ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on January 30, 2023, 07:42:19 PM
-
Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her. If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?
-
Because she is afraid Harry will change her.
Harry’s impact on Molly has changed or unlocked previously unforeseen potential in the Winter Lady’s Mantle (The Good People) and he has ‘corrupted’ the Shadow of a Fallen Angel, bound the Little Folk and Alfred and shaped the new Knight of the Cross, the worlds most powerful Ectomancer and both Ladies. it must be a concern of Mab what his influence is on her and her mantle.
She therefore wants Harry to be more familiar but Harry is a Destroyer and her Doom, bringing change and change is coming. It’s rather ironic that Harry hates change but is a harbinger of it.
-
I think it is more that gets the results that she, herself wants but is unable to order because of who she is. Slate would follow orders until he betrayed her, but the results of his following orders were not good.
-
Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her. If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?
I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.
As for why? Because she's Mab. She is Callous and Cruel, and Cold, and Ruthless beyond measure- and she firmly believes that is the best way to be for her purposes.
Tldr: Mab is a Hard Sidhe making Hard Decisions while Hard.
-
I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.
I disagree, her coldness and hardness are needed, however while she may not admit it to him, she also needs his conscience and compassion to unite for the final BAT. That is why she backed him at the meeting of the Accords after the battle for Chicago. Harry was the only one who could get those concessions, she wouldn't know how, but she is astute enough to know they were needed.
-
As I said, Harry is changing Mab and her Mantle, or at least unlocking new potential far more than she or his Mantle is changing Harry. Again look at the interplay between Mab and Molly in the Good People, Molly is forcing something new on Mab and neither Mantle is stopping it, and that makes Mab uncomfortable. Has she been wrong for over a millenia?
-
As I said, Harry is changing Mab and her Mantle, or at least unlocking new potential far more than she or his Mantle is changing Harry. Again look at the interplay between Mab and Molly in the Good People, Molly is forcing something new on Mab and neither Mantle is stopping it, and that makes Mab uncomfortable. Has she been wrong for over a millenia?
I don't think she has been wrong per say, she has managed to keep this world safe. However the world has changed over the millenia, so tactics have to change as well. Mab was human once, but most of that humanity has left her, she is 99.99% Fae now, so she lacks understanding. I actually think Molly will help her more in this than Harry because she is less confrontational than Harry is.
-
It’s good cop bad cop with Molly and Harry. Molly is the perfect subject and Winter Lady, and Harry consistently, persistently continues to be Harry, a terrible subject but a wonderful Winter Knight. Molly mollifies Mab, Harry harries Mab. Both force change on her at a time when she needs to change. Their predecessors bad as they were merely helped reinforce Mab’s existing status quo. When Mab hired Harry back in Summer Knight did she expect this? Be careful for you wish for Mab.
-
It’s good cop bad cop with Molly and Harry. Molly is the perfect subject and Winter Lady, and Harry consistently, persistently continues to be Harry, a terrible subject but a wonderful Winter Knight. Molly mollifies Mab, Harry harries Mab. Both force change on her at a time when she needs to change. Their predecessors bad as they were merely helped reinforce Mab’s existing status quo. When Mab hired Harry back in Summer Knight did she expect this? Be careful for you wish for Mab.
Yeah, I think Mab is well aware of this, that is why she is pleased when Harry stands up to her, even if it does piss her off a bit. I think Heaven is aware of it also, that is why I think Uriel helped maneuver Harry into the job and do what needed to be done to keep him in it. I think Uriel had a little something to do with that bullet that Kincaid shot. While it did hit Harry's heart, it was off just enough for Harry to survive falling into the cold water and Mab's waiting arms... Then the soul walk about, and last but not least his seven little words that made Harry realize he was still basically his own man..
-
I don't think she does want him to succumb. She wants him to fight it, and in doing so become a colder, more ruthless version of himself. Keep the will and defiance (because those are useful) and get rid of those silly useless things like Conscience and Compassion that reduce his effectiveness.
As for why? Because she's Mab. She is Callous and Cruel, and Cold, and Ruthless beyond measure- and she firmly believes that is the best way to be for her purposes.
Tldr: Mab is a Hard Sidhe making Hard Decisions while Hard.
The will and defiance are tied to the consciene and compassion. You don’t get the former without the latter. Surely Mab is bright enough to realize that basic fact?
-
The will and defiance are tied to the consciene and compassion. You don’t get the former without the latter. Surely Mab is bright enough to realize that basic fact?
She is, but the last person she'd admit it to is Harry. But she shows it in small ways, like little Maggie's Christmas gift, because she also knows that Harry would never accept the fact that she realizes it.
-
Maybe Mab isn't trying to change Harry. Harry's defining characteristic is his Will, he has overcome dozens of foes that should have beaten him, but he is still around and doing his thing. Mab is forcing Harry to make hard choices and make sacrifices, all while knowing Harry is going to fight her every step of the way. Harry is a knight worth Mab's trouble because he won't cave to Mab's desires. In Cold Days(?) Harry says something to the effect of, "You can't afford a mediocre knight" sorry don't have the exact quote at hand. Most every knight before Harry has been a mindless thug (yes, there are exceptions but not many); Harry won't get to this point because of his Will. Harry Will's himself through big bad after big bad, not because he is the strongest or the smartest in every fight but because he believes it is right and those big bads need to be put down or because it was Right. By Mab pinning Harry into corners and making him make choices, she is sharpening his Will and focusing him on her enemies and on what she thinks needs to be done. Harry will and has gone along with this because he realizes that even though Mab is evil, she is the evil humanity needs. Harry will continue to face down Mab's foes because it is right, and he will come out on top because of his strength of Will, and it's what he needs to do to protect his family, friends, and world. A tangible example of this is when Harry describes "fighting" Mother Winter in CD as a grain of sand against an ocean; the grain of sand can be pushed around but will not break. Harry will not break, he may need to be strengthened and supported, but he won't break or bend that is what Mab needs.
-
Mab isn't trying to change Harry; or if she is, only gently.
Yes, gently.
I know, right?
Mab?
Gently??!?
HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!<gasp><wheeze>
"Gently" as in: how a master-smith makes a damascene'd blade.
It involves intense fire, and a hammer; but it needs the right materials and must be done carefully... gently.
Mab needs her Knight to be the master of the WK mantle; but the mantle is incredibly powerful, and mostly becomes the master of the Knight (as it did with Lloyd Slate).
So she is forging her knight with intense methods, but carefully-crafted ones, and (however much it doesn't feel like it to Harry) she's being gentle.
Because if Harry breaks, she needs as much time as possible to craft a new Knight.
Because the Stars and Stones are coming soon.
-
"Gently" as in: how a master-smith makes a damascene'd blade.
It involves intense fire, and a hammer; but it needs the right materials and must be done carefully... gently.
Yes, and many layers of the right combo of metals, percentage of carbon, intense heat, yes, but too hot or too cold and the sword will not quench properly, it can become brittle and break or never harden and sharpen properly... There are many layers to Harry, he is a complex man, he is in the fire being brought up to temperature, but yet to be quenched... Will he become a strong sharp blade? Or will he be warped by the process or turn out brittle and break in the final test?
-
Several times Mab has said things like “finally a knight worth the trouble” when Harry defies her. If his defiance and strength are so useful to her why would she want him to simply succumb to the beastial urges of the Winter Mantle as Harry keeps implying or saying in the books since he has become the Winter Knight?
I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.
-
I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.
I wouldn't say he causes trouble in the cases you sighted.. In the case of Aurora, she was infected and started a war between Summer and Winter, yeah, getting her killed pissed off her mother, but she knew it had to be done. What pissed her of is how it was done, the little folk using steel box cutters. He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.
-
I don't know how much she is trying to change him. He's a powerful agent without the mantle. With the mantle, he's likely far more powerful than most past Winter Knights. But that will and power...he's not an iron hand in a velvet glove, he's an iron hand in a spiked cestus. He is going to piss off Summer - getting the Lady killed will do that. He will piss off some other powers - like the Red court. Remember them? He causes trouble. But Mab will take the trouble to have his abilities.
Mab thrives on conflict & violence; all of Winter does. Remember Harry's experience of the WK Mantle -- violence. Molly's testimony is that it's the same. Mother Winter took a cleaver to Harry. I think we can be confident that Mab's own Wintery urges are similarly violent & bloody. She's just very, very self-controlled.
Also, remember that most of Winter is actually out very-deep in the Nevernever, fighting at the Outer Gates... most of Summer is Mortal-centric (in the mortal realm or the close-in Nevernever), and Winter only keeps enough of their forces in similar positions to be able to match Summer.... Mab is the warleader for the mortal realms, she is all about war.
She may lay deep & subtle plans -- particularly as compared to Harry -- but she finds Harry's propensity for mayhem & anarchy to be both useful (in uncovering hidden forces) and likely very sympathetic to her own drives toward violence.
... He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.
He did "make" the trouble with the Ramps; Vamp's are always trouble, as you say. They were not ready to actually declare war on the WC, though -- Harry forced their hand, he "made" the trouble.
Thing is... they were actually already planning to go to war, they just had planned another decade or two of prep-work before striking; their war-effort was unready, their early strikes less devastating than planned. So (as he so often does) Harry's propensity for violence + investigation led him to act in ways too provocative for the Ramps to ignore, and they moved early.
As he often ends up doing, Harry uncovered an Evil Plan(tm) to the benefit of his allies (one must admit, being attacked by a nation of supermonsters with addictive spittle didn't feel like a "benefit" to the White Council).
-
Thing is... they were actually already planning to go to war, they just had planned another decade or two of prep-work before striking; their war-effort was unready, their early strikes less devastating than planned. So (as he so often does) Harry's propensity for violence + investigation led him to act in ways too provocative for the Ramps to ignore, and they moved early.
That's a bit more complicated though.. Bianca invited Harry to her party.. He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea. He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before. Remember Mavra had a little something to do with Harry, Michael, and Susan not leaving the shindig. When Harry went to rescue Susan and Justine, Ortega just happened to be there to blame it all on him and declare war.. If anyone was the blame it would be Bianca, who wanted revenge on Harry because she blamed him for her losing control and killing her beloved secretary. Shiro did tell later that Bianca miscalculated, because her actions forced the Red Court into war before they were ready.
-
... He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea. He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before ...
I suspect it was already a set up.
I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party. I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK. So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.
-
I suspect it was already a set up.
I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party. I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK. So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.
I doubt it was Mab. Remember Harry's total fear of Lea at that point? He was afraid she was going to turn him into a hound. That's why he tried to kill her with Michael's Sword, which it wouldn't let him do. It fell out of his hands and she picked it up and took off with it, remember? At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description. The Knife that turned out to be infected with Nemesis. Which in turn infected Lea, infected Maeve and led to her death, and may have tried to infect Mab until she figured out what was going on.. No, it wasn't Mab that set up Harry.
Here is my theory, I have posted it before. When we first meet Lea, she appeared to me to be a bit power hungry. When she got hold of the Sword, she made a bargain with Bianca, the Holy Sword, for the Knife. She thought that the Knife would help her overthrow Mab. I don't think Lea had any idea that the Knife was infected, but I do believe that Bianca knew. Not sure how she knew of the Knife, but Cowl seemed to be merely the delivery man in this case. Also remember Harry telling Morgan in Dead Beat I believe, that the Red Court were mere cat's paws of a more powerful group. That will be who Cowl works for, though we don't know who that is yet. Bianca, as arrogant as she was and ambitious as she was, wouldn't have realized that she was being used, nor frankly did Lea.
The plan was to take out the Winter Court by stealth with the infected knife, while occupying the Red Court and the White Council with fighting a war. The guard at the Outer Gates would perhaps be down and the Outsiders could attack. Not unlike during the battle for Chicago, the Outer Gates were attacked. Hmmmm, looks like the Fomor and even Ethniu herself were only cat's paws in the end to distract with that huge battle. Thank goodness for Rashid, who kept to his post.
-
I am very curious to hear from Rashid after Harry’s expulsion from the White Council. Would he have been involved in the “emergency Senior Council” meeting? Or was that only The Merlin, Mai, Christos, and Martha Liberty? He had offered to get Harry “reinstated” after his recesitation from his coma. He told Harry at the Outer Gates to “if you want to help me keep doing what you are doing”. I’m very interested in what Rashid will have to say about all of this. Including what the “Stars and Stones” actually are.
-
I am very curious to hear from Rashid after Harry’s expulsion from the White Council. Would he have been involved in the “emergency Senior Council” meeting? Or was that only The Merlin, Mai, Christos, and Martha Liberty? He had offered to get Harry “reinstated” after his recesitation from his coma. He told Harry at the Outer Gates to “if you want to help me keep doing what you are doing”. I’m very interested in what Rashid will have to say about all of this. Including what the “Stars and Stones” actually are.
Rashid was very busy at the Outer Gates, I'd say the crisis there hadn't passed. I don't think Rashid would have voted for Harry to be removed, I think he knows a lot more than he is letting on and as we saw in Summer Knight has his own tests for Harry.
Interesting don't you think the only Senior Council Members voting were ones i.e. the Merlin who actually ended up on the short end of a political clash with Harry. The others were at the battle for Chicago, and at least one of them was disturbed by the fact that Harry had his own loyal private army, even if they were only six inches tall give or take. They were effective against the flying squid things where these powerful senior wizards were not. I think that scared the hell out of them.
-
My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.
He may have therefore voted with the Merlin’s Block to create a Starborn Wizard, but then surprised the Merlin by voting against Harry’s execution. His long term aim to end up with the Harry we know to challenge the Merlin.
He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion so as to facilitate it,
-
My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.
He may have therefore voted with the Merlin’s Block to create a Starborn Wizard, but then surprised the Merlin by voting against Harry’s execution. His long term aim to end up with the Harry we know to challenge the Merlin.
He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion so as to facilitate it,
All possible, but I think it was pretty clear that Rashid had his hands full at the Gates. Remember what Rashid told Harry in Turn Coat, that the time hadn't come yet for him tom challenge the Council, meaning not that he is discounting Harry's challenge at Molly's trial, but something bigger to come.. I hope Jim remembers too.. ::)
-
I wouldn't say he causes trouble in the cases you sighted.. In the case of Aurora, she was infected and started a war between Summer and Winter, yeah, getting her killed pissed off her mother, but she knew it had to be done. What pissed her of is how it was done, the little folk using steel box cutters. He didn't make the trouble with the Red Court they have been trouble for a millennia, but he finished it.
He may not START the trouble, but he escalates it with his handling. He sees a mosquito on the wall - and hits it with a hammer. Leaving a big dent. Bianca stirs up trouble - and Harry burns the place down. Bull in a china shop moves. Harry's not a thrust of a rapier, he's a two handed strike with a claymore. It is not unnoticed... I believe at one point Marcone wants someone killed, and Harry wants the guy just stopped. And Marcone gives harry info. Harry says he does not intend to kill him - and Marcone replies he has seen what happens to those who oppose Harry, he will take his chances.
-
Mab thrives on conflict & violence; all of Winter does.
I'd say it is better said Mab thrives IN conflict and violence - but she chooses her spots. Mother Winter was more likely TESTING Harry than trying to kill him - like when Mab set her tests during Harry's recovery. Smothering him with a pillow? That's a test. The Summer Lady went flamethrower on him - THAT is an attempt to kill. Mab is a creature of rules, too. Mab is all about being READY for war. Even her war a the Gates is a defensive one. I wonder how her relationship is with the Gatekeeper? I'd be interested to see THAT dynamic...
-
Bianca invited Harry to her party.. He wasn't going to go, then Susan stole the invitation and he screwed up and lost Michael's Sword to Lea. He and Michael had to go to the party, from that moment on it was a set up,if not before.
I suspect it was already a set up.
I'm not sure whose set up it was; I suspect Mab, tho -- Lea's boss -- having Lea get Harry motivated to go to Bianca's party. I remain convinced that Mab was deeply interested in recruiting a Starborn -- Harry -- as her next WK. So Mab was both testing his mettle, and tempering him in the crucible of violence & confusion.
Want to turn up the volume in the conspiracy? Rashid Saw something. He reminded Mab or Lea that the Council should make an appearance, it is a political point - and who is in town? Harry.... (cue "Burning down the house")
Remember, Noah was only a conspiracy theorist - until it started to rain.
-
My theory on Rashid is that because of his advanced foresight he will sometimes vote against Harry’s apparent interests to secure in the long-term what is in Harry’s best interests.
He may have deliberately NOT attended the meeting on Harry’s expulsion so as to facilitate it,
Plausible deniability - his position is still unknown.
-
I'd say it is better said Mab thrives IN conflict and violence - but she chooses her spots. Mother Winter was more likely TESTING Harry than trying to kill him - like when Mab set her tests during Harry's recovery. Smothering him with a pillow? That's a test. The Summer Lady went flamethrower on him - THAT is an attempt to kill. Mab is a creature of rules, too. Mab is all about being READY for war. Even her war a the Gates is a defensive one. I wonder how her relationship is with the Gatekeeper? I'd be interested to see THAT dynamic...
Yes, she is about being ready for war, because an apocalypse is coming to the world's neighborhood.
-
I doubt it was Mab. Remember Harry's total fear of Lea at that point? He was afraid she was going to turn him into a hound ...
But fear is an intense motivator, a great lever to move someone to action.
And Mab is a master at manipulation; and Lea is Mab's Handmaiden...
... At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description. The Knife that turned out to be infected with Nemesis. Which in turn infected Lea, infected Maeve and led to her death, and may have tried to infect Mab until she figured out what was going on.. No, it wasn't Mab that set up Harry.
Nemesis is incredibly hard to detect; I don't think Mab knew the hidden peril at Bianca's court.
Hell, I don't think Bianca herself understood it; she was a pawn on the board of much stronger players, playing a much deeper game.
... Here is my theory, I have posted it before. When we first meet Lea, she appeared to me to be a bit power hungry ...
More than "a bit," I think! ;)
But note that Mab likes her that way; it's probably a major component of why she picked Lea as her "handmaiden." Lea & her ambition is a key part of Mab's own regimen to keep herself at the top of her game.
... At the party Lea gave Bianca the Sword, and Bianca gifted Lea with the Knife that Cowl had presented to her.. Or someone fitting Cowl's description ... When she got hold of the Sword, she made a bargain with Bianca, the Holy Sword, for the Knife. She thought that the Knife would help her overthrow Mab. I don't think Lea had any idea that the Knife was infected, but I do believe that Bianca knew ...
I don't think there was an overt sword-for-knife "bargain."
Remember, Bianca didn't have the knife when Lea took the sword. I think it was when Lea gained Amoracchius that Cowl let Bianca know he could provide her with a gift commensurate with the one she was about to be offered.
I don't doubt Lea was planning on getting something from Bianca; but she may have been open to any roughly-equal-exchange (bringing the Sword entitled her to receive a very strong gift in return! (recall that Winter Law requires Lea to expect this (or exact retribution); the Ramps will know this, and even blind-with-ambition-Bianca would think twice about earning the enmity of the Leanansidhe)), or Lea may have had something else in mind, some item from Bianca's treasury. I think the cues in that scene suggest that Lea was a bit surprised -- and more than a little pleased -- at what she got.
But frankly, I think Bianca was too low-level to be told about Nemesis, and the true nature of the curse on the blade. She just knew it as the Athame of Morgana LeFey, an incredibly-potent magical implement; that's enough for Bianca (it was enough for Lea, when she realized she had Morgana's Athame). Nemesis was still hidden. Remember: Ferrovax himself was there, and almost certainly would have taken exception to Nemesis or any other Outsider-influence (WoJ puts the Great Dragons as part of fine-tuning the world -- on the level of raising mountain ranges etc -- which puts them pretty firmly into the anti-Outsider camp).
-
But frankly, I think Bianca was too low-level to be told about Nemesis, and the true nature of the curse on the blade. She just knew it as the Athame of Morgana LeFey, an incredibly-potent magical implement; that's enough for Bianca (it was enough for Lea, when she realized she had Morgana's Athame). Nemesis was still hidden. Remember: Ferrovax himself was there, and almost certainly would have taken exception to Nemesis or any other Outsider-influence (WoJ puts the Great Dragons as part of fine-tuning the world -- on the level of raising mountain ranges etc -- which puts them pretty firmly into the anti-Outsider camp).
You could be right about Bianca, but then again as my brother in law says, "she is just smart enough to be stupid." If Cowl or some other agent of Nemesis was able to convince her that to enable the infection of Winter, why wouldn't she go for it? I doubt that she would have thought it through. Lets not forget this is the woman who fed upon her beloved secretary until she died and then blamed Harry for it because he pissed her off.
As for Ferrofax, I doubt that he'd care one way or the other about what the lessor beings around him were doing, or Nemesis. He demonstrated that in Peace Talks, he has his own selfish reasons for doing what he does, and at Bianca's party he was there only for the gold.
I don't doubt Lea was planning on getting something from Bianca; but she may have been open to any roughly-equal-exchange (bringing the Sword entitled her to receive a very strong gift in return! (recall that Winter Law requires Lea to expect this (or exact retribution); the Ramps will know this, and even blind-with-ambition-Bianca would think twice about earning the enmity of the Leanansidhe)), or Lea may have had something else in mind, some item from Bianca's treasury. I think the cues in that scene suggest that Lea was a bit surprised -- and more than a little pleased -- at what she got.
You gotta look at the context, what Lea said pages before the party.. Even if she was surprised by Bianca's gift, it doesn't change her pleasure.. Why? Because it brought her power, not for her Queen, but for her.. Also interesting that when she did give it up, she gave it to Maeve, her Lady, not Mab, her Queen.. Hmmm... Do I smell a conspiracy that backfired because neither realized the Knife was infected?
But fear is an intense motivator, a great lever to move someone to action.
And Mab is a master at manipulation; and Lea is Mab's Handmaiden...
Yes, but no connection to Harry trying to kill Lea with a Holy Sword, then losing it to her because of that.. Which set off events that actually made things worse for Winter. Not Mab's style.
Nemesis is incredibly hard to detect; I don't think Mab knew the hidden peril at Bianca's court.
Hell, I don't think Bianca herself understood it; she was a pawn on the board of much stronger players, playing a much deeper game.
As I said, Bianca was just smart enough to be stupid, and she was the pawn that ultimately led to the total check mate/end game for the Red Court.
More than "a bit," I think! ;)
But note that Mab likes her that way; it's probably a major component of why she picked Lea as her "handmaiden." Lea & her ambition is a key part of Mab's own regimen to keep herself at the top of her game.
With in reason, there are lines that Mab won't allow to be crossed. Lea knew that, I think when she realized she was infected she confessed to Mab and pleaded for both a cure and forgiveness.. However she didn't apparently confess to giving the Knife over to Maeve in time for Mab to cure her as well. That, or Maeve was much more vulnerable to the infection than Lea was.
-
As for Ferrofax, I doubt that he'd care one way or the other about what the lessor beings around him were doing, or Nemesis. He demonstrated that in Peace Talks, he has his own selfish reasons for doing what he does, and at Bianca's party he was there only for the gold.
No, I think Ferrovax would be interested in Nemesis. He might think he is amongst children, but he would pay interest if it is children playing with dynamite. Like Battle of Chicago, he pays attention when the events are big enough it can affect dragons.
-
No, I think Ferrovax would be interested in Nemesis. He might think he is amongst children, but he would pay interest if it is children playing with dynamite. Like Battle of Chicago, he pays attention when the events are big enough it can affect dragons.
That's the my point, he didn't do anything during the Battle of Chicago. As far as children playing with dynamite, unless he was about to blow up himself, he could care less.
-
That's the my point, he didn't do anything during the Battle of Chicago. As far as children playing with dynamite, unless he was about to blow up himself, he could care less.
Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.
-
Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.
Ferro did the most in that fight by not fighting. Reality cant take a Dragon going all out. He was also holding reality together so that everyone else could fight
In my mind when ferro volunteers to go to the neverever the little guys were thinking coward, while the SC and other heavy hitters were grantful
-
Yes he did. He was offscreen locking down the Never-never to stop the fomor from invading though there.
Meanwhile it was Rashid holding down the fort where the real danger was, the Gates..
-
Meanwhile it was Rashid holding down the fort where the real danger was, the Gates..
Rashid could not have done what Ferro did. And Rashid had the majority of Winter's forces, including the big hitters like Lea to help at the Gates. If you go and reread PT, Ferro takes the job of blocking Ethniu and the Formor from using the NeverNever as an assault route solo. In BG, Bob says that the power being used for that threatens the fabric of reality. The dragons seem akin to the hydroelectric dams of the world. What they do is boring to watch, but just the trickle they let through runs everything and what they are restraining could destroy everything.
-
You could be right about Bianca, but then again as my brother in law says, "she is just smart enough to be stupid." If Cowl or some other agent of Nemesis was able to convince her that to enable the infection of Winter, why wouldn't she go for it? I doubt that she would have thought it through.
"Just smart enough to be stupid" is right; I too doubt she'd have thought it through. But her handlers -- the ones using her as a pawn -- also realize this. Why in the world would they give someone that "smart" such critical information, as the Nemesis-curse on the Athame??!?
I really only see one way Bianca could have known about Nemesis in the knife, and it's based on one of my less-likely WAGs: that the Ramps themselves are Outsider-kin, empowered/accursed by Outsider energies. The WAG is based largely upon names (which have power), particularly "Outer:" what if the "Lords of Outer Night" come in some part from the "Outer Gates"??? It is perhaps a feeble thread, but it's a thread.
If that were the case -- if Bianca was part-Outsider -- then maybe Bianca might have had some instinctive/intuitive "feel" for the Outsider energy in the Athame...
Lets not forget this is the woman who fed upon her beloved secretary until she died and then blamed Harry for it because he pissed her off.
Frankly, that's just classic bully/abuser gaslighting -- this vile thing I did is your fault for provoking me, for not accepting my abuse, for standing up to me.
-
Frankly, that's just classic bully/abuser gaslighting -- this vile thing I did is your fault for provoking me, for not accepting my abuse, for standing up to me.
Yes, but it was her excuse for setting up Harry.
"Just smart enough to be stupid" is right; I too doubt she'd have thought it through. But her handlers -- the ones using her as a pawn -- also realize this. Why in the world would they give someone that "smart" such critical information, as the Nemesis-curse on the Athame??!?
Because she doesn't think... In other words Bianca was smart enough to know Nemesis is, but because she doesn't think, she is perfect to be used as a pawn.
definition of a pawn in chess;
What is the power of pawns in chess?
The power of pawns: The authors argue that pawns, often seen as weak pieces in chess, can actually be powerful assets in the right hands. They note that pawns can control key squares, create threats, and limit the movement of the opponent's pieces.
Which defines Bianca as a Nemesis pawn pretty well don't you think? Basically the above is exactly what her party, i.e. those she invited to the party did, to set future events up.
-
... Because she doesn't think...
Exactly.
Why would an intelligent, secretive, advance-planning agent (like Cowl or Mavra) share critical info like that with someone like Bianca -- an over-ambitious climber, who has climbed higher than her competence, somone who doesn't think?
She can do her part just fine without the info.
Looping her in only weakens their operation, in case someone infers something if she does some villain-monologue BS, or even just a gloating tease.
-
Looping her in only weakens their operation, in case someone infers something if she does some villain-monologue BS, or even just a gloating tease.
Report to moderator Logged
Actually it doesn't, because she is so stupid, she believes her own villian-monologue, this makes her the perfect pawn.
-
Actually it doesn't, because she is so stupid, she believes her own villian-monologue, this makes her the perfect pawn.
Pawn yes.
Informed, no.
Who tells their SooperSekritPlanz(tm) to their pawns? That kind of silliness is for the low-level villains.
Bianca did believe her own villain-monologue. It would have been incredibly dangerous for her to know that she was handing a trapped item to the Leanansidhe; I cannot imagine Cowl (or Mavra or whoever) trusting Bianca with that info. It wouldn't have served their interests in any way, for Bianca to know this.
-
Pawn yes.
Informed, no.
Who tells their SooperSekritPlanz(tm) to their pawns? That kind of silliness is for the low-level villains.
Bianca did believe her own villain-monologue. It would have been incredibly dangerous for her to know that she was handing a trapped item to the Leanansidhe; I cannot imagine Cowl (or Mavra or whoever) trusting Bianca with that info. It wouldn't have served their interests in any way, for Bianca to know this.
Yes, it would if they also convinced her that her power would be greater if the Winter Court was overthrown.
-
Yes, it would if they also convinced her that her power would be greater if the Winter Court was overthrown.
"Give Morgana's Athame to the Leanansidhe" is sufficiently-destabilizing. Lea herself likely didn't know of the Nemfection on the blade, but clearly she Got Ideas as soon as she saw the blade.
There was only risk in telling a climber like Bianca, and no upside for them.
-
"Give Morgana's Athame to the Leanansidhe" is sufficiently-destabilizing. Lea herself likely didn't know of the Nemfection on the blade, but clearly she Got Ideas as soon as she saw the blade.
There was only risk in telling a climber like Bianca, and no upside for them.
I think that depends on what was promised to her. Just a tin foil hat thought, but what if Bianca
was infected? I don't remember it saying that vampires are excluded from infection.. Not saying that it does and I missed it.. ::) Anyway, we've got a sort of logical reason for Bianca wanted to take out Harry, she blames him for her losing control and feeding until death her beloved secretary. Well maybe... But what if it was Nemesis that urged her to do it? Then fed the revenge idea in her head?
Nemesis has got to know that the star born Harry will someday be a threat to them.. On it all backfired beginning with Harry able to turn the tables on Bianca, thus killing her.. Mab was able to figure out that the knife was infected to save the Winter Court, though she lost one of her beloved daughters..
-
I think that depends on what was promised to her. Just a tin foil hat thought, but what if Bianca
was infected? I don't remember it saying that vampires are excluded from infection.. Not saying that it does and I missed it.. ::) ...
I don't see that it matters to a Nemesis-agent what was promised to Bianca: she's too unreliable, not trustworthy. I suspect she was -- in part -- directed to engage Harry and neutralize him (turned, Ramp-addicted & enslaved, or dead) as part of a test, to see if she did have the power & finesse to handle a powerful (if young) White Council wizard. Remember Ortega's role as an "observer" -- both to witness violations under the Accords, but also I suspect to study Bianca's suitability.
OTOH -- borrowing your tinfoil to don a hat of my own -- if Bianca was Nemfected, then she becomes "trustworthy" and could surely have been a trusted avenue to further Nemfection!
I don't see that we have any real "information" either confirming or denying that Ramps are/aren't subject to Nemfection, however (nor whether Bianca herself was/wasn't). One could read the text and find passages to ascribe such meanings to... but that opens the door to almost anything.
FWIW, I'll re-mention my own WAG -- every bit as tinfoiled as yours (if not moreso)! -- that the Lords of Outer Night are somehow related to the beings at the Outer Gates.
-
I don't see that it matters to a Nemesis-agent what was promised to Bianca: she's too unreliable, not trustworthy.
Not promised, infected.. There is a difference.
-
Not promised, infected.. There is a difference.
Indeed! And I addressed that, later... largely agreeing with you. Yeah, I think Nemfection would assure loyalty to Nemesis' cause!
But I was responding to your own up-front phrasing: "I think that depends on what was promised to her." Nemesis would suffice; "promises" would not.
Ortega, I think, was pure-Ramp, ignorant of Nemesis' presence. He was checking Bianca to make sure she was worthy of the honors she had received, and evaluating her for future & higher elevation.
Mavra & Cowl are the likely ones to be Nemesis agents, at that party.
-
Not promised, infected.. There is a difference. [/quote
Indeed! And I addressed that, later... largely agreeing with you. Yeah, I think Nemfection would assure loyalty to Nemesis' cause!
But I was responding to your own up-front phrasing: "I think that depends on what was promised to her." Nemesis would suffice; "promises" would not.
Ortega, I think, was pure-Ramp, ignorant of Nemesis' presence. He was checking Bianca to make sure she was worthy of the honors she had received, and evaluating her for future & higher elevation.
Mavra & Cowl are the likely ones to be Nemesis agents, at that party.
??? :-\ You need to fix your quote box.. Bianca may not even be aware that she is infected and being used.
-
??? :-\ You need to fix your quote box..
Yeah, I had a WTF moment reading it myself! :o Sorry 'bout that. :-\
Bianca may not even be aware that she is infected and being used.
That's an interesting thought. I think we see that in late-stage Nemfection, the victim is usually aware of the possession; but maybe not always: it isn't at all clear to me that Maeve understood this. But it's entirely possible -- much as early-Shadow Harry had worse anger issues, but no communication/awareness of the "Shadow" entity -- that early-Nemfection victims are similarly unaware, while still being subject to the Nemfection urges/prompting.
-
That's an interesting thought. I think we see that in late-stage Nemfection, the victim is usually aware of the possession; but maybe not always: it isn't at all clear to me that Maeve understood this. But it's entirely possible -- much as early-Shadow Harry had worse anger issues, but no communication/awareness of the "Shadow" entity -- that early-Nemfection victims are similarly unaware, while still being subject to the Nemfection urges/prompting.
And that may vary on the susceptibility of it's intended victim. Lea for example became aware of it soon enough to do something about it. She confessed to Mab and took the cure, and was cured, as far as we know at any rate. I say the latter because Jim may change his mind at any moment. Maeve was more susceptible perhaps because of her "mommy" issues, in the beginning neither she nor Mab were aware, and by the time she was, it was too late. If Mab was infected, [she did have the Knife on her belt for a time,] she either became aware very early on, or took precautions when she realized Lea was infected and entered treatment when Lea did. That's why I think anyway we see her in ice along side of Lea in Proven Guilty. I don't think she was just hiding, if she wasn't infected she was doing preventive care on herself. So infection by Nemesis can act sort of like COVID, ten people can catch it but the effects can range from asymptomatic to death with ten degrees of symptoms in between.. Or addiction, in it's early stages an addict isn't really aware that he or she is becoming addicted until they are..
-
... She confessed to Mab and took the cure, and was cured, as far as we know at any rate ...
I don't think Lea is entirely cured, no.
I think she's more like an addict, counting up her days/weeks/months/years clean and sober; but highly-vulnerable to relapse.
-
I don't think Lea is entirely cured, no.
I think she's more like an addict, counting up her days/weeks/months/years clean and sober; but highly-vulnerable to relapse.
Yeah, that is why I left it as an open question depending on the whim of Jim.. One wonders as well if Mab is also fully cured? I can foresee a real "oh crap" moment in the BAT when Mab reveals that she has been infected all along and was waiting for the right moment to pounce. As I said, Mab did wear the Knife on her belt for a time.
-
Tbh I feel like if Nemesis could have gotten to Mab the fight would be over by now, she's probably one of the beings on the "too big for Nenesis to infect" list.
-
Tbh I feel like if Nemesis could have gotten to Mab the fight would be over by now, she's probably one of the beings on the "too big for Nenesis to infect" list.
I don't think the fight would be over if Nemesis got Mab now..
-
I don't think the fight would be over if Nemesis got Mab now..
Except it totally would, because Nemesis!Mab wouldn't be doing things like sending Harry to stop Nemesis from blowing up North America and unleashing an army of Demons and Fallen Gods and what-not.
-
Except it totally would, because Nemesis!Mab wouldn't be doing things like sending Harry to stop Nemesis from blowing up North America and unleashing an army of Demons and Fallen Gods and what-not.
But even an infected Mab can be killed, even if it is only one day a year.. Or an infected Mab can be lured to the island and jailed.. It would be bad, yes, but the opposition isn't without tools to fight her.
-
But even an infected Mab can be killed, even if it is only one day a year.. Or an infected Mab can be lured to the island and jailed.. It would be bad, yes, but the opposition isn't without tools to fight her.
Agreed. And Harry could call out Ethnieu, who is shown to be more powerful, and have Ethnieu bring her back to a cell. Possibly Vadderrung too.
-
I highly doubt that anything short of the Mothers could stop a Nemfected Mab.
-
I highly doubt that anything short of the Mothers could stop a Nemfected Mab.
I suspect Mother Winter could just take back the Queen-Mantle.
-
I highly doubt that anything short of the Mothers could stop a Nemfected Mab.
Have we seen a massive power boost to the Nemfected? Nemfected Lea couldn't overthrow Mab. And regular Lea was second in power there beforehand. I'd think Ethnieu is capable, and we do not know that Ethnieu is the most powerful prisoner, either. We were led to believe a Nic could strike thru Titanic Bronze, given the opportunity. Makes me think that if a Nemfected Mab lets her guard down, a Swordbearer could take her down, or someone with the Spear of Destiny. If they can get close enough, which Mab cannot allow.
But Mother Winter could likely just pull the Mantle, as G33K says, and then Mab is on Justine's level.... crazy human
-
But Mother Winter could likely just pull the Mantle, as G33K says, and then Mab is on Justine's level.... crazy human
Which is even more scary than Mab, infected crazy humans...
-
Which is even more scary than Mab, infected crazy humans...
I think loss of the Mantle, after all these centuries, would leave a purely-mortal Mab too insane to operate in any functional way. She wouldn't be crazy-like-a-fox, violently insane, Joker-crazy (in unpredictable lateral-thinking ways), etc.
She'd just probably start screaming or weeping, and never stop until she died; or maybe just go catatonic.
And start aging like Cassius did, dead of old age after a couple of years(ish).
-
I think loss of the Mantle, after all these centuries, would leave a purely-mortal Mab too insane to operate in any functional way. She wouldn't be crazy-like-a-fox, violently insane, Joker-crazy (in unpredictable lateral-thinking ways), etc.
She'd just probably start screaming or weeping, and never stop until she died; or maybe just go catatonic.
And start aging like Cassius did, dead of old age after a couple of years(ish).
Maybe turn to dust, since she is a lot older than Cassius... However I doubt that Mab would scream or weep, it isn't in her nature.
-
... However I doubt that Mab would scream or weep, it isn't in her nature.
I think Mab would have very little of her "nature" left, if her Mantle were just ripped away like that.
-
I think Mab would have very little of her "nature" left, if her Mantle were just ripped away like that.
I think it is tricky, while I agree with you about her human nature, but what of her Fae nature? Even without the Queen's Mantle, she'd be mostly Fae now wouldn't she?
-
I think it is tricky, while I agree with you about her human nature, but what of her Fae nature? Even without the Queen's Mantle, she'd be mostly Fae now wouldn't she?
I don't know; but I presume most of her "faery-ness" would be built upon the foundation of the Mantle. Yank away the mantle, and much of the "faerie" likely goes with it (and the remainder -- if any -- in shambles).
This is all fannish theorycrafting, of course. AFAIK we've seen nothing in canon, nor had WoJ, to give us the particulars of such things.
-
I don't know; but I presume most of her "faery-ness" would be built upon the foundation of the Mantle. Yank away the mantle, and much of the "faerie" likely goes with it (and the remainder -- if any -- in shambles).
This is all fannish theorycrafting, of course. AFAIK we've seen nothing in canon, nor had WoJ, to give us the particulars of such things.
True, but it may come down to personality traits.. Yes, the Fae Mantels are very strong and controlling, but it is possible to prevent the tail from wagging the dog.. So if Mab was a strong woman to begin with, she'd remain one, mantel or no mantel.
-
While speculation about what Mab would become without her mantle is interesting, I want to get back to the OP. However, for the record I will state that Mab only has a trace of her original humanity left in her, so it's difficult for me to see how she would survive let alone function without her mantle, beyond taking on another mantle, like Mother Winter's or that of another immortal.
Now to address the OP. Near the beginning of Battle Ground, Mab tells Harry that the first time she saw him, Mab could tell that Harry had potential for true greatness. By that, I think that Mab saw Harry's potential to become an immortal. When we look back to Summer Knight, we find that Mab told Harry that she had seen him frustrate the Leanansidhe the previous autumn. Mab did not say that was the first time she saw Harry, but it's good candidate for first time that she saw him. At that time, Mab saw Harry outwit a particularly clever and powerful immortal. Mab may have thought something like, "Imagine what this one could do if he lives long enough to gain knowledge, wisdom and gets the power to really use it." Of course, that doesn't get us any closer to why Mab wants to change Harry; except it tells us that Mab was looking for someone who is clever enough to match wits with other immortals; perhaps she wants someone who is something of a trickster or in modern human terms, someone who can think outside the box.
Two questions come to my mind at this point. First, who does Mab want Harry to outwit and how does Harry become an immortal and take or create a mantle for himself. The second question is easier to answer, so I'll start with that one.
We saw that Lilly had the mantle of the Summer Knight placed in her by Aurora. Then, when Aurora died her mantle jumped over to the nearest reflection of Summer, which was Lily. So by extension, Harry is already prepared to take up and put on the mantle of a member of Winter Court. I'm assuming the mantles of the Winter Queens are off limits to Harry. So, without other possible candidates the most likely mantle Harry could inherit would be Kringle's. Add to that, Kringle told Harry that "Many, many mantles are worn - or discarded - on Halloween night, wizard." Potentially, that makes it much easier for Harry to become an immortal. All he needs is for Kringle; or another member of Winter that has a mantle that would be available to Harry, to willingly discard it and for Harry to be the closest reflection of Winter. Yes, Harry could kill another immortal, but we know how difficult that can be, and Harry would have to do it on his own to make certain the mantle passed to him or no one else could pick it up; and why would Harry want do this in this first place? It's much easier for Mab to force the choice on Harry to pickup a discarded mantle than to force him to choose to kill an immortal and take their mantle.
Of course, there could be rules around how mantles are passed from one party to another that we haven't been told yet. Perhaps Kringle; and therefore Odin, has to die for his mantle to automatically fly to the closest reflection of Winter. If Odin were to discard Kringle's mantle, perhaps it would take an effort of will to pick it up so Harry would have to make the choice to do so. We just don't know. I assume that for any discarded mantle that comes from outside of Winter, Harry would have to choose to pick it up. Of course Mab and Odin are masters at creating conditions that would pretty much force Harry; or any other mortal, to make such a choice.
My guess is creating a new mantle is something that usually takes ages. For example, I doubt the Red Cap has a mantle. Perhaps if he and his legend survives and grows over the coming centuries, then maybe a mantle will grow around him. If this is the case, there's little point thinking that Harry might create a new mantle. I suspect that Harry would have to develop almost god-like worship from a huge number of mortals to start building a mantle for himself, and why would he even want to do that. I don't thing Harry proclaiming himself as "The Wizard of Chicago" is going to do it. Harry could also try to pull-off a darkhallow spell, but that's not something Harry would want to do or could be convinced to do.
So, my best guess is Harry will get the opportunity; whether he likes it or not, to pick up a discarded mantle, and it will probably be from Winter, because this way Mab can keep Harry "in the fold" and at least partially under her control. A sidetrack issue is created no matter where the mantle comes from. Can Harry remain the Winter Knight; the mortal champion of Winter, if he picks up a mantle from an immortal? I think he can and it should be pretty obvious why. Harry could make the choice to live in the mortal world; which makes him nominally mortal in that he could be killed, just as Vadderung can be killed in the mortal world. If Mab sends Harry on a mission he couldn't use his immortal abilities, because Harry would no longer be the mortal champion of Winter. I don't think Mab would like this, because every time she sent Harry out on a mission she would be risking both Harry and the immortal mantel he carries. Then again, there might be rules we don't know about that lesson this risk; I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Finally back to the "why" question, which involves who Harry would take on. The obvious candidate for immortal Harry to have to outwit is Nemesis itself. Harry might take on the Walkers individually as a mortal, but for the big boss Outsider I suspect Harry needs to level up in a big way. After Nemesis there is the Prince of Darkness, though I don't know if we will be seeing him "in the flesh" so maybe not such a good candidate for sometimes-immortal Harry to face. Plus, if the mortal Daniel Webster could out argue Satan, I doubt Harry needs to beat Satan to a pulp or anything like it. Then there's Drakul. We don't know how powerful he really is. While Drakul is on earth he might be vulnerable, when he's in the Nevernever perhaps it would take god like powers to tackle him. Facing those possible opponents are my best guesses why Mab wants Harry to level up in a big way.
I think the only other reason that might be motivating Mab, is she senses that her time may be coming to an end. I'm reminded of a phrase from the movie The Usual Suspects, "It was his Will!" Mab wants her "Will" to continue beyond her time, and to that end Harry may be the best instrument available to make that happen, but only if he becomes an immortal. Even if Mab knows that she won't be there to see it, in Mab's mind she and Harry would be accomplishing "great things" together.
-
... Near the beginning of Battle Ground, Mab tells Harry that the first time she saw him, Mab could tell that Harry had potential for true greatness. By that, I think that Mab saw Harry's potential to become an immortal.
I don't think that Mab thinks mere "Immortality" is all that.
Greatness is what you (can) do, and DO do; what you achieve. Obstacles overcome, challenges surpassed (inner ones and external). Resisting Lasciel's Shadow was an act of greatness.
... The obvious candidate for immortal Harry to have to outwit is Nemesis itself. Harry might take on the Walkers
individually as a mortal, but for the big boss Outsider ...
DF-Wiki pegs Nemesis as one of the Walkers -- HWWBeside
-
True, but it may come down to personality traits.. Yes, the Fae Mantels are very strong and controlling, but it is possible to prevent the tail from wagging the dog.. So if Mab was a strong woman to begin with, she'd remain one, mantel or no mantel.
perhaps at one time you could remove the mantle, like they did with the bloodline curse eliminating the Ramp part of the half-changed, but i think Mab has had it as a part of her too long. It would be like pulling all the cybernetics from Darth Vader. He won't last long. They are too much an essential part of him now. Molly is becoming less human. I hope they remove her mantle before she is too dependent on it.
-
Of course, that doesn't get us any closer to why Mab wants to change Harry; except it tells us that Mab was looking for someone who is clever enough to match wits with other immortals;
I don't think she is trying to change him. I think she is trying to employ him, not as a servant, but as an agent, given considerably more latitude than a servant. Lara has called him a weapon, Mab is simply trying to aim it a little.
I'm assuming the mantles of the Winter Queens are off limits to Harry.
One word - RuHarry.....
Thomas has skills to help...
Plus, if the mortal Daniel Webster could out argue Satan, I doubt Harry needs to beat Satan to a pulp or anything like it.
Plus, Obama kicked her butt in the primaries in 2008
Leave Harry mortal. No Jack Frost or Old Man Winter.
-
I highly doubt that anything short of the Mothers could stop a Nemfected Mab.
Murphy stopped Maeve with a handgun.
Mab's already told us when she is going to die. She's bound by fae rules. She cannot tell a lie.
"I am Mab. The stars will rain from the sky before Mab fulfills not her word."
The last book in the BAT is called Empty Night.
-
Murphy stopped Maeve with a handgun.
Mab's already told us when she is going to die. She's bound by fae rules. She cannot tell a lie.
The last book in the BAT is called Empty Night.
Not a lie if she really believes it. Plus, she can get tossed in Demonreach or the like, she's not DEAD, but she's not getting out unless she is LET out