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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG - Harry has never met Justin DuMorne. His Justin was Heinrich Kemmler.
« on: January 29, 2020, 08:34:44 PM »
I think what turned Justin was learning the truth about the Outer Gates, and realizing What Was Coming, which is why he was looking to mold a pair of Starborn (Starborns? Starsborn?). The only thing we know for sure about Starborn is that they lack some of the weaknesses mortal wizards have against Outsiders.
Based on that, I see three reasons Justin would want that. Either:
A) He wanted to fight them and prevent the Outsider Apocalypse that the series appears to be building toward. This is active opposition to the Outsider Plot.
B) He wanted to suborn the Outsiders and, in some fashion, use their power for himself. I don't know if he thought that Starborn might be able to mentally dominate Outsiders, for example, but I'm sure the idea of enslaving an army of them would have appealed to him if he thought it could be done. Maybe the Starborn would instead have been responsible for a Darkhallow-ish ritual that can only be performed if you can get magic to stick to Outsiders in the first place, and Justin would've legit become an Outsider-level god. Lots of different possibilities with this one that I can see.
C) He wanted Harry and Elaine to be Humanity's Backup Plan. If the walls of Reality crumbled and humanity was about to die off after the Outsiders "won," the two of them would be the seed from which the species could persist. This is the least likely, because I have no clue how Justin would have thought he could have possibly kept the two of them safe if the universe/multiverse was destroyed by Outsiders.
Anywho, I dunno if Justin was planning to fight, steal, or build an Ark. I personally believe he was planning to Steal, and was just dumb about it.
I do go back and forth between Steal and Fight, though. Because if he was really looking to bend Harry and Elaine to his will, he screwed up MASSIVELY, and I can't see Justin being as dumb about it as he was. He basically already had Harry and Elaine on Team Justin. I don't know about Elaine, but I know that Justin was Harry's first paternal figure since Malcolm died. Harry already would have probably done quite a few questionable deeds if Justin had simply asked him. If he had taken just a little more time—a year, maybe, or even six months—he could have manipulated both of them into becoming the thugs everyone claims he wanted.
I've said this before on this forum (well, technically the last one—thanks again, Griffyn), but it's really not that hard to manipulate teenagers. Getting them to do dirty work is easy enough with standard cult-like indoctrination. There's no magic required there; it's all about breaking them down and building them up to your liking. Sadly, it happens all the time in reality—I've known people whom I've tried to help get out of situations like that (sadly unsuccessfully). It is not difficult to accomplish; it just takes time and a complete lack of morality. I've seen young people turn from bright and skeptical to dead-eyed and unshakably credulous over the course of a single year.
I therefore believe that either A) Justin no longer had the luxury of time to accomplish this, and had to rush things for one reason or another (which is compatible with all of the above possible motivations), or B) Justin never intended to turn them into simple thugs in the first place, and what Harry and Elaine went through was either meant for some other purpose, or Justin was no longer in charge. That's really only compatible with the first possible motivation (raising two Starborn to fight the Outsiders), in my opinion. If this is the case, then I think it's possible that the OP is both right and incorrect; Harry did know Justin DuMorne, but the one Harry killed was not the same Justin DuMorne he knew and lived with. I think it is possible that Kemmler OR Nemesis OR Both OR Something Else got to Justin, and possessed/reshaped him such that he was no longer calling the shots.
I'm not saying it's super likely to be true, but I do think it's possible. It would certainly explain my personal hangup about Justin's sudden Kung Fu grip on the Idiot Ball.
Based on that, I see three reasons Justin would want that. Either:
A) He wanted to fight them and prevent the Outsider Apocalypse that the series appears to be building toward. This is active opposition to the Outsider Plot.
B) He wanted to suborn the Outsiders and, in some fashion, use their power for himself. I don't know if he thought that Starborn might be able to mentally dominate Outsiders, for example, but I'm sure the idea of enslaving an army of them would have appealed to him if he thought it could be done. Maybe the Starborn would instead have been responsible for a Darkhallow-ish ritual that can only be performed if you can get magic to stick to Outsiders in the first place, and Justin would've legit become an Outsider-level god. Lots of different possibilities with this one that I can see.
C) He wanted Harry and Elaine to be Humanity's Backup Plan. If the walls of Reality crumbled and humanity was about to die off after the Outsiders "won," the two of them would be the seed from which the species could persist. This is the least likely, because I have no clue how Justin would have thought he could have possibly kept the two of them safe if the universe/multiverse was destroyed by Outsiders.
Anywho, I dunno if Justin was planning to fight, steal, or build an Ark. I personally believe he was planning to Steal, and was just dumb about it.
I do go back and forth between Steal and Fight, though. Because if he was really looking to bend Harry and Elaine to his will, he screwed up MASSIVELY, and I can't see Justin being as dumb about it as he was. He basically already had Harry and Elaine on Team Justin. I don't know about Elaine, but I know that Justin was Harry's first paternal figure since Malcolm died. Harry already would have probably done quite a few questionable deeds if Justin had simply asked him. If he had taken just a little more time—a year, maybe, or even six months—he could have manipulated both of them into becoming the thugs everyone claims he wanted.
I've said this before on this forum (well, technically the last one—thanks again, Griffyn), but it's really not that hard to manipulate teenagers. Getting them to do dirty work is easy enough with standard cult-like indoctrination. There's no magic required there; it's all about breaking them down and building them up to your liking. Sadly, it happens all the time in reality—I've known people whom I've tried to help get out of situations like that (sadly unsuccessfully). It is not difficult to accomplish; it just takes time and a complete lack of morality. I've seen young people turn from bright and skeptical to dead-eyed and unshakably credulous over the course of a single year.
I therefore believe that either A) Justin no longer had the luxury of time to accomplish this, and had to rush things for one reason or another (which is compatible with all of the above possible motivations), or B) Justin never intended to turn them into simple thugs in the first place, and what Harry and Elaine went through was either meant for some other purpose, or Justin was no longer in charge. That's really only compatible with the first possible motivation (raising two Starborn to fight the Outsiders), in my opinion. If this is the case, then I think it's possible that the OP is both right and incorrect; Harry did know Justin DuMorne, but the one Harry killed was not the same Justin DuMorne he knew and lived with. I think it is possible that Kemmler OR Nemesis OR Both OR Something Else got to Justin, and possessed/reshaped him such that he was no longer calling the shots.
I'm not saying it's super likely to be true, but I do think it's possible. It would certainly explain my personal hangup about Justin's sudden Kung Fu grip on the Idiot Ball.