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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: KurtinStGeorge on April 16, 2023, 06:49:42 AM
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There's no way to be certain, but I want to run a WAG by everyone that relates to a nemfected fallen angel. But first, I want to give some context to put this idea into perspective. In White Night, Harry has a conversation with Lashiel's shadow in which he claims that she had changed from when Harry first picked up the coin:
Lash - "You. Cannot. Change. Me."
Harry - "You're right. I can't change Lasciel. But I couldn't prevent Lasciel from walking out of the room, either." I eyed her hard and lowered my voice. "Lady, you ain't Lasciel."
So, from the above bit of conversation it appears the Fallen are immutable, it is only their shadow form that can be altered through contact with a mortal. However, Outsiders aren't mortals. Nemesis isn't a mortal. What if the Fallen are not invulnerable to becoming nemfected? Equally important, why would I think one of the Fallen might be nemfected? Well, there is this bit of conversation between Harry and Nicodemus in Small Favor:
Harry - "Tessa and Rosanna," I said quietly. "They got their collection of thugs back. They bailed at just the right moment to ruin your plan, too."
Nicodemus - "Deceitful bitches," Nicodemus murmured. "One of them is our own Judas; I was sure of it." ...
Harry - "And you're telling me this why?"
Nicodemus - He shrugged a shoulder. "It's somewhat ironic, Dresden, that I can talk to you about this particular aspect of family business. You're the only one that I'm sure hasn't gone over to this new force-this Black Council of yours."
The hypothetical Black Council, a group of human wizards and other supernatural beings who appear to be in league with the Outsiders, with Nemesis. And Nicodemus thinks Tessa or Rosanna is one of them. We've only seen Rossana in Small Favor, which makes it difficult to judge her words and actions in that novel as being anything but that of one of the Fallen and her collaborating mortal partner. I didn't get any vibes in Skin Game that Tessa was acting against her nature. That would be a major clue that she was nemfected. I find it difficult to believe that one of the Fallen would ever enter into a long-term alliance with Outsiders. They might do it on rare occasions but only if they thought they weren't helping to bring on the end of reality, the thing the Outsiders want most. That is why I think one of the Fallen would have to have been taken over by Nemesis to do its bidding.
However, there's a problem with Nicodemus telling us Tessa or Rosanna is Black Council. Think of a stage magician getting his audience to look one way while the real action is taking place somewhere else. Of course, the stage magician is Jim Butcher and he has every reason to misdirect the readers. I think Jim may have hidden the real traitor among the Fallen in plain sight. It’s Thorned Namshiel. He’s the Denarian who threw around hell fire at Arctis Tor. Mab confirmed that in her final conversation with Harry in Small Favor. Do you think Thorned Namshiel was just following Tessa’s orders when it attacked, or helped to attack Arctis Tor? He might have done so, but it doesn’t make much sense to me. It makes more sense to think that Thorned Namshiel had his own agenda or he was being controlled by Nemesis.
If the later is true, this doesn't mean that Marcone is nemfected, though he could be. Marcone might just be getting advise and training from a Nemesis infected fallen angel. Though at some point it might be beneficial or simply necessary for Nemesis to directly control Marcone. But; I can hear some people saying, Marcone and Thorned Namshiel helped to defend Chicago from Ethniu. I think Ethniu had her own agenda and there's no reason to think she was a Nemesis agent. It might be more important for Nemesis to build up Marcone's position in the supernatural world, especially in Mab's alliance, in order to help set up the sucker punch Nemesis wants to pull off to bring all the supernatural powers allied against it down.
The beauty of this scenario is this, if Marcone starts to act odd or out of character, most of us would think that is an indication that Thorned Namshiel is starting to take over and fully control Marcone. Most of us would never think that Nemesis was controlling Marcone. It could be a great surprise for Mab, for Harry and for the readers.
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I'm pretty sure there was a WOJ that, at least, archangels aren't susceptible to Nemesis because their nature is immutable. Maybe he wasn't speaking to the lower orders of angels on that point because he just wanted to keep readers guessing, but the omission seems striking.
On the other hand, it's not impossible that some of the Fallen - being treacherous by nature - might make a calculated decision to go over to the other side for rewards under the new Outsider order, rather than being compelled by Nemesis. Or the infection might be of the host rather than the Fallen.
Regarding Namshiel though, I think he's the misdirect, with Tessa and/or Rosanna framing him as the Denarian turncoat. Marcone isn't an innate talent, or at least he's a very minor one if he has any juice at all - most of what he's doing relies on Namshiel's power. All it would have taken to ensure Nemesis' success in BG would have been for Namshiel to turn off the tap at the crucial moment. That suggest that while Namshiel is still a dick, he's acting on his own purposes rather than the Outsiders'.
As for Arctis Tor, we don't actually have Mab's reasoning for believing he was the attacker (for that matter, she didn't actively confirm Harry's guess that he was, either, she just stayed silent to it). But I don't think it would be beyond Tessa's abilities to cast a disguise that would pass for Namshiel so long as she didn't get too close to Mab. Just choose a spiny battle form instead of her usual one - or even cast a high quality illusion of one - fry some foot soldiers from a distance, and boom, you've got a patsy set up even if the attack fails.
Besides, on all the other occasions we've seen Namshiel fight, he seems to have a preference for more esoteric forms of magic over raw fire - I suspect it's an egotistical streak. I suppose it's possible the attacker really was Namshiel and he was just resorting to crude fire because it's a good counter to lots of Winter troops, but it seems more compelling that someone less talented was posing as Namshiel.
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Of course there's an associated third option: the Fallen - being treacherous by nature - intending to abuse the Outsiders to achieve some goal, fully intending to stab their back if they should ever seem likely to succeed.
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But maybe it is not the Fallen but the host? The namshiel that pioured fire in Winter should be the previous host, who was killed. doesn't mean it passed to Marcone
And Namshiel may use other things besides fire... but fire may be exactly what you use against Winter, the old Fire and Ice opposites. He may have many tools and likes to use the proper one instead of defaulting to fire, but sometimes, fire is the right tool.
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They are I believe the same thing, the Outsiders split when they disagreed with creation, the Fallen split over the rise of humanity.
In that case the Hosts of the Fallen are already nemfected.
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The infection might be of the host rather than the Fallen.
I suspect this is the case because I don't think the fallen can be Nemfected directly.
Remember the Winter Lady wasn't infected (the mantle) rather the host was infected. Killing the host removed the Nemfection (or Molly is Nemfected...).
Regarding Namshiel though, I think he's the misdirect, with Tessa and/or Rosanna framing him as the Denarian turncoat. Marcone isn't an innate talent, or at least he's a very minor one if he has any juice at all - most of what he's doing relies on Namshiel's power. All it would have taken to ensure Nemesis' success in BG would have been for Namshiel to turn off the tap at the crucial moment. That suggest that while Namshiel is still a dick, he's acting on his own purposes rather than the Outsiders'.
Keep in mind that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win, they wanted her to do damage and distract Harry so he would let one of them into the Well... the plan REQUIRES Harry to ultimately win and when Marcone could have turned traitor to let Ethniu win... the Outsiders wanted Ethniu to lose. So while I agree that Marcone and Namshiel are NOT Nemfected, I don't think this proves anything.
They are I believe the same thing, the Outsiders split when they disagreed with creation, the Fallen split over the rise of humanity.
In that case the Hosts of the Fallen are already nemfected.
This can't be. All the outsiders work together (as near as the council can tell) with one will.
If the Outsiders were originally Angels and they split from the white god during creation and then later a second group of Angels split from the white god because he favored humans (with free will) they would be two distinct groups with two distinct goals and thoughts (as indicated by them splitting over different issues and at different times), they could cooperate the same as a host and Denarian can cooperate, but the fallen would not be Outsiders any more than Uriel and his crew are Outsiders... they would be three groups of Angels (Outsiders, Fallen, and Angels).
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The Outsiders definitely wanted Ethniu to win. She was there to kill Mab who's the leader of the forces guarding the gates.
And you've got it backwards. The Angels were originally Outsiders. The angelic faction is the splinter group that serves their leader, TWG, and helped form Creation.
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A more recent WOJ leaves it ambiguous about lower-order angels. Archangels being top-tier are not though - I specifically think this was to in relation to whether Lucifer had been infected by Nemesis, and Jim was shutting that down. It seems the Prince of Darkness is beyond such things, and is evil for his own reasons.
That said, I could understand if regular angels simply thought they were immutable. Same for all immortals.
The point being, Nemesis breaks the rules about immutability because it is so powerful (being a Walker of the Outside - I use that phrasing because Jim does most recently, which suggests being a Walker is more powerful than a normal Outsider). But Archangels seem to be just as powerful so perhaps that's why Nemesis can't infect them.
Ethniu herself might not have been infected by Nemesis (assuming she could) and I doubt she bowed her head to any being in the last few decades or centuries even. That said, Nemesis says the Outsiders "unleashed the primal forces of your Creation against you" - that is for sure Ethniu. Ethniu being an original member of Creation (perhaps even proceeding it, depending on how you look at it).
I'm pretty sure there was a WOJ that, at least, archangels aren't susceptible to Nemesis because their nature is immutable. Maybe he wasn't speaking to the lower orders of angels on that point because he just wanted to keep readers guessing, but the omission seems striking.
On the other hand, it's not impossible that some of the Fallen - being treacherous by nature - might make a calculated decision to go over to the other side for rewards under the new Outsider order, rather than being compelled by Nemesis. Or the infection might be of the host rather than the Fallen.
Regarding Namshiel though, I think he's the misdirect, with Tessa and/or Rosanna framing him as the Denarian turncoat. Marcone isn't an innate talent, or at least he's a very minor one if he has any juice at all - most of what he's doing relies on Namshiel's power. All it would have taken to ensure Nemesis' success in BG would have been for Namshiel to turn off the tap at the crucial moment. That suggest that while Namshiel is still a dick, he's acting on his own purposes rather than the Outsiders'.
As for Arctis Tor, we don't actually have Mab's reasoning for believing he was the attacker (for that matter, she didn't actively confirm Harry's guess that he was, either, she just stayed silent to it). But I don't think it would be beyond Tessa's abilities to cast a disguise that would pass for Namshiel so long as she didn't get too close to Mab. Just choose a spiny battle form instead of her usual one - or even cast a high quality illusion of one - fry some foot soldiers from a distance, and boom, you've got a patsy set up even if the attack fails.
Besides, on all the other occasions we've seen Namshiel fight, he seems to have a preference for more esoteric forms of magic over raw fire - I suspect it's an egotistical streak. I suppose it's possible the attacker really was Namshiel and he was just resorting to crude fire because it's a good counter to lots of Winter troops, but it seems more compelling that someone less talented was posing as Namshiel.
Agree with pretty much all of this.
I am curious how Namshiel allows his hosts to become such powerful sorcerers so quickly. From what I understand, the Fallen can't really given you anything you don't already have. They just show you how to tap into power you already have and nurture it. That said, Jim has been very inconsistent on the Denarians over the series. Certainly early on they seemed to be super-powered terminators. It used to be that it took decades if not centuries to turn a minor talent into a major one (I think that's said in Death Masks). Yet Marcone in a few short years (half a decade or so) is doing more complicated sorcery than Harry. He might not be as strong as Harry, but he seems WAY stronger than he should be. Which makes me wonder if Marcone had untapped talent or if Namshiel is simply understands sorcery so well he can transform any talent into a powerful being very quickly (perhaps even has special gifts in this regard).
I do really quite like the idea of someone setting up Namshiel for Mab to be angry at (along with the other Denarians) and Marcone paying the price, despite neither he nor Namshiel actually being involved. I am not saying it's actually what happened, but it would make for compelling reading.
They are I believe the same thing, the Outsiders split when they disagreed with creation, the Fallen split over the rise of humanity.
In that case the Hosts of the Fallen are already nemfected.
Do you believe Angels, Fallen and Outsiders are actually all the same beings? And you must also then include other primordial spirits that then became known as gods and monsters that existed before Creation began. Interesting idea, thinking of them all as simply different factions. And could well be correct. That said, Outsiders do seem to have a qualitative difference to every other being. But perhaps that just because they live Outside. I mean, you have to be right to some degree. Any being that proceeded the beginning of all Creation (the creation of the multiverse) is sort-of an Outsider, because that seems to be all there was Before Creation. Although it wasn't Outside "back then" it simply was everything that was.
Not sure it's what Jim has written. But I don't mind the idea at all.
I suspect this is the case because I don't think the fallen can be Nemfected directly.
Remember the Winter Lady wasn't infected (the mantle) rather the host was infected. Killing the host removed the Nemfection (or Molly is Nemfected...).
Keep in mind that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win, they wanted her to do damage and distract Harry so he would let one of them into the Well... the plan REQUIRES Harry to ultimately win and when Marcone could have turned traitor to let Ethniu win... the Outsiders wanted Ethniu to lose. So while I agree that Marcone and Namshiel are NOT Nemfected, I don't think this proves anything.
This can't be. All the outsiders work together (as near as the council can tell) with one will.
If the Outsiders were originally Angels and they split from the white god during creation and then later a second group of Angels split from the white god because he favored humans (with free will) they would be two distinct groups with two distinct goals and thoughts (as indicated by them splitting over different issues and at different times), they could cooperate the same as a host and Denarian can cooperate, but the fallen would not be Outsiders any more than Uriel and his crew are Outsiders... they would be three groups of Angels (Outsiders, Fallen, and Angels).
I agree that it's probably more likely the host is infected rather than the Fallen. But it wasn't so long ago on this very forum (and just about every other Jim Butcher discussion forum) prior to Battle Ground being released that most people firmly believed mortals COULDN'T be infected by Nemesis (despite rather clear evidence to the contrary, and the fact that Lily said revealed it in Cold Days). Only seeing an infected Justine convinced people. That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.
Not so sure that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win though. Nemesis talks about it being less of a plan than "an act of faith" in empty night. Nemesis seems to be a bit more Joker than Bane. Agents of chaos after all. Because say Ethniu did win, it would have left Demonreach undefended, and the Outsiders could have attacked the island just as they did in Cold Days, and no one would have been there to defend it.
Nothing to say Marcone isn't infected just yet. But not much to say that he is. He still seems to be acting the same way as he always does, which would suggest he isn't infected.
Why couldn't multiple spirit beings infect the same host? Harry has had more than one being in his own head! Unless I misunderstand you. Not saying I agree with CT's theory altogether, although technically all beings from Before Creation are Outsiders of a sort. Just seem to be vastly differing types!
The Outsiders definitely wanted Ethniu to win. She was there to kill Mab who's the leader of the forces guarding the gates.
And you've got it backwards. The Angels were originally Outsiders. The angelic faction is the splinter group that serves their leader, TWG, and helped form Creation.
Forgot that key part, but quite right. Mab being dead would have made for a very weak Winter - hence Mab's request to Harry.
There does seem to be some qualitative difference between those beings that are referred to as Outsiders, and other spirits from before Creation such as angels and gods. They all do seem rather familiar with each other though, certainly no love lost.
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I am curious how Namshiel allows his hosts to become such powerful sorcerers so quickly. From what I understand, the Fallen can't really given you anything you don't already have.
Lash gave Harry Hellfire...
I suspect Marcone gave Namshiel some control of his body/actions and that Namshiel was casting the spells in the same way that Lash was playing the guitar for Harry.
That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.
would be nice to have, it has been referred to a few times in this thread but actually including it would be better... I don't remember it from reading though the repository recently.
Not so sure that the Outsiders didn't want Ethniu to win though. Nemesis talks about it being less of a plan than "an act of faith" in empty night. Nemesis seems to be a bit more Joker than Bane. Agents of chaos after all. Because say Ethniu did win, it would have left Demonreach undefended, and the Outsiders could have attacked the island just as they did in Cold Days, and no one would have been there to defend it.
I think the outsiders wanted maximum damage to both sides and they wanted inside Demonreach... Mab dying would have been better for them then what they got, but they were happy with what they got right up until Harry figured out Justine... and I don't think they would have been happy with the Fomor at full power having won outright.
Nothing to say Marcone isn't infected just yet. But not much to say that he is. He still seems to be acting the same way as he always does, which would suggest he isn't infected.
agreed 100%
Why couldn't multiple spirit beings infect the same host? Harry has had more than one being in his own head! Unless I misunderstand you.
Not sure I understand you here so I think you misunderstand my point... multiple spirit beings could infect the same host. But Nemesis couldn't infect the Winter Lady's Mantle, it had to infect Maeve... when the mantle moved to Molly the infection didn't move. I think Nemesis could infect Nick, but not Anduriel... not a lot of practical difference until Nick dies and someone else picks up the coin... but a lot of difference there.
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I think Nicodemus directly said that Deidre is safe from the enemy here. Meaning they could get affected by outsiders nemesis. I think the fallen and The outsiders are not in the same page
When Nic said that he was refering to TWG... not Nemesis (he said adversary iirc)
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... Do you believe Angels, Fallen and Outsiders are actually all the same beings? And you must also then include other primordial spirits that then became known as gods and monsters that existed before Creation began. Interesting idea, thinking of them all as simply different factions. And could well be correct. That said, Outsiders do seem to have a qualitative difference to every other being. But perhaps that just because they live Outside. I mean, you have to be right to some degree. Any being that proceeded the beginning of all Creation (the creation of the multiverse) is sort-of an Outsider, because that seems to be all there was Before Creation. Although it wasn't Outside "back then" it simply was everything that was.
Not sure it's what Jim has written. But I don't mind the idea at all ...
The basic idea is pretty old in geekdom. I don't know of any specific "origin" or "oldest instance."
Most religious art is horribly unfaithful to Biblical accounts.
Here are some angels, if you take the Bible literally:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/sq4aov/biblically_accurate_angel/
Which, if I'm gonna be honest, vibe more for "Outsider" than for "Uriel &co" (at least as Jim has written them).
HOWEVER... recall the time Harry tried to use his Sight on an angel, early-on in Ghost Story -- the Angel shut him down! So maybe the "big reveal" would have been, "looks like any other Outsider."
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I agree that it's probably more likely the host is infected rather than the Fallen. But it wasn't so long ago on this very forum (and just about every other Jim Butcher discussion forum) prior to Battle Ground being released that most people firmly believed mortals COULDN'T be infected by Nemesis (despite rather clear evidence to the contrary, and the fact that Lily said revealed it in Cold Days). Only seeing an infected Justine convinced people. That said, there is a WOJ that deliberately is ambiguous when asked whether a Fallen could be infected. I can find it for you if you want.
I was always on the side that humans were susceptible just because it eliminates dramatic tension if Harry doesn't have to worry about most of his nearest and dearest.
That said, I'm still not entirely sure Justine isn't secretly a scion of something. There was a fairly old WOJ that there's something about her that Thomas knows and Harry doesn't, which either indicates he's known Nemesis had her hostage for several books worth of time and not done anything about it, or it's something about her background.
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Most religious art is horribly unfaithful to Biblical accounts.
Here are some angels, if you take the Bible literally:
https://www.reddit.com/r/oddlyterrifying/comments/sq4aov/biblically_accurate_angel/
Which, if I'm gonna be honest, vibe more for "Outsider" than for "Uriel &co" (at least as Jim has written them).
I don't think that is actually true. Most biblical accounts of Angels describe them as men. There are biblical accounts of people inviting strangers into their house and giving them a meal only for the stranger to reveal that they are an angel and do something miraculous. This is EXACTLY how Jim writes Uriel... looks just like a random normal human, no wings, nothing. (Genesis 19, Hebrews13:2, Numbers 22:31, Judges 6:11-12)
There are other accounts with stranger descriptions like:
Isaiah 6:2 "Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew."
Ezekiel 1:5-9 "And from the midst of it came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance: they had a human likeness, but each had four faces, and each of them had four wings. Their legs were straight, and the soles of their feet were like the sole of a calf's foot. And they sparkled like burnished bronze. Under their wings on their four sides they had human hands. And the four had their faces and their wings thus: their wings touched one another."
The images you linked appear to be from Ezekiel 10, but I wouldn't exactly call the images accurate to Ezekiel 10 either (Ezekiel 10:12 "Their entire bodies, including their backs, hands, and wings, were full of eyes all around, as were their four wheels", but it is repeatedly stated that the wheels were beside the Cheribum (verse 9: Then I looked and saw four wheels beside the cherubim, one wheel beside each cherub; verse 16: When the cherubim moved, the wheels moved beside them, and even when they spread their wings to rise from the ground, the wheels did not veer away from their side.)
There are a LOT of descriptions of Angels that are super short and describe the angel holding a sword in their hand ("And the angel of the Lord was standing by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite. And David lifted his eyes and saw the angel of the Lord standing between earth and heaven, and in his hand a drawn sword stretched out over Jerusalem.")
A being that can appear human, or can appear large enough to hold a sword over a city (with the intention of destroying the city), can be invisible, can enter and exit areas without going through doors or other perimeters... this is very consistent with both Jim's writing and the Bible... Jim is biblically inaccurate in a million other ways, but his depiction of angels is fine.
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Opinion or fact?
That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.
Page 330
"... wish there was another way," Nicodemus was saying quietly. "But you're the only one I can trust."
"I know, Father," Deirdre said. "It's all right."
"You will be safe from the Enemy here."
page 348
"I have one more question," I said.
"Mortals generally do."
"What will happen to Deirdre?"
Hades drew in his breath. His face became expressionless. For a long moment, I thought he wasn't going to answer, but then he said, "Relatively few new shades come into my realm these days. Foremost amongst them are those who perish in the gates -- particularly at the Gate of Blood. She will remain in my keeping."
"The things she's done," I said quietly. "The people she's hurt. And she gets to skate justice?"
page 346
"The funny part is that bit about her being protected from Hell," I said. "You brought her here and expected that she wouldn't get her sentence? Have you read Greek mythology? Do you know the kinds of things Hades sentences people to endure? At least Hell is, by all reports, more or less nondiscriminatory. Down here, they get personal. did you just try to give her a comforting lie at the last minute? Just to make sure she pulled the lever?"
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...
But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
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... looks just like a random normal human, no wings, nothing. (Genesis 19, Hebrews13:2, Numbers 22:31, Judges 6:11-12)
Genesis 19:1-2 clearly speaks to angels who appear identical to men.
The translation of Hebrews 13:2 is debated -- the original meaning may not even be "angels," as the literal translation there is "messenger" and some suggest the original Koine verse may just have meant mundane messengers and similarly-important (but genuinely-human) visitors.
In Numbers 22:21-30, the angel was at first invisible to Balaam; only his donkey saw it (and was terrified... so the angel clearly did NOT look like a random normal human). Numbers 22:31 actually specifies nothing about the appearance of the angel: "Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown." Between the terror of the donkey and Balaam himself "falling facedown," I think this speaks to an inherently-frightening appearance, not even slightly normal or human.
Judges 6:11-13 again has no description of the angel; but neither is there any description of terror or an overawing appearance. Indeed, Gideon immediately begins arguing with the angel, even demanding proof! I think "looks human" to be (by far) the most-likely understanding of the text.
All of which only shows that angels can look human... sometimes.
Equally, they can look entirely non-human.
Rather famously, one of the most-common things for angels in the bible is to introduce themselves with "fear not." I take the straightforward conclusion that most angels have a frightening and/or inhuman appearance.
There is some evidence that angels can appear to be human, when it suits their divine mission; but that this is not their true form (this line of evidence rather supports the Hebrews 13:2 translation of "angel" as being correct -- the divine beings wanted to appear human).
A being that can appear human, or can appear large enough to hold a sword over a city (with the intention of destroying the city), can be invisible, can enter and exit areas without going through doors or other perimeters... this is very consistent with both Jim's writing and the Bible... Jim is biblically inaccurate in a million other ways, but his depiction of angels is fine.
I wasn't saying Jim is inaccurate in portraying angels. Jim has taken Uriel, whom he defines as "God's spook" (i.e. most covert angel) as his primary Harry-facing angel; for Uriel (and his angelic underlings) to always appear as human seems entirely-biblical!
My criticism was of most "religious art" which overwhelmingly portrays angels as human-like, in explicit contradiction of biblical accounts (and of the follow-on effects in pop-culture and most people's "cherubic" understanding).
I think you're correct that the art I linked took its inspiration from Ezekiel -- note that Ezekiel was talking about cherubs! Courtesy of religious art, we "know" exactly what that looks like; in fact we use ancillary words like "cherubic" which we take to describe particularly-sweet-looking children! Now that's a spit-take!
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That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.
Page 330
page 348
page 346
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...
But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
Sorry, but ... you just demonstrated that it was only your opinion, not a "fact:"
But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
Equally, there is nothing to counter the equally-valid understanding of Outsiders being the "Enemy" Nic was mentioning. Your opinion is that everyone was talking about TWG... but there's a strong case to be made that that wasn't true, that Nic's "Enemy" was the Outsider-threat, which seems to be the looming Apocalypse of the series.
Harry is wrong a lot.
And Jim seems very happy to regularly channel Obi-wan's "... from a certain point of view" rhetoric.
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Sorry, but ... you just demonstrated that it was only your opinion, not a "fact:"
It is my opinion, Harry’s opinion, Hades’ opinion, and Nic reacted emotionally to it as a father to the truth, and realized that Harry was a father because of it…
The word Enemy referring to TWG is as close to a fact as anything in the books. You can take any fact in the books and create a theory that states that that fact is wrong and everyone is mistaken about it... and one of those theories may even be right (for example everyone thinks Ghosts are Echos and not souls, everyone could be wrong (and Harry WAS a soul in GS and everyone thought he was a ghost)) but those theories can't be used to support other theories, they don't provide support. They might be true despite their lack of support, but until they are supported they don't provide support.
Regardless Nic took the coin with him so we are talking about Diedre’s safety not the safety of the fallen so it doesn’t speak to this theory either way.
Edit: Sorry Mods.
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Numbers 22:31 actually specifies nothing about the appearance of the angel: "Then the Lord opened Balaam’s eyes, and he saw the angel of the Lord standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown." Between the terror of the donkey and Balaam himself "falling facedown," I think this speaks to an inherently-frightening appearance, not even slightly normal or human.
We know that he was standing (legs and feet) and had a sword drawn (arms and hands) and that the author didn’t feel the need to specify anything else about him (generally human and normal height etc)
But I think we are generally in agreement… just wanted to explain why I referenced passages like that.
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it is my opinion, Harry’s opinion, Hades’ opinion, and Nic reacted emotionally to it as a father to the truth, and realized that Harry was a father because of it…
Hades only spoke to the fact that he would be responsible for enacting whatever punishment Deirdre faced; he didn't address anything relevant to whatever "enemy" Nic was mentioning, whom Deidre would be "safe" from.
Similarly, Nic was reacting to having his nose rubbed in the fact that he'd condemned his own daughter to an eternity of punishment by Hades. The fact that Harry was presuming the alternative was the biblical "hell" doesn't mean that Harry was right, nor even that Nic believed Harry was right...
What's Nic gonna do, with Harry's words about his daughter's fate fresh in his mind? Go, "Ha-Ha, that wasn't the fate or the Enemy I meant! Checkmate, you damn bleeding-heart!" ???
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What's Nic gonna do, with Harry's words about his daughter's fate fresh in his mind? Go, "Ha-Ha, that wasn't the fate or the Enemy I meant! Checkmate, you damn bleeding-heart!" ???
As I said, even if you were right you would be wrong.
Nic took the coin and left the human soul of Diedre in Hades. The entire conversation is about the human portion not the fallen. The human portion is vulnerable to nimfection. Everyone agrees. The soul is not vulnerable to nimfection, in hell or hades underworld… your argument can’t support itself. If he was talking about nemesis the comment is meaningless because the dead don’t worry about nimfection… and the human part would be vulnerable regardless and the fallen portion isn’t part of Nic’s comment…
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That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
Here are all the relevant quotes I could find in a quick search, page numbers taken from the Hard back Edition, it starts around chapter 40.
Page 330page 348page 346
I mean, I guess Harry could have read the reference wrong and jumped to a wrong conclusion and Nic just played along with it...
But there is nothing there to suggest he was talking about HHW-Beside over Harry's interpretation of TWG.
That Nic is referring to TWG in that scene?
FACT.
Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.
And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).
He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.
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Just to be clear - facts are statements of nigh-indisputable truth. I am not sure that applies here. Mostly people say fact when what they really mean is collective opinion on a topic. Neither I would say apply here, to be honest.
And while I agree it is most likely the White God that Nicodemus is referring to, it isn't fact YET. That would require some exposition like Nicodemus saying to Dresden "The Enemy I fight against is The Almighty himself" or something along those lines, or Jim saying in an interview that the Enemy that Nic was referring to was TWG. But we don't have either of those. We just have speculation - which is deliberate on Jim's part (otherwise he wouldn't have used the label "The Enemy" and just said whoever Nic's great enemy is).
He could mean Lucifer, or an Outsider/Old One, or some other being we don't know of. The point is, the identity of Nic's "Enemy" is up for debate still and will be until we get further evidence.
I will give you that he could be referring to Lucifer. I should clarify... when I said fact it was with two stipulations. First that the options were Fact or Opinion. Within that dichotomy it is more accurate to say Fact. Second the fact is that Enemy isn't a reference to Nemesis rather than that enemy is a reference to TWG.
If the discussion were about Enemy meaning Lucifer or TWG I wouldn't have claimed it was a fact.
If the question wasn't asked (Fact or Opinion) I wouldn't have claimed it was a fact.
I probably shouldn't have claimed it was a fact, or at least not claimed it as hard as I did. I should have said it was more a fact than an opinion.
Enemy isn't a name for Nemesis. Adversary is. And that line can't be read as a reference to Nemesis even if Enemy was a name of Nemesis because the coin isn't left, the fallen isn't left, and dead mortals don't fear Nemesis...
I find it unlikely that Enemy refers to Lucifer, I find it impossible that it refers to nemesis.
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As I said, even if you were right you would be wrong.
Nic took the coin and left the human soul of Diedre in Hades. The entire conversation is about the human portion not the fallen. The human portion is vulnerable to nimfection. Everyone agrees. The soul is not vulnerable to nimfection, in hell or hades underworld… your argument can’t support itself. If he was talking about nemesis the comment is meaningless because the dead don’t worry about nimfection… and the human part would be vulnerable regardless and the fallen portion isn’t part of Nic’s comment…
What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
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What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
lol
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What if Deirdre was nemfected? Still resisting, not giving in; but with a 2nd spiritual tempter/coercer in her head, trying to make her betray Creation and her father and all that?
It was a masterstroke by Nicodemus -- he removes a potent Nemfection from the ranks of the Fallen, and from Creation itself (so the Fallen can advance their own plans, which the Outsider plans would ruin); he saves his daughter from the Nemesis within her; and he gets a new Denarius that hasn't been in-play for a thousand years!
This is an interesting idea, but why would Dierdre have agreed to it? If she was nemfected she would have to be resisting that infection to agree to be murdered to be freed from it, which is a rather extreme cure in any case. I think I would rather be put in one of Mab's ice cubes and hope I didn't freeze to death.
My problem with this being the case is we have no reason to suggest that Dierdre had as much ability to resist being taken over than Lea or Cat Sith. Lea just held herself together long enough to get Mab's help and Nemesis pretty much crushed Cat Sith's efforts to remain himself. It's not an impossible idea, it just seems a bit far fetched to me.
Now as far as whether Nicodemus was referring to TWG or Nemesis I have a question or two. Why would Diedre need protection from the Nemesis once she's dead? She can't be nemfected any longer, so why would her spirit care? Unless Nicodemus meant that Hades would be safe even if Nemesis and the Outsiders won and took over. That seems an odd thought, but I suppose it's possible. Then again, if that was the case, wouldn't all afterlife realms be safe? Dierdre wouldn't be any less safe from the Nemesis if she was in Hell. For those reasons, I tend to lean towards the idea that Nic was referring to TWG.
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This is an interesting idea, but why would Dierdre have agreed to it? If she was nemfected she would have to be resisting that infection to agree to be murdered to be freed from it, which is a rather extreme cure in any case. I think I would rather be put in one of Mab's ice cubes and hope I didn't freeze to death.
My problem with this being the case is we have no reason to suggest that Dierdre had as much ability to resist being taken over than Lea or Cat Sith. Lea just held herself together long enough to get Mab's help and Nemesis pretty much crushed Cat Sith's efforts to remain himself. It's not an impossible idea, it just seems a bit far fetched to me.
To be fair though, Lea and Sith are Fae. And as Harry amply shows, when it comes to wilful denial of reality (and temptation) humans can beat anyone. They don't always, but they can.