ParanetOnline

The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: RobReece on May 24, 2023, 01:16:37 AM

Title: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: RobReece on May 24, 2023, 01:16:37 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed before or not.

Will the lack of Murphy's body be used to keep Rudy from being held accountable for her death?

Bradley wasn't a witness to the shooting,  Butters was, but I don't think he'd carry the same weight as a detective, especially given how he's viewed by his boss.

Secondary question,  does Waldo still work for the Coroner's Office, sorry, the Forensic Institute?
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on May 24, 2023, 01:56:20 AM
I don't know if this has been discussed before or not.

Will the lack of Murphy's body be used to keep Rudy from being held accountable for her death?

Bradley wasn't a witness to the shooting,  Butters was, but I don't think he'd carry the same wait as a detective, especially given how he's viewed by his boss.

Secondary question,  does Waldo still work for the Coroner's Office, sorry, the Forensic Institute?

 Well, Rudy has to deal with his sanity first I'd think.  Body or not, there were witnesses to his shooting of Murphy.  However I wouldn't be shocked if he found a way to pin it on Harry.

Don't know if Waldo still works for the Coroner's Office, it hasn't been mentioned for a long time now.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: vincentric on May 24, 2023, 06:23:48 AM
There were no witnesses who saw the actual shooting except Harry and Rudolph. Butters and Sanya were approaching but didn't see the event. There may have been Winter fae that saw it, but that won't help Harry in a human court.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on May 24, 2023, 10:11:21 AM
There were no witnesses who saw the actual shooting except Harry and Rudolph. Butters and Sanya were approaching but didn't see the event. There may have been Winter fae that saw it, but that won't help Harry in a human court.

I have to go back and reread, but my impression was there were a lot of people around, panicked people but people.  At the same time if what you say is true, no witness, no body, nothing can be proved against Rudolph.  However Rudolph can charge Harry with battery and I guess even attempted murder, along with whatever he was going to charge both him and Murphy with at the beginning of Peace Talks.  You can bet though that Molly and Mab will see to it that their Knight is well represented in court.  I have a hunch that we will be seeing the lawyer in The Law again.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 24, 2023, 11:34:06 AM
Yeah Nameless would offer pro bono work to Rudy, because I think Rudy was working for Cowl/Nameless all along. Nameless needed a source inside CPD separate from Marcone’s network, and Rudy was all that was left (Marcone could afford more competent cops).

I think that this is where Harry becomes suspicious of Nameless as having a long term vendetta about Harry, he finds out from Marcone that he is not funding Nameless on this, which means that Nameless was behind Rudy at least as far back as Changes, and that Nameless put Rudy on him for Peace Talks to distract Harry (Marcone had accepted wereguild and wouldn’t want to attract attention). This also shows Nameless involvement in Skin Game he likely let Tessa know that Deidre would have to sacrifice half, as Marcone’s lawyer he would know something was happening and realised the Vault was a way to Hades realm (Cowl of course released the Nimean Lion from that realm and maybe Blood in his Stool.

The Law and Fugitive give major clues that Cowl is Nameless. They also show that Harry is making him reckless and he could be coming to a falling out with Marcone, if Harry and Marcone would compare notes.

I suspect Nameless/Cowl gets the surprise of his life when he attacks Marcone only to find he is dealing with Namshiel.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on May 24, 2023, 08:25:00 PM
There were no witnesses who saw the actual shooting except Harry and Rudolph. Butters and Sanya were approaching but didn't see the event. There may have been Winter fae that saw it, but that won't help Harry in a human court.
Why? most Winter Fae can pass for human and would seem to be willing to testify for the Winter Knight... why couldn't they help Harry in a human court?
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: vincentric on May 24, 2023, 11:41:23 PM
Why? most Winter Fae can pass for human and would seem to be willing to testify for the Winter Knight... why couldn't they help Harry in a human court?

Sidhe can pass for human, most Winter Fae and certainly most of the Wyldfae can't.

Harry didn't have any Sidhe warriors with him, he had malks, trolls, a Rawhead and other assorted monsters. And he sent them to keep the evacuation path for the daycare open, so they weren't on hand for the battle with the giant and the aftermath which was when Rudolph shot Murphy. Butters and Sanya were on the way, but they also hung back until the the kids and Bradley were clear. Toot and Lacuna may have still been nearby, but I don't think you'd want either of them on the witness stand.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 25, 2023, 12:16:55 AM
Lacuna yes, Toot no. Definitely no.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Snark Knight on May 25, 2023, 12:17:16 PM
At the same time if what you say is true, no witness, no body, nothing can be proved against Rudolph.  However Rudolph can charge Harry with battery and I guess even attempted murder, along with whatever he was going to charge both him and Murphy with at the beginning of Peace Talks. 

Theoretically, he could go after Harry for the near-fatal beating. But will he really want to put Harry on the stand, where he might start talking about the question of motive and trying a temporary insanity defense?  Rudy's better off just taking the beating and leaving Murphy officially considered just one of the thousands missing or dead in the attack on the city, where she doesn't attract attention. Even though nothing could be officially pinned on him without forensic evidence that it was a bullet from his service weapon, if other police believe it, it could do him reputational damage.

But he's now terrified of Harry, and almost guaranteed to step up looking for other ways to try to neutralize him.  Probably leaning in to building the other case against him over the bank heist, and looking for opportunities to hire hit men to try to eliminate him.  Being police, he has access to the file on Harry's shooting, so probably realizes that a sniper got really close to succeeding.  Which means Harry had probably better get to work on how to make fully-body bulletproofing enchantments on his clothing, sooner rather than later.

Harry probably isn't cold-blooded enough to go there, but now that he's engaged to Lara, it would be real easy to name-drop Rudy as someone with a lot to feel guilt and emotional turmoil over in front of a Skavis at one of her social functions.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Elequosoraptor on May 25, 2023, 02:34:43 PM
Yeah, I find it unlikely there is any criminal action against Rudolph. It can be hard enough to get a cop on that kind of charge, much less without a body or reliable witnesses, much less in the absolute chaos of death surrounding the event, much less with the strain the legal system will already face in the aftermath. I mean, so many people went missing during that night where would you even start?

As for this, I'm not sure how you get Cowl=Nameless.
The Law and Fugitive give major clues that Cowl is Nameless. They also show that Harry is making him reckless and he could be coming to a falling out with Marcone, if Harry and Marcone would compare notes.

I suspect Nameless/Cowl gets the surprise of his life when he attacks Marcone only to find he is dealing with Namshiel.

Nameless is a demigod, emphasis on the god side, and Mouse just tackled him and broke his arm. That, along with Dresden's own certainty based on the feel of his magic, just screams mortal wizard. I mean, imagine trying to tackle and break the Erlking's arm. Unless you want to say cowl somehow wanted, and therefore allowed Mouse to snap his bones, I just don't see it happening like that.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on May 25, 2023, 03:24:59 PM
Quote
Yeah, I find it unlikely there is any criminal action against Rudolph. It can be hard enough to get a cop on that kind of charge, much less without a body or reliable witnesses, much less in the absolute chaos of death surrounding the event, much less with the strain the legal system will already face in the aftermath. I mean, so many people went missing during that night where would you even start?

Agreed, but you can bet that Rudolph won't have ended his obsession with putting Harry behind bars.  I also think that Harry will have a hard time proving his innocence or proving that Rudolph suffers from serious paranoia.. I do think it will come down to a trial with all kinds of stuff at stake including the threat of Harry being declared an unfit father and little Maggie taken away.  However I think between Lara and Mab, and the lawyer from "The Law," Harry will be gotten off and there will be a "Captain Krig" moment like in "The Cain Mutiny," with Rudolph mumbling about stolen strawberries or some such on the stand. 
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: g33k on May 25, 2023, 04:14:05 PM
Yeah, I find it unlikely there is any criminal action against Rudolph. It can be hard enough to get a cop on that kind of charge, much less without a body or reliable witnesses, much less in the absolute chaos of death surrounding the event, much less with the strain the legal system will already face in the aftermath. I mean, so many people went missing during that night where would you even start?

Yeah, 100% agree.

Even if there were any (mundane) witnesses (I don't think there were any Named Characters, but random civilians & innocent bystanders (hiding in a building overlooking the street, or behind a car, or whatever) would be a reasonable thing (if Jim wanted to write it that way) ... even if, I say, there were such witnesses ... most defense attorneys could almost certainly raise "reasonable doubt" about their credibility:  the terror of suddenly being in a battle-zone, the "fog of war" effect, PTSD-based false memories, etc etc etc.

"They are more-to-be-pitied-than-blamed, ladies & gentlemen of the Jury... but they simply aren't credible ... not beyond a reasonable doubt!"
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 25, 2023, 05:50:38 PM
Rudolph will be cashiered from CPD, so will set himself up as a PI investigating “so-called” supernatural events and debunking them.

The Douchebag Files.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: g33k on May 26, 2023, 12:45:03 AM
Rudolph will be cashiered from CPD, so will set himself up as a PI investigating “so-called” supernatural events and debunking them.

The Douchebag Files.

And with his background in SI, he knows exactly the sorts of fabrications that the Powers That Be like to see in those reports.  He'll become their favorite consultant...
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 26, 2023, 07:31:30 AM
Except he will believe them.

Whilst a large faction of the City and its authorities accept the Supernatural, there will be those who don’t so Rudy will still have his supporters and patrons.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on May 27, 2023, 11:06:17 AM
And with his background in SI, he knows exactly the sorts of fabrications that the Powers That Be like to see in those reports.  He'll become their favorite consultant...

 That sounds about right, not only that but since Justine was able to be Nem infected, there is no reason Rudolph cannot be.  In fact may have been all along which won't be so easy for Harry to explain. 
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 27, 2023, 04:45:07 PM
That sounds about right, not only that but since Justine was able to be Nem infected, there is no reason Rudolph cannot be.  In fact may have been all along which won't be so easy for Harry to explain.

Yes there is,  no self-respecting extra-universal supernatural organism could stomach infecting Rudolph, besides why bother, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on May 27, 2023, 05:04:58 PM
Yes there is,  no self-respecting extra-universal supernatural organism could stomach infecting Rudolph, besides why bother, if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

Or take full advantage of it.. Think about it, taking Murphy out to get to Harry is a very clever plan.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 27, 2023, 06:04:51 PM
Or take full advantage of it.. Think about it, taking Murphy out to get to Harry is a very clever plan.

Which does not sound like Rudy at all, this was set up as far back as Rudy shooting at Mister years before because of his poor trigger (and bowel) discipline.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Snark Knight on May 29, 2023, 03:23:54 AM
Which does not sound like Rudy at all

I don't think Rudy was the one making the plan. I think Rudy was the instrument in someone else's plan.

The passage seemed a lot like something was jamming Harry's ability to raise a shield, and possibly putting Rudy under some sort of suggestion, compulsion, or altered perceptions.

Though I'd lean more towards Fallen, or possibly Cowl, as more probable than Nemesis.  It understands humans better than most Outsiders, but killing Karrin to manipulate Harry into going all blood rage on Rudy is pretty deep to credit it with.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: KurtinStGeorge on May 29, 2023, 04:44:49 AM
First, I'd like to know what Rudolph said after the event.  Was Rudolph saying something like, "It's not my fault, I didn't meant to shoot Murphy." or was Rudolph in so much physical pain that he didn't say anything that anyone could make out. 

The second thing is consider how afraid Rudolph must be of Dresden after being nearly crushed to death by Harry's magic.  I know that Rudolph has incredible powers of denial, but he has good reason to believe to Harry would kill him if he tries to weasel his way out of this one.  All Harry would probably need to do to get Rudolph to change a plea from Not Guilty to Guilty is simply show up at a Court Hearing and stare Rudy down.

That said, I have no clue what Jim wants to do with Rudolph.  I could see it going from the extreme of Rudy having a redemption arc to the creep picking up one of the Blackened Denarius coins.   
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 29, 2023, 12:25:47 PM
I don't think Rudy was the one making the plan. I think Rudy was the instrument in someone else's plan.

The passage seemed a lot like something was jamming Harry's ability to raise a shield, and possibly putting Rudy under some sort of suggestion, compulsion, or altered perceptions.

Though I'd lean more towards Fallen, or possibly Cowl, as more probable than Nemesis.  It understands humans better than most Outsiders, but killing Karrin to manipulate Harry into going all blood rage on Rudy is pretty deep to credit it with.

Harry was saved by two Knights of the Cross, if it was an outside agency manipulating Rudy, it was one of the Fallen, not necessarily a Denarian, but maybe Lucifer, someone who wanted a Destroyer Harry, and who took advantage of the situation. That means someone powerful enough to lock onto Rudy and Harry through all the magic flying around and ‘nudge’ Rudy into firing at Karen, perhaps just obscuring she had killed a giant and ‘nudge’ Harry into killing Rudy in that fashion. I don’t think a Denarian has the power to do that due to their constraints but a Fallen Archangel might. It is the subtle type game Uriel plays, and his countermove was Sanya and Butters.

This makes me think Zoo Day and Day One overlapping were not a coincidence, Harry needed to be at the Zoo to deal with the aspiring Warlock and not kill him, and Mouse to take on Ash, and Maggie to free the kids.Otherwise Harry may have been drawn into the Baku, preventing all three victories so Uriel sent Butters out to prevent that. Archangels play really subtle games.


Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: RobReece on May 29, 2023, 02:42:29 PM
I don’t think a Denarian has the power to do that due to their constraints but a Fallen Archangel might.

A Denarian fully has that capability.   Look at how Lash manipulated  Harry in Dead Beat, even when he was aware of her, she had him  ready to jump out the window.  No chance that Rudolph  is seeing past any of their illusions.
That being said,  I don't think this was the case.  I don't see anyone possessing Rudy, mind games from the outside, probably.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 29, 2023, 04:30:40 PM
Lash’s shadow was inside Harry’s head, he had picked up a coin and that left him vulnerable. No such situation here.

No self-respecting entity would wear Rudy.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on May 30, 2023, 05:19:05 PM
Toot and Lacuna may have still been nearby, but I don't think you'd want either of them on the witness stand.
I would LOVE to see Toot on the witness stand... so would you...

Harry (or whoever is calling them as a witness) wouldn't... :)
Rudolph will be cashiered from CPD, so will set himself up as a PI investigating “so-called” supernatural events and debunking them.

The Douchebag Files.
;D
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on May 30, 2023, 05:33:38 PM
Toot unexpectedly does throw up pearls of wisdom and clarity of view look how he took Sanya to task for wrongly classifying him.

The first hurdle is swearing on the Bible, Toot is a creature of faerie and not the White God, so it is likely he would have to swear on a copy of the Pizza S’Press menu.

Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on May 30, 2023, 05:36:47 PM
Toot unexpectedly does throw up pearls of wisdom and clarity of view look how he took Sanya to task for wrongly classifying him.

The first hurdle is swearing on the Bible, Toot is a creature of faerie and not the White God, so it is likely he would have to swear on a copy of the Pizza S’Press menu.
Toot wouldn't understand swearing to tell the truth...

Fae can't lie, but Toot can't even understand lying.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: CrusherJen on May 31, 2023, 11:33:49 PM
I'm not sure it could go to a jury trial. With Murphy's body missing, there's no physical evidence remaining to link Rudolph to the crime. No proof of her death, no forensic autopsy, no ballistics, nothing but one person's uncorroborated testimony. (If I remember correctly, Butters and Sanya showed up after the shot was fired, so they couldn't testify they saw Rudolph fire his gun.) With the power out, any nearby security cameras wouldn't be functional, unless they had a battery backup... but that assumes they didn't get blown out again by the magic unleashed in the battle against the giant.

And Harry was already under investigation for the robbery at Marcone's vault, by Rudolph. The defense attorney would have a field day discrediting Harry with that information.

As much as I'd like to see Rudolph up on murder charges, I don't see any realistic way for it to happen. (Though I love the image of Toot on the witness stand... 😆) The karma bus is bound to catch up with him somehow, but I don't think it will happen through the mortal justice system.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 01, 2023, 05:42:02 PM
Rudolph is internal affairs someone was pulling strings to get him on that case, but it wouldn’t bear long-term scrutiny it was part of the pressure tactics on Harry and other key figures prior to the Titans arrival- I suspect Nameless, as a lawyer for the Mob he has the knowledge , but couldn’t use Marcone’s connections, too close to home.

Rudy is far more likely to face IA himself for his actions at the daycare, those were cops kids, and Bradley and the day care supervisor were witnesses.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: CrusherJen on June 01, 2023, 07:53:25 PM
Rudolph is internal affairs someone was pulling strings to get him on that case, but it wouldn’t bear long-term scrutiny it was part of the pressure tactics on Harry and other key figures prior to the Titans arrival- I suspect Nameless, as a lawyer for the Mob he has the knowledge , but couldn’t use Marcone’s connections, too close to home.

Rudy is far more likely to face IA himself for his actions at the daycare, those were cops kids, and Bradley and the day care supervisor were witnesses.

Good catch! That could definitely happen... and it should.  ;D
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on June 01, 2023, 10:48:08 PM
I'm not sure it could go to a jury trial.
Rudy is likely to admit to it to someone...

"Harry tried to kill me!"
"What? why? when?"
"He was acting shifty, I think he was involved with the blackout, I was trying to arrest him and Murphy came between us, she shouldn't have done that... Harry tried to pull something and my gun went off."
"You shot Harry?"
"No, Murphy, she shouldn't have come between us!"
"Okay, then what?"
"He looked at me, and I couldn't breath."
"Okay, then what?"
"That M.E. Butters came up with a flashlight and said something to Harry, Harry ground his teeth and then left."
"He just left?"
"Yeah, he did something and I couldn't breath and then after talking to the M.E. he just left, he tried to kill me!"
"He tried to choak you?" mimes hands on throat
"No, he walked up to me and I couldn't breath."
"He pushed you against the wall?"
"No... no, he didn't touch me..."
"Okay... you were trying to arrest him, on what charge?"
"He was just shady, I am sure he was involved in this whole blackout thing"
"What did you see that makes you think that?"
"He is always there in the middle of all this shady stuff, I know he was involved!"
"So you have busted him before?"
"Well no, Murphy always protected him before, but she can't protect him now."
"The same Murphy you shot?"
"Do I need a lawyer?"
"That might be a good idea..."
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 02, 2023, 07:30:02 PM
Dereliction of duty, cowardice, using the children as human shields, using his trousers as a latrine, wearing a pornstache, they will throw everything at him for that he will lose his job and his pension. He was never liked within the force but now they will positively hate him.

And for putting children in harm? Everyone knows what Marcone thinks of that, especially the officers in his pocket, as I think he is Nameless rather than Marcone’s hireling Nameless can’t be seen to come to his defence, without giving himself away.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: g33k on June 04, 2023, 03:01:23 PM
... That said, I have no clue what Jim wants to do with Rudolph ...

To be honest, I kinda think Jim has pegged Rudy as an object lesson of "sometimes, the assholes don't have bad stuff happen to them, they just skate free..."   :(
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 04, 2023, 04:53:24 PM
He missed a bet with Christmas Eve, Kringle runs the Wild Hunt, so Rudolph the Brown Nosed Reindeer could have been a real thing.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on June 05, 2023, 10:59:22 PM
And for putting children in harm? Everyone knows what Marcone thinks of that, especially the officers in his pocket, as I think he is Nameless rather than Marcone’s hireling Nameless can’t be seen to come to his defence, without giving himself away.
wait....

You think Rudolph is Nameless is Cowl?

I need a full theory post, have you made one? can you give me a link? can you make one?

Rudolph = Cowl...  not something I ever considered or understand how you got there... so confused...

I can't even figure out what you might have meant if that wasn't what you meant... I just... what?!?!? you can't go dropping random things like that in a thread without any explanations or... Brain go melty melty...

Edit: Did you mean to say "I think he is Nameless' not Marcone's hireling"... that would make more sense... okay ignore me... I think I got it now... :(
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 06, 2023, 11:48:20 AM
Rudy is Nameless hireling, his goon, his stooge.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on June 06, 2023, 03:56:19 PM
Rudy is Nameless hireling, his goon, his stooge.

"Rudy is Nameless' hireling, his goon, his stooge."
'Rudy is Nameless^ That Apostrophe is important.  In your original post you used the apostrophe for Marcone's but not for Nameless' and the lack of an added "s" when converting Nameless to possessive form makes it harder to infer the possessive (Marcones can be inferred to be possessive because plural doesn't make sense in context, but Nameless doesn't enjoy the same logic).  I got there in the end, but was quite confused for a while. :)
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 08, 2023, 12:44:30 PM
You know the spell Harry used on Carlos cloak? Harry really needs to use it on Rudy’s pornstache during his disciplinary hearing.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 10, 2023, 03:47:24 PM
What will be interesting is how others react to events from Battle Ground.

Is Bradley going to get the whole story, and if so... well Murphy and Dresden did save his kid, and Rudolph murdered Karrin in exchange for it. How will he handle that? 
Kincaid and Murphy aren't an item anymore, but I suspect he's still got some fondness for her.
Rawlins, if he survived, seems he might have some strong feelings towards Rudolph.
The Alphas were ready to jump Rudolph and Bradley when they were just going to arrest Harry.  What are they going to do to Rudolph for killing their friend?
Legal consequences for Rudolph are the least of his concerns.

For that matter, I suspect that if Harry would have just shot Rudolph,  the sword wouldn't have done anything to him.  Using magic and The Mantle of the Winter Knight made it a different matter.  I could be wrong on that, but it fits.  Angels can interfere with supernatural threats, but not vanilla mortal technology. 
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on June 12, 2023, 04:21:52 PM
For that matter, I suspect that if Harry would have just shot Rudolph,  the sword wouldn't have done anything to him.  Using magic and The Mantle of the Winter Knight made it a different matter.  I could be wrong on that, but it fits.  Angels can interfere with supernatural threats, but not vanilla mortal technology.
I don't think the Swords are bound like that.  The Denarians are in the coins to get away from exactly that rule, you can't use angelic power to breach free will, and the swords have angels in them to counteract the fallen in the coins.  So I believe the angels in the swords are able to use the wielder's free will to affect the world with their power just as the Denarians can. I think the Angels generally don't because they are Angels... but I think for Harry they would make an exception and stop him from making a mistake that he couldn't live with.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 12, 2023, 05:34:49 PM
My theory is the White God oversees a peace to prevent the Supernatural from impacting upon the mortal world too heavily and destroying humanity. The Red Court and the Titan are obvious examples of this. The Baku was a new monster who knew how big if could get, Siriothrax had obviously extruded more into the mortal world than he should have. They don’t just counter the Fallen, a genuine Threat in their own right.

This doesn’t prevent the Supernatural from preying on Humans, in fact it promotes humanity’s capacity to work together and its technology, towards the Singularity resulting in the creation of the White God. This peace also empowers circles and thresholds, protections for humans from lesser threats.

It’s all free will and the power wielde by the knights and users of Soulfire (its champions) do so out of free will. The wielder supplies the action, the angel supplies just enough power to carry that action through.


Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 12, 2023, 06:01:53 PM
Good point about the wielder and their use of free will.  I was basing my position on the Carpenter's security, where they can stop Nickelheads but not mooks with guns.
Obviously the swords can be used against mooks, but Fidelacchius didn't affect Harry at the house, and he was counting on it behaving the same.  What was different between the two instances? The winter mantle being given more control is the big one.

But maybe it's all about intent.  Maybe Harry and Waldo's state of mind and intent  (there's that free will again) were the difference. 

Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 12, 2023, 06:31:57 PM
Harry was willing to allow his free will to be subsumed by the Mantle and become a humanity ending monster its that reason why the Swords were in play in this instance, not to stop the Titan, but to win the fight for Harry’s free will, as that is what eventually led to the Titan being stopped, to stop the Starborn becoming The Destroyer and dooming his universe.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 12, 2023, 07:23:17 PM
Most likely.
In any case, to the original topic,  I think formal charges against Rudy will only be about his behavior inside the day care center, where Bradley and the "grandmotherly" woman are witnesses. 
Given the casualties the CPD likely took?  I suspect they'll be reluctant to get rid of anyone.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 14, 2023, 02:48:28 PM


  Rudy won't be charged, if there is charges, it will be about what he has accused both Harry and Murphy with.  Lets not forget even Bradly was trying to arrest them at the beginning with it started to hit the fan at the beginning of Battle Ground.. And no, those charges haven't gone away and you can bet that Rudy will continue to try and press them and possibly add an attempted murder charge as well for Harry's attack after he shot Murphy.  It is all being set up, and I wouldn't be shocked if a trial takes up a significant part of "Twelve Months," especially in the light of the legal theme of one of the last short stories.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Melriken on June 14, 2023, 06:17:34 PM
Rudy won't be charged
Of course not, conservation of plot requires he not be charged unless it is to force Harry to defend him because he is being railroaded by someone in the supernatural community for nefarious purposes...

Yeah... Jim might just bring Rudy up on charges only for Mab to reveal that harry has to get him off... yeah... that sounds like Jim... :(
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 14, 2023, 07:55:36 PM
How much political pressure will Lara Raith put against a DA trying to bring charges against her fiance?
It's going to be interesting how things play out.

Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 15, 2023, 01:39:20 AM
Harry was willing to allow his free will to be subsumed by the Mantle and become a humanity ending monster its that reason why the Swords were in play in this instance, not to stop the Titan, but to win the fight for Harry’s free will, as that is what eventually led to the Titan being stopped, to stop the Starborn becoming The Destroyer and dooming his universe.

  I don't think the Winter Knight's Mantle had much to do with Harry losing it and nearly killing Rudolph.  Witnessing Rudolph senselessly gunning down Murphy was the match that blew the powder keg.. Harry is a powerful wizard who became emotionally unhinged at that moment, and was willing to draw on the black.. He needed no assist, but yes, his friends were there to stop him, as friends should do.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: forumghost on June 15, 2023, 06:30:09 AM
I mean yes but also no. If you look at Harry's internal dialogue in that moment it's very much reminiscent of the end of Cold Day's when he let the mantle in too deep.

Like how he refers to Rudolph as a 'thing' or how he's happy that Sanya shows up to stop him because he'll put up more of a fight.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Conspiracy Theorist on June 15, 2023, 09:01:54 AM
Harry had a handle on the Mantle despite all provocation and everything going around him, then Rudy, it was the ultimate test. However who was influencing Rudy? I have him as Cowl’s man.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 15, 2023, 10:03:18 AM
Harry had a handle on the Mantle despite all provocation and everything going around him, then Rudy, it was the ultimate test. However who was influencing Rudy? I have him as Cowl’s man.

   Rudy is a paranoid dick, has been since we first met him.. I doubt he is Cowl's man or anyone else of the supernatural world.. No, he is simply pure vanilla human a-hole..
Quote
I mean yes but also no. If you look at Harry's internal dialogue in that moment it's very much reminiscent of the end of Cold Day's when he let the mantle in too deep.

Like how he refers to Rudolph as a 'thing' or how he's happy that Sanya shows up to stop him because he'll put up more of a fight.
 

I don't think you can compare the two, in Cold Days he was dealing with the mantel's rages and power over things like sexual urges and violent over reactions.

Yes, he calls Rudy a thing, not because of the mantle, but because Rudy had just killed his beloved and had harassed the both of them for years.  His reaction was a normal human violent reaction to to someone murdering a loved one before his eyes.  The proof that Harry wasn't under the mantel's influence is his reaction once Sanya and Butters got him under control.. 
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 15, 2023, 01:59:46 PM
Fidelacchius burned Harry.  Because the mantle, supernatural "wicked faerie" power was influencing him. 
Yes his grief and anger were feeding it, but the mantle was, if not running things, then it was definitely guiding the details his actions.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 15, 2023, 02:09:59 PM
Fidelacchius burned Harry.  Because the mantle, supernatural "wicked faerie" power was influencing him. 
Yes his grief and anger were feeding it, but the mantle was, if not running things, then it was definitely guiding the details his actions.

Or it burned him as a warning not to break one of the Ten Commandants in this case.  I don't think it was about "wicked fairy" influences, because 1] I don't think Mab or the Winter Court are evil. 2] I don't think the mantle is evil in of itself.. 3] Perhaps more importantly previously the Sword didn't burn him, the mantle was still there, I doubt if it were evil in of itself the influence would stop. Think of the mantle as a tool, it enables a human Knight to do what he or she has to do.  Can it be used for evil in the wrong vessel? Yes, it can, but that doesn't make it evil in of itself of wicked fairies.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: g33k on June 15, 2023, 09:04:54 PM
Or it burned him as a warning not to break one of the Ten Commandants in this case.  I don't think it was about "wicked fairy" influences, because 1] I don't think Mab or the Winter Court are evil. 2] I don't think the mantle is evil in of itself.. 3] Perhaps more importantly previously the Sword didn't burn him, the mantle was still there, I doubt if it were evil in of itself the influence would stop. Think of the mantle as a tool, it enables a human Knight to do what he or she has to do.  Can it be used for evil in the wrong vessel? Yes, it can, but that doesn't make it evil in of itself of wicked fairies.

The Swords do not act to prevent simple human error -- even Sin -- when driven by simple human passions like fear, love, anger, pain, etc.  Sometimes the Knights will do that, offering compassion and wisdom.

The Angelic powers of the Swords only come into play when they need to neutralize Supernatural impacts.

The primary task of the Swords is to counter the Denarians, but they help whenever the Supernatural is threatening to take away humans' free will.

Harry felt pain because he was "acting under the influence," not from his own free will; or, possibly, because (under the WK Mantle) he himself was a "Supernatural" influence.

My bet, though, is that Lasciel was the Guilty Party here; that she's still got some sort of hooks into Harry.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: vincentric on June 15, 2023, 10:43:19 PM
It wasn't a case of the WK mantle taking over Harry in a moment of rage, it was Harry embracing the rage and becoming the mantle.

The sword burned Harry in this case because he is a Supernatural now. The mantle gives him several powers and he has the fae vulnerability to iron.  The sword did what was necessary to defend Rudy from the Winter Knight but only enough to shock Harry out of the bad choice he made.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 16, 2023, 03:49:10 AM
It wasn't a case of the WK mantle taking over Harry in a moment of rage, it was Harry embracing the rage and becoming the mantle.

The sword burned Harry in this case because he is a Supernatural now. The mantle gives him several powers and he has the fae vulnerability to iron.  The sword did what was necessary to defend Rudy from the Winter Knight but only enough to shock Harry out of the bad choice he made.

Except the Sword of Faith is no longer made of iron, nor was Harry anymore supernatural then as he was in the beginning of Peace Talks when he touched the blade without harm... It is weird because in Death Masks Susan couldn't take the Sword of Faith to carry for Harry without it burning her.  Yes, she was half vamp now, but she didn't have any evil intent when he handed her the Sword so he could climb up the ladder being injured.  However in Changes, she could wield the Sword of Love as a Knight for one night to save her daughter.  What I am trying to say is it is complicated.
Quote
The Swords do not act to prevent simple human error -- even Sin -- when driven by simple human passions like fear, love, anger, pain, etc.  Sometimes the Knights will do that, offering compassion and wisdom.
Normally, but Harry isn't normal, humans aren't normally gifted with soul fire either.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: The_Sibelis on June 16, 2023, 05:21:36 AM
  I don't think the Winter Knight's Mantle had much to do with Harry losing it and nearly killing Rudolph.  Witnessing Rudolph senselessly gunning down Murphy was the match that blew the powder keg.. Harry is a powerful wizard who became emotionally unhinged at that moment, and was willing to draw on the black.. He needed no assist, but yes, his friends were there to stop him, as friends should do.
indeed, he didn't use wintery style magic or anything flavored with it... Though if I'm remembering the right description(couple scenes it could have been) his mindset really resembled that he touched upon in HWWBH, the self loathing and hatred mixed.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 17, 2023, 03:19:00 AM
I put "Wicked Faerie" in quotes because I also disagree with the simplistic view of Mab as "evil".  She's cold, ruthless  and apparently driven by logic and reason to an inhuman degree (though she clearly does have strong emotions). But all that just makes her, well, inhuman.  Which she is. 
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 17, 2023, 10:26:56 AM
I put "Wicked Faerie" in quotes because I also disagree with the simplistic view of Mab as "evil".  She's cold, ruthless  and apparently driven by logic and reason to an inhuman degree (though she clearly does have strong emotions). But all that just makes her, well, inhuman.  Which she is.

Perhaps, but it wasn't her influence that caused Harry to attack Rudy.  I think a point being missed is he was also "judging" Rudy, that is a big no,no... That was the big mistake Murphy had made when she broke the Sword when she tried to kill Nic.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Nooneofconsequence on June 19, 2023, 02:48:13 AM
And there's the fact that Harry wasn't just killing Rudolph.
He was killing Rudolph slowly and cruelly, while savoring his terror.  And that is the Winter Mantle's influence.

Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: The_Sibelis on June 19, 2023, 03:47:19 AM
And there's the fact that Harry wasn't just killing Rudolph.
He was killing Rudolph slowly and cruelly, while savoring his terror.  And that is the Winter Mantle's influence.
hehe, but, it's heavily implied the mantle and it's attendant influences are in fact your freudian Shadow speaking louder? I mean, check out what it did to Harry vs others known to have held it? Many serial killers with many different and distinct M.Os and preferences. I think that's Harry, Harry without ever touching Winter understood going after Michael's family to get to him. I'd compare it to a profiler, he's always understood bad things, he just doesn't chose to do them.
Though, I am making a specific distinction between mantle influence and influence that's changed how Harry will chose to behave. He has become a bit rougher around the edges.
Title: Re: Rudy up on charges?
Post by: Mira on June 19, 2023, 10:18:46 AM
hehe, but, it's heavily implied the mantle and it's attendant influences are in fact your freudian Shadow speaking louder? I mean, check out what it did to Harry vs others known to have held it? Many serial killers with many different and distinct M.Os and preferences. I think that's Harry, Harry without ever touching Winter understood going after Michael's family to get to him. I'd compare it to a profiler, he's always understood bad things, he just doesn't chose to do them.
Though, I am making a specific distinction between mantle influence and influence that's changed how Harry will chose to behave. He has become a bit rougher around the edges.

On the other hand, everyone has their breaking point.  Watching a man who persecuted him and the woman he loves for a number of years senselessly gun that woman down, he broke.  However his friends and a warning burn from a holy sword brought him back to his senses, and he felt shame and continued to for what he almost did.  Harry is still Harry.