You didn't read the Harry Potter books, did you? 

What I'm proposing is that Harry be sent back in time by GK to learn more about the Black Council, nothing else.  Of course, then he ends up playing a role that he didn't know he would. 

For example, Future GK helps send him back specifically to NOT change the past and only observe the BC shenanigans.  And one of the first things he does is accidently bump into PG GK.  PG GK realizes he's from the Future, and threatens to punish him for breaking a law.  Future Harry manages to convince/prove to PG GK that he traveled with Future GK's help and consent.  PG GK lets him go, and as he's departing, Future Harry makes an off-the-cuff comment about giving him a little more detail this time when he warns him about the black magic stuff.  PG GK says, "um, I have no idea what you're talking about".  And Future Harry says "yeah, you tell me there's dark magic being performed in town, and you have me look into it."  To which PG GK says, "First I heard of it."  Which confuses Harry, until he begins to realize that he sets that in motion.  Which then has him worrying about what else he may have already set in motion the first time, but doesn't know what he has to do this time around.  Queue internal dialogue rant about making things difficult for himself.

Thus Harry has to balance not changing anything other than what needs to be changed to match the first time around, while also trying to investigate and learn more about the BC.

Okay, now I see how this is working [and no I didnt read HP - did she do something similiar there?].  I think on superficial reading it works, but once you stop and start to think about it, for me it doesnt.  This is a general problem I have with all time travel [at least all that I've read].

What's to stop Future Cowl from going back into the past and whispering to Past Kumori - And thanks for reminding me to bring some back-up for dealing with Dresden in that alley - did they come in handy!

Then what happens - Kumori tells Cowl about what Future Cowl said.  Cowl brings his army of zombies or ghouls or maybe a Skinwalker [or something] with him to the alley.  They take on Gard and Harry dies in the alley.

No, time travel isn't needed to make it work.  But time travel could be used to explain things in the book that went unexplained which his theory didn't touch on, and could also be the way that Harry finds out about the plot which Knnn spelled out.

Generally using time travel to explain something sounds kind of desperate to me - I dont mind using prescience, precognition - whatever you call it - glimpses of the future, intuition about the future.  That kind of ties in with the magic theme.  But having someone actually travel back in time and interact with it - it just raises all kinds of problems with me.  I guess there's a limit to the amount of belief I'm willing to suspend. 

But if you have time, Im curious.  What problems are you talking about that could be solved with time travel?  Im kind of doubtful there couldnt be a simpler, more believable solution.

ok my bad i have not read the original post but but my point is that harry went back in time because he had to not to prevent an explosion in LC although that is a good thing. but if u need a reason for harry to travel back in time say mab needs the knife but knows she cant hold it for long with out going mad so she has harry ,still her knight and therefore not as strictly bound by the laws, travel back in time where harry informs her of the events that r about to happen she then informs the gatekeeper who tells harry about the black magick happening and sets the whole thing off.  this explains y mab took molly as well but the main reason for it is that harry already did it and that removes your trouble with time travel the reason cowl doesn't do any of those things is he didn't therefor for him to do so would create a rather large paradox

This is exactly why I hate time travel stories.  It gets too confusing and nothing makes sense.

You're assuming that because - as we read the story - these things are happening - that Harry already did them and therefore they are already 'done' and the timeline 'set'.  But that if Cowl were to come back and try to do the same thing - say kill Harry in the alley - it would be changing the timeline because the first time around [as we read the book] - he didnt do it, so coming back and doing it now would mean 'changing' things.  If I understand you correct, this is what you are saying?

But just because we dont see a different [earlier] timeline play out doesnt mean it didnt happen.  It MUST have happened, or future Harry would have no reason to come back into the past [his past, our present] to change it.   So there was an earlier version of the story in that book in which no one came back to stop it and Harry got severely injured in LC explosion.  To prevent that from happening - and to change the past - Harry comes back [in OPs post] to prevent LC from ever exploding.  It doesnt matter whether he interferes directly [the OP] or tells Mab [in your version] and she does it.  The result is the same - it wipes out the old timeline [which we never saw] and substitutes the new one [which is the book we read].

Cowl or someone else could do exactly the same thing.  The only difference is we first read the original timeline - Harry gets rescued by Gard.  And we get to read about how Cowl changed it so that Harry dies.  But both of them are changing the timeline and like I said - where does it stop?  It just creates a mess.  And if Harry can do it, then why not someone else?

Like I said, I just never read a story where it seemed realistic or believeable to me.

Besides, using Knnn's theory there's no need to resort to time travel devices to make sense of the book.

And as I read your post again it could be - sorry - that Im still misunderstanding your point??

Maybe knnn could work on some fine tuning of the "Time Travellin' Harry in PG" theories for me?

The way you set it out, it does make sense and it could fit, but I kind of hope you're wrong  because Im not a great fan of time travel stories.  Ive never read one that I found believeable.

Even in the context of s-f, I have trouble believing the past is something you can go back into and change.  Once you allow that, there is no real present.  I mean, what would stop Cowl from going back in time and preventing the fall of the Red Court?  Or stealing the Book of Kemmler and completing the Darkhaven?  Or coming prepared to attack Gard and hold her off long enough for him to kill Harry?  Im using Cowl as an example, but Im sure he's not the only powerful entity on the BC.

I dont know - I just think once you allow the possibility of changing the past - why wouldnt everybody do it?

Who said she lost in that bargain? Sure it made life more difficult but she can work around that and at the end she will probably the one getting most out of it.

I still dont get it - what bargain exactly would Mab have made? This theory all seems so nebulous compared to Knnn's which clearly spells out what was going on and why.  And it all fits.  That's why I like it.

My objection was that - given what happened to Lea - I cant see Mab making any kind of bargain with the BC.  She wouldnt trust them and she'd be in no mood to make bargains.

Boohyah

I found the Topic that jman101 was referring to.  It's probably the best original theory posted in the past year or so IMO.

I see - so this idea was originally Knnn's?  Well, whoever first came up with it - kudos to you - I think it's great - it explains so much and it all hangs together.

Other things also click in place to support Knnn's theory - the link with the homeless shelter, Molly originally going to meet Crane.  None of this did I pick up when I read it, but once it's pointed out - it all makes sense and it's really clear.

I also like Knnn's idea of Molly being an Outsider-bane.  Yet another reason the BC would want her.  And why they'd go to any lengths to stop her becoming WC.

A corollary of this theory would be that the Gatekeeper, while he might have his own agenda in all this,  can't be a part of the BC.  If he was, he never would have warned Harry there was black magic in Chicago.  Maybe he's not Grey Council, but in his own way he's opposing the BC too.

One more thought - someone in that thread you quoted asked why Mab would have sent all her troops to Summer's borders if she thought BC were planning to attack Arctis Tor.  IMO Mab wanted to know who her enemies were.  The BC has always been rather anonymous/nebulous - working in the shadows.  I think Mab wanted to put faces to them so she'd know exactly who to destroy.  So she took something they really wanted [Molly] and sent her army away to entice the BC [or at least some of them] to come out in the open for once.  It worked to some extent - we know one of the Denarians showed up - he must be one of the major players.  And know she'll know who he is.

I dont think this gamble was as dangerous as it might at first appear.  Others have pointed out -  [1] Arctis Tor was her home and the seat of her power - very unlikely any enemy would have the power to defeat her there and [2] she could have recalled her army in a flash if it proved necessary [which apparently it didnt].

I just love this theory - it explains so much.  So Knnn - take a bow!

I hope Im not doing anything wrong here.  I was looking through some old theads and saw this one and was going to respond but I got a warning message saying it's better to start a new thread.  Im not sure how to do that and still quote from the old thread, so I just cut and paste and tried to use colors to differentiate the posters.

This is jman's original post:

Quote from jman

Re: Uriel and Lash
« Reply #122 on: October 23, 2011, 07:53:03 PM »

   
Quote

Personally, I subscribe to the theory that the attack on Arctis Tor by the Black Council was to try to get Molly back. IIRC, it was a fairly recent theory under the title of something like "Proven Guilty Revisited" on the forums (link). It proposed the idea that the Black Council's entire purpose in PG was to get Molly onto their side. In fact, she would have met a BC operative / pawn, Madrigal Raith at SplatterCon, who could have easily controlled her, had the fetches not showed up. It further theorized that Mab sent the fetches to disrupt the BC's plans by getting Dresden's attention (and that of the White Council), making the BC's plan all the more riskier. As well, the fetches could have been sent to kill Molly (think hobs & The Archive in SmF), hence her being used as the beacon OR to get Dresden to rescue her, discover her talent, and take her on as his apprentice, making her a weapon against the BC. Unfortunately, Mab underestimated just how much the BC wanted Molly (or wanted Molly not to be Dresden's apprentice), and the BC attacked Arctis Tor to get her back (possibly with some bad information on Mab's current condition/health). However, Mab just used them to further her own purpose by retreating, with Molly, into the WellSpring Garden/Prison (I made the name up) that the BC would be very stupid to try to get into, while they cleared her personal defenses out of Dresden's way. So they ran away or got beat back; either way, they weren't around when Dresden stormed in, killed the fetch, and saved Molly. Mab got what she wanted, except for the little bit of fire damage to the fountain of power. She should have had Dresden Insurance.


And this is part of Mira's comments on Jman's post:

This all brings me back to jman 101's theory about the Black Council wanting Molly, that they wanted her as a recruit for their side, but why?  The young Korean kid that loses his head at the beginning of Proven Guilty appeared to have just as much talent to use his mind on others as Molly, why not him? Or was it just that the Wardens caught up to him before the Black Council did?  Actually I do not think so, I do think however that yes, the BC wanted Molly, but not so much as a recruit, but as a way to create divisions in the enemy..  I find it very interesting that Summer was eager to lend a hand in the rescue, though Lea thought it would piss off Winter. That Mab was also present in the Garden and winked at Harry.  Harry tossed the light down the wellspring.

And this is my comments now:

I like jman's theory.  I was never clear on what was really going on in that book, but I assumed we'd find out eventually.  His theory really makes a lot of sense - esp about the BC wanting to turn Molly.  Of course they'd want Molly!  She was halfway there already, she wouldnt need more than a little push and she'd make a great recruit for them because of who she was.  Her family, Harry, Forthill , Sanya - they'd all trust her, let her close.  Wouldnt be suspicious.  Unlike the Korean kid, she had access to some of the BC's worst enemies.  If she'd been trained by them to use her mind control powers, she could control them all.  At the very least push them in the direction the BC wanted them to go.  She'd be worth her weight in gold to the BC.

And it really helps make sense out of Mab's actions too.  Of course she winked at Harry.  He was doing exactly what she wanted him to do.  I have to read it again with this in mind.. 

Thanks jman!  It's a great theory!

Currated in a link in the quote ^-Serack