Here is why I think the highlighted section may be wrong.  Nicodemus believes God is going to lose.  He said words to the effect that because God believes in love, he's going to lose.  Nicodemus has some sort of end game.  His end game may be to either rise to a god himself, or to ally with someone who will be a god, or is already a god.  It's also possible he has a plan that will force Hades to give up his daughter.

What I'm saying is I don't believe she is actually sacrificing herself for some greater good.  I believe that the plan is Nicodemus will come back for her, and she will rise again, and be by his side.  Her sacrifice will be a temporary one, and for their own power, and not some greater good.

You’re talking about Nic. I’m talking about Deirdre. She is her own person. I think you’re conflating the two.

Deirdre became aware of the universe’s peril. Deirdre acquired information regarding a way to avoid said peril. Deirdre decided she would sacrifice herself to enact the method. Deirdre committed to and engaged in a selfless act to save the universe.

Nic may have his own counsel, method and motive, but that’s Nic, not Deirdre. Think of the potential for irony if she came back with the jesus mantle and they were at odds, thus proving “The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men Gang aft agley”.

On the topic of Nic, he may be right that the god mantle holder’s plans are incorrect. Maybe he would do a better job in that role? However, more irony potential, the mantle may be one that moulds the holder such as the winter court roles and thus, in the long term, Nic would become what he fought against through his own actions.

Thomas and Justine are a very creepy, codependent couple. And, Thomas is like a nerdy guy’s idea of a cool guy.

Maybe Thomas and Eb will kill each other in the next book. Thomas will kill him with his sex vampire moves and Eb will level his death curse. And, without her codependent anchor, Justine will go insane and drown like Ophelia. Now I write this, I’m positive it will happen just so!

Believing in a cause does not make the cause, by itself, good. And, as for eternally punishing someone for an extended lifetime of evil acts that is called accountability.

My point about her sincerity was that she was speaking honestly and openly about herself and her goals. She is not a witless puppet, but a willing participant in giving her life to help save the universe. That she may not have all information is rather beside the point. There and then, she is selfless and willing to sacrifice for the greater good.

On eternal torture and punishment- it’s madness. It’s cruelty unbound. It’s straight vengeance porn. It’s a bizarrely cruel concept for humans to have invented (though, quite effective as a means of control). As the perpetrator of this cruelty, Hades is one of the most twisted characters we’ve met so far in the series. Imagine yourself in such a role, doling out cruelty, pain, torture, unending anguish day after day for years, decades, centuries. What would that make you? I know how the story handled it, but the story indulges the fantasy. The practical reality of such a thing is beyond ugly, however. 

Rising from death, and defeating sin by rising to save humankind is not the same as dying to save the universe as you describe.  I also seriously doubt that she did it purely as a selfless act.  To think she did it to be selfless goes against everything we have seen from the Denarians to this point.

She told Dresden that she was trying to save the universe. I think she was unusually candid in her talk with Dresden, revealing herself a bit. She was on the cusp of ultimate sacrifice and so, I think, open. Her selfless sacrifice was for the greater good as she saw it. There are plenty of stories about redemption and change. Why can’t Deirdre’s be one? I don’t actually think this mantle acquisition will happen, but it is parallel adjacent to the myth and it’s not impossible that this sort of selfless sacrifice for the universe is how the jesus mantle is acquired.

And, it could be a fun twist if Deirdre came back as the jesus mantle holder. That would put Nic in the role of the father figure in the trinity. Plenty of posters here predict some sort of redemption for Nic, so why not? It’s not like the mythical figures who have held roles in this construct are fluffy bunny good creatures, after all. They did plenty of petty stuff, wholesale slaughter and nastiness.

Also, keep in mind this is all taking place in a fantasy universe where all this myth and magic is real, not our universe.

No....  She didn't die for people.  She did it for her father.

She gave her life to save the universe. Also, the jesus mantle bearer’s “father” was involved in sending him on that mission as well.

   This forum is small community of various individuals that share at least one bit of commonality, an appreciation for Jim Butcher's work. Though, we do so in different ways. I, myself, fixate on the unsolved mysteries of the series; others have their own interests. We share what we think and what we like while being receptive to what others think and like about the works.
   I cannot speak for others; but, I often develop strong attachments to other fictional works. I love early Stephen King, I have read a large number of Dragonlance books, and I have been a comic book fan for over 30 years. Do I visit forums related to these works? Nope. Why? Because I do not get the same communal feeling that I get here. In the series, the first time that Harry walked into Mac's bar, he felt as if he had rediscovered an old home. My feelings are similar to that feeling.
   If you don't get "the appeal of this series that induces the great interest;" then why visit the forums?   I am here because I get the appeal. I think that many other members do as well. But, hey, the ratio of male members to female members is 29 to 1 or so the statistic center states. So, "maybe it is a guy thing?" Though, the person with the most posts here is female. So, I could be mistaken. I often am mistaken; but, I still keep trying to make sense of things. Did this help?

Interesting. Thanks for the reply. I was just curious if this was a main focus for the people really into it or if they were likewise into a lot of different stuff.

I post here mainly when I have insomnia. you might notice my posts are mainly in the middle of the night (EU time). My husband snores LOUDLY and incessantly at various times and I cannot sleep well then. So, I read stuff on the iPad in bed. Probably 99% of my posts are from an iPad while in bed wishing I could sleep, so be impressed with my iPad typing skills!

I 'nerd' a few different things with my free time. I loved the new Twin Peaks season (raidem, if you like overlapping timelines, alternate realities converging, and bizarre causal loops, you will love this series and the film, Fire Walk With Me). I also currently enjoy the new Star Trek serial. I listen to and read various stuff about philosophy and neuroscience these days. I am planning my Jul (like christmas, but more pagan) dinner plans for the family as I cook a huge dinner each year and reading a lot of recipes always trying to get new ideas. Also, I listen to a lot of music of the dark electro, cold wave types.

So, posting here is sort of a 3.00am enterprise for me. I haven't read the books in a couple of years now. I am not interested in Butcher's comic books, children's serials or the new serial (read the first one and the writing was so bad that I thought it was meant to be his book for children). Hopefully, I'll enjoy the new book in the DF serial when it arrives.

Nic may want to be a god, but it was his daughter who died for us. Maybe she got the Jesus mantle and we will see her again in future books?

Plus he has killed all his girlfriends, or at least tried to.

Granted Luccio wasn't his girlfriend yet when he did it, and there were extenuating circumstances both there and with Susan, but damn. Would not want to be Murphy!

Haha! Good point! And, Lucio was mind-controlled into a non-consensual relationship with him! And, Dresden is constantly bringing up Molly’s traing bra. What a creep!

Wardenferry, what I’m saying about Murphy and Dresden being a terrible couple comes down to looking at it through a normal woman’s point of view.

Dresden was not someone she really felt much for early on. She was a successful, career orientated woman and Dresden was a weird poor guy who lived in a shitty basement with no electricity. He acted like a complete whackadoodle from her point of view. She had zero reason to be interested in him. Also, he’s not described as particularly attractive as far as I recall.

Midway through the story, she learns more about him, but he’s still this bizarre outsider who lies to her regularly. And, he didn’t get richer or better looking.

Later, coming to where we are now, his life is in such a state of ruin that, even with her loss of career and sense of identity (“I’m a cop, Harry”), it’s still a terrible idea to get involved with him just because she’s used to him. He is living at the extreme edge now more than ever. There is really no future there for her; just drama, trauma and death on all sides. She’s in her mid or late forties now? There was never any real passion between them. This getting together out of comfort or being used to him (settling essentially), I could see, if not for the death and destruction on all sides.

So, no, I don’t see Murphy’s reason for it. Dresden’s, yes. Murphy’s, no.

The Molly thing just seems like pure fantasy like Andi and Butters.