Woohoo! more sneaky were emu fun    I can't wait to listen.

Living dead is a good idea actually, or maybe a custom power without the rot issue.  They can survive being torn apart if someone puts them together again.  If I remember correctly, the only way to kill one was to tear into pieces and burn them.  Presumably the pieces can still attack you.  In the first book we don't see them do anything that couldn't be justified at the inhuman level.  The later books throw this out and mentions that a vampire could easily tear a tank in half, which is either supernatural or mythic strength.

Having them at low skills except for one or two is a great idea, allows it to be more stompy.


Then again, who cares about their powers being accurate to the books?  Just pick a power level that will allow your players to have the refreshing curb stomp they want!


Edit: also http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Twilight

I envy you for never having read those books.  Sadly I have *shudder* and would be glad to help you.

Sadly a curb stomp won't be possible if you wish to portray them as the were portrayed in the books, they are rather notorious for being ludicrously overpowered in comparison to anything short of a god.  For most of them:  Blood Drinker, Feeding Dependency, Supernatural Strength, Speed, Toughness and Recovery.  Possibly mythic speed as some are described moving faster than human eyes can track.  Inhuman senses for sight, hearing and smell.  Picking up venomous claws is a good idea to represent the fangs and venom.  This venom incapacitates any mortal target with horrendous pain as it converts them into a vampire over three days or so.  Apparently, this can be stopped by sucking the venom out quickly enough. 

Additionally, most gain one extra superpower varying from useless to ludicrously overpowered (which they can apparently magnify even more if they just Believe in themselves hard enough, or if your vampire Mary Sue believes in herself hard enough.)  Such powers can include mind reading, emotion control, immunity to all magic, ability to perfectly see all possible futures, or superhuman compassion...

Just in case they weren't poorly written enough, they also have no weaknesses.  At all...  They do sparkle in sunlight which i would handle as an aspect compel on the off chance it inconveniences them.  Honestly, twilight vampires don't so much feel like vampires so much as generic super humans who drink blood but don't do anything else vampirey.

Like you said, i wouldn't call it a house rule so much as a clarification of the existing rules, but I like it!  There is no reason that reversing the grapple shouldn't be one of the stated options for the one being grappled. 

Thank you for the replies so far!

Swapping a dF for a d4 is almost the same as adding +2 to the roll.  It improved to low end by +2 (-1 to 1), the high end by +3 (1 to 4) with the expected value going up by +2.5.

As such, you could (should you choose) replace practically any mechanic that involves aspects with a die swap, and end up with a similar result.

Yup they were meant to be close.  +2 felt no different than an aspect, while +3 felt like too much per rank.  The d4 is a big advantage for supernatural beings but still leaves the potential of rolling no higher than the highest roll of a fudge die.  That said, while I could replace any aspect mechanic with the die swap, I wanted it to only apply to supernatural powers.  That way superhuman mechanics feel different mechanically as well as in flavor.  So far my group likes it, but my game is still a work in progress so we will see.

Does anything from here appeal to you?

That is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for!  While nothing in there appeals to me specifically, I'm looking to mine ideas off of other magical systems until something clicks. 

First question : Why?
or more exact, there is a perfectly fine system out there with the DFRPG, what is really bothering you in it?
Taking things here and there but not the other things is like putting the wheels of a monstertruck on the blue bettle - it creates all sorts of new problems.

We would need to know why you want to change stuff and why and to what effect before really helping in that way is really possible.

Bye
CottbusFiles - who is really into running games as RaW as possible

Fair point, I was a bit vague about what i was looking for and why 

First, the magic system in the DFRPG works fine in that system, and replicates the magic in the books brilliantly, but my game system is very different.  While the DFRPG is the closest published game system to mine, which is why I'm posting here for advice, they are mechanically dissimilar enough that mechanics which work in one won't always apply to the other.  Most notably, stress and consequences work differently.  The Dresden magic system is on the cusp of being overpowered to begin with and would be more so in my game.  I could probably convert it to my system with a bit of work, but there are other concerns.

The second concern being complexity.  I don't care for numbery games.  I like simplicity and as little dice rolling as possible, without cheaping out on depth (something Fate does very well overall.)  DFRPG magic always felt a little bit over designed (Which makes sense given the books focus on magic.)  Nearly a fourth of YS is devoted to describing magic, and thaumaturgy is particularly roll heavy.  I would prefer a simpler, more intuitive magic system.

The third issue involves the setting.  While my setting uses elements of the DF, (One of the PC's is the Summer Knight,) it is not a Dresden Files game.  it incorporates elements of Jim Butcher, Brandon Sanderson, Brent Weeks, Larry Correia, Patrick Rothfuss, Andrea Alton, John Lindqvist, and many other authors, along with my own material.  I love the dresden files magic system, and I've incorporated elements of it into mine, but it isn't quite what I'm looking for.

Dresden Files magic Stresses two primary separations: Power vs. Control and Speed vs. Complexity.

In my setting, magic has so far established no separation between Evocation and Thaumaturgy.  A skilled pyromancer can attempt complex actions using heat as much as a necromancer can attempt to animate a corpses hand instantly to grab someones ankle.  Likewise, while magic is certainly dangerous, there is no danger of calling up more power than you can control with normal magic, or at least control well enough to prevent it from harming you as it comes out unless you do so deliberately by using a mental consequence to assist you.  Of course it will still kill you if you, say, burn down a building you are standing in.

instead, the distinctions are between Sorcery (focused practitioners,) Theurgy (Sponsored Magic,) Natural Powers (Telekinetic, Pyrokinetic, etc,) and True Magic (Full Blown Wizard.)

Natural powers are a re skinned version of magic with a few differences.  Its effects are not disrupted by salt, it doesn't harm technology unless you want it to, and when you apply force, it always pushes back.  So a telekinetic who pushes on something heavier than them gets thrown back, a kinetomancer who does the same simply fails to move the obstacle. 

Theurgy I already have a system for, which can kill you if you draw more power than you can handle.  It is far more elemental and primal since it is shaped by the beings granting it and tends to take on more traditional forms like hellfire, winter ice, or earth magic. 

That leaves me needing a system for magic and natural powers.  I already have a refinement system, so I only need to develop the base system of how the magic works mechanically. 

Some established 'schools' of magic: Necromancy, Pyromancy, Cryomancy, Transmutation, Psychomancy, Sympathy, etc. 

It is a Pseudo scientific system that does rely on physical principles, while still being able to represent nearly every type of magic from folklore and fantasy fiction (Much like the DF does.)


Most importantly, I want magic to take appropriate skills into account, while also taking discipline into account.  So, for example, blasting someone at range uses the ranged skill while still using discipline.  A biomancer uses magic to enhance a punch to point it can break through a brick wall, but their discipline is still a factor along with unarmed.  (There is no conviction skill.)

Here is what I'm thinking so far:

Sorcery:(____________) -1 refresh can be purchased up to three times for three different types of magic before taking true magic.

True Magic: -4

Theurgy: (______________) -2

Anyone who wants to do anything significant with magic needs to also purchase the ability to store Anima or mana or chi or ki or whatever you want to call it.  Every point of refresh spent would buy you two? anima points in the blank stress track representing how much anima extremely specialized training enables you to store at a time.  Every point of Anima spent allows you to replace a fudge die with a d4 on a magical skill roll, and the amount that can be spent at a time is dependent on your discipline.  Perhaps a discipline of 0 or lower requires spending mental stress to use anima?

Anima is primarily generated by life processes, and living things bleed more while experiencing strong emotions.  The mage's own life processes will eventually regenerate their anima supply at about one point per hour, but they can charge faster by feeding on nearby power.  By meditating for an hour and making an intelligence or lore roll they may draw as many points as their roll allows.  If they need to recharge RIGHT NOW, then they can take a mental consequence and a full action and restore an amount equal to the consequences value (assuming that there is enough ambient power to draw from.)

(Someone with Sorcery or true magic but no Anima reserve is a minor talent, capable of mundane effects, but nothing more impressive.  The group has met a Scottish necromancer with the power to... bruise apples, and even then only when he has a minute to focus)


Anyway, if you have read through my ramblings this far thank you.  I'm posting this both to organize my ideas, and see if this wise bunch has anything to add.  I figured I can't be the first to work on alternate fate magic systems, and any resources or ideas are welcome.  Thanks for reading!

Hello all, I've been lurking stealthily behind the scenes, but now it is time to once more rear my ugly head and pose a question.

About a year ago, shortly after getting into tabletop RPGs in college, I designed my own home brew setting and game system to run an urban fantasy game.  The Setting was heavily influenced by The Dresden Files, and the game system was loosely based on WoD (the only system I had any familiarity with.)  The game continued with the mechanics improving over time, and when i discovered Fate through the DFRPG I immediately loved the simplicity, narrative mechanics, and overall elegance.  That said, there were a number of small things that irked me and i wound up rebuilding my system from the ground up using FATE and the DFRPG as a base.  While my system and the DFRPG are very different, the mechanics are similar enough that anything which would work in the DFRPG would work in may game and vice versa.  Therefore this felt like the perfect forum to ask for design advice.

With that bit of background, here is my problem.  I've written a powers list that I, and my group, are fairly satisfied with, and has held up to play testing so far.  However, I am not wholly satisfied with the magic system I worked out for it, or the DFRPG system and would like to hear any ideas for alternate magic system mechanics that you guys had been kicking around. 

Major differences to keep in mind:

*Most powers that enhance a mortal ability to a supernatural level work by replacing one or more fudge dice with a d4.  If I could incorporate that into the magic system it would grant a greater feeling of power unity.  (The ranks for speed and might powers are Superhuman, Monstrous, and Legendary.  So a character with superhuman speed can use a d4 in place of one of his fudge dice on anything he can justify speed aiding in like attacks or initiative.  Combining two powers of the same level with something you can justify both speed and might helping in allows a d6 instead.  Likewise Dominate adds a d4 to social rolls, with some added fluff rules attached letting it break some of the unique social combat rules.)

*There is no defensive roll.  Instead attacks strike the stress tracks directly.  Physical stress is athletics +2, Social is Empathy +2, and Mental is Discipline +2.  Consequences are not static and are determined by Strength, Presence, and Intelligence skills.  The maximum stress a mortal can achieve with a stunt is 8 and the minimum is 0.  The maximum stress absorption a mortal can gain per consequence is 7,8,9,10,11 and the minimum is 1,1,1,2,3.  Supernatural beings can go beyond that.

*Skills range from -2 to +4 defaulting at 0.  there are 21 skills, mostly similar to the DFRPG skills.

*Many powers have different refresh costs, but that has more to do with them working differently than in the DFRPG.  Any power from the DFRPG could be fit into my game with little modification at the same cost.  (For example, the Flight power in my game costs -3 instead of the -1 of the wings power from DF.  Not because the system is all that different, but because A. I felt it was to inexpensive, B. There is a perfect landing power at -1, and an epic leap power at -2 which are largely pointless when upgraded to flight, and C. It is more powerful in my game.)

I tentatively plan to incorporate some kind of 'mana' system, likely purchased with refresh, which will use a blank stress track My character sheets have below the others. 

I would like to design a system which allows magic to complement existing skills, while still incorporating appropriate mental skills.  Such as a ranged magical attack using the ranged skill But perhaps with discipline determining how much "Mana" can be used per round and mental consequences (determined by intelligence,) determining how much power can be drawn back into the body quickly from the life and emotions around you.


For anyone who didn't want to read all of that, I'm looking to hear thoughts on alternate mechanics for magic systems that are compatible with the DFRPG and therefore likely compatible with my own fate game.  Any thoughts you have had kicking around about the subject are welcome! 

Thanks, I appreciate the help!

I tend to agree with you about my undead power, I didn't think that one through well enough.  The only reasons I went with such a low cost were because I tend to feel living dead is overpriced given its negatives and should be (+0,) and I figure that those environmental factors were sufficiently uncommon as to not be a cost issue.  That said, in hindsight I completely agree with you. 

I figure I'll be better off eliminating the environmental resistance, increasing the price, and making the power's primary trapping be no death result being permanent without satisfying the catch or decapitation.  That way environmental factors like extreme cold could still freeze them into a vampiricicle, but allow them to be defrosted with no permanent harm done which fits their flavor better.

(In the events of the game so far we have had grey court vampires stabbed in the heart, telekinetically tearing off their own burning skin with magic, and dashing their entrails out on a mountaintop whilst flying over it in gale force winds, in a draconic beastform, trying to avoid the Erlking's Wild Hunt (the PC's were riding him at the time,) all without any more than incapacitation until they could heal.  Since they don't look like rotting cadavers I figured a custom power was in order.)

So here is the revised power:

(-2) Undead (custom power:)
   *No Death result is permanent unless taken out by one of their catches, or their head is removed from their body.  The character no longer ages.  This power must be linked to a catch.
   *No need to take in traditional food, water, or air.
   *Unlike the Living Dead power, an Undead character still heals at the same rate as a mortal (or faster when combined with recovery powers.)

Additionally, having Undead require a link to a catch means I can drop inhuman toughness as a requirement of the template and still keep the +4 catch's full refund, bringing the total template cost for a starting vampire to -4, and well within playable ranges even at lower power levels.

I also realized human guise was appropriate to the template:
(+0) Human Guise: Grey Court vampires appear as normal, if somewhat pale humans under most circumstances.  However, when they use any of their superhuman powers, their features warp into a more monstrous visage, their eyes develop an eye shine, and their claws and fangs appear.