I always thought of fist as a more lower power level skill, but i think of you have claws you use fist, and then it can be pretty deadly!

Claws are 1 damage for 1 refresh, and aren't concealable by default (granted Human Guise is -0).

Strength powers provide 2 damage for 2 refresh, adds other benefits relating to Might and grapples, is not an obvious weapon.  Moreover, you can also stack strength with muscle driven weapons - like most melee weapons - to further boost damage.  So you can combine a free weapon 2 with Strength to hit for 4 damage, whereas Claws doesn't stack with weapons.

In terms of damage adding powers, Strength powers have the same overall damage efficiency as claws, have higher peak damage since they stack with weapons, and provide other benefits.  So Claws aren't exactly going to be a part of too many ideal combos.

Exactly

Yeah, I'd much rather a workable projected set of stats for a lot of the heavy weight guys even if it means they'll be contradicted later than have cop out "well, they'll have this at a minimum, but actually have tons more that aren't listed" stats.

If there's something else, or you don't feel Fred's answer is insufficient, we need to know what and why.


'Martial Arts' isn't necessarily just mean eastern Asian fighting styles; that's just a generalization like so much in the system.

I don't recall saying that it did mean only Asian styles, or that there was a problem with the name of the stunt.

The advantage that the MA tree has over the Weapons tree, is that your fists can't be taken away from you. You can't be disarmed without being dis-armed (pun for effect). This inherently makes it a more generalized set of stunts. Just think for a moment about the Dresden books, and how often Harry has something taken away from him mid-fight. Someone with more unarmed potential doesn't need to stop and get their gear back; in their portion of the narrative, they are always ready to go.

Yeah, Fists can't be disarmed.  It pays for this advantage with lower damage - even Weapon 2 is pretty easy to get for Weapons skill, and weapon 1 is pretty trivial.  Moreover, someone actually worried about getting disarmed can carry multiple weapons. 

Also, Deceit can be used to conceal items (like weapons), so you can attempt to minimize the time spent without weapons).

Personally, I'm inclined to agree from my vague recollections that Killer Blow is possibly too weak for the total costs and the raw situational nature of it. What else in the MA tree suffers from this, or is this the only real egregious example, and everything else is kind of on the line?

Martial Arts allows the character to make declarations and assessments.  Other perception and knowledge skills can do the same thing.  So if the character already has those abilities (because you wanted initiative, you're playing Batman or a tiny police detective, etc), then the Martial Arts stunt is redundant with the character's other traits.  But, by RAW, it's still necessary to take Martial Arts to open up some of the other Fists stunts.   Even if the exact aspects you can find/invent with Martial Arts will differ from what other skills can provide, you could still come up with something.

While the other MA requiring Fist stunts can be good (Footwork looks great, but doesn't require MA), they seem equivalent to stunts from other skills.  There doesn't seem to be any additional advantage that justifies those 3 stunts being the only stunts in the game with a requirement.

Lethal Weapon's damage bonus is less controllable than some other damage boosting stunts, and automatically worthless against a wide range of opponents.  Especially if a lot of mortals wear some kind of armor too.

Killer Blow looks more interesting since you know you've hit before you spend the FP.  Invoking aspects is going to be generally better since they boost accuracy too, but you may end up with nothing if your opponent decides to match your investment (or is just good at defense).  By the time Killer Blow can take effect, it's too late for them to do anything about it.

When targeted multiple specific targets with a spell you have to split both your targeting shifts as well as your power shifts.  So splitting your attacks with magic doesn't give you an advantage for having more raw power.

That being said, you do need to have enough shifts of power to buy the area size or number of targets desired.  I think that most wizards would be able to that though even if they prioritize offensive control more - especially for selective multitarget attacks, which seem like they'd quickly become completely useless if stretched too far, unless used in an ambush.

For Thaumaturgy, the consequences of a failed discipline can be catastrophic since you lose control over ALL the shifts of power generated so far, not just the ones in that exchange.  However, Conviction governs your flow rate, allowing you get more done in time critical situations - which seems like it'd also need Lore to work without prep time.

Generally giving a stunt a prerequisite is about allowing that stunt to be just a tidge more potent (possibly instead more broad). We figured martial arts would be a way to chart that sort of thing out, though really, you can ignore the prereq element if you like. (But I think it feels more real if people have to *understand* fighting styles before they can gain their benefits.)

Well, it doesn't seem like the ability to make analyze fighting styles is unique to martial arts, since other skill types can do the same thing without an inherent limitation.  How someone buys that capability didn't seem to be of great importance.

Second, it seems weird that the default assumption seems to be that someone with Superb Fists wouldn't understand what they're doing.  I mean, that character is essentially operating at a free tag above a Fists 3, MA character (which seems pretty good for someone not planning on punching monsters in the face).  Effectively, the advantage that character with MA can gain with study is applied reflexively by the other character.

Finally, what MA based stunts are more potent than usual?  Guns has something like Armed Arts, letting the character use Guns for certain weapons.  Weapons has Riposte, which is a lot like Redirected Force (except probably better).  There's Lethal Weapon, which is +2 damage with a limit that comes up a lot.  Weapon 2 can be quite good though.  However, it seems less like a bonus for a prerequisite stunt and more like something to make up for the inherent lack of damage to Fists attacks.  Other skills can get something like +1 damage for a stunt (target rich environment/way of the bow for Guns, Off hand weapon training for melee) and start with more damage.

Additionally, Control in excess of your Power is worthless on all non-Attack spells, since they require Power for every shift of effect (a 6 shift block requires 6 power...no matter what you roll on Discipline).

Yes.  Excellent point.

Fortunately, the game offers a way to vary your power vs control settings differently for attacks versus defenses: Focus items.  A caster can still favor control on attack spells by taking a Blasting Rod (or equivalent) loaded with control bonuses (instead of power or an even split), and then bolster his shield with a defensive power focus item.  So you can get the benefits of both approaches.

But, this discussion is one of the reasons my Warden Pup character, who is an evocator, keeps his Discipline and Conviction even at +5. Best of both worlds.

Yeah, that does get you the most juice in your spells.  But it's also 2 top level skills, which is big chunk of your resources - not all evokers will put that much into it, but they still might want the most bang for the buck.  And you can still shift adjust your tradeoff via specializations and focus items even if both skills are at cap.

Control (Discipline) bonuses are more useful than power (Conviction bonuses) when using evocation.

First of all, the normal combat mechanics favor accuracy.  To use an extreme example, let's compare a Weapon 2 with 8 to attack versus a weapon 5 attack with 5 accuracy (a more extreme 8/2 split would involve taking backlash).  Each extra success on attacking adds to damage.  When the weapon heavy attack barely hits against a defense 5 target, it does 5 damage.  Against that target, the 8 accuracy attack has 3 successes, so it hits for weapon 2 plus 3, also 5.  If the target's defense is 0, then both attacks hit for 10 damage.  And if the defense is more than 5, then the accurate attack is the only one doing damage.  So accuracy, and thus Control/Discipline, have a clear advantage because they'll do at least as much damage as a more power shifted attack.

Next, spellcasters have an easy way to get additional power beyond their Conviction.  Each evocation with some power to it costs at least 1 stress.  And you can overchannel to get additional shifts beyond your Conviction by taking additional mental stress.  After you have 1 point of mental stress, both a 1 point hit and a 2 point hit will fill in the #2 mental stress box.  So you can essentially overload your spells for free: a caster with 4 mental stress boxes can cast 4 evocations at power; or 1 at power, 1 at power +1, one at power +2, and one at power +3.  Gee, which one sounds better?    Of course, you need to have enough control rating to handle that boosted power without taking backlash or wasting it in fallout.  Having control somewhat over power helps with using the extra juice safely.

Of course, someone planning on attacking with magic a lot probably wants Conviction 3 as a minimum to get 4 mental stress boxes.  And both skills are obviously important!

However, with a Superb skill cap, Conviction is worth another look because it can grant another mental consequence.  OTOH, you might need it, since it would be harder to control your spells (without a control heavy focus item).

Note that I'm only really looking at how the skills affect spellcasting.  Maybe you like conviction for some other use, as well as casting.  However, it seemed like Discipline could be used as a defense against many mental and social attacks, whereas Conviction comes up mostly for the stress track and the Holy powers, as far as I remember.

Unless I'm missing something.

Do you think it would be unbalanced to have a variation of "Resilient Self-Image" that would apply only to mild mental consequenced caused by spellcasting?

Well, extra consequences that you can choose to use to support your main ability seems a less limited than bonuses that only apply to torture.