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Messages - ironpoet

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16
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 07:41:29 PM »
By your rules, wizards cannot take consequences to do more powerful actions.  This is severely limiting and goes totally against the source material.

I think that's a fair criticism.  At a minimum, let's make the alternate rule official.  A Wizard can take a consequence to add that many shifts to the Spell Power.  That would make the maximum house ruled attack below 16 shifts.

As for how it's limiting, imagine this.  (Note - I will add all refinement bonuses to the numbers I give in these examples)

If I have a wizard with 6 discipline and 4 conviction, using your rules, the most he could ever cast is a 14 shift attack.  Max. (without aspect use).

That same wizard using the book rules could roll a +4 for his discipline like in the above example, but then raise the shifts of power by 6, taking a minor mental consequence and crossing off the "4" in his mental stress track.
This would be a 20 shift attack.  That's a big difference.

First of all, I calculate only a 19 shift attack for the Regular Wizard (1 Mental Stress = Weapon:4, 4 Mental Stress = Weapon:7, 4 Mental Stress+Mild Consequence = Weapon:9)

Secondly, even if your calculation are correct, I'm calling shenanigans on comparing based on perfect rolls.  The Regular Wizard who attempted a Weapon:10 attack is almost guaranteed to have between 1 and 8 shifts worth of fallout or backlash, unless you want to start adding Fate Points into the calculation.

With a rote attack spell, the Regular Wizard could safely cast two Weapon:6 attacks (for 3 mental stress each), for an average attack of 12 shifts, and then two weaker spells (somewhere between two reliable Weapon:2 Spells for an average attack of 8 shifts, or risk fallout/backlash with a Weapon:5 attack and a Weapon:4 attack).

The Houseruled Wizard could safely cast four Weapon:4 attacks for an average attack of 10 shifts.  It's either a tie or the Regular Wizard wins by a few shifts if they want to gamble with Backlash.

Orrrr.... what if an enemy warlock creates a magic block on a doorway that the wizard character needs to go through to save a little girl?  If that block is a 5, there is no way that a wizard using your rules with a 4 conviction could get through it.

Using the book's rules, that wizard could go up one or two stress in his stress track and make his shifts of power potent enough to counterspell the block.

Wait... a Block only cares about the total shifts of the attack, not the Weapon value, right.  So a 10 shift evocation will blow down a Block:5, regardless of whether it's a +8, Weapon:2 spell or a +5 Weapon:5 spell.  Or have I seriously missed something in the books?

17
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 05:24:04 PM »
Enchanting

While enchanters are powerful, I'm not really convinced that they are overpowered.   While they are very strong on the defense, their inability to get bonuses to hit like evocators can limit their offensive ability, and their limited uses clamps down on thier non-combat utility some too.

While it's possible to build an evocation offense, enchanted item defense character it actually takes a lot of your character focus to get there, meaning you can't do some other interesting stuff.

I agree, and I think the Enchanteding house rules either need to be tweaked or thrown out entirely.  I know there was some concern about crafters, even considering their lack of to-hit bonuses, and I wanted to make Specialization more useful, since it lost its connection to Thaumaturgy (which is another potential problem).

Since all elements are 'equal' wouldn't a good justification let you apply your already useful evocation specialty to power up whatever enchanted item you want?

I suspect there would be a few enchanted items where that just wouldn't make sense.  Could you create a tracking item using any of the elements?  I could describe the effect as something elemental (a candle flame flickers in the direction of your target, etc.) but I don't know how being "good" at Fire would make me better at tracking.  The same goes for conjuration, summoning, transformation, etc.

For defensive and offensive enchanted items, definitely.  But in that case I think it makes sense.

18
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 05:15:14 PM »
People can run games however they want.  However, I am a bit surprised that you're surprised that the overall tone of replies you've gotten have not been overwhelmingly positive.

I certainly didn't expect overwhelmingly positive.  And I certainly expected some negative response (or simply lack of response).  But given all the posts about "How does Magic work?", "Wizards are overpowered.", "How much stress does X cost?" I was hoping for at least a few "Hey, that's interesting" replies.

As you said, though, ::shrug::  :)

If you don't want to deal with magic, or you don't want wizards to nuke, just don't allow them in your campaign.  Don't gimp wizards.  That really goes against the spirit of the game in my mind.

I still can't wrap my head around how a Weapon:6, Attack+8 (that can be upgraded to Weapon:10 with a moderate consequence, etc.) is considered gimped.

I'd say that you're a better optimizer than I am (just based on the posts of yours that I've read).  What kind of attacks can an Invoker (Evocation, Refinement x3) reliably cast that make them less gimped?  It's possible that I'm underestimated how much this is nerfing Wizards, since I didn't think it made that big a difference in their power level.  (My own, non-optimized, Discipline 5, Conviction 3 character can't do nearly as well, for example.)

I mean, Harry was able to nuke and destroy a demon in one shot in SF.... at Chest Deep level.  I would say that wizards are supposed to be powerful... and complicated.  The complication is part of what added the immersion for me.

I'm happy to disagree about the complicated part.  The complication was getting in the way of immersion for me, personally.

19
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 05:04:26 PM »
Thaumaturgy:
Some of your complaints sound a bit like complaining about the contacts skill: 

You never roll it in combat, and it's always some guy who tells you stuff.

The 'interesting' parts of thaumaturgy are whatever zany stuff you do to get enough complexity to cast the spell, not the actual ritual itself.  If works the same way in the books, almost all of the page count in thaumaturgy is spent on the declarations (blue play-doh, ring of barbed wire, long cleansing shower, and do on).  That's the interesting part.

I think I agree with you (unless I've missed something), but that was the reason for these house rules in the first place.  There are complex rules for gathering the power to cast a spell (after the zany preparation stuff has already been done).  But once you reach +5 Control, those rules never get used.  And there's no real difference between a Wizard with +7 Divination Control and a Wizard with +5 Divination Control.

To put it a different way, under the current rules, there's no real reason to build something like "Little Chicago" to help with Divination spells.

The house rules still require all the zany prep work if you want to cast something more complicated than your Lore+4, or if you want to cast something more complex than Lore-4 without risking backlash or fallout.  But once you've done all the interesting prep work, you just roll (or don't bother, if you've already got enough shifts) and you're done.

20
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 04:17:09 PM »
The wizard can only do his stuff 4-5 times per combat. The assassin can do his stuff for as many bullets he has - at least twice as long. That is why wizards have more power; because they got much lower endurance.

Sure, but they still have more power.  They're just packing metaphorical missiles instead of metaphorical nuclear bombs.  And your Lara Croft character could take out a Wizard under the regular rules just as easily as under these house rules.

How often does the 4-5 spell/combat limitation actually come up in play?  I would say it should definitely be an issue, but not every combat.
How often is the assassin without their guns and specialized ammunition?  (How often do they get stolen, hexed, etc.)  I would say the answers to both questions would be similar.

To be clear, I'm not trying to make a game of rock-paper-scissors, or "My character is stronger than your character" here.  I'm just trying to defend against the notion that Wizards would be "gimped" under these house rules, which makes them sound like they are weak and/or uninteresting.

PS:
The complexity of the magic system is because magic is a quarter of the whole game; there's stunts, skills, powers and magic. The rules about spells, rituals and items do not refer specifically to evocation/thaumaturgy as powers but all magic types out there (which are more than a dozen).

I'm not sure I'm following the argument here, so let me see if I understand what you're saying...  The rules for Magic should be complex because they are important to the game?  That doesn't make any sense to me.  And which other magic types are you referring to?  Sponsored Magic?  If so, I thought these house rules applied equally well to them as they did to Wizardly evocation/thaumaturgy.

21
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 04:03:33 PM »
Thanks for the detailed feedback!

Was it your intention to remove the 'split' in specializations and just have them effect the power of the spell?  And only focus items effect the control/to hit roll?

Yes, that was intentional.  I wanted to distinguish between Specialization and Focus Items a bit more, and it prevents doubling up Specializations and Focus Items into one unstoppable Targetting roll.

What exactly does adding duration to a maneuver get you, since maneuvers applied with a skill last for the scene unless an action is taken to remove them.

It does the same thing adding duration currently does for a maneuver spell, but I admit that's never been 100% clear.  My take is that a sticky Aspect is enforced by the spell for its duration, and afterwards its difficulty to remove becomes Mediocre (+0)

Let's say I want to blind you with a bright light.
I've got discipline 5, conviction 5, and a +1 (control?) focus item.  I do the flashy thing.  You try to resist with your alertness with the justification that. while you might be momentarily blinded, you can still sense where things are. 
I roll (+, -, _, _) on the fudge dice for at attack total of 6.  Do you compare your alertness with the attack/control roll (6) or against the power of the spell (5)?

Let's assume you fail in your defense and are blinded

Then, your action rolls around, you decide to "rub your eyes to get the spots out of them" and roll alertness again.  Is the target number supposed to be 5 (the strength of the spell)?

- You would defend against the Attack/Control roll (6) to avoid getting the Aspect/Free Tag in the first place.  This represents the difficulty to avoid getting blinded in the first place (or grabbed by vines, choked by smoke, etc.)
- For the duration of the spell (typically one exchange), the target to remove the Aspect would be the strength of the spell (5).  This represents the difficulty to escape the blindness (or vines, etc.) once it has affected you.
- After the spell expires, the target to remove the Aspect would be Mediocre (0).

I think that's the same way that Evocation maneuvers works under the normal rules (at least, that's how I intepret them), but I admit it's never been crystal clear to me.

So it's your intention to remove 'power' from block and instead have the block based on the 'control' roll?  This is sort of a bad idea, as it makes control an even better proposition. 

To be honest, the new rules for Blocking were the ones I was the least comfortable with.  I couldn't figure out a good way to combine Control and Spell Power.  So ultimately I just made the Evocation Block skill work the same as any other Block skill in the game.  But I'd be open to other suggestions.

Right now, control is great on the attack, but you need both control and power on the block.  This makes a character built for something like control 7, power 4 not ideal on the defense.  Whereas, in your rule change, control 7, power 4 guy is still great at defending.

Could you give a quick example of how a Control 7, Power 4 character is worse at Blocking than a Control 4, Power 7 character?  Wouldn't the Power focused character still need Control in order to cast a powerful Block?

Also a Wizard would still want a high Conviction in order to (a) have enough stress slots to cast spells and (b) cast larger, zone-wide spells.  And they would still want to Specialize in order to create more powerful Defensive enchanted items.

And while I think your compel for fallout or backlash rule looks alright, I think your previous rules make it much less likely for wizards to miss than the regular rules.

You lost me here... I believe a Wizard's targetting roll can be maxed out more under the old rules than these house rules (since Specialization and Focus Items could stack).  Why is missing less likely than the regular rules?

22
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 03:40:38 PM »
I guess I just don't see any need to weaken casters at all when they already have such easily exploitable weaknesses.  ::shrug::

I don't have any problem with Wizard spell power either, but I know that other posters have complained about it.

My overall intent was to streamline/simplify the Magic system, which was costing me too many mental steps per exchange (compared to every other Power).  In the process, magic becomes a little less abuseable for power gamers, so I thought that was a selling point as well.

23
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 24, 2011, 03:36:47 PM »
Evocation and Thaumaturgy cost a whopping total of -6 refresh and require high skills. They are supposed to be powerful. But the changes you're attempting to make are gimping casters in comparison to everything else. Let's compare a same-cost configuration for a mortal (supposedly the weakest) and see what happens;

True Mortal assassin, -6 refresh for 8 stunts:
Way of the Gunslinger (+1 rolls to handguns of american make), Shot on the Run, Guns Akimbo (as off-hand weapon training), rapid reload, shoot and move, Occultist (Magical Countermeasures), Lethal Accuracy (ignore up to 2 armor), Stalk the Supernatural (+2 stealth vs nonhuman, nonmortal enemies). He's wielding dual Desert Eagles and has prepared special ammunition (silver, cold iron, incendiaries, hollowpoints full of ghost dust or holy oil) which he can rapid reload. He has guns 5, Stealth 5, Lore 4.
Attacks: rolls at +6, weapon 5, armor piercing 2, can be tailored to satisfy catch of lycanthropes, fey, fire-weak undead, ghosts and demons. All defense rolls at +6. Plus really good stealth and mobility.

First of all, that's a pretty solid build.  Nicely done!  And, honestly, I don't have any problem with combat-focused mortals being deadly, even to Wizards.

On the other hand, Thaumaturgy isn't really a combat skill, so if we're going to do a combat skill comparison, I think it makes more sense to only use Evocation.  Here's a quick build:

Pure Evoker, -6 refresh for Evocation and 3 Refinements:
Evocation (+1 Earth Magic, +1 Earth Focus Item), Refinement 1 (+1 Fire Magic, +1 Earth Magic), Refinement 2 (+2 Earth Focus), Refinement 3 (+7 Stealth Item, +7 Defensive Item)
He has Discipline 5, Conviction 4, Lore 4.  Final Specialization: +2 Earth, +1 Fire.  Final Focus Item: +3 Earth
Attacks: Earth Magic: rolls at +8, weapon 6. Can cast a Block at +8 or use +7 Defense 1/session (or reduce strength for more uses).  +7 Stealth Item 1/session (or reduce strength for more uses).  He still rolls at +5 without his focus item, and his weapons can't be hexed.

They're both pretty deadly, and they legitimately have different skill sets.  But I still don't think the Wizard is gimped in comparison.

24
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 23, 2011, 08:14:37 PM »
It seems like these house rules would really gimp casters.

How so?  A Wizard with Conviction +4 and Discipline +4, Fire Specialization +1, and a +2 Fire Focus Item is casting Weapon:5 Fireballs with Legendary (+6) Accuracy.  That's not a particularly optimized character, and it's still a more powerful attack than most other builds can produce.

I'll grant that it weakens Wizards a bit (intentionally), but they hardly seem gimped.  (Unless I'm totally misunderstanding the terminology.)

25
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 23, 2011, 07:29:36 PM »
Are there any other thoughts about these House Rules?

It seems like some of the most common complaints on this board are about:
- How overpowered Wizards are compared to other characters
- How overpowered Crafters are compared to other characters
- How thaumaturgy is boring mechanically (i.e. it can't be used in combat, and it never gets rolled outside of combat) or
- How thaumaturgy makes most other skills redundant (since you can replicate them with a spell)

I think these changes would fix all of those issues, while still leaving Magic as a powerful, versatile, and dramatic aspect of the game.  But I'm not sure if they need tweaking or not.

On the other hand, if you think these rules would be totally boring and you'd never use them, I'd be interested in hearing why you think they're boring!

26
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 07:11:41 PM »
Right, I forgot that it was a compel. I feel a little better about that, but I could see some people taking advantage by simply opting fallout regularly. Then again I suppose that the GM would be perfectly justified in making that fallout pretty brutal.

Yeah, I expect Fallout would most player's default choice, but I think I'm okay with that.  When a Wizard cuts loose, things should start blowing up around them!

27
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:43:31 PM »
One thing that I noticed right away is that Fallout does not seem to equal backlash. Seems to me that backlash is almost guaranteed to take a caster out, since (even though we aren't adding shifts) we're still dealing with weapon 4-6 attacks.

I forgot to add the caveat that a Wizard can limit the strength of their Attack spells.

It's true, if you're throwing around Weapon:6 spells and you absolutely can't afford Fallout (for example, there are innocent Mortals around) then you may have to take a moderate consequence and eat the backlash.  Otherwise, you can either (a) pay a Fate point to buy out of the compel, (b) cast weaker spells so you can survive the backlash, or (c) make sure you don't miss.

I admit, I'm not sure if this is a feature or a bug.

28
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:35:08 PM »
Crafting


The Crafting rules are mostly unchanged, with the following exceptions:

  • There are no Crafting specializations or Focus Items.
  • Add the highest relevant Specialization to the Strength of an Item.

A Wizard with Lore +3 and Specialization: Earth +1 could create an Enchanted Item that created a +4 Block (or Armor:2)


Philosophy
The crafting rules were already pretty streamlined, but this will hopefully balance them a little bit against the new Evocation/Thaumaturgy rules.

29
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:33:23 PM »
Thaumaturgy

Stress
All thaumatrugy actions cost 1 Mental Stress.

  • Difficulty:
      Calculate difficulty for a spell using the same guidelines as before.
  • Casting The Spell:
      Roll Lore + Focus Item
      Target = Difficulty of Spell
  • Timing:
      Casting a thaumaturgical spell takes one exchange.  On the other hand, tagging/invoking enough Aspects to cast the spell successfully may take a bit longer.

Alternate Rule: The player can take a consequence to add that many shifts to the Casting roll.


Fallout/Backlash:
If you miss the Target, the GM can choose to Compel your High Aspect to cause Fallout or Backlash.
  • Fallout effects are up to the GM, and should be influenced by the spell strength.  (The spell hits bystanders nearby. The spell adds a Scene aspect. etc.)
  • Backlash means you take physical or mental stress equal to the Difficulty of the spell.

Alternate Rule: If Compelled by the GM, the player can choose whether they want Fallout or Backlash.

Note that "Thaumaturgy at the Speed of Evocation" is redundant under these rules.

Philosophy
I discovered, while playing, that Thaumaturgy just wasn't that interesting to me.  Once my Discipline roll was over +5, there was never a good reason to actually roll when casting a spell.  And once the +5 limit was reached, there was never any reason to improve beyond that.  Under these rules, even someone with Superb (+5) Lore can only cast a +1 Difficulty spell reliably.  So creating focus items (i.e. "Little Chicago", etc.) and doing ritual prep work (maneuvering/declaring Aspects) is necessary in order to cast a spell safely.

This also means that a Wizard can't just casually build up power for a 100-shift "Make me a God" spell.

30
DFRPG / Re: [House Rules] A (Slightly) Streamlined Magic System
« on: March 22, 2011, 06:32:49 PM »
Evocation

Stress
All evocation actions cost 1 Mental Stress.

  • Attack:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
      Strength = Conviction + Specialization
        Reduce Strength by 2 for each Zone affected
        Caster can choose to limit the Spell Strength
  • Maneuver:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
      Strength = Conviction + Specialization
      Difficulty to Remove Aspect = Strength
        Reduce Difficulty by 1 for each Exchange added
        Reduce Difficulty by 2 for each Zone affected
  • Block:
      Roll Discipline + Focus Item
  • Counterspell:
      Treated as Thaumaturgy
  • Rote Spell:
      Removed

Alternate Rule: The player can take a consequence to add that many shifts to Attack/Maneuver/Block Strength.


Fallout/Backlash:
If you miss, the GM can choose to Compel your High Aspect to cause Fallout or Backlash.
  • Fallout effects are up to the GM, and should be influenced by the spell strength.  (The spell hits bystanders nearby. The spell adds a Scene aspect. etc.)
  • Backlash means you get hit with whatever you tried to cast (assume zero extra shifts and no defense roll).

Alternate Rule: If Compelled by the GM, the player can choose whether they want Fallout or Backlash.


Philosophy
The main intent here is to streamline Evocation a little bit, to make it play more like the other skills/powers in the game.  This also slightly limits Evocation power, so that it's not quite as overpowered.  And since the risk of Fallout/Backlash is greater, it forces a Wizard to be much more careful about the magic they sling around.

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