ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: SerScot on December 30, 2022, 08:07:43 PM
-
We saw how difficult it was to get Ethniu into the Well. We saw how difficult it was for Harry to fight Shagnasty… how did the inmates on Demonreach get there? Who put them there? When did they get there?
-
I would create a Little Demonreach, which could slot in the back of the Munstermobile and use that to summon Alfred to take custody of the miscreant anywhere.
-
We saw how difficult it was to get Ethniu into the Well. We saw how difficult it was for Harry to fight Shagnasty… how did the inmates on Demonreach get there? Who put them there? When did they get there?
I suspect we'll never know unless Jim decides to do "History of the Wardens and White Council" series. Demonreach is an interesting story element but one that raises more questions than answers.
-
I suspect we will get a POV story from the British Prisoner one day.
-
i think Harry is likely less experienced and less skilled than most who have had the job before. Some of the heavies in there were likely taken down by a group of Wardens or the blackstaff. They send a posse.
I doubt a traveling version would be easy to build. Gotta run a lot of mojo thru it to summon Alfred... might slag stuff.
-
... We saw how difficult it was for Harry to fight Shagnasty…
Harry hadn't really powered up, at that time.
If he had been The Warden, ol' Shaggy would be snoozing down in a pretty crystal.
-
… how did the inmates on Demonreach get there? Who put them there? When did they get there?
I am betting that OG Merlin himself was responsible for a fair number of the inmates.
Then a few more per Warden, over the centuries... Occasional flurries, where LOTS of inmates get added; occasional lulls, where none do.
-
... Some of the heavies in there were likely taken down by a group of Wardens or the blackstaff ...
I have a WAG that "the wardens of the White Council" is a misnomer.
"The wardens" are supposed to be adjuncts to the Warden (of Demonreach).
-
The White God appears to have used their power to give an ultimatum to the lesser powers, stay out of the mortal world if your power can break reality. Some powered down like Odin to stay, some retreated to the NeverNever like Hades and the Mothers, and those that did not found themselves fair game for Demonreach. Some like Mr Ferro skirted this by only extruding part of themselves into the mortal world.
The current set up of Winter and Summer is that Winter are the CIA and Summer the FBI I presume that Summers earlier task aside from watching Winter was to deal with the likes of Ethnui, it is therefore no surprise really Summer turned up to Battle Ethnui despite the falling out of the sisters in 1066, this may have been the first major threat to reality from inside since that date. This leaves a period of 400 AD (when the Merlin became active) to 1000 AD (ignoring the time travelling) that probably saw an intake of new prisoners mostly likely from the New World (those Inca and Mayan gods whose servants then styled themselves Lords of the Outer Night) the Naagloshii etc. this may explain why The Merlin established Demonreach in North America, keep it out of the Old World whilst cleaning it up.
The Old World clean up probably took place earlier before the Winter/Summer split when the Greco Roman Gods were defenders of the Gates and the Faerie Mantles created .They would have used Demonreach established by the timetravelling Merlin as providing a solution they didn’t realise they needed. I guess some entities were given the option of incarceration or on Halloween be forced to siphon their power off to others/mantles.
There may have been an earlier wave of incarcerations, but no record exists outside of Demonreach due to the Oblivion War.
-
The last time this question was posed, I suggested and still wonder if Demonreach can move his essence along the ley line. So you could be halfway across the world and still sent a baddy to Demonreach. We saw in BG that you don't need to be on the island itself to be snared, so there must be at least some way the Demonreach is able to extend himself beyond the island.
-
Since then we have had Battle Ground, and Demonreach can extend as far as the lakeshore. Remember it’s a genius loci a spirit of the place so it is likely to be geographically anchored. Besides Alfred’s limp comes from the Glacier which carved out Lake Michigan according to Jim/Harry, but according to science it was created 1.2 Billion years ago by the fissure of two tectonic plates (we are looking at you Mr Ferro, and explains his limited engagement in BG, he would literally rip Lake Michigan a new one and possibly open up Demonreach, by moving the ley line, the plot of the Dragon Book perhaps? Demonreach is the ultimate Dungeon and Ferrovax the ultimate Dragon, so is that book going to be the ultimate Dungeons and Dragons adventure? Ferro was introduced in GP and repeated attacks on Demonreach are a thing Turn Coat(replacement warden theory for the murder), Cold Days (outright attack) even Battle Ground (infiltration) so after Next Book and Mirror Mirror we are about due for another attack on Demonreach plot, someone luring or forcing Ferro fully out of the NeverNever into Chicago to disrupt the tectonic plates and the ley lines) it was filled with water by retreating glaciers about 15,000 years ago which may have led to the creation of the island as we know it today and before human habitation of North America and probably led to the creation of the Genius Loci we know as Alfred.
-
I dunno about that - if you force Ferro out, that breaks a TWG Rule, and that might not be Harry addressing, but angels. And not necessarily Uriel, because this won't have to be subtle
-
@Conspiracy Theorist,
but according to science it was created 1.2 Billion years ago by the fissure of two tectonic plates
You are incorrect. Lake Superior was created by tectonic rifting, that’s why it is the only really deep great lake. Michigan/Huron are Glacial remnants.
https://www.lakesuperior.com/the-lake/natural-world/243-lake-superior-basin-fiery-beginning/
-
Besides Alfred’s limp comes from the Glacier which carved out Lake Michigan according to Jim/Harry, but according to science it was created 1.2 Billion years ago by the fissure of two tectonic plates
Where was this said? What WOJ or book talked about glaciers creating the limp? I don't know every WOJ but this is the first I'm hearing of this one and would enjoy hearing more about it.
-
I believe Jim said he had a grudge and implied the limp was from that, but Jim doesn’t always tell the truth even on small matters if it is going to impact upon a major plot.
Hmmm I suspect each of the Great Lakes supporters tell a similar story:-
https://www.livescience.com/32011-lake-michigan.html
Wikipedia is surprising silent on this, suggesting the fact is hotly contested amongst rock nerds of the universities bordering the Great Lakes , and they got fed up with the pages constantly being changed.
Jim has characters who were there though, so he can say what he wants and pick the theory he wants until someone invents timetravel and disproves him.
If Ferro is being lured out into the mortal world then in Skin Game the Ferro vault in Marcone’s bank might be an Easter Egg for this, if Hades vault in the Bank leads to Hades Vault in the Never Never, then it stands to reason the same applies to Ferro’s Vault leading to his Hoard in the Never Never. What if the gift to Ferro in Grave Peril presented by Cowl is the lure and the access through the vault the way to bring Ferro fully out?
I have posited Cowl is Nameless, and Nameless is Marcone’s top lawyer, and was part of Winter Until Mab shut him out after the attack on Arctis Tor. He might have been planning this all along from GP. We saw the problems the gift to Lea created for Winter, and Cowl’s boast in Dead Beat when Harry connects him to GP. Mab merely saw the opportunity to put Nicky in his place and to retrieve the artifacts, and inadvertently came to the same plan as cowl/nameless but for a different subject. That would connect it into the wider narrative that Cowl/The Black Council have been involved in all of Harry’s major cases to some degree, SG bothered me because there didn’t appear to be a link, The Law and forthcoming Dragon book mat provide that link. Would Marcone’s top lawyer have access to his bank? and through them the vaults? I think so. If Cowl is Nameless it suggests that Nameless has a reason to continue to work for Marcone, why bother otherwise?
The Law exists to create a nexus between Winter and Marcone and Nameless and Kemmler (who Cowl and Nameless both worked with, not for) it is likely that is far more significant than is realised and why a ‘surprise’ Novella was required. It contains points relevant to the wider plot.
We only see Ferro in GP and PT/BG we get the mention in SG, are there any other references? Could Demonreach contain a fully emerged Ferro?
-
I didn’t link to Wikipedia. Superior is much deeper than the other Great Lakes because it’s formation is different from the other Great Lakes. Heck the far western shoreline of Lake Superior is lava fields because of the rifting that formed it. That isn’t true for Michigan/Superior because they are glacial remnants.
-
I didn’t say you did, you linked to a local magazine website for Lake Superior which puffs Lake Superior. Link to peer reviewed academic papers covering both lakes if you want to prove your point. Normally Wikipedia settles things, but in this case it doesn’t as it is silent, so it is still appears to be a matter of academic debate.
in Dresdenverse the ley lines have been important to the plot for Dead Beat, Changes and Cold Days so their disruption or re-alignment are key to destroying Demonreach. The ley lines locally erupt from Demonreach and appear to have been created by the Merlin. They link into the local network and presumably provide an anchor/ grounding for it. Cutting that anchor would leave Demonreach vulnerable. Only a Dragon could do that - it was intimated in Peace Talks/Battle Ground. I bet the Dragons originally created the Ley line network either by accident or deliberation.
This makes me wonder about Sirriothrax and the two different versions we get of his death. The swords are powerful enough to kill a Dragon, but what was that Dragon doing to warrant the intervention of the White God? Extruding itself too much into the mortal realm? Was Cowl active even then more than a dozen years before Storm Front? Dragons are immortal so Michael couldn’t have killed it properly except on Halloween, all he could have done is disperse it, and it would have eventually have coalesced back into a physical form. Perhaps initially an egg? Could that be what Cowl gifted to Ferro, the coalescing egg of Sirriothrax? Could Tunguska have been a previous dispersal of Sirriothrax reconciling the two apparent deaths? Morgan nuked a Naagloshii and it came back. Could the Tunguska incident actually be Grey Council not White Council?
Now that egg may be in Ferro’s vault, sitting on a ley line and growing, getting ready to hatch.
-
I didn’t say you did, you linked to a local magazine website for Lake Superior which puffs Lake Superior. Link to peer reviewed academic papers covering both lakes if you want to prove your point. Normally Wikipedia settles things, but in this case it doesn’t as it is silent, so it is still appears to be a matter of academic debate.
in Dresdenverse the ley lines have been important to the plot for Dead Beat, Changes and Cold Days so their disruption or re-alignment are key to destroying Demonreach. The ley lines locally erupt from Demonreach and appear to have been created by the Merlin. They link into the local network and presumably provide an anchor/ grounding for it. Cutting that anchor would leave Demonreach vulnerable. Only a Dragon could do that - it was intimated in Peace Talks/Battle Ground. I bet the Dragons originally created the Ley line network either by accident or deliberation.
This makes me wonder about Sirriothrax and the two different versions we get of his death. The swords are powerful enough to kill a Dragon, but what was that Dragon doing to warrant the intervention of the White God? Extruding itself too much into the mortal realm? Was Cowl active even then more than a dozen years before Storm Front? Dragons are immortal so Michael couldn’t have killed it properly except on Halloween, all he could have done is disperse it, and it would have eventually have coalesced back into a physical form. Perhaps initially an egg? Could that be what Cowl gifted to Ferro, the coalescing egg of Sirriothrax? Could Tunguska have been a previous dispersal of Sirriothrax reconciling the two apparent deaths? Morgan nuked a Naagloshii and it came back. Could the Tunguska incident actually be Grey Council not White Council?
Now that egg may be in Ferro’s vault, sitting on a ley line and growing, getting ready to hatch.
Here’s a link to a more “scholarly” article on the geology of the entire Great Lakes Region:
https://museum.mtu.edu/sites/default/files/2019-11/AESMM_Web_Pub_1_Great_Lakes_Geology_0.pdf
From the article:
The glaciers carved out the basins that are now occupied by the Great Lakes (11). The less competent rocks tend to be more easily scoured and result in valleys. This is especially true for Lake Superior which mimics the shape of the Midcontinent rift (Figure 2). The center of the rift was filled with less competent sedimentary rocks, such as siltstone and fine-grained sandstone, whereas on the margin are the more competent dipping lava flow or to the north older Archean basement. Thus, by preferentially scouring out the less competent rocks, the glaciers left behind a horseshoe shaped Lake Superior.
-
“Especially true for Lake Superior”
-
“Especially true for Lake Superior”
Because Lake Superior is where the rifting was taking place… not Southern Lake Michigan.
-
Because Lake Superior is where the rifting was taking place… not Southern Lake Michigan.
Actually according to Fig 2 the Mezoprotozoic rifting took place on three sides of Lake Michigan and the Grenville Techtonic front runs parallel to Lake Michigan which is between it and Superior, it’s bedrock is also geologically more recent than Superior. There have been multiple geological events in the Great Lakes Basin
Which resulted in the current formation, so seeking to ascribe a particular feature to just a single event would appear to be pointless. The whole region has be geologically active for a considerable period.
-
Actually according to Fig 2 the Mezoprotozoic rifting took place on three sides of Lake Michigan and the Grenville Techtonic front runs parallel to Lake Michigan which is between it and Superior, it’s bedrock is also geologically more recent than Superior. There have been multiple geological events in the Great Lakes Basin
Which resulted in the current formation, so seeking to ascribe a particular feature to just a single event would appear to be pointless. The whole region has be geologically active for a considerable period.
The point I’m trying to make is that the rifting was well north of where Butcher has Demonreach placed. Lake Michigan around Demonreach (where Demonreach purports to be) is not the formerly geologically active part of the region. That the UP of Michigan, Northern Wisconsin, and North Eastern Minnesota. Geologically all Demonreach could be is a lens of very hard rock that survived the most recent glaciation and was tall enough to be partially above water in the current Geological epoch.
-
Why do we presume Merlin or the Dragons created the ley line network around Demonreach? Maybe the network was not created by Merlin when he built the jail, maybe Merlin built the jail here BECAUSE the ley lines were here. Like founding New York because there was a good harbor there. They didn't build the harbor. They wanted to settle, and decided "This harbor looks good. We'll go here". Merlin sees Lake Michigan as a moat, defuses a lot of the magic of someone approaching. Has ley lines as a power source.
Looks like a good building site!
I'm not sure Michael could not kill Siriothrax - heck, in later cases, he seems to think that maybe it could kill Nic. He's more aggressive with Nic, less defensive. Nic can be killed by the Noose. Divinely endowed? Siriothrax may be immortal to HUMAN weapons, but the Swords are divine.
Do we know that Naag came back from the A bomb? I was assuming they are not immortal, just semi-immortal, and it might be a fission bomb is enough.
-
The Swords can’t kill the Fallen only the hosts. The noose protects Nick, not Anduriel. The Fallen can heal their host and can stem the ravages of time.
If immortals were so easy to kill Demonreach wouldn’t exist. We know:-
1. All immortals can be killed on Halloween (immortals do not like this to be known)
2. The Faerie Queens can be killed on the Stone Table
3. Repeated blasts from the Eye of Baelor can kill an immortal, probably by breaking reality in relation to them and their immortality.
Indeed there is no reason for Michael not to think that he killed Sirriothrax rather than disincorporate him, Harry only finds out about killing immortals in Summer Knight because Bob found out this information and had to flee Winter. Ferro isn’t going to set him straight and it may explain why he was so forgiving of Michael in GP he knew Sirriothrax had only been disincorporated and not killed or imprisoned in Demonreach, and would be back. Michael is less clued into the supernatural than Harry, so he wouldn’t know.
Not all the Fae or monsters The Knights deal with are immortal, they are ageless or long lived, durable but not immortal. The Swords can kill them no problem. For an immortal like Ethnui they can injure or discorporate her if they can get in sufficient blows to their physical form, like nuking a Naagloshii the swords are that powerful. Not so sure about the Faithsaber though it may require less blows than then other swords to discorporate an immortal, it can do far more damage spiritually and may make the period to reincorporate much longer but they would eventually return.
The Faithsaber versus the Fallen would be interesting, is the Faithsaber enough into the spiritual now to disincorporate a Fallen if it were to bisect a coin? Cutting them loose from their coin? The coins were impervious to physical damage presumably even the swords in their material form couldn’t harm them so they couldn’t be disincorporated.
-
We saw how difficult it was to get Ethniu into the Well. We saw how difficult it was for Harry to fight Shagnasty… how did the inmates on Demonreach get there? Who put them there? When did they get there?
Before you go down this road consider what purpose it serves in the narrative. It obviously is meant to serve as a power source. Rashid had hinted at that. Otherwise there is no reason for the place to exist. It's too dangerous.
Also consider that Demonreach lied to Bob when he reveled what and who built it. You should know by now that Demonreach is concealing something.
Odin had something to do with it. Interesting maybe. Does Rashid wear Odin's eye? Interesting question 2. Who were LTW and the River Shoulders so frightened of that they wouldn't tell Harry about Drakul and Starborn?
-
Why do we presume Merlin or the Dragons created the ley line network around Demonreach? Maybe the network was not created by Merlin when he built the jail, maybe Merlin built the jail here BECAUSE the ley lines were here.
No, the Gatekeeper clearly states on page 385 of TC (soft cover)
"The ley line you speak of does not go through the island," he said. "This is where it wells up. The island is its source."
The Dragons or anyone else didn't create the ley line. The ley line is created by the combined magical energy of hundreds or thousands of powerful beings all in one place. The Dragons may have created other lines, but I think it is more likely every ley line comes from a place of great significance.
-
Dragons likely created the other ley lines into which the energies ofvDemobreach are grounded into the wider network.
-
The Swords can’t kill the Fallen only the hosts. The noose protects Nick, not Anduriel. The Fallen can heal their host and can stem the ravages of time.
Didn't say kill the Fallen, said kill Nic.
If immortals were so easy to kill Demonreach wouldn’t exist. We know:-
1. All immortals can be killed on Halloween (immortals do not like this to be known)
2. The Faerie Queens can be killed on the Stone Table
3. Repeated blasts from the Eye of Baelor can kill an immortal, probably by breaking reality in relation to them and their immortality.
Do we know ALL immortals can be killed on Halloween? We know the Fae court. Are Angels vulnerable? The Fallen? Hades?
If ALL immortals were killable on Halloween, I would expect traditional executions on Demonreach on Halloween. Harry could take a Naag out, have it stand facing the water, which itself is no threat, and shoot it in the back of the head.
Indeed there is no reason for Michael not to think that he killed Sirriothrax rather than disincorporate him, Harry only finds out about killing immortals in Summer Knight because Bob found out this information and had to flee Winter. Ferro isn’t going to set him straight and it may explain why he was so forgiving of Michael in GP he knew Sirriothrax had only been disincorporated and not killed or imprisoned in Demonreach, and would be back. Michael is less clued into the supernatural than Harry, so he wouldn’t know.
and what reason do we have to think that discorporation is real? Ferro might simply be following rules he agreed to to be allowed into reality. If Siriothrax was a business matter for the Knights, their high-ups may frown on taking revenge. Though if Michael oversteps, Ferro might be allowed such. Have we seen anything from this side of the Gates that just comes back and re-forms a body? And we never heard the body vanished. HWWB is an Outsider, rules may not apply there.
-
No, the Gatekeeper clearly states on page 385 of TC (soft cover) "The ley line you speak of does not go through the island," he said. "This is where it wells up. The island is its source."
The Island. Not the beings. We heard that Edinburgh is also a nexus. Chichen Itza. I think they look at the lines like settlers may have once seen a waterfall. Hey, there's a place I can build a mill! Water power will grind my grain! Steel towns popped up around coal. We know the stones of the buildings have power infused - Merlin likely tapped the Well. Maybe they STILL tap the Well for power. Maybe Merlin harnessed that power to create Alfred... maybe it powers Alfred, and that is why he needs to stay near/on the island.
The Lines draw the building of the Wizard HQ, or Demonreach. Or Itza. The prisoners don't generate them.
-
The Island. Not the beings. We heard that Edinburgh is also a nexus. Chichen Itza. I think they look at the lines like settlers may have once seen a waterfall. Hey, there's a place I can build a mill! Water power will grind my grain! Steel towns popped up around coal. We know the stones of the buildings have power infused - Merlin likely tapped the Well. Maybe they STILL tap the Well for power. Maybe Merlin harnessed that power to create Alfred... maybe it powers Alfred, and that is why he needs to stay near/on the island.
The Lines draw the building of the Wizard HQ, or Demonreach. Or Itza. The prisoners don't generate them.
We also hear from Bob in Cold Days that the waste heat of the prisoners is what powers the ley lines. No prisoners, no energy. The ley lines are also coming from the middle of a body of water which would normally disperse the magic. Merlin probably set them up to bleed off excess power or the pent-up power would have exploded by now.
-
My thoughts exactly, and they bleed off further into the extended ley- line network to which they connect.
If the Merlin was able to create the Demonreach ley -lines then other beings may have created the extended network, the best suspects are the Dragons