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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on April 29, 2023, 04:46:35 AM
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I've seen people on Reddit and YouTube channels that cover the Dresden Files speculating that the Wizard of Chicago might become a mantle that would presumably would come with a set of currently undefined powers. I suppose it's possible, but doesn't seem more likely that Harry; when he is acting as the Wizard of Chicago, might instead become a signatory of Mab's accords and become a recognized supernatural power in his own right? Harry would still be a vassal of Winter when he is acting as the Winter Knight, just as Odin is a vassal of Winter when he is acting as Kringle. The rest of the time Odin is a recognized power in his own right, so why couldn't Harry do that too?
The best thing about this happening is it would really get the Merlin and several others on The White Council really P.O.'d because instead of undercutting Harry by kicking him off the Council, they unleashed Harry and made him more influential than he could ever be as just another Warden. In theory, Harry joining the accords as an independent power would also put Harry on the same footing as Marcone, which could also lead to interesting complications.
Harry would need three signatures acting as representatives of their various supernatural nations. He should be able to get Molly's signature and Lara Raiths and he would only need one more after that.
I just think it's a really fun idea because despite the increase in prestige it would bring Harry, being a signatory of Mab's accords would almost certainly bring him many headaches as well.
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Oh it would be a real hoot if Marcone became the third signer.
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Mantles are made from the nine we have seen, they do not occur naturally. The only mantle concerning Harry which he owns in on his duster, and over the fireplace in the Castle. Mab owns the Winter Knights ass (does Harry now have a snowflake tramp stamp?)
What is more likely is that Little Chicago inadvertently created an embryo genius loci for Chicago(massively accelerating the natural process) and that Harry bonds with it in the same way he did with Demonreach, so when Harry passes, another wizard can bond with it as the new Wizard of Chicago. Harry had Soulfire after Small Favour so that may have inadvertently kick-started the process, and embryonic Genius Loci escaped the model during the fire (mirroring the Great fire of 1871 which led to major rebuilding) passing into and connecting with the Ley Line network (which Harry modelled in Little Chicago) to draw power.
Demonreach is special and old amongst genius loci, so Chicargo would not be able to gift the same powers to Harry, at least not during his lifetime, but it would for example give Harry a home field advantage in being able to draw more power as he anticipated with the Sanctum invocation involving Demonreach, especially as it will be a big genius loci, whilst operating within Chicago itself, maybe as much as he was able to wield in in Battle Ground.
It is a logical power up given Harry’s recent progression and WOJ about Harry becoming more involved locally in civil affairs, far more than the creation of a Mantle.
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Mantles are made from the nine we have seen, they do not occur naturally. The only mantle concerning Harry which he owns in on his duster, and over the fireplace in the Castle. Mab owns the Winter Knights ass (does Harry now have a snowflake tramp stamp?)
What is more likely is that Little Chicago inadvertently created an embryo genius loci for Chicago(massively accelerating the natural process) and that Harry bonds with it in the same way he did with Demonreach, so when Harry passes, another wizard can bond with it as the new Wizard of Chicago. Harry had Soulfire after Small Favour so that may have inadvertently kick-started the process, and embryonic Genius Loci escaped the model during the fire (mirroring the Great fire of 1871 which led to major rebuilding) passing into and connecting with the Ley Line network (which Harry modelled in Little Chicago) to draw power.
Demonreach is special and old amongst genius loci, so Chicargo would not be able to gift the same powers to Harry, at least not during his lifetime, but it would for example give Harry a home field advantage in being able to draw more power as he anticipated with the Sanctum invocation involving Demonreach, especially as it will be a big genius loci, whilst operating within Chicago itself, maybe as much as he was able to wield in in Battle Ground.
It is a logical power up given Harry’s recent progression and WOJ about Harry becoming more involved locally in civil affairs, far more than the creation of a Mantle.
I don't think you read my post beyond the first sentence. I said quite clearly that I doubt the possibility of a mantle being created by Harry becoming the Wizard of Chicago. What seems more likely to me is Harry becoming recognized as a power in his own right by signing on to Mab's accords as a Free Holding Lord, just like Marcone and the Semi-Immortal Shape Shifter Guru in Ukraine.
Oh it would be a real hoot if Marcone became the third signer.
I very much agree with you and hope it happens. However, Marcone would have to have a hell of a good reason to agree to help put Harry on the same political level as himself.
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Isn't there a fairly absurd amount of paperwork to wade through? I might be thinking of the protocols for getting a site declared accorded neutral grounds, but if not, I doubt Harry has the patience for a slog through documents.
Plus, membership in two accorded nations only worked for Harry because he was Council before essentially selling himself to Mab. I'm not sure it would fly with a lot of the other nations for someone who's already the Winter Knight to subsequently sign on as a freeholding lord. Might buy a lot more trouble with Summer in particular than it's worth.
Secondarily, I think there was a WOJ that a lot of mid-tier players are deterred because claiming independent micronation status can oblige you to, for example, be a good lawful host on a blampire if called on to do so.
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Harry signing onto the Acords as a Freeholding Lord would go a long way to balance the power of winter... IE it would free Harry to act AGAINST Mab when he needed to. It would also make his personal life worse because he would have to help settle arguments between other members of the Accords...
The Vampires and the Fairies both claim ownership of this baby for these reasons... who gets to eat the baby?
This would be another step to creating a Mantle out of the Wizard of Chicago...
I have also wondered if the Wizard of Chicago will owe fealty to the Baron of Chicago, after all Marcone tried to hire Harry before Mab did, and like Mab has been sending him jobs that he can't refuse for a while now... and Harry would love it if the mantle of the Wizard of Chicago was similar to the mantle of the Knight of Winter...
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I don't think Harry has what it takes to become a signatory in his own right.
He's just not suited to handle that. Maybe after a century or so of tempering.
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My opinion s that Harry is groomed by almost everyone to take over Mabs mantle. meaning defender of reality and holding the outer gates.
I think somewhere with the mothers or the gatekeeper it was said that Mabs responsibility is defending all of reality „in this age“. Mab took over around Hastings? And was mortal before that.
So she probably was a Starborn, because its pretty nifty when the main focus point of defense against the outsiders can’t be corrupted by them.
So in the next age, it is humanity who will take over the defense, not Winter anymore.
Most factions prepare starborns to be in position to take over the defense mantle, because with this mantle, there also comes lots of additional, collateral power over how our reality looks like. Makes a lot of difference if the ruleset after the accords is written by Drakul or by Harry.
Maybe Harry enlists or press-gangs the inmates of Demonreach to be the defenders or consumes all of them and sets up a new defense line. But this will be his last mantle.
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So in the next age, it is humanity who will take over the defense, not Winter anymore.
No, the last time around it was a mortal that was put in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates and that mortal was transformed into Fey and created the entire Fey Courts for the purpose.
Humans won't be put in charge of the outer gates, whoever ends up in charge of them will stop being human. That probably is Harry... but he won't be human in that case, he will be something else.
The story starts with "My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, conjure by it at your own risk"... he doesn't end up human.
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Really, I wasn’t aware of that, maybe you’re right.
But wasn’t there something about Mab not being the first winter queen? So Winter and therefore faerie courts existed before that. I think Titania is still the first one but Mab had a predecessor.
With the greek undertones of Maiden/Queen/Mother I always assumed that the greek/roman guys handled the defense before that.
So I thought the dominant (ok that’s really western centric) pantheon gets the responsibility. Greek civilization, then Middle Ages represented by faerie tales/Vikings/Anglo-Saxon/ etc. Pantheon. Which would mean now its Christianism time. So „humanity“ is probably the wrong term.
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Really, I wasn’t aware of that, maybe you’re right.
But wasn’t there something about Mab not being the first winter queen? So Winter and therefore faerie courts existed before that. I think Titania is still the first one but Mab had a predecessor.
With the greek undertones of Maiden/Queen/Mother I always assumed that the greek/roman guys handled the defense before that.
So I thought the dominant (ok that’s really western centric) pantheon gets the responsibility. Greek civilization, then Middle Ages represented by faerie tales/Vikings/Anglo-Saxon/ etc. Pantheon. Which would mean now its Christianism time. So „humanity“ is probably the wrong term.
The Summer Crone changed, so Titania can't be the original summer queen. Only the Winter Crone hasn't changed, the other five all have.
I agree, Christianity is likely the next guardians of the outer gates. It is also possible the outer gates are sealed and there will no longer be active guardians or that there will be a new round of myths to generate guardians. The fey are the brothers grim stories, that isn't the equivalent of Christianity, but rather campfire stories (Bloody Mary, the Hook Handed Man, etc).
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One of my many , many theories is that the sheer numbers of humanity will give rise in the next century or so to the Singularity The White God and that will close the loop withe the White God creating the multiverse.
That means we are in the last cycle as the multiverse is threatened until the White god comes into being creates the multiverse and linear time. That means that Harry is the last generation of Starborn and we are in the Endgame, with players trying to either stop the creation of the White God (the Outsiders) or to take the place of the White God in the minds of humanity (Drakul, Cowl, Lucifer).
If the White God comes into being around a suitable focus (Uriel or Mister) the vulnerability to the Outsiders ends and the need to defend the gates ends and humanity were indeed the last defenders.
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around a suitable focus (Mister)
;D
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I don't see Wizard of Chicago as a mantle. Why should only Chicago get one? Where is his domain? Marcone's lands? Demonreach is the White council's prison, not Harry's. And i doubt Molly AND Mab can sign for him - it is likely not the individual who signs, it is their realm that they sign FOR. Biden does not sign a treaty for Joe, he signs for the US. Mab signs for Winter. Molly is subsidiary for Mab, she does not sign. The Lady signing as herself is like the Blackstaff signing for himself, not for the White Council. Though Harry might get Vadderung. Harry is likely still considered under two signatories, the WC and Winter. They won't give him another flag. (yes, under the White Council - recall the challenge in the deeps - even the White king said the minor practitioners landed under the White Council's sphere though they were not members of it.
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;D
The singularity includes processing power and the internet is made of cats. Mister has a shot.
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If Harry want to become a freeholding lord, I'm sure he could get Mab and Lara to sign for him. But why bother? He'd already be the Winter Knight and the consort of the White Queen. Why take on the extra work?
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No, the last time around it was a mortal that was put in charge of the defense of the Outer Gates and that mortal was transformed into Fey and created the entire Fey Courts for the purpose.
na, Before Mab was the original Winter Queen iirc, who was an actual fae. It's been hinted at that Toots size progression was similar in how the sidhe formed. If we're going to talk abtthe cycle and it's constant inversion tho.. if we consider Mab that last cycle, then a human was elevated to a known position. This time said human should be outright making said position.Humans won't be put in charge of the outer gates, whoever ends up in charge of them will stop being human. That probably is Harry... but he won't be human in that case, he will be something else.
The story starts with "My name is Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden, conjure by it at your own risk"... he doesn't end up human.
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I don't see Wizard of Chicago as a mantle. Why should only Chicago get one? Where is his domain? Marcone's lands? Demonreach is the White council's prison, not Harry's.
I don't think Demonreach is the White Council's, actually. Just because Merlin made it doesn't mean they've kept up continuous control over it. They failed to prevent one of their worst enemies, Kemmler, from becoming one of the more recent Wardens, and they basically view any of their members taking up the Warden mantle with actual knowledge of what they're doing as tantamount to an act of rebellion and declaration of war on the Council.
Basically the few of them who are aware of Demonreach at all want it kept dormant. It's not much of a claim. Now that they've kicked Harry out, announcing himself as Warden is probably his best claim to being an independent power. Now, is that a good idea? Probably not - it would draw the attention of any nasties who haven't already realized he's the Warden.
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I don't see Wizard of Chicago as a mantle. Why should only Chicago get one? Where is his domain? Marcone's lands?
"Wizard of Chicago" could be a mantle... eventually. It isn't now.
A mantle would have to be created (or form naturally... the genesis of a new Mantle is AFAIK nowhere described, neither in the canonical stories nor WoJ; but I think Harry "raising a banner" in BG is a hint both as to how a "Mantle" might form, and Harry's suitability as a foundational figure).
Demonreach is the White council's prison, not Harry's.
No, the relationship between Demonreach & the Warden is its own thing. I don't doubt the WC would love to claim it as "theirs," but it isn't.
My own WAG is that it's the other way around: the prison/well is the critical and most-important element. The White Council was created as an adjunct to the prison, and the Warden. They are, after all, a Council. By the very definition of the word, they are councilors -- advisors; but to whom? To "the Merlin?" I think not: when decisions are made, "the Merlin" gets an equal vote (much as "the Gatekeeper" does).
And i doubt Molly AND Mab can sign for him - it is likely not the individual who signs, it is their realm that they sign FOR. Biden does not sign a treaty for Joe, he signs for the US. Mab signs for Winter. Molly is subsidiary for Mab, she does not sign. The Lady signing as herself is like the Blackstaff signing for himself, not for the White Council.
Agreed. Any signatory to the Accords can only sign once; you cannot have 2 people from the same signatory.
Harry is likely still considered under two signatories, the WC and Winter. They won't give him another flag. (yes, under the White Council - recall the challenge in the deeps - even the White king said the minor practitioners landed under the White Council's sphere though they were not members of it.
Disagreed. Harry is no longer WC, they kicked him out. The WC certainly won't be honoring his signture as a WC rep under the Accords!
They are of course obligated to honor if he signs as Winter (and one of the 3 Winter Queens doesn't repudiate it).
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Not going to be a Mantle - it’s a Title, a Mantle is very different - an intangible construct of power. Where would Harry get the power to create a Mantle? The knowledge? Is someone else going to make it for him? He would then be beholden to them.
As I have theorised it is actually more likely that he is able to undertake a sanctum invocation with a nascent genius loci of Chicago. Chicago is one of the great characters of the series, it has already been manifested as as avatar through Little Chicago, and the creation and destruction of that Avatar must have led to something perhaps the creation or waking up of a genius loci. That may also finally explain who fixed Little Chicago - Big Chicago did.
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As I have theorised it is actually more likely that he is able to undertake a sanctum invocation with a nascent genius loci of Chicago.
If there is a genius loci of Chicago, Namshiel could have given Marcone a substantial lead over Harry towards recognizing its existence and bonding with it - provided Namshiel doesn't fear making the host too powerful, in their relationship, anyway.
Bonding with a genius loci would go a long way towards explaining why Marcone was able to manifest his own Banner in BG, though. Harry's was as a function of the Knight mantle. I don't see why being a Denarian would grant Marcone the same, but being bonded to the spirit of the city would make for a stronger case.
That's not to say Harry might not be Marcone's successor to it at some point, but if you're right about such a genius loci existing, I suspect it's already spoken for at this point.
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Um, Marcone is Knight of the Blackened Denarius it is likely that elements of the later winter and Summer Knights Mantles were modelled on the Denarians capacities it is likely that Nick was able to use it with the Squires but neglected to tell the others, but Namshiel figured it out anyway. Frankly it was a big clue that Marcone had taken up a coin, enough for Mab to realise from a cryptic remark from Harry.
It largely depends whether the fire destroyed Little Chicago or not leaving it in Namshiels hands or drove the embryo genius loci out into the City itself.
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... It largely depends whether the fire destroyed Little Chicago or not ...
I'm pretty sure WoJ was that LC got destroyed.
I was surprised; I'd have thought the underbasement -- with a little-teeny-tiny-entry -- would have been pretty safe from the fire. And the trap-door was intact, down there in the bottom of the Castle.
I had been expecting LC to re-surface, honestly (though the Battle of Chicago would have trashed much of it, ruining correspondences).
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I'm pretty sure WoJ was that LC got destroyed.
I was surprised; I'd have thought the underbasement -- with a little-teeny-tiny-entry -- would have been pretty safe from the fire. And the trap-door was intact, down there in the bottom of the Castle.
I had been expecting LC to re-surface, honestly (though the Battle of Chicago would have trashed much of it, ruining correspondences).
Jim lies. That's definitely one of them. Harry even goes into his old basement in either PT or BG, it's not overly scorched that I recall 🤔
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Jim lies. That's definitely one of them. Harry even goes into his old basement in either PT or BG, it's not overly scorched that I recall 🤔
I don't think it's important enough to lie about. I think Jim wanted it to be destroyed, it was one of the changes in Changes.
It's not like it's an issue such as "what did Lea do that will make Harry want to kill her" or "who is Cowl" or "How did Malcolm Dresden die, precisely?" &c.
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Harry to rebuild LC.
See, he's got this army of Little People: he could dispatch them all over Chicago to collect new fragments of the new construction, and reconstitute the physical model overnight.
As the Warden, he can tap into immeasurable power of the ley-lines, and empower LCv2 with a single spell.
I think Nammy (& maybe others) found the ruined LC, realized how much time Harry had sunk into it, and will be counting on Harry not to have LC available anymore (without a similar amount of time invested (which he has not had)). But Harry has new ways to cheat.
And after all: he IS the Wizard of Chicago, now!
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I don't think it's important enough to lie about. I think Jim wanted it to be destroyed, it was one of the changes in Changes.
course it is. It doesn't connect to Chicago anymore you know, it's too outdated from how Chicago is now, especially after BG. What it connect's to is hoe Chicago was when it was made. That's a very important distinction I think.
It's not like it's an issue such as "what did Lea do that will make Harry want to kill her" or "who is Cowl" or "How did Malcolm Dresden die, precisely?" &c.
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Harry to rebuild LC.
See, he's got this army of Little People: he could dispatch them all over Chicago to collect new fragments of the new construction, and reconstitute the physical model overnight.
As the Warden, he can tap into immeasurable power of the ley-lines, and empower LCv2 with a single spell.
I think Nammy (& maybe others) found the ruined LC, realized how much time Harry had sunk into it, and will be counting on Harry not to have LC available anymore (without a similar amount of time invested (which he has not had)). But Harry has new ways to cheat.
And after all: he IS the Wizard of Chicago, now!
doubt he'd have to remake it by hand. In the vein of similarities between Dresden and Odin, Odin had a much sleeker holographic version of what Harry made.
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I don't think it's important enough to lie about. I think Jim wanted it to be destroyed, it was one of the changes in Changes.
It's not like it's an issue such as "what did Lea do that will make Harry want to kill her" or "who is Cowl" or "How did Malcolm Dresden die, precisely?" &c.
I'm kinda-sorta expecting Harry to rebuild LC.
See, he's got this army of Little People: he could dispatch them all over Chicago to collect new fragments of the new construction, and reconstitute the physical model overnight.
And after all: he IS the Wizard of Chicago, now!
It would just be a map of the pie shops.
LC could be destroyed by fire but that may merely force LC into BC, and yes if it had survived it would be badly out of date.
Here’s a thought - if LC was developing as an embryo Genius Loci- maybe it fixed itself?