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Messages - nadia.skylark

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646
DF Spoilers / Re: Proven Guilty WAG: Rashid's behind it!
« on: February 20, 2019, 05:21:02 AM »
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However, Rashid has already arranged for the horror movie convention to occur, complete with Madrigal Raith to make sure it's extra tasty, and the Fetches get distracted long enough for Harry to get thoroughly involved.

Sandra whatshername works for him, or whoever she works for owed him a favor.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 20, 2019, 05:19:30 AM »
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When I memorize numbers I reinforce them by repeating or using them.  This is the sense in which magic reinforces the Shadow.

I have trouble with this. I absolutely believe that drawing on hellfire for his magic causes Harry to reinforce behavioral patterns that are to the shadow's benefit, but I'm not sure why it would reinforce the shadow itself.

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If your going to use the word lie than give me a why.  I can accept a continuity error, are you suggesting something more?

I'm interested in exploring the priorities of the Knights in general and Michael in particular. Specifically, I'm looking for an answer to the question "to what extent will a Knight do something that they would normally consider wrong to preserve a soul/souls?" We know the answer isn't that they never would, because I can't imagine a world in which Michael thinks that it is right to stand by and let a person be tortured under normal circumstances. We also know that they will refuse to compromise their beliefs most of the time no matter what is at stake, based on their refusal to threaten/kill Cassius themselves and refusal to go after the Denarians preemptively in Small Favor (even though they had taken a hostage and it really would have been a rescue mission).

I want to know where they draw the line, and establishing whether it is more likely than not that Michael has lied to Harry will help answer that.

(I may be slightly biased: I personally believe that letting someone else darken their soul by torturing someone is a worse act than torturing someone yourself, because you're letting someone else be harmed rather than risking yourself. I realize it wasn't intended to be read this way, but emotionally it feels like the Knights were saying that their souls had more value than those that would be hurt if they did nothing. Having Michael be lying makes me like him more, because it shows that he is human and fallible, just trying to do the best he can to help people even if it's not something he's comfortable with (meaning he didn't think what Harry did to Cassius was actually all that bad, and just objected for form's sake) rather than the perfect paladin who would never do that (meaning he stood by and let his friend corrupt his soul without even trying to intervene). )

If you can find evidence that Michael wasn't lying, though, I'm fine with that. I've seen one or two explanations posted to that effect that make sense.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 20, 2019, 04:09:48 AM »
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The shadow has to draw power from something. If it can survive only on a wizard's power, then it would be believable that Michael believed that Harry would have to set aside his power.

This is true: if the shadow could survive on a wizard's power, it would provide support for Michael's claim in Proven Guilty. However, Bob said that Lash was drawing power from Harry's soul, and I'm pretty sure all humans have one of those, whether they have magic or not.

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Perhaps Michael was confounding black magic taint with shadow taint. Then he hit the books and realized his mistake.

Possibly. Though I still think that in this case Michael should have told Harry when he discovered it.

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The simplest explanation was that Michael lied to Harry in Proven Guilty because he believed what he later said in Small Favor. If he told Harry he had to take up the coin to rid himself of the shadow, that would be one more thing tempting him to take up the coin. Michael knows Harry better than we will ever know anyone irl. He has seen his soul. Michael could have thought that Harry's best chance of not going to hell was living for centuries with the shadow because Harry would have been too stubborn to ever take up the coin.

I like this explanation! It makes a lot of sense.

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Statement one says the Shadow will waste away, not that it will be gone.  And that can't happen since Harry won't give up his power which reinforces its existence.  Which was the condition that Micheal set.  This is true if you accept my use of waste away. 

There are two problems with this. The first is that I see no evidence that Harry's magic reinforces the existence of the shadow. The second is that I don't accept your interpretation of "waste away." If that was the sense in which Michael was using it, then he was being deliberately misleading.

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Your reading waste away as gone.
Yes. I am.

Me too.

649
DF Spoilers / Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: February 20, 2019, 03:50:23 AM »
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Much as Harry jumped on helping him implement it out of necessity at the last moment, it was still Martin's plan that Susan should kill him and turn. Harry caught that in the soulgaze with Martin; that why he asked Martin how the Reds found Maggie.

As I remember it, Harry realized what Martin's plan was after he had independently made the choices that allowed it to work.

Also, I personally think that Martin could not possibly have planned things that specifically, and that his actual plan was just to put Harry in a position where he had to use the bloodline curse on the Reds rather than necessarily that he would manipulate Susan into turning. I feel that if Susan hadn't had Amorrachius, then there would be too much chance of Susan dying/not getting as far, and that Martin couldn't reasonably have planned for her getting Amorrachius.

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DF Spoilers / Proven Guilty WAG: Rashid's behind it!
« on: February 20, 2019, 02:22:30 AM »
So, I've come up with a theory for why Mab would want to kidnap Molly, revolving around Rashid's power of making cryptic statements about the future.

The idea is that Rashid (at two different times) makes statements to Mab indicating that the Winter Lady will be/is infected by Nemesis, and that Molly will/could be the Winter Lady.

Mab interprets this to mean that Nemesis is plotting to kill her daughter and replace her with Molly as their pawn, and promptly sends the Fetches to hunt down/kidnap Molly (either because she can't order them to kill her directly or because she wants to find out if Molly knows anything about Nemesis' plans and make her tell her).

However, Rashid has already arranged for the horror movie convention to occur, complete with Madrigal Raith to make sure it's extra tasty, and the Fetches get distracted long enough for Harry to get thoroughly involved.

The Fetches get Molly eventually, and Mab realizes that it is unlikely (Mab says in Cold Days that it's hard/impossible to be completely sure) that Molly is not Infected (yet). Furthermore, she's been keeping tabs on Harry since he got involved, and realizes that Maeve is acting very suspiciously.

She doesn't want to accept it, of course, but between this and the fact that Rashid helped Harry protect Molly, she is forced to acknowledge that Maeve is Infected.

The book ends with Mab realizing a clear and present danger to her court and Harry gaining an apprentice who can compensate for his weaknesses and force him to improve them--just as Rashid planned!

What do people think?

651
DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: February 20, 2019, 02:00:31 AM »
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First: Just because mythology makes the claim doesn't mean it's entirely accurate for the Dresdenverse.  It may just be a very very powerful weapon that's even more powerful than the Swords used by the KoTC.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

652
DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 20, 2019, 01:59:32 AM »
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Harry didn't rid himself of the Shadow.  So Micheal was right.

The issue is not whether Michael is right. The issue is that Michael contradicted himself.

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Does Sonja have a shadow in his mind?  He used to have a Coin.  He's never mentioned it I don't think.

Michael says in Small Favor that you lose the shadow if you take up the coin and then reject it, so Sanya wouldn't have a shadow regardless of whether he had magic.

Of course...Michael could be lying ;D.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 19, 2019, 11:34:04 PM »
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Actually as pointed out, the records are sketchy because they have been meddled with over the centuries...  The statement of the shadow verses the coin isn't contradictory, one is tangible, the coin, where as the shadow isn't tangible..  The shadow is the projection of the Fallen that after physical contact with it's coin sets up shop in the brain to soften up the would be host to eventually accept the coin.  Once the coin is accepted by the host, the host is then under the control of the Fallen holding the coin..  The host benefits and usually doesn't want to give up the coin, but it happens, the influence vanishes and the man or woman if free to finish his or her life freely..   Usually with the help of a Holy Knight...  The shadow is a flim-flam person selling the would be host a bill of goods... It never stops whispering, so it a lot harder to discard plus there is no tangible proof that is has been discarded... Perhaps claims of this have been made in the past, but were never true.. Remember in Small Favor, Nic was quite shocked when he called on Lasciel to take over Harry only to find out she no longer lived there.

What? You appear to be talking about what the difference is between taking up the coin and having the shadow inside your head, but I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.

The issue under discussion is reconciling the two statements:

1) Giving up your magic will get rid of the shadow.

2) The only way anyone has gotten rid of a shadow is by taking up the coin and then setting it aside.

654
DF Spoilers / Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: February 19, 2019, 11:29:53 PM »
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Susan didn't die because of Harry,  the seeds of her death were planted way back in Storm Front, long before Harry.  She liked to write about the supernatural, expose it, used Harry, though yeah came to love him, to gain fame and fortune in her career...  She gave lip service to believing what she saw and experienced but she never paid it enough respect, so like a great many dangerous things it bit her in the ass...  Even if she had never met Harry in my opinion Susan was destined to die by some supernatural means or another simply because brave as she was and smart as she was, she was always in over her head.

I agree with you. However, I'm fairly certain that Harry wouldn't.

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DF Spoilers / Re: WAG: why Nicodemus wanted the knife
« on: February 19, 2019, 09:46:42 PM »
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the mythology of the Knife is that the wielder cannot be defeated.

True, but I have a hard time believing that this is true in the Dresdenverse. For one thing, it destroys all tension--Harry has the Knife, ergo he will always win. For another thing, it undermines free will somewhat if the wielder will win no matter what anyone does. The Knife is clearly connected to the the White God, and he doesn't do that. What I think the knife might do is allow its wielder to carry out their choices unimpeded, ex. if Harry chooses to look for a way out of the Winter Knight mantle, Mab can't just put a geas on him to stop him, but Harry has to make that choice (and then all the choices that would lead to him finding a way and then choosing to go through with it--although he might be helped by contrived coincidence). If Harry, on the other hand, chose to get into a sword fight with Nicodemus without protective armor, the Knife might tilt things in Harry's favor but I have a hard time believing that it would stop him from getting stabbed.

656
DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 19, 2019, 09:37:07 PM »
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The set aside your power and only by taking up and giving up the coin statements are still contradictory. No one has ever gotten a shadow and then gotten rid of it by setting aside magic (according to statement 3).

This.

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Michael's quote from Proven Guilty telling Harry to set aside his power.

I appear to have been unclear about what I meant here--sorry. I meant: do we have any evidence that Michael was right/do we know what evidence Michael had to base this claim on.

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Their is also some evidence that the Shadow was using only Harry to survive in White Night, but that it wasn't "healthy."

True, but Harry still had his magic then, so it doesn't speak to that. If anything, this is evidence for the fact that the shadow can draw some measure of strength from the Fallen in its coin, even when the host hasn't accepted the coin.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 19, 2019, 08:24:34 PM »
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Him saying that there is no way to rid themselves of the Shadow is factoring in that Harry will not give up his magic.  So he wasn't lying.

Quite possibly, although if this is the case then I wish he had been clearer.

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The shadow is tied to the magical power a wizard possesses.

Do we have any evidence of this whatsoever? Lasciel's shadow may have been providing Harry with hellfire, but unless there is evidence that the Fallen can only place shadows in magic users' heads, then I don't see how this works.

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Also facts that Michael knows, no one has ever rid themselves of the shadow of a Fallen.

Then why on Earth would he claim that Harry giving up his magic would be enough to rid him of the shadow? If Michael has evidence that no one has managed to rid themselves of a shadow (as flawed as that evidence turned out to be) then this claim is pretty insupportable.

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Point of fact, Michael does not say he has faith Harry will find another way to get rid of the Shadow.

Thanks! I retract any point I made based on Michael claiming that he had faith that Harry would rid himself of the shadow. That said, this still contradicts his emphatic claim in Small Favor that there is no way to be rid of the shadow.

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I also think that Michael did not intentionally lie to Harry. That would be completely out of character for him. I think Michael stated the truth that he knew based upon his information and experience. His information was obviously incomplete.

I agree that it is out of character for Michael to lie. However, the problem is not the incompleteness of his information--it's the contradiction in his own statements.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: February 19, 2019, 08:11:11 PM »
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Susan wasn't forced into anything,  she wanted to save her daughter.  It was Harry who chose her to wield the Sword of Love, because she was going out of love to save her daughter.  She accepted..  In desperation to save their daughter and everyone else he revealed to her Martin's treachery.  Let's not lose sight that his betrayal is why little Maggie was on the chop block to begin with.. Yes, it pissed her off, but she had been pissed off before, this time she chose to change and rip Martin's throat out..

In Changes, the narration makes it pretty clear that Harry believes that he intentionally manipulated her, and that it was an awful thing to do. I don't have the book with me, but I believe that it was something like "god forgive me for what I did next, because I never will."

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Murphy was only chosen as a Knight for the night they went to rescue little Maggie..  As of Skin Game she was no longer a Knight, won't go into the problems that occurred afterwards.. 

I agree with you, but I think Harry doesn't.

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However you neglect to mention that Uriel loaned his Grace to Michael, retired but still a Holy Knight so he could physically accompany Harry on the mission, it was that important..  Also Harry was never really working for Nic in the first place, it was all a double cross orchestrated by Mab, Kringle with a lot of help from Mr Gray...  Harry manages to keep all relics except the Grail out of Nic's hands and selects the next Holy Knight, Butters..

None of this was clear when Harry told Michael what happened during Changes, and in the same conversation Harry made it clear that he felt that working for Nic contributed to him feeling like a monster even though he was planning to double cross him.

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If you can think of a better way or a less monstrous way to save little Maggie and her rescuers, feel free to write..

I don't think there was a better way at all, but that doesn't change the fact that it was horrible.

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Do you think any of that would happen if Harry was really this deluded monster who is just kidding himself?

I don't think Harry is deluded or a monster--quite the contrary. I think that Harry is a genuinely good person who was put in an impossible situation, coped with it admirably at the time, and fell apart a little afterward. If he wasn't a good person, he would have no reason to feel bad about what happened.

Human brains rewrite memories all the time. It can even be triggered by someone asking questions the wrong way--this is why police officers need to be careful when questioning witnesses. I think Harry is less susceptible to this than most people because he's trained his memory as part of being an investigator, but short of having an eidetic memory no one is immune to it completely.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Michael lie?
« on: February 15, 2019, 09:25:23 PM »
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I don't think Michael lied because of who Jim wanted him to be. The perfect paladin.

Remember, Jim also wanted Michael to be human. It's shown explicitly in "The Warrior" when Uriel says that without Harry's help Michael would have made the wrong choice because his child had been hurt.

I can believe that Michael would lie because he thought that it was the only way to save Harry's soul--and I believe that he could be (and was) wrong about that.

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DF Spoilers / Re: Did Harry lie to Michael, or worse?
« on: February 15, 2019, 09:22:25 PM »
I think Harry has subconsciously rewritten his memory of the incident because he couldn't reconcile the contradictions in what happened any other way (memory is not notoriously reliable--this happens a lot).

Because think about it: what happens?

Harry forces a standing KotC into a position where awful things happen to her, culminating in him sacrificing her in a ritual spell that causes widespread destruction on a scale sufficient that, based on Ghost Story, huge numbers of people are losing hope/compromising their principles--basically, exactly what Nicodemus was trying to pull off in Death Masks.

And then he dies--fair enough, he believes that people who do this kind of thing deserve to die.

Then comes the problem--because everyone says that things were worse because he died. More than that, he was manipulated into dying by one of the Fallen.

And then he comes back, and the only thing that any of his friends and allies object to is that he's the winter knight. They're worried about what he might become, sure, but none of them see a problem in what he's done aside from killing himself.

And he can't cope. He knows he's a monster, knows he deserves to die, because no matter how awful he feels about it he knows that he would do the same again if it were necessary. And yet, all the people whose judgement he trusts above his own don't see the problem--don't acknowledge that there could be a problem. Hell, Karrin is still willing to back him up when he goes to work for Nicodemus of all people, and she was chosen by the Sword of Faith. And Harry knows something is wrong, knows that none of this makes sense but he's not the most self-reflective person, he can't put the problem into words, much less solve it. Something has to give--and I think what gave is Harry's memory about what happened.

None of which, of course, explains why Nicodemus never brings this up, but that's a slightly different issue.

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