only thing we know for sure about Starborn is that they lack some of the weaknesses mortal wizards have against Outsiders.

Based on that, I see three reasons Justin would want that. Either:
A) He wanted to fight them and prevent the Outsider Apocalypse that the series appears to be building toward. This is active opposition to the Outsider Plot.
B) He wanted to suborn the Outsiders and, in some fashion, use their power for himself. I don't know if he thought that Starborn might be able to mentally dominate Outsiders, for example, but I'm sure the idea of enslaving an army of them would have appealed to him if he thought it could be done. Maybe the Starborn would instead have been responsible for a Darkhallow-ish ritual that can only be performed if you can get magic to stick to Outsiders in the first place, and Justin would've legit become an Outsider-level god. Lots of different possibilities with this one that I can see.
C) He wanted Harry and Elaine to be Humanity's Backup Plan. If the walls of Reality crumbled and humanity was about to die off after the Outsiders "won," the two of them would be the seed from which the species could persist. This is the least likely, because I have no clue how Justin would have thought he could have possibly kept the two of them safe if the universe/multiverse was destroyed by Outsiders.

Anywho, I dunno if Justin was planning to fight, steal, or build an Ark. I personally believe he was planning to Steal, and was just dumb about it.

I do go back and forth between Steal and Fight, though. Because if he was really looking to bend Harry and Elaine to his will, he screwed up MASSIVELY, and I can't see Justin being as dumb about it as he was. He basically already had Harry and Elaine on Team Justin. I don't know about Elaine, but I know that Justin was Harry's first paternal figure since Malcolm died. Harry already would have probably done quite a few questionable deeds if Justin had simply asked him. If he had taken just a little more time—a year, maybe, or even six months—he could have manipulated both of them into becoming the thugs everyone claims he wanted.

I've said this before on this forum (well, technically the last one—thanks again, Griffyn), but it's really not that hard to manipulate teenagers. Getting them to do dirty work is easy enough with standard cult-like indoctrination. There's no magic required there; it's all about breaking them down and building them up to your liking. Sadly, it happens all the time in reality—I've known people whom I've tried to help get out of situations like that (sadly unsuccessfully). It is not difficult to accomplish; it just takes time and a complete lack of morality. I've seen young people turn from bright and skeptical to dead-eyed and unshakably credulous over the course of a single year.

I therefore believe that either A) Justin no longer had the luxury of time to accomplish this, and had to rush things for one reason or another (which is compatible with all of the above possible motivations), or B) Justin never intended to turn them into simple thugs in the first place, and what Harry and Elaine went through was either meant for some other purpose, or Justin was no longer in charge. That's really only compatible with the first possible motivation (raising two Starborn to fight the Outsiders), in my opinion. If this is the case, then I think it's possible that the OP is both right and incorrect; Harry did know Justin DuMorne, but the one Harry killed was not the same Justin DuMorne he knew and lived with. I think it is possible that Kemmler OR Nemesis OR Both OR Something Else got to Justin, and possessed/reshaped him such that he was no longer calling the shots.

I'm not saying it's super likely to be true, but I do think it's possible. It would certainly explain my personal hangup about Justin's sudden Kung Fu grip on the Idiot Ball.

77
I have a feeling she WILL return, but just in Mirror, Mirror. Unless Harry went ahead and nuked her building from orbit or something.

78
DF Spoilers / Re: Harry's use of Black Magic
« on: January 29, 2020, 06:20:24 PM »
    Just the thought, could now being Winter Knight protect him somewhat?  Just as the Black Staff protects Eb?  It is Mother Winter" stick after all.
I think the real question is "If it does start messing with his head, will it be qualitatively different from the way the Winter Knight's Mantle does?" I mean, would Harry even notice if he started getting impulses based on mental domination/death/destruction/sexual assault from using Black Magic? Or would he just be like, "Damn Winter, gettin' in my head again!"

79
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 28, 2020, 09:00:31 PM »
Lovecraft isn't horror, it's Cosmic Horror. It targets a different fear response: inevitability and madness rather than sheer terror. Also helplessness; there's virtually nothing the protagonists can do most of the time. How are you supposed to stop Azathoth? You're not. The good news is that Azathoth doesn't notice you anyway, because he's taking a nap. If he wakes up, the universe ends. Better hope he stays asleep.

It's kinda like knowing about gamma ray bursts. Life on Earth could randomly come to an end one day if a star halfway across the Milky Way goes supernova. There is literally nothing anyone here can do to prevent that (though there's also nothing anyone here can do to cause that either).

The most hopeful stories in the Cthulhu Mythos (the collective works of many authors) are usually the ones with human antagonists rather than Things From Beyond. Sometimes it's stuff like "there's a cult trying to summon or awaken a Thing, protagonist finds out about it, temporarily thwarts the plan, and must live with the knowledge that anyone else could pick up and complete the rite whenever they want." Then there's the "group of people who Bred With Something They Shouldn't Have" kind of stories (Innsmouth stuff). Those are usually all right, too.

And yeah, obviously Jim needed a new Monster. But having one that appears to be based off of an existing creature and stating that it's an Outsider is extremely interesting. I'm already smelling tinfoil. It all depends on how much of the source material for the Cornerhound (if indeed Hounds of Tindalos are the source for the Dresden creature) Jim wants to keep. We'll know based on either Eb's/Bonea's/Someone Else's exposition or Harry's internal narration: if it mentions Time at all, then hold onto your butts.

80
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 22, 2020, 08:38:29 PM »
I'd also like to point out that it took me a solid five minutes to realize that Eb was using a super dated term for "Yeah, most likely" when he says, "Belike." I seriously thought he was confirming that a specific person or entity was responsible for what they were seeing. Like Batman talking to Robin.
The green paint splattered across the wall, and Robin could still hear echoes of laughter.
"Is that what I think it is?" Robin asked.
"Joker," Batman confirmed.


I spent five minutes racking my brain for any previous mention of a Dresden villain named Belike. Kept thinking of Belloq from Indiana Jones.

81
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 22, 2020, 08:07:21 PM »
Some of this stuff is spoiler-ish, but most of it is borderline. Read at your own risk.

By the way, if you like super weird, uncomfortable satire/humor, there's this series of videos by the comedy group Wham City. It's called the Children of the Mirror. I promise the concept of Hounds of Tindalos is crucial to understanding what the hell is going on in this series (which follows the True Art is Incomprehensible trope pretty well while also maintaining surface level entertainment):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFw0b8t4ICM&list=PLmu6JBK17BzjH0HBjhdUXc2IfrCRQGhcD

Interesting bit is that the Hounds weren't in Lovecraft's original works, but were added in by a different author, Frank Long, one of Lovecraft's good friends. I think it was the first time HP let someone else write for his setting. Lovecraft canonized it (what is and what is not canon in Lovecraftian fiction is always debatable, because so many other authors contributed to the universe over the past hundred-ish years. Pretty much EVERYTHING is canon as far as I'm concerned, Derleth's attempt at codification be damned) at some point a few years later in one of his longer pieces. I forget which.

Anyway, the Hounds are entities that are pretty much the perfect Pursuit Predator. If you catch the attention of one of them, they will hunt you FOREVER. There is basically zero escape. They can travel through any sharp-ish angle (hence, I assume, Eb's use of the term "Cornerhound"), like the end of a hallway.

You wanna know the best part? The really awesome, tinfoil-hattish part? The way you catch their attention is by traveling through f*&^ing time. The presence of one (or more) during Peace Talks is going to launch thousands of Time Travel WAGs (unless it's explained thoroughly in the book. Just saying "Ah, a mortal must've summoned one" won't be enough).

I mean... why specifically one of those, even if it's an Outsider? It's one of just three named Outsiders in 15 books—Walkers, Nemesis, and Cornerhounds (the "mistfiend" from Turn Coat I took to be a Nevernever creature that had been infused with Mordite rather than an Outsider itself. If it is indeed a true Outsider, then it's four). You very rarely hear Eb (or anyone, really) talk about different species or categories of Outsiders, just kinda "oh, that was an Outsider." Harry describes the scene at the Outer Gates as one in which most of those fighting have too little in common to really categorize. So I posit that if Eb can recognize this particular type of Outsider on sight, it must have appeared on the mortal plane often enough to warrant naming beyond "Outsider, Type 87645."

82
DF Spoilers / Re: Peace talks excerpt indications
« on: January 22, 2020, 07:32:50 PM »
Well, I am pretty sure Drakul is also an Outsider but anyway - it might no be a 'basic' monster, but it seems like a relatively low-level Outsider, which Goblins and other Fae seemed to be able to kill.

And from what Jim has said about Eb, he was even wilder and more gung-ho than Harry!

Unless the Cornerhound is specifically deadly in a certain way to Wizards or something, I don't really see why Eb would be more afraid in this situation than taking on Vampires or Demons or Faeries etc.

EDIT:
(click to show/hide)

Came here to mention Hounds of Tindalos. "Cornerhound" sounds like a slang description of one of those bad boys.

83
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Shadows
« on: January 06, 2020, 05:29:35 PM »
I think that Hannah's (not Hannasciel, but Hannah Ascher herself) main purposes covered a fairly wide range.

1. In-universe: Harry's preferential treatment toward women is documented and referred to by villains and allies alike, at least three hundred and fifty-eight thousand, two hundred and twenty-seven times per book. Nicodemus sought her out for a couple of reasons, including her natural talent with fire. The other is to provide a hole card for the inevitable confrontation with Harry, and picking a pretty woman is a good way to catch Harry off-guard.

2. Narratively: Hannah's kind of a dark reflection of what Harry might have become. Warlock who killed people in self-defense, but with no Ebenezer to take responsibility. Ran from the White Council and lived as a fugitive. Sought protection and an alliance (and, from her words, friendship) with the Brotherhood of St. Giles. Still hunted and without an organization to protect her, she joined up with Nicodemus.

3. She also represents one facet of the direct human consequences of Harry's decision to kill the Red Court. She put a face to all the faceless people who have suffered from the fallout of Chichen Itza—not just the defenseless Paranetters or plain ol' mortals who've been attacked or abducted by the Fomor, I mean. She can defend herself (quite well, I'd add), but she's one of the people who lost "everything" because of Harry's choice (not quite everything, obviously, since she's still living and breathing.)

4. Her righteous indignation was the result of circumstances that were similar to Harry's; if he'd either A) not had Ebenezer to take responsibility for him and guide him, or B) simply been more bitter over his situation, he very well might've joined Nicodemus way back in Death Masks. The difference is that Harry had good people in his life; Hannah didn't. Or she did, but they were all killed.

What would've happened to Harry if everyone had died in Changes? He might not have picked up a Coin, but I'm willing to be he'd be a lot more like Mirrorverse Harry come Skin Game.

84
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Shadows
« on: January 03, 2020, 03:36:57 PM »
Nope.

The reality is those coins are meant to be in circulation.  Not even Hades can keep them out of play.
This, of course!  You're spot-on, here.

Ultimately, the story goes however Jim says it goes.  He could leave the coin in the vault; he could have it already out and circulating; he could leave it there, and pull it out when he wants it back.  Maybe he has HARRY summon the Coin!

Similarly, Lasciel could be out and circulating (on the "meant to be in circulation" grounds), but we may never see her again if Jim decides a "Harry/Lasciel rematch" would be too much travelling the same ground.

The point is that Lasciel's part in the story has ended. Unless and until Jim decides to put her back into the story, the Coin is in the Vault. She can come out of the Vault if Jim wants her to—she doesn't even have to show up. Just a throwaway line from Nic or whoever saying something about removing the Coin from the Vault is enough to remove her from there. But unless and until that happens, that's where the Coin remains.

Just because the Coins are meant to be in circulation doesn't mean that they can't be removed from circulation—at least for so long that it's essentially the same thing. Enduring until the heat death of the universe or the apocalypse is kinda indistinguishable from "forever" for practical purposes, even if those events happen within a few decades.

The Coins' ability to stay "free" mostly seems to rely upon variables that can be manipulated—almost like an entropy curse. But there have to be things that can be manipulated for it to happen—breaking an aquarium's glass wall, for instance, and a gentle shift along the Coin's axis can send it rolling toward an unsuspecting mortal, like we saw. Held within the Church's version of Area 51, you've got various people you can manipulate (apparently responsible for Nicodemus recovering about 50% of lost Coins), along with environmental effects, electrical circuits to disrupt, fires to start, weather, etc. Plenty to work with.

In Hades's Vault, there's rock, treasure, shades, and a god so badass he wears a crown made out of Deathstone. Yes, mortals can reach the Vault with enough badassery of their own, but we all saw the kind of team it took to get there.

The only way the Coins (remember the Genoskwa had one too, and I don't know if Nic thought to grab his on his way out) had anything to work with at all was at the moment of their hosts' deaths. If Hannah's Coin squirted out through a gap in the molten rocks from the pressure and landed on a pile of other coins, sure, Nic could've grabbed it when he skedaddled. I find it more likely that he grabbed Genny's after Harry got him pancaked—that's something Anduriel's shadow can do, being two-dimensional and all.

But the point is that, unless Nic grabbed Lasciel's Coin somehow, doubling back to the Vault after escaping Michael and Harry, it just doesn't have anything around it to work with that would get it into mortal hands. It's no longer on the mortal plane at all. It'll stay there until another crew decides to pull a heist.

More importantly, it'll stay there until Jim needs it to be elsewhere. It's just too much of a stretch for me to really think otherwise unless it's stated in the text. Speculation is dope, and I encourage it; there are plenty of fun ways to imagine the Coin is out there wreaking further havoc still. But there's just too much against the idea for it to be really feasible to me without confirmation.

Lasciel will show up in the stories if Jim wants to have her there... my guess is that he does, and so she will.
I don't know what Lasciel would add to the main case files. Her arc feels rather complete. We saw her shadow's arc play out between Death Masks and White Night. We saw the aftereffects for several books beyond that. Then we saw what it looks like when Lasciel's temptations work, from an outsider's perspective. And we saw Harry dish out karmic justice (pretty directly, too; he used Hannasciel's magic against her). That felt pretty final to me. Having her return to the main series would just feel kinda like retreading the same ground. Considering that Jim wants to start tightening up future novels, I'd say that yet another round with Lasciel would constitute unnecessary bloat, the type of which you'd want to trim.

The BAT is a different story, though (heh, possibly literally). I have zero doubt that the Fallen will play a big role in the Apocalypse. Lasciel could have a role there.

But where we are in the series, I'm not even sure the Denarians are going to return before the BAT. If they do, it'll be one more round, probably around book 20 (could be the very last one, which might be as late as book 22). It depends on how the next book shakes out, in my opinion; I fully anticipate Peace Talks will be setting the stage for the remaining players for the series and positioning everyone for the last minute scramble before the music stops. Nicky and His Superpals will probably show up before the case files ends, but it's possible they'll be offstage until the apocalypses kick off. (In which case, my WAG is that the order of the BAT is 1. Hell's Bells, 2. Stars and Stones, 3. Empty Night; Hell's Bells will start with the apocalypse of Revelations (or the Dresdenverse equivalent) and the Denarians' role will be center stage.)


85
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarians and/or Circle in Storm Front?
« on: January 03, 2020, 03:34:48 PM »
I'm not at all clear that the Circle actually wanted ThreeEye to be a success.

I mean... you may be right!  On the face of it, it looks like an awfully silly thing to do, if they DIDN'T want it to succeed.

On the other hand, maybe they counted on somebody to take down Victor, stop the drug... Harry, Bianca, Marcone, Raith... Sells was operating out of his league.  He had raw power, but very-minimal training, and little info on the wider supernatural community.  It was inevitable that someone would end him.   The BC could eventually have just killed him themselves, if nobody else managed it.

The thing is:  if they really wanted to make ThreeEye a success, they should have launched it somewhere else.  Somewhere without a ruthless crime-lord possessing startling self-discipline and a flair for strategic thinking; somewhere away from one of Papa Raith's chateaux; somewhere far from a powerful wizard with a WhiteKnight complex, like Harry Dresden.  Somewhere without a resident Knight of the Cross!!!  Build their base in small farming towns, in rural places, etc.  If for some reason they want it in Chicago, then start it in all the areas AROUND Chicago, and let it filter into town... maybe even just cut a deal to distribute through Marcone!  That's the way to get it going, if spreading the drug was a goal in itself.

I think it only happened in Chicago because that's where everything seems to happen. Which, considering what we know about the Circle, is actually a pretty good idea.

Most of the established Supernatural Powers consider North America the boonies. The White Council had, what, five Wardens stationed in the US? Harry, Ramirez, Wild Bill, the other one who reported to Harry, and then maybe one or two who reported to Carlos? The Red Court didn't seem to have a huge presence there, either; Bianca's elevation to Margravine (I think that was the title she was given in Grave Peril, please correct me if I'm wrong) was a really big deal, and it's not like she was running Chicago. She ran a brothel.

Winter and Summer didn't really have an established presence there at the time yet; Aurora and Maeve had recently moved in during Summer Knight (I forget the exact timeline, but it was within a year or so of the start of SK).

The only truly major player in the area at the time that the Supernatural Powers would really care about was the White Court, and they didn't seem interested in the local drug trade. They're barely present in the story until Blood Rites.

And Harry hadn't exactly gotten himself his reputation for White Knighting yet. Storm Front is his first truly big case (well, it's treated that way in the text; I haven't read the comics, so I'm not sure if there's a major event that takes place before SF). He was a potential warlock that the Outsiders had some kind of interest in; if anything, I'd think that the Circle would want Harry on their side, and would view his presence as a potential upside, but represent relatively minor risk.

So at the time in Chicago, you've got: Bianca's Velvet Room; Chateau Raith; Marcone; Chicago PD; Harry Dresden, Broke-Ass Wizard. That's a far cry from what would be there even a few books later (expanded White Court presence and influence, Winter and Summer presences, a Black Court scourge, the Chicago Alliance, the Alphas, a supernaturally savvy Marcone + Monoc Security contractors (VIKINGS), and Harry Dresden, Terror Hero, Warden of Demonreach and the White Council, Winter Knight, pseudo-Denarian, He of the Gross Left Hand, Friend of Mouse, Bane of Bad Guys and Personal Hygiene). There's also Michael, of course.

But anyway, I don't see how the Circle could have thought that Marcone would be important enough to even care about. The only answer to things like that is Time Travel or Prophecy, and at that point almost every mystery can be answered similarly. My personal WAG about Marcone in SF/Fool Moon is that Odin saw the potential for Marcone to become a player after Storm Front and arranged for the belts to be delivered to Denton's Pack as a test. I don't think it's an accident that the next time we see Marcone after Fool Moon, he's working with Gard.

But in Storm Front? Nah. I don't think any of the supernatural powers, including the Circle/Black Council even gave mob outfits like Marcone's a second thought.

I sometimes think that they were flooding the streets with Three Eye as a way to find something. More specifically, someone who would react to the drug in a specific way.

86
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarian Shadows
« on: January 02, 2020, 07:34:15 PM »
The reality is that Lasciel is in Hades's Vault forever, permanently, for all eternity. Unless Jim decides he needs Lasciel down the line for reasons (maybe the Denarians will play a major role in the BAT, for instance, and we'll get to see all thirty in Hell's Bells), at which point "eternity" just meant "for several books." Then he'll justify her Coin getting recirculated in whatever way best fits the story (Nicodemus very well might've snatched it before fleeing during Skin Game, as some of you have suggested. Or someone could summon her. Or whatever. It honestly almost doesn't matter.)

But, if he never needs to use Lasciel again, then her fate is to lie in that Vault forever.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I feel the same way about Cat Sith. He's dead unless Jim decides he isn't, at which point Sith will have been rescued or Deus Ex Machina-ed back to life.

87
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarians and/or Circle in Storm Front?
« on: January 02, 2020, 07:28:55 PM »
My take on Storm Front is that it was all about getting Three Eye onto the market for some purpose. That's what I think the Circle/Black Council/Whatever really wanted.

So they guide Sells down the path to Criminal Prosperity by helping him start up this magical meth lab, right? That's the Circle's real goal. Marcone becomes a problem for Sells, and he gets enough power to "handle him" on his own, either through further research and experimentation or just by getting a hookup from the Circle. But he needs Marcone's hair or something, else he'd have just offed him from the start. That's why he was paying off what's his face, the guy who got Harry's hair who bit the dust in the original Velvet Room courtesy of Cujo Hendricks. It just so happened that Harry got in the way and was a more immediate threat, and so was prioritized over Marcone. I fully expect Sells to have gotten to Marcone during the following storm if Harry hadn't stopped him. In fact, it might've been during that SAME storm if it lasted long enough.

But yeah, I think the Circle wanted something to happen with the Three Eye. I just don't know what that something is.

88
DF Spoilers / Re: Unidentified Winter Knight Abilities
« on: January 02, 2020, 07:19:45 PM »
  Not really though,   unlike Slate, Harry, as was said about King Alfred the Great,  "you won't beat him because the bastard thinks.."  Bernard Conwell, "The Last Kingdom."  Great books and a wonderful three season series on Netflix..

I always confuse Alfred the Great's father with Æthelred the Unready.

The fun thing about the Slate fight is that Fix did all the work for him. Push a nerd too far and you'll get wrenched.

89
DF Spoilers / Re: Denarians and/or Circle in Storm Front?
« on: December 30, 2019, 09:21:46 PM »
because Lord Raith is a complexity addict who just couldn't do the job with two bullets.
This is especially glaring when you consider that he was already at the point where he was getting his hands dirty. He personally captured Murphy and Harry, so it's not like he was hiding behind eighteen layers of cutouts and pawns anymore. Just... just shoot them in the head. Bam. You win!

Bond Villain Stupidity indeed. HE EVEN LEAVES THE ROOM!

90
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: Mirror! Mirror!
« on: December 30, 2019, 09:14:02 PM »
Also, does anyone else feel like it would be a huge missed opportunity in Mirror Mirror if we don't get a Harry on Harey soul gaze?

Well, I would now that you've mentioned it.

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