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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: heidi_storage on November 13, 2022, 07:30:12 PM
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...the son of Tera West and Harley MacFinn, right? Bad luck for him if so.
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Where did you get that information? I thought it was just a theory, nothing confirmed. Did I miss something?
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Not confirmed at all; I was just rereading Ghost Story and the WoJ about Fitz's name meaning "bastard." Wanted to know if there was a possibility of an ectomancer--like loup garou running around in future.
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Unless MacFinn's line died out, and it isn't supposed to until the end of time, there's a Loup Garou running around.
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Unless MacFinn's line died out, and it isn't supposed to until the end of time, there's a Loup Garou running around.
"until the end of time" ... or until someone more clever / more powerful comes along to break the curse! Entirely possible in the Dresdenverse.
Harry didn't even try to end the curse, it was all he could do to kill MacFinn; so he didn't do it.
Maybe someone else did it, offstage? Or someone WILL do it?
Not like an (orphaned, resentful) loup-garou isn't a dangling plot-hook coming to bite Harry in the ass, eh?
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"until the end of time" ... or until someone more clever / more powerful comes along to break the curse! Entirely possible in the Dresdenverse.
Harry didn't even try to end the curse, it was all he could do to kill MacFinn; so he didn't do it.
Maybe someone else did it, offstage? Or someone WILL do it?
Not like an (orphaned, resentful) loup-garou isn't a dangling plot-hook coming to bite Harry in the ass, eh?
Perhaps he didn't try because there is no way to lift the curse. I need to go back to reread the passage, but I believe Bob said as much. I also think that McFinn and all of his ancestors would have searched for and found it if there was a way. The only way to end it for the McFinns was to end the last McFinn, which Harry did. However that doesn't mean there aren't other families out there suffering from the same kind of curse, so I wouldn't be shocked if there are more Loops out there, they just aren't McFinns.
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Okay hear me out. We know the major players have been watching harry and in Chicago for sometime now. What if only a starborn can trigger the end of the world. Like the final conformation that harry is the Starborn rather than a starborn was doing the impossible. Macfinns bloodline can only end at the end of the world. It was an alarm clock for the major players. Like when the last of the bloodline died (thor voice) 'it was a signal that we are switches to (dr stange voice) in the endgame now.
Those who know what to look for immediately know that only the Starborn could have done it. I little research shows its harry. Those who had doubts are convinced.
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The assumption as to Fitz parentage is shaky at best, why would Fitz even be in Chicago? Why hadn’t the curse manifested by ghost Story, why would he be named Fitz in the modern age? You all also appear to be applying it incorrectly it is a patronymic applied to both legitimate and illegitimate heirs. The important part isn’t the Fitz part of his name, but the part we are not given Fitzwhat? Who is he the son of? The term is Anglo - Norman (back to Brittany again) and generally means the child has been claimed by the father
I think that Fitz is actually most likely a scion, maybe a Changeling. Remember Ronald Ruel had been dead several years by Ghost Story, so he would not have been around to look after him, especially if his father died around the same. Fitztalos perhaps? The claimed child of Marshall Talos of Summer who dies in Summer Knight. If so Harry had a hand in Fitz fathers death and led him to being cast out into the cruel world as an orphan. Since when has Jim turned down the opportunity to cause Harry pain?
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Perhaps he didn't try because there is no way to lift the curse. I need to go back to reread the passage, but I believe Bob said as much...
Harry didn't know anything about it; everything he knew about the curse, he learned "on-screen" in Fool Moon.
It was everything he could do, just to survive and keep others alive -- in fact, that was MORE than he could do, as several people died despite his attempts at protecting them.
I'd lay long odds on Mab knowing of a way to lift the curse.
I'm certain that one of Mother Winter's unravelings could undo it.
Angelic power -- if the Angel was free to act -- could lift it gently, or smash it with simple force.
... I also think that McFinn and all of his ancestors would have searched for and found it if there was a way...
But they are mere mortals; they have no magical talent, no great insights or allies to achieve their aims.
One key bit that I hadn't recalled... Apparently (per the DF wiki) Harry got some of his info from Chauncy??!? Which makes the info very suspect indeed!
... The only way to end it for the McFinns was to end the last McFinn, which Harry did. However that doesn't mean there aren't other families out there suffering from the same kind of curse, so I wouldn't be shocked if there are more Loops out there, they just aren't McFinns.
Unless -- as per the OP -- Fitz is a bastard child of the MacFinn line, so Harry didn't end the line...?
I'm unconvinced that Fitz' backstory is a MacFinn (tho I think it entirely possible, given Fitz' eyes & Tera's), but I think it highly-probable that Fitz is indeed the son of somebody from Harry's past... How 'bout (just throwing out ideas) the son of Justin DuMorne?
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The assumption as to Fitz parentage is shaky at best ...
All the WAGs are shaky, man! It's the nature of WAGgery.
Don't rain on the parade. ;)
... why would Fitz even be in Chicago?
It's often the nature of young wolves to go wandering for a period, when they first leave their mothers. And it's the nature of humans -- particularly those who never knew one/both parents -- to be curious about their origins & parentage.
... Why hadn’t the curse manifested by ghost Story ...
Dunno. Maybe it doesn't "hit" until a certain age, or a "blood moon" lunar eclipse, or somesuch. Hands can be waved, excuses can be found. ;D
... why would he be named Fitz in the modern age?
Tera West is hardly one to observe such passing fads.
Or maybe Fitz himself claimed it, in a fit of being a young male drama-queen.
... You all also appear to be applying it incorrectly it is a patronymic applied to both legitimate and illegitimate heirs
"We all" are working off the notion that Jim himself subscribes to the "Fitz means bastard son" notion.
(despite it technically just meaning "son of," it became widely-used in the Stuart era to denote bastard sons, and the connotation has been pretty strong for 400 years now)
In fact: by ignoring the WoJ that this is the intended usage of "Fitz," you are the one "incorrectly" applying it... ;)
... The important part isn’t the Fitz part of his name, but the part we are not given Fitzwhat? Who is he the son of? ...
Yes indeed! Fitzwhat, Fitzwho? You've cut to the very heart of the matter!
... Since when has Jim turned down the opportunity to cause Harry pain?
And there is the other side of the matter!
When we ask, "Fitzwho?" we should ask, "who in Harry's past would cause the greatest complication & pain for Harry, should their Fitz arrive on-scene?"
I think that Fitz is actually most likely a scion, maybe a Changeling. Remember Ronald Ruel had been dead several years by Ghost Story, so he would not have been around to look after him, especially if his father died around the same. Fitztalos perhaps? The claimed child of Marshall Talos of Summer who dies in Summer Knight.
Reuel wasn't a faerie, though -- no scionage there! The whole point of the Knight-mantle is that it brings the Court a Mortal agent (mortal agency & free will).
I don't think Talos was ever a sympathetic-enough character to fill the role of Fitz' papa in the books.
MacFinn ticks several boxes, there -- victim of a Curse, good-hearted philanthropist, ripped prematurely away from his true-love Tera. I think he's a better candidate (tho FAR from the only one!). Given the call-out of Fitz' eye-color, I think Tera West is the parent for whom we have the most Watsonian evidence (slight though it is); and MacFinn follows by way of Doyle. Plus, this makes Fitz a latent loup-garou. MacFinn is a good fit, overall!
Up-thread, I mentioned the idea of Justin DuMorne's son; the "but why Chicago?" objection applies even more-strongly, there! Still...
But how about Victor Sells' bastard son?
++Bastardy because Sells was married at the time.
We know from the Beckitts that Sells was actively pursuing "sex magick."
Harry's first (on-screen) kill, and we know how Harry feels about orphans! Sells' son...
so.
much.
guilt.
For Doylist use, I like this one a LOT.
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Harry didn't know anything about it; everything he knew about the curse, he learned "on-screen" in Fool Moon.
It was everything he could do, just to survive and keep others alive -- in fact, that was MORE than he could do, as several people died despite his attempts at protecting them.
Yes, from Bob.. However when told he understood what a Loop was. Part of the reason why so many died, is nobody, including Murphy could wrap their heads around what was happening. They ignored the warnings as to how dangerous a Loop was, and they died. Had no connection to Harry being able to lift the curse or not, though yeah, if he could have it would have helped.
I'd lay long odds on Mab knowing of a way to lift the curse.
I'm certain that one of Mother Winter's unravelings could undo it.
Angelic power -- if the Angel was free to act -- could lift it gently, or smash it with simple force.
Perhaps, but she hadn't entered the picture yet, and unless it was to her advantage, her answer to the curse most likely would be a shrug of shoulders since it was strictly a mortal problem.
But they are mere mortals; they have no magical talent, no great insights or allies to achieve their aims.
Maybe at first, but I doubt they were ignorant about what a curse was, they were well aware and had evidence that a supernatural curse was put upon their heads. When it was done, a great many wizards roamed the earth, magic etc was taken seriously at that time by everyone... So don't you think they would have consulted with as many "experts" in the field of curses both religious and magical as they could at the time and since in an attempt to lift it?
One key bit that I hadn't recalled... Apparently (per the DF wiki) Harry got some of his info from Chauncy??!? Which makes the info very suspect indeed!
Unless it happened off page, Harry didn't get much if anything about this from Chauncy, most, if not all of it came from Bob.
Unless -- as per the OP -- Fitz is a bastard child of the MacFinn line, so Harry didn't end the line...?
I'm unconvinced that Fitz' backstory is a MacFinn (tho I think it entirely possible, given Fitz' eyes & Tera's), but I think it highly-probable that Fitz is indeed the son of somebody from Harry's past... How 'bout (just throwing out ideas) the son of Justin DuMorne?
Too easy.. Heck, since Thomas is out of the picture for now, Fitz could be another half brother, or perhaps nephew.
Okay hear me out. We know the major players have been watching harry and in Chicago for sometime now. What if only a starborn can trigger the end of the world. Like the final conformation that harry is the Starborn rather than a starborn was doing the impossible. Macfinns bloodline can only end at the end of the world. It was an alarm clock for the major players. Like when the last of the bloodline died (thor voice) 'it was a signal that we are switches to (dr stange voice) in the endgame now.
Till the end of time, if the bloodline doesn't end, or till the bloodline ends, which ever comes first. Some bloodlines do end over time, I also totally doubt that the McFinns were the only ones cursed in this particular way. Bob describes what a Loop is, a, which says to me there is more than one running around in the world. Like describing what a lion is and looks like, tells about that lion, but he or she is one of many representing that species.
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... Yes, from Bob.. However when told he understood what a Loop was. Part of the reason why so many died, is nobody, including Murphy could wrap their heads around what was happening. They ignored the warnings as to how dangerous a Loop was, and they died. Had no connection to Harry being able to lift the curse or not, though yeah, if he could have it would have helped ...
My point is, Harry never considered "lifting the curse" as a viable method of stopping the loup-garou.
If Harry had had even an inkling, he would have considered it: Harry's rather good at that sort of "outside the box" thinking.
Instead, he just went directly to a confrontation -- a fight -- with a magically-strong, magically-fast, magically-insta-healing monster.
Not even Harry Dresden is that needlessly stupid! If he had known another way, he'd have taken (or at least considered) it.
... Maybe at first, but I doubt they were ignorant about what a curse was, they were well aware and had evidence that a supernatural curse was put upon their heads. When it was done, a great many wizards roamed the earth, magic etc was taken seriously at that time by everyone... So don't you think they would have consulted with as many "experts" in the field of curses both religious and magical as they could at the time and since in an attempt to lift it? ...
I expect they tried, yes.
I don't expect they got very far.
I doubt they had much to offer anyone with enough knowledge and/or power to do the job.
MacFinn of the modern era had some resources, though. He was rich; evidently, he had some spookyside contacts
He managed to get a pretty powerful circle built, to contain himself in loup-garou form.
Harry recognized most (all?) of it; it wasn't utterly beyond him (though building it may have been more than he could have done on his own, at that time; I suspect late-series-Harry could have duplicated it).
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The Loup could also be someone off a cadet line from several generations back. . I also question if a shapeshifter like Tera could carry a semi-human to term, and if it would be considered part of his bloodline.
A cadet branch generations back could have left Ireland during the Famine. Many did. Might I point out the odious Daleys in Chicago?
I doubt Harry could do much to the curse, at least without a great amount of work and ritual. McFinn likely did about all he could. Who could do something? Well, i think it also depends whose power did it. St. Patrick? I'd imagine a heavy hitter in human terms, but less than, say, a Mab. But if St. Patrick was just a channel from Above.... yeah, even a Mother or Uriel may be overwhelmed, if Above went in large. But ... likely Mab would work. Upstairs usually uses some restraint in their works... they found Michael's Panic room, and that was... Raphael? was it? a named angel, if not one of the top guys. But he didn't blanket the place with a monster veil. A good one, but I am sure he could have done more.
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My point is, Harry never considered "lifting the curse" as a viable method of stopping the loup-garou.
If Harry had had even an inkling, he would have considered it: Harry's rather good at that sort of "outside the box" thinking.
Or realized it was a waste of time once Bob told him what kind of curse it was to consider it. Especially once he met Finn, if there was any other way Harry would have gone for it. Also consider, when Harry met Finn, he was still very young in wizard terms, and his education from Justin and even Eb was limited, we also know from Peace Talks or Battle Ground that the Council made sure his education stayed limited, remember parts of the White Council library was off limits to him. So the only reliable source of information for him was Bob, and even he has limits to his knowledge and has been known to make mistakes from time to time.
I reread both the section where Harry first asks Bob about werewolves, Bob names them off, Harry had never heard of a Loop before. Bob says the last really big killing spree by one was in the 1600s and adds the only way to kill one is with inherited silver. Then I went and read the part where Harry asks Chauncy about Finn.. Chauncy tells Harry about him, then explains how his family was cursed way back when by St Patrick. And I think you are right, one of the bits about the curse was the Finn line will never fully die out until the end of time.. So just think if you are a cousin ten times removed or even a hundred times removed, you could be next to find yourself screwed one night by the full moon.. Also considering how Chauncy is and his attempts to get as much as he can on Harry, you'd think if there was a way to life the curse, Chauncy would have offered it in exchange for Harry's full name etc.. He never did, so I don't think there is a cure.
I expect they tried, yes.
I don't expect they got very far.
I doubt they had much to offer anyone with enough knowledge and/or power to do the job.
That's not the impression I got of their history.
MacFinn of the modern era had some resources, though. He was rich; evidently, he had some spookyside contacts
He managed to get a pretty powerful circle built, to contain himself in loup-garou form.
Which was the extent of his knowledge of how to keep his curse contained. And yeah, Finn was rich and had resources, so why was he messing around with a second rate young talent? Kim wasn't even an apprentice.. And while Harry did his best to answer her questions, she wasn't his apprentice. Harry was in the phone book under "W," for wizard. Also ask yourself, somewhere along the line Finn or one of his ancestors came up with that magic circle, which we also learn from Harry is very special and boarders on forbidden knowledge to build in the first place because of the kinds of creatures it is meant to contain, so why wasn't that wizard able to lift the curse? Because it could not be lifted and the circle was the only solution.
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... Also consider, when Harry met Finn, he was still very young in wizard terms, and his education from Justin and even Eb was limited ... So the only reliable source of information for him was Bob, and even he has limits to his knowledge and has been known to make mistakes from time to time ...
I suspect these are the critical elements.
Harry has only an approximate understanding -- no practical knowledge -- of how to address the curse. I liken it to a theoretical physicist trying to design a nuclear reactor: they understand WHAT is needed, but not (in terms they know how to implement) HOW to achieve that.
... Chauncy tells Harry about (MacFinn), then explains how his family was cursed way back when by St Patrick ...
I re-read the Chauncy bit, too; I noticed something (emphasis added by me). Chauncy said:
Sometime in the murky past, legend would have it, the man known as Saint Patrick cursed his ancestor to...
Note, Chauncy explicitly is reporting the legend -- not the facts.
Dresden challenges him:
"A Catholic saint did that?"
Chauncy made a sound of distaste. "I am not responsible for the sorts of people the Other Side employs, wizard. Or the tactics they use."
Carefully phrased to not be a denial of the allegation (though "conversational norms" would have it as a confirmation).
I'm not buying it (neither did Dresden).
... one of the bits about the curse was the Finn line will never fully die out until the end of time.. So just think if you are a cousin ten times removed or even a hundred times removed, you could be next to find yourself screwed one night by the full moon ...
Or if you are a Fitz.
Not bearing the name, but carrying the weight of the bloodline curse.
... And yeah, Finn was rich and had resources, so why was he messing around with a second rate young talent? Kim wasn't even an apprentice.. And while Harry did his best to answer her questions, she wasn't his apprentice. Harry was in the phone book under "W," for wizard ...
Harry's theory was that eco-crusader Kim met MacFinn over their shared drive for the big wilderness area.
MacFinn's ancestors could well have had bad interactions with the White Council; maybe he was unwilling to risk another such. After all... Kim clearly knew Harry was the better candidate to do the repair; she likely tried to get MacFinn to go directly to Harry. Why wouldn't he... except for knowing that Harry was WC?
Or maybe it never even occurred to him to open the phone book to "Wizard" -- it wouldn't be most people's impulse, even if they are looking for a wizard!
... Also ask yourself, somewhere along the line Finn or one of his ancestors came up with that magic circle, which we also learn from Harry is very special and boarders on forbidden knowledge to build in the first place because of the kinds of creatures it is meant to contain, so why wasn't that wizard able to lift the curse? ...
I think we should presume that the curse isn't easy to lift.
Maybe the warding circle was all that wizard could manage; I suspect one loup-garou (in immediate proximity) is easier to neutralize than an indefinite number of them, across centuries of time, across oceans & continents!
Also, maybe the curse was laid by somebody the wizard was unwilling to cross; if it were Mab's curse -- or Odin's -- how much of a bribe would it take for you to be willing to earn their ire by lifting their decreed punishment?
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Also, maybe the curse was laid by somebody the wizard was unwilling to cross; if it were Mab's curse -- or Odin's -- how much of a bribe would it take for you to be willing to earn their ire by lifting their decreed punishment?
Maybe Odin, but St Patrick came to Ireland in 425, I think he predates Mab.
Note, Chauncy explicitly is reporting the legend -- not the facts.
Yeah, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that. Legend is often based on facts, either an event happens that gets exaggerated over time, or something is made up to explain a fact. Plus it might have been Chauncy's way of trying to trap Harry into giving him more personal information to hold over him. Harry didn't go for it, let's us not forget that shortly after that Chauncy danced around what happened to his mother and father, but wouldn't come clean until Harry put his soul more in peril by giving him more personal information. Harry didn't dare go further than he did, in spite of desperately wanting more information after Chauncy baited him to go further.
One more interesting factoid, Bob says that to kill a Loop, one needs inherited silver verses just any silver. That suggests two things, 1] making them much harder to kill than ordinary werewolves unless you are aware of that fact or get lucky because you melted down Aunt Mary's silver spoon to make bullets. 2] I think inherited is important since the curse is inherited, somehow the two are related.
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Maybe Odin, but St Patrick came to Ireland in 425, I think he predates Mab.
I think St.Patrick is entirely an Infernal deception, here.
Yeah, but I wouldn't hang my hat on that. Legend is often based on facts, either an event happens that gets exaggerated over time, or something is made up to explain a fact...
You may be correct that there is some fragment of genuine linkage; but it's not likely to be a "truth" as spoken by Chaunzaggoroth.
Chauncy reported a legend (when he almost certainly knew the genuine facts) and he later chose misleading phrasing when challenged on that point.
As a demon, he's a congenital liar.
St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.
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St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.
Aye! Cursing unborn innocent generations? Sounds more like an Orangeman trick...
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Chauncy reported a legend (when he almost certainly knew the genuine facts) and he later chose misleading phrasing when challenged on that point.
As a demon, he's a congenital liar.
St. Patrick (almost certainly) did NOT enact the MacFinn curse.
We don't know how misleading, but he was deliberately vague. However one point remained true,
it apparently was a curse that generational, and the victims of it could do little more than what Finn was already doing. I'd wage that it wasn't he who came up with that circle but one of his ancestors.
I doubt that Chauncy is a congenital liar. If he was not a true source of information, there would be no temptation to call him up by mortals putting their souls at risk. He is more like a version of the Fae, except he doesn't say he cannot lie, but he will make you pay dearly for every word.
Since we don't know why the curse was put on the MacFinn clan until the end of time, we cannot say that St Patrick didn't do it.. He may have had a good reason to do it, and if he was able to rid Ireland of snakes, he'd also have the power to do that kind of curse. Having said that, more than likely there is another part to it that is missing, a way to atone and lift the curse. St Patrick wouldn't have done the first part without the second.
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St Patrick would have been clerical magician, his power comes through channeling the White God in the same way a Knight does, not internally like a Wizard. From what we seen of the Knights the laying of a curse does not seem within their bailiwick, but breaking it might.
The likelihood is not that St Patrick laid the curse, but he might have tried (but failed) to break it. Sainthood is designated by the Church not the White God. Michael and Father Forthill are not Saints, but clearly they are designated agents of the White God, one the former Knight who clearly retains the White God’s favour, and the other given special protection by the Angel of Death. St Patrick we don’t know.
That likely means an powerful entity with a wolf fetish and a grudge against mankind. My bet is that it was the Morrigan an Irish Warrior Wolf Goddess who laid the curse and it should be noted McFinn “turned” whilst serving in Vietnam. It may be a component of the curse that it’s bearers are drawn to war becoming the ultimate berserker on the battlefield. Any child of McFinn may find himself drawn to war and the military.
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That likely means an powerful entity with a wolf fetish and a grudge against mankind. My bet is that it was the Morrigan an Irish Warrior Wolf Goddess who laid the curse and it should be noted McFinn “turned” whilst serving in Vietnam. It may be a component of the curse that it’s bearers are drawn to war becoming the ultimate berserker on the battlefield. Any child of McFinn may find himself drawn to war and the military.
Or Finn was drafted like so many others who fought and died in that war. Finn says he was the only survivor of his company, were his fellow soldiers killed in battle, or did he kill them because he couldn't manage his magic circle? You gotta wonder about that, when Harry finds him in the woods he is trying to put together, but failing, a circle to contain himself with the material at hand. He needed Kim because, he, himself, didn't have the skills to do it. However we also don't know who put the sabotaged circle in place before Kim entered the scene. So what did he do in the fricking jungle during the war? Or during basic? He would have been on base presumedly for at least one full moon cycle. Or did the Army know all about him, had a circle made to contain him when they needed to, and released him to kill the enemy when they needed to? Was Finn used as a weapon like Agent Orange, and ultimately killed our own soldiers as well as the enemy?
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In the Jungle he likely aimed himself at the “enemy” and let go. The curse was designed to create an unstoppable weapon. On base my guess is he volunteered to to go out on patrol on full moon nights (the time no one would have wanted to go out at night) the stockade wouldn’t contain him. If he couldn’t pull night duty on patrol he would have gone AWOL. If on leave he would have gone into the jungle.
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In the Jungle he likely aimed himself at the “enemy” and let go. The curse was designed to create an unstoppable weapon. On base my guess is he volunteered to to go out on patrol on full moon nights (the time no one would have wanted to go out at night) the stockade wouldn’t contain him. If he couldn’t pull night duty on patrol he would have gone AWOL. If on leave he would have gone into the jungle.
Perhaps, but when in full Loop mode could Finn tell the difference between friend and foe? I really doubt it, that is how the rest of his platoon was killed I am guessing, he did it.
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... I doubt that Chauncy is a congenital liar ...
He's a demon. "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
... If he was not a true source of information, there would be no temptation to call him up by mortals putting their souls at risk ...
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).
Chauncy's overarching lie is implicit: that he can be trusted, that he is a reliable informant, that the risk is worth the gain.
Note that by making an issue out of "was it or wasn't it St. Patrick," Chauncy entirely avoids addressing who actually Cursed the MacFinn. I suspect the real information is actually important (since Chauncy took some care to obscure it).
You recall: by the end of Chauncy's scene, Dresden was shaken, and realized: he had been falling for just this lie.
Dresden never summons Chauncy again.
(*) Apologies to all antipodeans, who (I presume) are not all lying demons
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He's a demon. "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).
Chauncy's overarching lie is implicit: that he can be trusted, that he is a reliable informant, that the risk is worth the gain.
Note that by making an issue out of "was it or wasn't it St. Patrick," Chauncy entirely avoids addressing who actually Cursed the MacFinn. I suspect the real information is actually important (since Chauncy took some care to obscure it).
You recall: by the end of Chauncy's scene, Dresden was shaken, and realized: he had been falling for just this lie.
Dresden never summons Chauncy again.
(*) Apologies to all antipodeans, who (I presume) are not all lying demons
No more than the Fae, who cannot lie but are misleading at the same time.
As for Harry's reaction, it had nothing to do with what Chauncy told him about Finn. It had all to
do about the information Chauncy volunteered about his mother and father. His resolve not to use Chauncy again had everything to do with the fact that Harry had gone as far as he dared. Anymore about his name and Chauncy would have gained power over him. It also put him in serious danger with the White Council for calling up a demon in the first place.
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Perhaps he didn't try because there is no way to lift the curse. I need to go back to reread the passage, but I believe Bob said as much. I also think that McFinn and all of his ancestors would have searched for and found it if there was a way. The only way to end it for the McFinns was to end the last McFinn, which Harry did. However that doesn't mean there aren't other families out there suffering from the same kind of curse, so I wouldn't be shocked if there are more Loops out there, they just aren't McFinns.
The curse bloodline is, what, 1500 years old or so? Even if Fitz wasn't McFinn's son, that's plenty of time for there to be other cousin branches off the family tree for the curse to hop up and over to a next nearest relative.
As for the origin of the curse, I suspect Chauncey's "legend" about it being started by St Patrick was propaganda originated by the Denarians. Back in that era, creating a monster and telling the Irish "look what the Christians did!" probably would have seemed like a clever ploy to thwart conversion of Ireland.
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The curse bloodline is, what, 1500 years old or so? Even if Fitz wasn't McFinn's son, that's plenty of time for there to be other cousin branches off the family tree for the curse to hop up and over to a next nearest relative.
As for the origin of the curse, I suspect Chauncey's "legend" about it being started by St Patrick was propaganda originated by the Denarians. Back in that era, creating a monster and telling the Irish "look what the Christians did!" probably would have seemed like a clever ploy to thwart conversion of Ireland.
If Fitz is related to Finn in any way, yeah, the curse can fall on him, unless there is a closer relative. That's how the curse works and keeps alive.. However it doesn't seem to be a common curse, Bob said the last time a Loop really did some serious killing before it was killed was back in the 1600s I believe. Not a lot of them running around, Harry had never heard of them. So I'd say that circle has been in use for quite some time, it could be that St Patrick himself came up with that circle because he couldn't lift the curse, and Chauncy was twisting the truth just a bit. But I also think if Chauncy was a total liar, what would be the point of Harry calling him up for information and risking being controlled by giving Chauncy by giving him bits of his name?
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He's a demon. "Lying" (like violence) is his natural state of being.
He is *capable* of providing true information.
But he does so tactically, strategically.
Where possible (and strategically advantageous) he misleads (recalling that overt lies from Down Under(*) are one of the things that can trigger extra Response from Up Above).
I would not be surprised if Chauncey WAS allowed to lie, because he had been invoked. Whispering uninvited things in Harry's ear as he lies there was not solicited. Chauncey was. Harry called Chauncey out of free will
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I would not be surprised if Chauncey WAS allowed to lie, because he had been invoked. Whispering uninvited things in Harry's ear as he lies there was not solicited. Chauncey was. Harry called Chauncey out of free will
Well, has always been free will that has gotten humanity into trouble hasn't it? Ever since Eve of her own free will took a bite of that apple, offered Adam a chomp, and he took it of his own free will. No, I doubt that he could do or say anything to Harry unsolicited, simply because it does involved free will.
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Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question.
Harry finally realised this.
I really wouldn’t be surprised to find Chauncy working with Nameless/Cowl. How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? Nameless probably entrapped Ms Lapland and at least one Warden that way.
Chauncy could very well be part of the Circle/Black Council. For all we know the Black Council could be a firm of supernatural lawyer.s I won’t say “evil” lawyers, because well they are lawyers and it goes without saying. Add the Jann to the list and you have the firm of Nameless, Glau and Chauncey.
The other known Black Council member, Peabody was yet another paperwork type perhaps the firms paralegal.
We need to look for one of the Fallen bound to a lawyer, the poor thing.
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Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question.
Or more like Chauncy works like a slot machine, if you've ever played them you know that while yeah, on occasion you win a jackpot, usually if you put a quarter in, it might give you a few back, daring you to put more money in because there is more where that came from, right? Wrong, what usually happens is you continue to put the quarters in hoping for that jackpot that never comes.. Then you find you are out of money and luck.
Harry finally realised this.
Yeah, he walked away with a few more quarters than he began with, but quit playing because he knew that Chauncy would end up the winner, not him. And on the whole? No jackpot.
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I really wouldn’t be surprised to find Chauncy working with Nameless/Cowl. How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world?
The summoning rites have been out there. Sells used one. Harry did. They could have gotten the rite from where Harry did. We have no reason to think Harry unique here.
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The summoning rites have been out there. Sells used one. Harry did. They could have gotten the rite from where Harry did. We have no reason to think Harry unique here.
Yeah, I agree the information is out there if one wants it. Harry thought he was protected physically from Chauncy by the circle. I'd say Harry's circle was better than the one Sells had, if he had one at all. Not all circles are the same, and some are forbidden because of what they are designed to contain. That's why Harry refused to give Kim anymore information once he realized what kind of circle she wanted. He didn't buy what she had told him, that it was purely informational, since both could lose their heads for making one. He also tried to warn her to no avail that she was in over her head both in skill and experience. He thought he was doing the right thing by her, but he didn't know about Finn. Kim didn't tell him because she thought she could handle it, I doubt that she understood what Finn was, or how dangerous a Loop is.
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Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?
I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.
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I don't think the circles are BANNED as such, Harry just won't TEACH Kim because the ones she wanted are designed for things she should not go near. It's like teaching your kid to drive the first time - you do not give your son the keys to a 500 hp Corvette. It's not ILLEGAL to do so, but it is not SMART. Mom's Volvo station wagon is a better choice. It's like making nitroglycerine and mixing it with DE to make dynamite paste. The end product is pretty stable, but you better know what you are doing along the way, nitro is VERY touchy stuff. In this case, it's not the circle that is an issue - it's what's inside.
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I don't think the circles are BANNED as such, Harry just won't TEACH Kim because the ones she wanted are designed for things she should not go near. It's like teaching your kid to drive the first time - you do not give your son the keys to a 500 hp Corvette. It's not ILLEGAL to do so, but it is not SMART. Mom's Volvo station wagon is a better choice. It's like making nitroglycerine and mixing it with DE to make dynamite paste. The end product is pretty stable, but you better know what you are doing along the way, nitro is VERY touchy stuff. In this case, it's not the circle that is an issue - it's what's inside.
I have to go back and reread, but the circle she wanted to build, and the type of monsters and demons it was designed to contain, it was illegal or drew some interesting assumptions from the Wardens. In other words if you needed to build that kind of circle to call up whatever or contain whatever, you were up to no good.. Remember his buddy Morgan? At that point in time Harry didn't know he was really looking out for his welfare.
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The books tell you how summoning got out to the general public. A plan by the White Council to weaken the process by having everyone trying to do it.(Maybe White Knight or possibly earlier, I forget)
Harry would have learned his lessons from Bob about demons and summoning. Also Bock's Books.
In the end all roads lead to Nemesis in turns of bad things happening. He manipulates groups to achieve chaos.
MacFinn's circle could have been no older then Chicago unless it was in some way portable. That could mean the wizard who built it is still around and possibly corrupted by Nemesis. You can infer this because MacFinn wouldn't have wanted to share knowledge of what he was. Since he wasn't immortal it had to be done by a modern Wizard.
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MacFinn's circle could have been no older then Chicago unless it was in some way portable. That could mean the wizard who built it is still around and possibly corrupted by Nemesis. You can infer this because MacFinn wouldn't have wanted to share knowledge of what he was. Since he wasn't immortal it had to be done by a modern Wizard.
What I'd like to know is how Kim managed to sell him on the idea that she was even remotely qualified to help him? Good point, the circle isn't portable, and since it wasn't in a hundred year old building, who set it up to begin with and why? And how did Finn learn about it?
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Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?
I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.
Nameless is an interesting character but since he didn't appear in the books prior to The Law, by WOJ he can't be Cowl. As for the major things in your first paragraph, Nemesis/Justine pretty much claims credit for these when she thinks she has Harry beaten on the boat. If Nameless had a hand in pushing Maeve, Mab would have had a "serious discussion" with him and he'd likely still be in an exit interview like Slate's. I do agree that he could have hooked Marcone up with the Church Mice but telling Nic would be against the interests of his client, so not that part. Anybody could have been behind the puppies so he's as good a guess there as any.
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Ah! But he did but remained nameless.
I think we first see him as an unnamed dancer in Maeves Court, and Maeve refers to someone telling her about him but cuts herself off.
Think about it, he is Winter, based in Chicago and Maeves Court was full of discord so of course he was there, he is just keeping a low profile, and as the court was underground, that profile was positively subterranean.
I thinks Jim has been playing a game with us over Cowl/Nameless and has pegged him as Harry’s Archenemy all along. I think he will either get Cowl to monologue the whole thing, or Harry will assess all his memories and finally make the deduction. Listen doubtlessly works ultimately for Cowl, not the Fomor or the Titan.
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Well I can't disprove that theory but I think that stretch is worthy of a bungee cord.
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I have to go back and reread, but the circle she wanted to build, and the type of monsters and demons it was designed to contain, it was illegal or drew some interesting assumptions from the Wardens. In other words if you needed to build that kind of circle to call up whatever or contain whatever, you were up to no good.. Remember his buddy Morgan? At that point in time Harry didn't know he was really looking out for his welfare.
I think it was some of the glyphs in the circle were for containing "don't screw with them things". Sort of like walking to your local pet store in midtown Manhattan and asking for a cage for your pet. When they are thinking "Is it a parakeet? Or maybe a cocker spaniel?" and you are asking about inch thick bars that could hold a tiger or grizzly.... that sets off alarms.
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I think it was some of the glyphs in the circle were for containing "don't screw with them things". Sort of like walking to your local pet store in midtown Manhattan and asking for a cage for your pet. When they are thinking "Is it a parakeet? Or maybe a cocker spaniel?" and you are asking about inch thick bars that could hold a tiger or grizzly.... that sets off alarms.
I think it is more like someone walking into a pet store and asking for the kind of cage that would hold King Kong, but the person asking for it had no clue of what a gorilla even looked like. The store owner though knowing about King Kong, isn't allowed to talk about him because the pet store merchant organization forbids any discussion about King Kong, except among experienced zoo keepers. And yes, building such a cage without a license could cost you your head...
Fool Moon, page 8
To say nothing of what the White Council would think of a nonwizard toying with major summing circles. The White Council didn't take chances with things like that. They just acted, decisively, and they weren't always particular about people's lives and safety when they did it.
I think that pretty well spells it out..
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ah, sounds like a "stop by any means necessary" not a sentence as such but... if they die, they die.
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ah, sounds like a "stop by any means necessary" not a sentence as such but... if they die, they die.
From Fool Moon page 5-6
1] " The White Council of Wizards did no allow the discussion of demons that could be called to earth
beings of spirit that could gather flesh to themselves."
2]"But this third circle was built to stop things that could transcend those kinds of boundaries. It was a cage for demonic demigods and archangels."
Then if you jump to "Proven Guilty" and what the Merlin says about the White Council's views about young warlocks after they executed the Korean Kid. They are not going to fool around with an amateur who builds that kind circle to cage a demigod or archangel. They will assume the worst, "by any means necessary," means just that, fatal, even if it is messy.
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I don't read it that way. They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.
They would have likely had the equivalent to a "suspect is considered armed and dangerous" warning but it is an arrest team, not an assassination squad.
They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.
Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch-
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Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch-
It is the second book in the series, Jim could have changed his mind, but then again the circle has never been tested on page against the like. Uriel did shrug his shoulders at the pitiful circle a wounded Harry made to try to contain him in Changes, but that wasn't the same kind of circle.
I don't read it that way. They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.
It really wasn't a trial, it was more of a kangaroo court, that is what Harry objected to. That is what he insisted on for Molly, a real trial at the end of the book. But the point is not the Korean's kid guilt, and yeah, most likely he was not redeemable and deserved the chop. The point is what the Merlin said about the risks and the damage these kids do if they are not redeemed. The kinds of beings these circles are meant to contain are beyond dangerous, and are not spoken about by the White Council. Harry hints that knowing how to build such a circle flirts with the dark arts. It isn't just about having one of these circles in your back yard, but what you could call up with it.
They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.
She wasn't a minor wizard, she wasn't even an apprentice, she had a little talent. The speech Harry gave her about the circle, what it could contain, controlling such a thing sounded a lot like the one the Merlin gave him about young would be warlocks, the immense amount of danger, deaths, if they were allowed to live and something went wrong.. Which it did, and Kim and a lot of innocents died. No, I doubt the Merlin or the rest of the Council would have merely given Kim a traffic ticket and sent her on her way with a warning. You say a soul gaze would have cleared it up.. Maybe, but then again the subtle undercurrent in the conversation between Kim and Harry, it was about her attitude. Why didn't she explain about Finn? I think Harry would have gone with her and tried to help Finn. Kim wanted Harry's knowledge, but she wanted to handle it herself, she wanted the credit.. In other words she was beginning down the road to the dark side, I believe the White Council would have seen it the same way.
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Chauncy doesn’t lie, like a very good lawyer he tells partial truths, qualifies his replies and dangles ‘replies’ designed to elicit further questions from his victim, rather than answer their question ...
Oh no, Chauncy lies. He uses the "truth" (as you say: partial, and qualified; and embedded with distractions, red herrings, and other ("faerie-like") deceptions); but Chaunzaggoroth is a demon. He belongs to Lucifer, the Prince of Lies... whose Principality is lies.
Chauncy also tells the truth. He uses the truth strategically, tactically. It disarms his victims, sets their defenses at ease, lures them in. The "truth" is his stock in trade, it seems. But really, Chauncy deals in information; facts, divorced from "truth." The sun rises in the East... except, it doesn't: the sun doesn't move at all, but the rotation of the Earth makes it seem to.
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... As for Harry's reaction, it had nothing to do with what Chauncy told him about Finn. It had all to do about the information Chauncy volunteered about his mother and father ...
Chauncy hit Harry in the feels, with the info (and lures of more info) about his mother & father, and their deaths. He hoped to get Harry to make that final bargain.
But no, Harry rejected it; and then Chauncy made his fatal error -- he lost his temper. Harry had to contain him again against escaping from the summoning-circle, and banish him... and then:
I was shaking all over, and not only with the cold of my laboratory. I had badly misjudged Chaunzaggoroh, thought him a somewhat reliable, if dangerous, source of information, willing to do reasonable business. But the rage, the fury, the frustrated malice that had been in his final offer, those last words, had shown his true colors. He had lied to me, deceived me about his true nature, played me along like a sucker and then tried to set the hook, hard. I felt like such an idiot.
The closest Chauncy came to an overt "lie" was at the very beginning of the chapter, the opening scene, after he failed to initially escape the circle:
You understand, I must observe the formalities
Jim played it for comic relief, with the prim Oxford accent & wire-frame spec's. Chauncy himself plays it for comic relief, implying "see, really I'm Bruce Banner, that Hulk-out is ... just a formality."
And indeed Chaunzaggoroth must "observe the formalities" -- failure to do so will attract attention from Upstairs; Uriel's subtle hand, or just a good-ol-fashioned Smiting.
But Chauncy's attempt to get free wasn't one of those "formalities" he must observe, it was a genuine, full-effort attempt to get free, to get his claws on Dresden.
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Oh no, Chauncy lies. He uses the "truth" (as you say: partial, and qualified; and embedded with distractions, red herrings, and other ("faerie-like") deceptions); but Chaunzaggoroth is a demon. He belongs to Lucifer, the Prince of Lies... whose Principality is lies.
Chauncy also tells the truth. He uses the truth strategically, tactically. It disarms his victims, sets their defenses at ease, lures them in. The "truth" is his stock in trade, it seems. But really, Chauncy deals in information; facts, divorced from "truth." The sun rises in the East... except, it doesn't: the sun doesn't move at all, but the rotation of the Earth makes it seem to.
Chauncy hadn't lied to Harry up to that point, at least Harry thought he hadn't. That is why he continued to use him for information. I doubt that he had, every fisherman knows to catch fish you need good bait. For bait, Chanucy used the truth, then he tried to set the hook, but Harry got off the hook, then Chauncy started to lie. In the end Harry was pissed with himself for being such a fool to trust Chauncy in the first place.
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... How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? ...
Hell itself has strong interest in having these sorts of summonings available to mortals -- and has the means to get them into mortals' hands!
Harry says:
Chaunzaggoroth was a popular source of information among wizards who went to the underworld in need of it.
I think it safe to presume there are (at least) dozens of such relatively-well-known & relatively-oft-summoned demons, each with (at least) dozens of people in possession of a summoning ritual. Information-brokers, like Chauncy. Hexing/Cursing sorts, for those seeking vengeance. Incubi/succubi answering to the Sin of Lust. Etc.
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The books tell you how summoning got out to the general public. A plan by the White Council to weaken the process by having everyone trying to do it.(Maybe White Knight or possibly earlier, I forget)
I think that was a specific tactic for specific beings. Unique entities, whose summonings could be undercut by having many individual castings.
Entities like Chauncy are more dime-a-dozen, and it's exponentially harder when you have to potentially have dozens (or hundreds?) of such entities whose summoning's you have to undercut.
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Well someone is out there, handing out summoning rituals, magic books and wolf- skin belts probably just for the hell of it to sow discord. Almost as if they were a Demi- God of discord resident in Chicago. This may be Nameless/Cowls weakness, he can’t help sowing discord even if it isn’t part of a larger scheme, like undermining the Winter Court with the Nemesis Athame, or seeking out The Word to remove the qualifier from god, or setting the White Court and White Council at each other’s throats. How many of the events in Chicago that have impinged upon Harry are due to Nameless indirectly?
I have suggested he pushed Maeve in Summer Knight towards her course of action, did he hook Marcone up with the Church Mice and then alert the Denarians just for fun? Was he behind the dogknapping of the puppies? The Circle/Black seem to have been behind it in Zoo Day. Before Changes Nameless/Cowl may have been responsible to some degree for most of Harry’s Files, some by design, some just for gun.
It's worth noticing, I think, that the whole "Black Council" thing -- Harry's name for Harry's theoretical group (and maybe Eb's) -- is largely based on circumstantial evidence, on inference. Note also that the "Circle" mentioned in the conversation between Vito & Madrigal doesn't seem to exist: Vito went to Cowl, and their conversation made it clear that Vito was explicitly misleading Madrigal, who had no idea what was actually going on. Also worth noting on this topic is that Harry doesn't know anything about the Grey Council, or who is on it, besides what he gets from Eb (and that he saw Odin at Chichén Itzá); if Eb is a bad-guy (or just trying to protect Harry by keeping him in the dark (where have we seen that before?)) it could be that Eb thought a nice fat non-existent conspiracy (with lots of meaningless coincidences to investigate) might be better than having Harry cast a wider net.
It doesn't actually seem like there's more than can be explained by (as you suggest above) "a demigod of Discord resident in Chicago" (it's also worth noting, though, that Greek Eris & Roman Discordia were female -- I'm sure Jim knows this! -- and wondering why Nameless isn't female ... ). He can get outsized results -- and a variety of results -- by powering-up the low-level mortal casters, and by manipulating the bigger powers, etc... thus making it SEEM like there's some "Black Council" (or "Circle") at work... thus schismatizing the White Council.
Throwing some extra discord into Chicago, onto Dresden's shoulders, also thus isolates him from the White Council, and even from the Grey -- Discord for everyone!
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What I'd like to know is how Kim managed to sell him on the idea that she was even remotely qualified to help him?
I expect MacFinn knew relatively-little about magic, beyond his family curse. It's entirely possible Kim was capable of some magic that's flashy or showy, and could impress MacFinn. Maybe she was a sensitive, and could see the curse, impress him that way. Lots of ways, really.
... Good point, the circle isn't portable, and since it wasn't in a hundred year old building, who set it up to begin with and why? And how did Finn learn about it?
MacFinn's circle just wasn't easily portable, "fold-it-up-and-slip-it-in-your-pocket" portable.
But remember, Marcone had an entire stone castle brought from the Old World to Chicago!
One big stone flagstone? Yeah, that actually ships from Ireland to Chicago pretty easily...
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I presume MacFinn (or an ancestor) got it made for them.
At a guess, it's work by a wizard of the White Council -- they seem to have a monopoly on Euro-wizarding.
It's always possible that it was acquired some other way, or from some other source.
I had been thinking that it was likely by a weaker wizard than Harry, since it's got all this gold & gems & other needless folderol. Harry was going to whip up a replacement with chalk and some river stones! But then I realized: Harry planned be there to cast the circle, and hold it. It's likely that a circle made for a muggle to use would need all the fancy enhancements.
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I expect MacFinn knew relatively-little about magic, beyond his family curse. It's entirely possible Kim was capable of some magic that's flashy or showy, and could impress MacFinn. Maybe she was a sensitive, and could see the curse, impress him that way. Lots of ways, really.
Finn was no wizard, but he had put together elements of the circle to contain himself in the woods when Harry found him. Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic.. I also doubt Kim was the first magical person Finn ever ran into. He knew what kind of circle was needed to contain him, no, I think he knew a lot more than you think unless the curse was age sensitive, say he was free of it until he hit the age of 35 or something like that. Which makes sense, one way to beat the curse is not to have children, many become fathers before the age of 40.
MacFinn's circle just wasn't easily portable, "fold-it-up-and-slip-it-in-your-pocket" portable.
No, then who built it there in the first place? Why? How did Finn know about it?
But remember, Marcone had an entire stone castle brought from the Old World to Chicago!
One big stone flagstone? Yeah, that actually ships from Ireland to Chicago pretty easily...
That's a possible way, if that is what he did, he must have hauled it all over the world with him.
I had been thinking that it was likely by a weaker wizard than Harry, since it's got all this gold & gems & other needless folderol. Harry was going to whip up a replacement with chalk and some river stones! But then I realized: Harry planned be there to cast the circle, and hold it. It's likely that a circle made for a muggle to use would need all the fancy enhancements.
Harry was going to try.. Materials are important,and maybe just just useless bling in this case. Remember I think it was after Harry was made a Warden and had a regular paycheck, one of the first things he did was upgrade the circle in his basement to silver, I cannot remember what it was made of before, but I remember him saying that the silver made a stronger circle.
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I don't read it that way. They brought in the Korean kid. They had a trial, they soulgazed him, they knew he drove at least 4 to suicide. Drove dozens insane. And they still brought him in for a trial. And they brought him in.
They would have likely had the equivalent to a "suspect is considered armed and dangerous" warning but it is an arrest team, not an assassination squad ...
Yeah, but "considered armed and dangerous" is often enough to get the suspect killed.
I think they captured the Korean Kid because he was actually pretty weak. Likely a "one-trick pony" and not much of a foe for seasoned wardens. One of them could just walk up to him -- shields up, so they don't get brain-fried -- and knock him out (I bet Morgan's right cross would do the job; but they've got magic if needed).
They captured the Korean Kid because it was easy.
But -- at this point in the narrative, as of Fool Moon -- the Wardens are part of Harry's "threat assessment," he sees them as foes likely to kill. So he's protecting Kim from that (expecting they will kill her).
... They catch he, bring her in, gaze her, and likely tell her minor wizards should not be playing with this stuff. You are dealing way beyond your power level.
I suspect you're right... But Harry didn't think so, at the time!
Harry expected that the kind of summoning-circle she was proposing would be taken as proof of guilt, and she'd be executed for it.
Later-Harry (a book or three after he dons the greycloak) would probably realize the Wardens would more likely rescue Kim, than kill her: investigate, find out she was trying to contain a loup-garou, and either finish the circle for her, or kill MacFinn themselves. And warn her never to mess around with those powers again!
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Finn was no wizard, but he had put together elements of the circle to contain himself in the woods when Harry found him ...
Cite, please? I don't think you are recalling correctly.
Harry said that he himself could do such a thing, not that MacFinn could (nor had).
... Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic ...
Basic training is an issue -- a huge issue -- but maybe it is just down to Jim being careless. It's 8-12 weeks, depending on the branch of service (that's 1 full moon if you are VERY lucky, but probably 2, and maybe even 3).
HOWEVER -- MacFinn was rich. His family was in railroads. He could probably arrange timing of Basic for just a single-full-moon cycle, and then ALSO fake-up a "family emergency" that would let him go home for a day or two. This could be managed, with money.
But also (and IMHO the more-likely explanation): the MacFinn curse only affects 1 family member at a time. If the circle was imported by dad/grandpa/etc, maybe one of those elder generations was at home -- inside the intact circle! -- while young Harley was in Basic; then they died, when he was in 'Nam (and he used the curse to take revenge on the Viet Cong).
Then -- being the CEO of a shipping conglomerate -- he was probably eligible to go home and take over the family business.
... Harry was going to try ...
Harry expected to succeed. Remember: Harry grabbed chalk and 7 stones to go set the circle inside the police station. He was betting other peoples' lives on his success. He'd have been working on another plan, if he didn't expect to succeed!
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Here's one.... they say archangels - could this circle, perfectly drawn, hold Uriel? a Mother? I tend to think humans can't even channel that sort of mana. Maybe Jim should have left out arch-
It is the second book in the series, Jim could have changed his mind, but then again the circle has never been tested on page against the like. Uriel did shrug his shoulders at the pitiful circle a wounded Harry made to try to contain him in Changes, but that wasn't the same kind of circle.
Or, maybe the WC had their heads up their butts. They do seem to have underestimated the Archive, certainly. Harry told Luccio so.
It really wasn't a trial, it was more of a kangaroo court, that is what Harry objected to. That is what he insisted on for Molly, a real trial at the end of the book.
they did have fact findings. It's not really a kangaroo court when the guilt is plainly proven.
Harry hints that knowing how to build such a circle flirts with the dark arts. It isn't just about having one of these circles in your back yard, but what you could call up with it. She wasn't a minor wizard, she wasn't even an apprentice, she had a little talent. The speech Harry gave her about the circle, what it could contain, controlling such a thing sounded a lot like the one the Merlin gave him about young would be warlocks, the immense amount of danger, deaths, if they were allowed to live and something went wrong.. Which it did, and Kim and a lot of innocents died.
Actually, the Merlin treated Harry a lot less dismissively than Harry did Kim. Harry knew more of what could happen. Harry did not sit Kim down and say "What that is meant to hold is NASTY. You screw up any TINY detail about the circle, it gets free and dozens are probably going to die. You are putting a nitroglycerine factory between a school and an apartment building. "
Why didn't she explain about Finn? I think Harry would have gone with her and tried to help Finn. Kim wanted Harry's knowledge, but she wanted to handle it herself, she wanted the credit.. In other words she was beginning down the road to the dark side, I believe the White Council would have seen it the same way.
Or it was simply pride. "I'm a big girl. I can do it myself" Acting like some teenager eager to be of age. She didn't want help due to her pride. Not evil. Just immature.
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How else did the summoning rite for Chauncy get out into the mortal world? ...
Hell itself has strong interest in having these sorts of summonings available to mortals -- and has the means to get them into mortals' hands!
You mean like some organization that basically got a "How to kill black court vampires" book published as Dracula? Wo were they? ;)
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kind of circle was needed to contain him, no, I think he knew a lot more than
No, then who built it there in the first place? Why? How did Finn know about it?That's a possible way, if that is what he did, he must have hauled it all over the world with him.
Hey, the Pope and the President of the US bring their cars with them. Why can't he bring a slab of stone? If you have the bucks.....
Harry was going to try.. Materials are important,and maybe just just useless bling in this case. Remember I think it was after Harry was made a Warden and had a regular paycheck, one of the first things he did was upgrade the circle in his basement to silver, I cannot remember what it was made of before, but I remember him saying that the silver made a stronger circle.
I think it was copper. I may be geeking, but did you know copper is the second best conductor of electricity amongst the elements? the only thing better.... is silver. It may be the more power you have, the less material assistance you need.
Hypothetical example. It takes 100 wizard-volts to power a circle that will hold Chauncey. An aluminum circle loses half the power sent by the wizard to waste. Light, heat, whatever. Minor practitioner with 150 wizard-volts can't summon safely. Harry had 1000 wizard volts, even with the relatively cheap aluminum, he shoots out 250 WV to have a safe margin, the field is a 125 WV flux density, Chauncey is caged.
Harry wants to summon the Erlking, who is likely going to be pissed. His field needs 750 WV. Harry would have to have 1500 WV minimum. He doesn't. But SILVER has a 10% voltage drop. So his circle, he can throw all 1000 WV and achieve a 900 WV field. Erlking has to sit and listen. Still makes sense to be very polite, apologetic, and make it worth his while.
But note, with Harry's nice silver circle, minor practitioner would have been able to cage Chauncey. So materials do count.
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Somehow he managed not to expose himself when he was a soldier in Viet Nam, or during basic
But also (and IMHO the more-likely explanation): the MacFinn curse only affects 1 family member at a time. If the circle was imported by dad/grandpa/etc, maybe one of those elder generations was at home -- inside the intact circle! -- while young Harley was in Basic; then they died, when he was in 'Nam (and he used the curse to take revenge on the Viet Cong).
Then -- being the CEO of a shipping conglomerate -- he was probably eligible to go home and take over the family business.
I like this explanation. Also explains why centuries later we are not overrun with loup garous. Not all MacFinns are active. Just the heir to the curse, like the heir to a throne.
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Yeah, but "considered armed and dangerous" is often enough to get the suspect killed.
Oh yeah. They go in for suspected warlocks armed for bear. Like cops with an arrest warrant showing up with four of them with flak vests and shotguns and rifles. You want to take them in - but you are prepared to take them down.
But I think Kim could be cowed and go along with them.
Harry expected that the kind of summoning-circle she was proposing would be taken as proof of guilt, and she'd be executed for it.
might not be - so long as it had not been used.
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But note, with Harry's nice silver circle, minor practitioner would have been able to cage Chauncey. So materials do count.
Yes, Harry says as much when he mentions that he upgraded his circle. While yeah, possible that Finn brought his circle with him, what doesn't make any sense is him buying that Kim could fix it once it was broken. Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole. So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed. I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for. She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster. If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know. However her attitude had something in common with Molly's attitude, and I think if she had by some miracle pulled off that circle, she would be on her way to warlockhood.
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... While yeah, possible that Finn brought his circle with him, what doesn't make any sense is him buying that Kim could fix it once it was broken. Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole ...
How and where would MacFinn have learned such magic? MacFinn was the victim of a curse, subject to someone else's magic. MacFinn had no way to do magic.
He knew the circle needed to be intact... but he could check that with a simple inspection. He could make an ordinary circle (like any other mortal could), but he had no magical talent, he couldn't do a working, create a greater circle. If there was magical construction to be done, energies used, then MacFinn was as helpless as any other mortal.
As an analogy: plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c... But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.
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How and where would MacFinn have learned such magic? MacFinn was the victim of a curse, subject to someone else's magic. MacFinn had no way to do magic.
Sorry, wasn't clear, one can understand something, even how it works, but that doesn't mean one is able to fix it. If hemophilia ran in my family for generations, while I am not a hematologist, I'd educate myself to understand what it is, and whether or not there was a cure or a way to control it. That is just something you'd do if you knew it ran in your family, I doubt that the MacFinns were any different. So for over the thousand years or so the MacFinn family has been cursed, I imagine they have looked into ways to lift the curse, then into ways to mitigate it as much as possible. What did they learn? If they couldn't get the curse lifted, at least they could protect others and themselves from attack with the circle. They might know what that circle looked like and the materials to make it. However the MacFinns weren't wizards, as Harry tried to tell Kim, activating such a circle isn't as simple as your ordinary chalk circle, it takes knowledge and experience.
In my opinion, since that circle was so vital to his protection and the protection of others, Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it. So why was he messing with someone like Kim? Yeah, she believed in his cause and wouldn't give him away, but I believe it would soon be obvious to him that she had no clue as to how to go about building his circle. I don't think he was that stupid or naive to think she was qualified, I believe he was desperate. I believe that Kim was as dishonest with him as she was with Harry. She could have told him about Harry and that he could be trusted, she didn't, she believed she could handle it, if she survived, I think she would have eventually become a warlock.
As an analogy: plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c... But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.
Using your analogy, while your professional driver might not be able to repair their car, they understand how it works and enough about how that car is put together. He'd know the difference between a mechanic qualified[/i ]to do the repairs on his high powered car, and a neighborhood guy who tinkers with his car on weekends doing simple repairs. So off the top Harry says that wizards don't talk about the kinds of things that circle contains. He also says wizards who build those kinds of circles are suspect because of what the circles are used for. I bet that Finn knew that as well. I bet from experience and family knowledge, because of the reasons already listed, it is almost impossible to find a qualified wizard to agree to build one in the first place. So he may have assumed though he was in the phone book under "W" that Harry was a crackpot. But why didn't he at least give him a shot instead of the unqualified Kim? Maybe he didn't bother to look in the phone book?
Never fully answered, was who knew what he was and who wrecked his circle? Or knew enough about magic to know what it did? The same guys that brought us the belts?
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... So I think it is with Finn, over the thousand years or so that his family has been cursed, I imagine they have looked into ways to lift the curse, then ways to mitigate it as much as possible. What did they learn? ...
In my opinion, since that circle was so vital to his protection and the protection of others, Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it ...
I think we may just have to agree to disagree, here.
???
;)
First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations. Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages. Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).
Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide. I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!
Also: I don't think the MacFinns have had the kind of lives that foster reliable multi-generational knowledge... likely they've been forced to flee (abandoning everything (including ancestral records!)) more than once.
... Finn would have fully understood that it was no ordinary circle and needed a fully qualified wizard to build and activate it. So why was he messing with someone like Kim? Yeah, she believed in his cause and wouldn't give him away, but I believe it would soon be obvious to him that she had no clue as to how to go about building his circle.
...
it is almost impossible to find a qualified wizard to build one in the first place. So he may have assumed though he was in the phone book under "W" that Harry was a crackpot. But why didn't he at least give him a shot instead of the unqualified Kim?
I don't expect MacFinn had the kind of knowledge capable of evaluating magicians. How would you evaluate if one mechanic or another is a better choice to rebuild a transmission vs troubleshooting electrical glitches? Or which neurosurgeon is best to deal with an aneurism vs. a tumor? We don't know much about Kim's own strengths & specialties... maybe she was able to present some impressive-to-muggles feats of magic, which most wizards would recognize as fairly simple & low-powered. She may even have impressed herself.
Why not call upon "W for Wizard" Harry? Better an known ally like Kim -- with at least some magic -- than entrusting an utterly-unknown "crackpot" with such a critical secret! (YMMV)
... I believe that Kim was as dishonest with him as she was with Harry. Had she survived, I think she would have eventually become a warlock.
You may be right; I don't think the novel is clear on this point.
My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself: she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients). Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
... Never fully answered, was who knew what he was and who wrecked his circle? Or knew enough about magic to know what it did? The same guys that brought us the belts?
I thought Harry had concluded it was the Hexenwolves, looking for someone to cover their own tracks... or maybe that was WoJ? Or even just a fantheory...
Of course, Denton &Co are even less-likely to have the kind of magical theory to deduce the existence of MacFinn's circle, or to understand what it is/does; not even if they stumbled across it in a search!
The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.
We have a candidate or two... or more...
The "Black Council."
The Demigod of Discord.
Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.
Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.
Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox! They say each of us is our own worst enemy...
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One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
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Nor do I buy that Finn didn't understand how the magic worked, too much was riding on that circle being whole. So was Kim in fact just a clever hustler with some magical ability? I'd say no, because supposedly she believed in the environmental cause that Finn championed. I think one thing was true, she had no clue as to what that circle was built for. She may have known Terra West and thought a Loop was just a male version of her, dangerous but not a monster. If Harry had no clue as to what a Loop was until Bob explained it to him, Kim didn't know.
I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle.
I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.
plenty of professional drivers -- for example -- don't understand how cars work; not to the degree needed to repair their own vehicle that they need to make a living; air into the tires, add fluids, maybe even oil changes &c... But they have to take it to a mechanic to do the substantive work.
I think a lot of them, most of the pros, will know something more than oil change. Even if just "Something in fuel injection is messed. Maybe the nozzle? "
He'd have some idea, if not the skill needed to fix it. Much like, say, an athletic trainer "I think you damaged the ACL" - but he doesn't try to fix it !
Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble
Um, the MacFinns ARE the wealthy nobles....
Furthermore, the wizards who are inclined to do something "because it's the right thing to do" might just find it better to kill a loup garou than to help him hide. I expect the average wizard of the White Council would call the Wardens to handle a loup garou!
Maybe not. If you knew the curse is until the end of time.... and even killing Finn means the mantle (had to say it!) shifts... now you do not know where it is! Or what kind of nut it might infect! You help Finn because he is at least trying. Sort of like why a Marcone stays around - it's the devil you know and can predict. And if S*^#% goes down, you know who to look at.
Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!!!!!!!!
The obvious conclusion then would be that yes, the same agency that gave them the belts, also gave them the info they needed to find/ruin MacFinn's circle.
We have a candidate or two... or more...
The "Black Council."
I suspect the Black Council is another arm of the same agency. This is sabotage before the BC and their armies move. Damage stuff and create unrest.
Mab, grooming her future WinterKnight.
No. Mab would not be creating such a threat to humans. Mab's a sniper, MacFinn is a grenade. Mab targets much more precisely.
Some rando White Council wizard, looking to get Dresden killed.
Too unfocused. Again, too wide a field of fire.
Future!Harry, pulling strings that -- when he traveled back to see "who was pulling the strings?" -- nobody else was pulling, so he had to pull them himself, simply to avoid creating a timetravel paradox!
a little too contrived. I'd be disappointed in Jim. Next thing, we find out Harry is going to be fine, because he's just six all this time and Malcolm comes out of the shower at the Ozarks Holiday Inn Express on their way to Eb's farm.
One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare
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I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker. If he knew this much - he knows he needs a major talent to work on the circle.
My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim?
I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.
Or at least a guy that knew of one. Did Kim claim that?
Which supports the idea they are pretty responsible about holding down the damage and you would tend to want to help them, for the general welfare
Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply. While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here. It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why. If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.
One other point: I suspect the MacFinn circle dates back to the 1600's: IIRC, Bob reports that was the last major Loup Garou rampage on record, so presumably the MacFinn line has had the circle since (at least) that time.
There is no proof of that, but it really makes no difference because Finn's family would have understood for the past five hundred years what the circle is and what it does.. And yeah, something as vital as the circle has proven to be, they would have learned all they could about it.
First, I don't think this info is easy to acquire; not even for those with strong motivations. Generally wizards don't advertise in the yellow pages. Even after you find a wizard, most of the ones available "for hire" will have found it more profitable to work for a wealthy noble (in past ages) or to pursue their own methods for wealth-generation, e.g. on the stock market, or smuggling high-value small items via Ways, etc (specifics depending on individual wizards' particular strengths & proclivities).
True, only Harry does, but apparently some take it seriously, that's how 99% of his clients find out about him. Here is another question, why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?
My own reading is that the foundational "dishonesty" was Kim not being honest with herself: she wasn't "lying" to Harry, she was preserving MacFinn's confidentiality (much as Harry would, for one of his clients). Similarly, she wasn't "lying" to MacFinn, she thought she could get his circle working again. Such overconfidence is pretty common to young people... and of course arrogance is a common feature of wizards!
Which makes no sense, because it was vital that that circle get remade.. It was clear because of it's nature Harry wasn't going to give her that information without a little more information from her. He also flat out tells her she doesn't have the chops to pull it off even if he told her how to build it. If she had simply come clean with him, chances are that Harry would have gone with her to look at the circle and help Finn. She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level. At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.
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... But I also think if Chauncy was a total liar, what would be the point of Harry calling him up for information ...
Don't make the mistake of trying to apply an "always X / never Y" binary logic. Chauncy tells enough of the truth, enough of the time, to be known in the shadier parts of the wizarding world as a good source of info; he's not "a total liar" in the logic-puzzle sense of the Island of Liars & Truth-Tellers.
But he's Lucifer's front-man, his only real agenda is to get your soul for Hell... or just break out of a flawed circle & kill you (at a guess, dragging you to hell, so win-win for Chauncy!).
He'll hint at more-interesting / more-valuable info, try to lure you deeper into trusting him. He presents as a "reasonable businessman & info-broker," who only tries to break the circle because "one must observe the formalities;" that whole identity, the aspect of "reasonable," is itself a deception; a "lie" if you will.
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... I'd think with all their money and contacts, the MacFinns would have contact with the wizards. Have a guy on retainer. Think they couldn't get a White Council guy for a 10K/year retainer? Money would be insignificant to them.
I think Harry is pretty unusual in his money troubles.
In Proven Guilty, Harry explained one of Molly's options was to become wealthy from her magic.
From Ghost Story (where Molly was the Rag Lady, living on the streets & largely without financial resources) to Cold Days was no more than a year (likely much less), and she had done a total 180; a favor for the Svartalves got her a swank apartment, but she herself had filled it with top-grade goods.
Other paranet threads have explored wizard & White Council finances. I'm pretty sure that (if they feel cash-strapped, and aren't as pig-headed as Dresden) most wizards can easily become wealthy if they have even the slightest desire to do so.
I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.
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I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.
I don't think that is what Ed is saying, it is more like Finn has to the funds to do a swift search. Wonder if he checked with relatives? You'd think over the years they'd produce a back up circle.
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I expect Finn had some basic concepts of the circle... but he SURELY should have known how very dangerous a Loup is. And if he had the circle concepts, he might want to make sure Kim knows this thing he becomes is a major ass-kicker.
My point, how is it he didn't see through Kim?
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
He knows a little, and she knows more. The average guy in the street might not be able to tell the difference between, say, a 4th year college biology student and her professor. He just knows both know a lot more than him.
Don't have much to add to most of your arguments, except about the chicken dinner reply. While
yeah, most young people are arrogant and a bit know it all, Kim has a lot in common with Molly here. It could also be why unless kids with talent are taken under the wing of a wizard they fall easy prey to the temptation of using their talent to do stuff that ought not be attempted except by professionals, or if the professionals don't do them, there is a reason why. If they pull it off it leads them to think they can use it to more stuff, next thing you know you have a warlock on your hands.
I meant that arrogance is very common among wizards, and you had a very good point you made quite clearly.
You watch the kids not because of greater arrogance but because of greater damage potential if they go wrong. Like why you are not as afraid of the cocker spaniel that you know bit a kid as you are of the Rottweiler who has never bit anyone.
why didn't Finn simply ask Kim if she knew of any wizards in the area that might help him?
He was convinced she knew what she was doing. She thought she did. She didn't.
She compares herself to Harry because he isn't that much older than her and doesn't take into account, experience, training, and talent level. At that point confidentiality should have gone out the window, but Kim let her ego and perhaps her own ignorance get in the way.
Yes. Rather than look for the money to do this, take a finder's fee and bring in Harry.
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I think Harry is pretty unusual in his money troubles.
In Proven Guilty, Harry explained one of Molly's options was to become wealthy from her magic.
From Ghost Story (where Molly was the Rag Lady, living on the streets & largely without financial resources) to Cold Days was no more than a year (likely much less), and she had done a total 180; a favor for the Svartalves got her a swank apartment, but she herself had filled it with top-grade goods.
Other paranet threads have explored wizard & White Council finances. I'm pretty sure that (if they feel cash-strapped, and aren't as pig-headed as Dresden) most wizards can easily become wealthy if they have even the slightest desire to do so.
I doubt that money is much of a motivator for most wizards.
Molly got it big from the svartalves. They may be paying a stipend as well, not just giving her the apartment - but if you suddenly did not have to pay rent/mortgage/ property taxes... couldn't you upgrade YOUR gear? She found a rich patron fast.
We do not know how rich the other wizards are - we haven't seen them. I never got the impression Justin lived it up. Eb doesn't, but that could be him. Possibly Molly's talents could get her rich. Heck, how good a PI tail could she be with her veils? Industrial espionage? Her talents may be marketable. What does Harry do with his? He breaks things. Hardly low key, either.
and I think $10,000 a year to be on call is a nice fee when you rarely even get called.
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He knows a little, and she knows more. The average guy in the street might not be able to tell the difference between, say, a 4th year college biology student and her professor. He just knows both know a lot more than him.
Finn is no bumbling fool, and his "little problem" isn't something he knows little about, his life and others depends upon it... He'd know as much as possible about it. Kim knows nothing, she just thinks she does,that's the problem.
He was convinced she knew what she was doing. She thought she did. She didn't.
Then he was either a total ignorant fool easily duped, or desperate.
Yes. Rather than look for the money to do this, take a finder's fee and bring in Harry.
Except it never was about money with her, that wasn't what she was after. Notice, her first move is to try and bribe Harry with a steak dinner..
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Finn is no bumbling fool, and his "little problem" isn't something he knows little about, his life and others depends upon it... He'd know as much as possible about it. Kim knows nothing, she just thinks she does,that's the problem.
Kim knows a little - she knew the outer circle. MacFinn may not know too much - amd Kim had access to a WC wizard to ask questions of. He didn't
Then he was either a total ignorant fool easily duped, or desperate.
I think he IS desperate... [/quote]
Except it never was about money with her, that wasn't what she was after. Notice, her first move is to try and bribe Harry with a steak dinner..
Her first act is to bribe a man she knows has been broke and not eating well with one of Mac's steaks... not even a sandwich, the steak dinner - she's hitting him in a weak spot now...
Just came to me - in a later book, doesn't Listens to Wind pass along Tera's regards to Harry? I guess it is possible she met him later, but did she know him at this time? If he asked the gf, she knew serious heavy hitters... he didn't ask her? She didn't push? Or is MacFinn afraid of the WC?
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Just came to me - in a later book, doesn't Listens to Wind pass along Tera's regards to Harry? I guess it is possible she met him later, but did she know him at this time? If he asked the gf, she knew serious heavy hitters... he didn't ask her? She didn't push? Or is MacFinn afraid of the WC?
Maybe, but more afraid of them than himself if the circle isn't properly reconstructed? So he turns to a total amateur? Yeah, I think it possible most likely probable that Listens to Wind knew and knows Tera West. His people most likely know Tera West, which when you think of it seems odd that she didn't insist on him going to Listens to Wind or go to him herself. There is trust there and I doubt that Listens would turn Finn into the WC. Actually, why would he? Finn wasn't breaking any of the Laws, he was just trying to keep himself and everyone else safe.
As a group we've been struggling with this for years. Maybe the problem is this was Jim's second novel, and though the opening premise sound good, it doesn't stand up to logic or common sense.
Her first act is to bribe a man she knows has been broke and not eating well with one of Mac's steaks... not even a sandwich, the steak dinner - she's hitting him in a weak spot now...
Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry. Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all? Just how she asks him, well I have this hypocritical question about how to build a circle strong enough to hold demi-gods and archangels, but now answer as to why she wants to build it.
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... Wonder if he checked with relatives? You'd think over the years they'd produce a back up circle.
I suspect this isn't well known in the broader family. Too hard to keep it secret when too many know (cousin Jaimie tells his wife, who tells her twin-sister, who tells her husband, etc...)
The current "owner" of the curse probably -- mostly -- tries to keep his "heir" appraised. But sometimes there will be an asshole who doesn't care. Sometimes there won't be a clear, direct heir -- it may go to an obscure "cadet" branch of the family, even a long-lost by-blow (which is another way a family's accumulated "lore" could be lost to the person laboring under the curse).
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I suspect this isn't well known in the broader family. Too hard to keep it secret when too many know (cousin Jaimie tells his wife, who tells her twin-sister, who tells her husband, etc...)
The current "owner" of the curse probably -- mostly -- tries to keep his "heir" appraised. But sometimes there will be an asshole who doesn't care. Sometimes there won't be a clear, direct heir -- it may go to an obscure "cadet" branch of the family, even a long-lost by-blow (which is another way a family's accumulated "lore" could be lost to the person laboring under the curse).
I just don't buy that, mainly because the results of ignorance is so deadly. According to Bob the last time there was a rampage by a Loop was in the 1600s, stuff like that isn't kept under wraps unless the family is well aware of it. Heck Finn himself couldn't functioned in the military of all places unless he knew the ins and outs of his curse.
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I just don't buy that, mainly because the results of ignorance is so deadly. According to Bob the last time there was a rampage by a Loop was in the 1600s, stuff like that isn't kept under wraps unless the family is well aware of it. Heck Finn himself couldn't functioned in the military of all places unless he knew the ins and outs of his curse.
I think we should presume the MacFinn lineage was in possession of the major Circle since that 1600's date.
If they were able to keep the circle, it seems to follow they likely have continuous family lore since that date, too.
That "outbreak" (in the 1600's) might have represented a discontinuity in Circle-possession & family-lore. The main family line may have died out, and they were unclear who would inherit. Then they had to wait to find out who wolfed-out, and maybe it was a very distant relationship. Eventually the horror story reached the family-in-the-know, and they rushed circle & family-records to the site...
(all of which presumes the 1600's Loup (as mentioned by Bob) was a Loup of the MacFinn line, and not some other Loup; maybe the MacFinn's were safely under control through this time ... But I presume Jim wouldn't have written Bob's line to be irrelevant, so...)
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Maybe, but more afraid of them than himself if the circle isn't properly reconstructed? So he turns to a total amateur? Yeah, I think it possible most likely probable that Listens to Wind knew and knows Tera West. His people most likely know Tera West, which when you think of it seems odd that she didn't insist on him going to Listens to Wind or go to him herself. There is trust there and I doubt that Listens would turn Finn into the WC. Actually, why would he? Finn wasn't breaking any of the Laws, he was just trying to keep himself and everyone else safe.
And the fact the last outbreak was 400 years ago makes you think they have been pretty responsible about it.
As a group we've been struggling with this for years. Maybe the problem is this was Jim's second novel, and though the opening premise sound good, it doesn't stand up to logic or common sense.
Yeah, probably best to write it off as a lack of continuity. Just like Harry originally was described as tallm, but now he's 6'9"... who had the impression in the early books he was a full foot taller than a lot of men?
Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry. Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all?
Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak.... works quite a bit.
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I have this hypocritical question about how to build a circle strong enough to hold demi-gods and archangels,
This is likely going to be one of the inconsistencies. They may have thought it at the time, but i bet Mr. Sunshine would walk thru it like a summer rain. In fact, why wouldn't Harry have a circle like that in his lab, then? He's had the Erlking mad at him. He;s even circled Uriel, though Uriel said it wouldn't do squat.
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I think we should presume the MacFinn lineage was in possession of the major Circle since that 1600's date.
Well, something. It may have been different circles. Or, could this thing be caged? Could it be contained in a Highlands dungeon in heavy chains and 2 inch thick bars? Such cells don't travel easily, though
That "outbreak" (in the 1600's) might have represented a discontinuity in Circle-possession & family-lore. The main family line may have died out, and they were unclear who would inherit. Then they had to wait to find out who wolfed-out, and maybe it was a very distant relationship. Eventually the horror story reached the family-in-the-know, and they rushed circle & family-records to the site...
.... I am thinking possibly the curse follows the blood, not just the name.... the heir might have met some sweet French girl in his travels - perhaps aboard to study - before he was ever betrothed, and left her something to remember him by. He became the loup later, and when he passed, his legitimate son expected to receive the curse... and didn't... and the creature was free to prey until the family hunted him down.
(all of which presumes the 1600's Loup (as mentioned by Bob) was a Loup of the MacFinn line, and not some other Loup; maybe the MacFinn's were safely under control through this time ... But I presume Jim wouldn't have written Bob's line to be irrelevant, so...)
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ah, shouldn't be a Highlands castle... got thrown by Mac, which is more typically Scottish.. Irish more commonly Mc. But it does happen on both sides. They are closer to each other than the Sassenach....
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This is likely going to be one of the inconsistencies. They may have thought it at the time, but i bet Mr. Sunshine would walk thru it like a summer rain. In fact, why wouldn't Harry have a circle like that in his lab, then? He's had the Erlking mad at him. He;s even circled Uriel, though Uriel said it wouldn't do squat.
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Well, the circle that Uriel said wouldn't do squat was one that Harry did while he was flat on his broken back in Changes. It was more mental than physical, it wasn't the same circle as Finn had. As to having one like that in his lab, think he answered that question when he wouldn't show Kim how to make it, draws too much attention from the Wardens because of what can be summoned with one. Also through out the series he has managed to contain some pretty powerful beings with an ordinary chalk one.
Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak.... works quite a bit.
It is a bit more complicated than that, trust me..
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... Which is when you think of it a bit insulting to Harry. Yeah, he was broke and likes a good steak dinner as well as the next person, but did she think he could be bought off that cheaply or at all?
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I always presumed the whole "steak dinner" thing was part of Kim attempting to downplay the importance of the thing.
We MacFinn's backing, she could easily have dropped thousands of $$$ onto Harry as a "consulting fee" (since MacFinn was trusting her to do the work, he'd likely have trusted her that Harry was qualfied for the fee) ... but that would have shown the request to be something substantive, instead of just a "theoretical" exercise.
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I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC. I think the family lore is probably that going to a WC wizard often ends (sooner or later) in a Warden action, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.
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I always presumed the whole "steak dinner" thing was part of Kim attempting to downplay the importance of the thing.
Very possible, but it also underscores her ignorance of what she is dealing with. Not only that, but her total disregard for the responsibility that comes with that kind of power.
I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC. I think the family lore is probably that WC soften ends in the Wardens, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.
My problem with that theory is unless MacFinn was breaking the Laws of Magic, I doubt that the WC would notice him. Now it could be that the wizard that originally built the circle got into trouble for it, was tried, and was executed for that and number of other rule bendings.. Then I could see MacFinn hesitant about going to a full wizard. But Kim? She seems to be barely Paranet level, at least at the point were we meet her.
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Well, the circle that Uriel said wouldn't do squat was one that Harry did while he was flat on his broken back in Changes. It was more mental than physical, it wasn't the same circle as Finn had. As to having one like that in his lab, think he answered that question when he wouldn't show Kim how to make it, draws too much attention from the Wardens because of what can be summoned with one. Also through out the series he has managed to contain some pretty powerful beings with an ordinary chalk one.
Uriel is magnitudes of power above the beings Harry caged. He scares MAB. She won't speak his NAME she's so scared. Plus, didn't we have WOJ on a multidimensional continuum? Even multiple Mothers. One unique entity we have seen. Uriel. You think TWG is going to let creatures have enough power to cage HIS top spook? Uriel walks.
Women have been trying to buy men off with food since the first mastodon steak.... works quite a bit.
It is a bit more complicated than that, trust me..
I said TRYING. Didn't say it always worked. But it sure has in some cases
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I continue to think, however, that the most-likely reason for MacFinn's reticence with regard to Harry is that Harry is WC. I think the family lore is probably that WC soften ends in the Wardens, then the Loup goes wild, there are deaths & other mayhem, and eventually one or more Loup's / heirs get killed, until the Curse passes to some sufficiently-obscure cadet branch that the Wardens don't find it for a while.
that would seem awfully short-sighted, considering they know that they need a heavy duty circle for the loup. Letting any Tom, Dick, or Kim try to fix it? They seem responsible, considering the time between outbreaks (if the French outbreak was even them) - why not reach out?
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Uriel is magnitudes of power above the beings Harry caged. He scares MAB. She won't speak his NAME she's so scared. Plus, didn't we have WOJ on a multidimensional continuum? Even multiple Mothers. One unique entity we have seen. Uriel. You think TWG is going to let creatures have enough power to cage HIS top spook? Uriel walks.
I would tend to agree, but at the same time as far as the series goes at any rate, this circle has never been used for anything more dangerous than a Loop. However while a Loop is real bad ass I don't remember it actually having power like a demi-god or an archangel.. So was Harry right about what he said about the circle? Remains to be seen, or at least we haven't seen the evidence of it as of yet.
I said TRYING. Didn't say it always worked. But it sure has in some cases
I know, my problem I guess is getting information to build this circle is a matter of life and death, and she is trying to put Harry in a good mood by a steak dinner? Maybe its just me, but that picture seems all wrong.
that would seem awfully short-sighted, considering they know that they need a heavy duty circle for the loup. Letting any Tom, Dick, or Kim try to fix it? They seem responsible, considering the time between outbreaks (if the French outbreak was even them) - why not reach out?
Which, in my opinion is the weakness of the whole story line. Maybe it is true of most fantasy, one shouldn't try to think too deeply or logically about the story line. This story line really suffers if one stops and asks," wait a minute, that doesn't make sense.."
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I would tend to agree, but at the same time as far as the series goes at any rate, this circle has never been used for anything more dangerous than a Loop. However while a Loop is real bad ass I don't remember it actually having power like a demi-god or an archangel.. So was Harry right about what he said about the circle? Remains to be seen, or at least we haven't seen the evidence of it as of yet.
Yeah, the biggest BAs we have seen circled are Mab, Titania, and the Erlking.
Plus, we have to separate Word of Harry from Word of Jim. Harry may THINK it holds archangels. The WC also thought the Archive was on the level with the Fairy Ladies, and we have seen she is well above that. Harry can be just wrong. Isn't he the one who said Uriel could undo worlds... and Uriel upgrades to "Galaxies"? That's a few orders of magnitude....
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Yeah, the biggest BAs we have seen circled are Mab, Titania, and the Erlking.
Don't forget Chauncy, Harry used his circle for him, the others he managed to contain with a mere chalk circle if I remember correctly.. Also a chalk circle apparently protected Butters back in Dead Beat. I guess you could say back in Dead Beat Harry knew just enough to be dumb as my brother in law would say. His education was never complete, and he also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.
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Don't forget Chauncy, Harry used his circle for him, the others he managed to contain with a mere chalk circle if I remember correctly.. Also a chalk circle apparently protected Butters back in Dead Beat. I guess you could say back in Dead Beat Harry knew just enough to be dumb as my brother in law would say. His education was never complete, and he also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.
I recall Chauncy, but I simply do not put him in a class with Mab or Titania or the Erlking. I think those three would swat Chauncy like a bug. Harry used his circle on Chauncy because he HAD it. If I am a farmer, and I come home from hunting moose, and I see a raccoon trying to get in my chicken house, do I run inside to my gun safe to get a light rifle? No, I use the big rifle I brought to hunt moose - it's handier. Even though it is WAY overkill.
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I recall Chauncy, but I simply do not put him in a class with Mab or Titania or the Erlking. I think those three would swat Chauncy like a bug. Harry used his circle on Chauncy because he HAD it. If I am a farmer, and I come home from hunting moose, and I see a raccoon trying to get in my chicken house, do I run inside to my gun safe to get a light rifle? No, I use the big rifle I brought to hunt moose - it's handier. Even though it is WAY overkill.
But that is my point, Harry used a 22 on both Mab and the Erlking, while he used his 270 on Chauncy. And as an aside, I grew up on a chicken farm and a racoon did get in to go after the
chickens in the middle of the night, I was small but I still remember the pitiful cries of the chickens. My father had plenty of time to grab, I believe he used a shot gun, and he successfully killed it.
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[Harry] also admitted to being too lazy to really apply himself and study.
I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.
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I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.
I agree with that also, but by his own words, Harry says he was lazy about studying. Not until Molly becomes his apprentice that Harry starts to really apply himself. In Storm Front a lot of his knowledge comes mostly from Bob. Harry may of been mostly referring to his younger self, but that as you know is a critical foundation. Like a lot of very bright kids, they don't have to work hard to get by in their studies, so he didn't. Not that it was all Harry's fault, what Justin taught him he learned well, but Justin's education of Harry was limited to what Justin eventually wanted to turn Harry into, an "enforcer." However things like Latin, important for a wizard of the White Court, right? Harry was capable of learning it, but more often than not he cut class. Hell, he had no clue that the White Court even existed, so why learn a so called dead language? When he lived with Eb, it was mostly ethics that he learned and hard physical farm labor. Why? Maybe partly out of Eb's own guilt about driving his mother away by pushing her, but also in my opinion to keep Harry safe. Because young Harry had that much potential talent, and the Council was already terrified of him in many ways. So Eb kept many doors to knowledge closed to Harry, as did the Council apparently. Remember the comment about parts of the library at headquarters being forbidden to him?
Since Molly, Harry has applied himself, take veils, when we first meet him they are rudimentary at best, he complains he has no talent for them. That might be true, but when he starts training Molly who has a natural talent for them, he applies himself and by Battle Front he can pull off a decent one. Same goes for the Latin, he isn't comfortable with speaking it, but it is passable now.
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I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.
I wonder if his studying then might have been spotty, in that he liked SOME subjects, not others. Like a student who is bored in French class, but likes wiring circuits in physics class. Plus, not he has problems and seeks applications.... not dry theory. His crystal rod forcefield - it had a PURPOSE already. His rings, simple, then he improved on them. Storm Front he saw he was facing someone with the exploding heart spell - se he had to know what it could do. He looks for practical knowledge, not theoretical.
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But that is my point, Harry used a 22 on both Mab and the Erlking, while he used his 270 on Chauncy. And as an aside, I grew up on a chicken farm and a racoon did get in to go after the
chickens in the middle of the night, I was small but I still remember the pitiful cries of the chickens. My father had plenty of time to grab, I believe he used a shot gun, and he successfully killed it.
And my point was - farmer pulls up to coop, he has the .30-06 in the truck bed already. So he uses what is on hand. Harry is home when he summons Chauncey, so he just goes to the lab where there is a circle already. Easier to go downstairs than to draw one, knowing Chauncey could be dangerous, so he better draw it right. I think he summons Mab out by the lake. More respectful, rather than his messy lab, and keeps his neighbors safer. If he botches with Mab, he might be able to reason with her.
Shotgun works too. Gives you a little spread, too, if you are sleepy and it is dark and might not be as accurate as you'd be wide awake. And way more than a raccoon needs.
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And my point was - farmer pulls up to coop, he has the .30-06 in the truck bed already. So he uses what is on hand. Harry is home when he summons Chauncey, so he just goes to the lab where there is a circle already. Easier to go downstairs than to draw one, knowing Chauncey could be dangerous, so he better draw it right. I think he summons Mab out by the lake. More respectful, rather than his messy lab, and keeps his neighbors safer. If he botches with Mab, he might be able to reason with her.
Shotgun works too. Gives you a little spread, too, if you are sleepy and it is dark and might not be as accurate as you'd be wide awake. And way more than a raccoon needs.
However that isn't the point, have you ever thought why Harry summoned Chauncy in his lab, where he has a circle that is stronger than a mere chalk one? Yes,convenience is important as you say. But more importantly, Harry's lab is secret, he could get into a lot of trouble with the White Council for summoning a demon. If Chauncy did get he was as capable of tearing up Harry as the Frog Demon was. Chauncy is a thing from Hell, Mab, as powerful as she is, isn't.
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Harry's trap for Erlking worked but pissed him off. And dude probably understands why harry did it. And its probably why harry isnt dead. Imagine actually trapping Mab or Titania in a trap eventually they are going to get out. Better a trap that is weak that shows that you just want to talk and aren't dump dumb enough to actually try to trap them
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Do not underestimate Mab. The only things we seen in in the Dresdenverse that top her are the Mothers, angels and Old Gods/Titans. I don't think Chauncey measures up to that level. Harry is often an idiot, but even he doesn't something he can't hope to control without a pressing reason.
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Do not underestimate Mab. The only things we seen in in the Dresdenverse that top her are the Mothers, angels and Old Gods/Titans. I don't think Chauncey measures up to that level. Harry is often an idiot, but even he doesn't something he can't hope to control without a pressing reason.
Oh I don't underestimate Mab, it could be that she was humoring Harry by honoring the constraints of his chalk circle. Or it is something Jim changed his mind about over several books.
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I agree with most of your comment, but is he really lazy about studying? We see him researching stuff a lot--exploding heart spell in Storm Front, vampire cures after Grave Peril, etc. In Skin Game, while fighting Hannah Ascher he rhapsodizes about loving the Art and spending time on it, as opposed to just liking the power of it.
I think there may just be an element of it being a self-image formed in his early magical years, studying under Justin.
You know: during the time when he and Elaine were mostly interested in minimizing the time spent on homework so they could spend time on each other...
So Harry had this formative period where he was a bad student & lazy about studying; and to an extent, still thinks of himself in the ways he learned then (because "formative").
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I think there may just be an element of it being a self-image formed in his early magical years, studying under Justin.
You know: during the time when he and Elaine were mostly interested in minimizing the time spent on homework so they could spend time on each other...
So Harry had this formative period where he was a bad student & lazy about studying; and to an extent, still thinks of himself in the ways he learned then (because "formative").
I think this is a lot of it, however I also remember a comment that Eb made to him in Proven Guilty after he took on Molly as his apprentice. He said something to the effect that as a teacher he'd learn as well. Which he has, not just at the human level, all good teachers learn from their students, but to teach her well, Harry has had to bone up on subjects he had dismissed earlier in his life. As I said, one of the best examples is veils. In the earlier books Harry sucked at them, said he had no talent for them and never tried to improve to be as good as he could get at them. Molly had a natural talent for them, didn't really need teaching except on an ethical level about them. But because he had to work with her on them, Harry applied himself to learn more about veils, apply himself into making better veils, and now he does a decent one.
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I think this is a lot of it, however I also remember a comment that Eb made to him in Proven Guilty after he took on Molly as his apprentice. He said something to the effect that as a teacher he'd learn as well. Which he has, not just at the human level, all good teachers learn from their students, but to teach her well, Harry has had to bone up on subjects he had dismissed earlier in his life. As I said, one of the best examples is veils. In the earlier books Harry sucked at them, said he had no talent for them and never tried to improve to be as good as he could get at them. Molly had a natural talent for them, didn't really need teaching except on an ethical level about them. But because he had to work with her on them, Harry applied himself to learn more about veils, apply himself into making better veils, and now he does a decent one.
I suspect -- rather strongly -- that Jim was taking some info from his own life, and his background in martial arts.
There's a widely-held belief that, at a certain point in your training, you "stall out" and cannot progress... unless you start training students.
Seeing them make mistakes, analyzing those mistakes and working to correct them, deepens your own understanding. Seeing them do something that "looks wrong" -- but still works -- prompts other analyses & understandings. Etc.
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There's a widely-held belief that, at a certain point in your training, you "stall out" and cannot progress... unless you start training students.
That could be very true, what I am thinking of is all the times in the early books when Harry is attempting and then complaining about how his veils suck. He seems to be fine with that, as in, it is what it is, and never tries to improve, maybe modestly thinking it is as good as he is going to get at them? Which we find out later isn't true at all.
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On that basis Harry needs to take on a gaggle of student Wizards, Molly helped him in veils and illusions, other students would help in other ways.
We have a WOJ that Harry is going to be much more active in the community as a leader following Battle Ground, we have seen some signs of this in The Law but could it mean him taking on half a dozen North American apprentices? I can’t see the Paranet allowing potential wizards to go to the White Council, and Gary as an oracle could likely spot a new wizard first, and with his mothers crystal Harry can get there first. Imagine Harry with half a dozen hormonal teenage proto- Warlocks to train, as well as strong minor talents.
It would give the Merlin the Heebie Jeebies
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On that basis Harry needs to take on a gaggle of student Wizards, Molly helped him in veils and illusions, other students would help in other ways.
Maybe, maybe not. The lesson Harry learned teaching Molly is his own talent and power isn't set in
stone, he can always improve. Oh he figured out long ago that he could improve his "gadgets," his shield bracelet, his power rings etc, but he never figured out he could improve himself. Why? I think because Justin wanted him to learn what he wanted him to learn, thus he could keep control of him. So I think he drilled into Harry's head from a young age that if he wasn't good in a certain area, like veils, he wasn't going to get any better at it so don't waste time. He wanted Harry to know kaboom fire magic, but he never taught him how to control it. So for many years Harry assumed he was only good at blowing up buildings but not the subtleties of fire magic.
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Maybe, maybe not. The lesson Harry learned teaching Molly is his own talent and power isn't set in stone, he can always improve. Oh he figured out long ago that he could improve his "gadgets," his shield bracelet, his power rings etc, but he never figured out he could improve himself. Why? I think because Justin wanted him to learn what he wanted him to learn, thus he could keep control of him. So I think he drilled into Harry's head from a young age that if he wasn't good in a certain area, like veils, he wasn't going to get any better at it so don't waste time. He wanted Harry to know kaboom fire magic, but he never taught him how to control it. So for many years Harry assumed he was only good at blowing up buildings but not the subtleties of fire magic.
I think it's something else: Harry is mostly reactive. Mostly he reacts to threats & opportunities & other needs-of-the-moment.
In large part this is simply the needs of his life. He's a working PI, so most of his magical workings are in pursuit of solving his cases, and the needs of self-defense as he often works in high-threat situations; in the end, there's only so many hours in the day... and that stuff filled up (almost) all his hours.
Invisibility-style veils were hard for him. Fire-magic (as a counter-threat) was easy; self-protection potions (speed-boost, health, "don't-notice-me-I'm-bland", etc) were easy. So he never put in the long hours he'd have needed to explore/improve veils, because he had solutions that were "good enough."
When Molly became his apprentice, however, he needed to react to her... and suddenly, "veils" (and other magics he hadn't pursued) moved way up his priority list.
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The thing is though, veils would have been a huge asset to his work as a PI. Being able to sneak into places or follow people undetected can only be pluses. Molly's abilities would make her a main protagonist in many other series. As a team they'd be very effective with Harry being the muscle and Molly the brains.
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Invisibility-style veils were hard for him. Fire-magic (as a counter-threat) was easy; self-protection potions (speed-boost, health, "don't-notice-me-I'm-bland", etc) were easy. So he never put in the long hours he'd have needed to explore/improve veils, because he had solutions that were "good enough."
Again, he is admittedly lazy, that is why up until Molly he never bothered... As long as the stuff that was easy for him worked, he never worked any harder than he needed to.
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Maybe, maybe not. The lesson Harry learned teaching Molly is his own talent and power isn't set in
stone, he can always improve. Oh he figured out long ago that he could improve his "gadgets," his shield bracelet, his power rings etc, but he never figured out he could improve himself. Why? I think because Justin wanted him to learn what he wanted him to learn, thus he could keep control of him. So I think he drilled into Harry's head from a young age that if he wasn't good in a certain area, like veils, he wasn't going to get any better at it so don't waste time. He wanted Harry to know kaboom fire magic, but he never taught him how to control it. So for many years Harry assumed he was only good at blowing up buildings but not the subtleties of fire magic.
So you are saying that Harry is himself the ultimate magical tool?
I can get behind that.
One reason older wizards may appear more rounded and powerful may be that they have had multiple apprentices over the years. This improves their belief in the extent and range of their power. Indeed this may be a selfish by-product of the Master/Apprentice system in favour of the Master.
In addition Harry was trained to be a weapon by Justin, his initial training obviously shaped his belief in his power, but training Molly helped change that belief. Again a selfish by product of the Master/Apprentice system.
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The thing is though, veils would have been a huge asset to his work as a PI. Being able to sneak into places or follow people undetected ...
Kind of my point: He gets by with what he already knows, because he's being too busy to learn veils/etc. For example, he used a potion to get into the jail in Fool Moon. Only took him a short while to whip it up.
"Proved" to him that he didn't need to put in the time & effort to get good at veils...
Yes, obviously a veil would be more versatile, and can be whipped out whenever you need one instead of needing to brew a potion first. And when he got good (well, less sucky) at veils, he did begin using them regularly!
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Kind of my point: He gets by with what he already knows, because he's being too busy to learn veils/etc. For example, he used a potion to get into the jail in Fool Moon. Only took him a short while to whip it up.
"Proved" to him that he didn't need to put in the time & effort to get good at veils...
Yes, obviously a veil would be more versatile, and can be whipped out whenever you need one instead of needing to brew a potion first. And when he got good (well, less sucky) at veils, he did begin using them regularly!
You will also remember that it was Bob that dictated the recipe for the potion for Harry in the first place. He also out of boredom made a love potion that Susan accidentally drank first instead of the escape potion. So it wasn't even like Harry was making up his own brew, yeah, it took time and one has to be precise in cooking, but he wasn't creative.
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Kind of my point: He gets by with what he already knows, because he's being too busy to learn veils/etc. For example, he used a potion to get into the jail in Fool Moon. Only took him a short while to whip it up.
"Proved" to him that he didn't need to put in the time & effort to get good at veils...
Yes, obviously a veil would be more versatile, and can be whipped out whenever you need one instead of needing to brew a potion first. And when he got good (well, less sucky) at veils, he did begin using them regularly!
Actually no, Harry’s potion worked on all the senses, a veil only works on sight. Against the nose and ears of a loup Garou a veil is useless. A veil also can be penetrated by the third eye and by a paste made mostly of Tiger Balm.
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Actually no, Harry’s potion worked on all the senses, a veil only works on sight. Against the nose and ears of a loup Garou a veil is useless. A veil also can be penetrated by the third eye and by a paste made mostly of Tiger Balm.
Even so, g33K's point is valid.. Back in Storm Front and Fool Moon, Harry wasn't doing potions because they were more effective than veils.. In fact he was acting more like Harry Potter in Potions Class with instructor Bob calling the shots. All Harry had to say about veils at that point was that he sucked at them, nothing about potions being more effective. Though in Peace Talks he did come up with a very effective potion.
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The Peace Talks Potion was the same as Fool Moon.
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However that isn't the point, have you ever thought why Harry summoned Chauncy in his lab, where he has a circle that is stronger than a mere chalk one? Yes,convenience is important as you say. But more importantly, Harry's lab is secret, he could get into a lot of trouble with the White Council for summoning a demon. If Chauncy did get he was as capable of tearing up Harry as the Frog Demon was. Chauncy is a thing from Hell, Mab, as powerful as she is, isn't.
Chauncey is a lot more aggressive. He may be from Hell, but he is not vaguely on Mab's power level. Harry's circle for Mab is observing the proprieties. Heck, he circled URIEL. He circled Chauncey to make sure to keep himself SAFE.
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I think there may just be an element of it being a self-image formed in his early magical years, studying under Justin.
You know: during the time when he and Elaine were mostly interested in minimizing the time spent on homework so they could spend time on each other...
So Harry had this formative period where he was a bad student & lazy about studying; and to an extent, still thinks of himself in the ways he learned then (because "formative").
Well, also he got trained on shields with Justin throwing baseballs at him.... make a mistake and it HURTS. Not a great incentive to start to learn new things.
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Chauncey is a lot more aggressive. He may be from Hell, but he is not vaguely on Mab's power level. Harry's circle for Mab is observing the proprieties. Heck, he circled URIEL. He circled Chauncey to make sure to keep himself SAFE.
Which shows Harry wasn't in his right mind because it amused Uriel, but as Uriel said, it wouldn't have stopped him.
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Maybe Uriel would have been offended if Harry hadn’t tried to circle him? Harry at least tried to take what he thought was a sensible precaution.
However we know that there is only one Uriel in the entire multiverse, he exists simultaneously in every universe, so you would have to draw a circle around the Multiverse to contain him. That’s what Uriel probably found so amusing, not that Uriel could bust through any circle Harry might devise, but it could never capture him in the first place. On the other hand it is one Mab per universe and Harry was able to circle Titania. When he tried it with the Mothers that didn’t work, so I presume the Mothers aside from being the full intellectus exist multiversally like Uriel and are incapable of being circled
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Maybe Uriel would have been offended if Harry hadn’t tried to circle him? Harry at least tried to take what he thought was a sensible precaution.
Naw, Uriel isn't that small a being, it merely amused him that Harry even thought it was possible. It shows that there still is a lot in the universe that Harry doesn't know about.
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Maybe Uriel would have been offended if Harry hadn’t tried to circle him? Harry at least tried to take what he thought was a sensible precaution.
However we know that there is only one Uriel in the entire multiverse, he exists simultaneously in every universe, so you would have to draw a circle around the Multiverse to contain him. That’s what Uriel probably found so amusing, not that Uriel could bust through any circle Harry might devise, but it could never capture him in the first place. On the other hand it is one Mab per universe and Harry was able to circle Titania. When he tried it with the Mothers that didn’t work, so I presume the Mothers aside from being the full intellectus exist multiversally like Uriel and are incapable of being circled
I think we had WOJ they are universal. I think they just have too much mojo. Much like they could not lure Ethnieu into a circle and activate it. She'd just break out.
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I think we had WOJ they are universal. I think they just have too much mojo. Much like they could not lure Ethnieu into a circle and activate it. She'd just break out.
As it was, it took all of Harry's mental power along with Bob to keep her trapped long enough to do what needed to be done to ship her to Demonreach, they nearly failed.
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As it was, it took all of Harry's mental power along with Bob to keep her trapped long enough to do what needed to be done to ship her to Demonreach, they nearly failed.
And, one presumes, the Spear of Destiny (or whatever that artifact was, from Hades' vault). THAT, I think, was the crucial element.
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And, one presumes, the Spear of Destiny (or whatever that artifact was, from Hades' vault). THAT, I think, was the crucial element.
Agreed, without that I don't think Harry could of pulled it off, it was still close. He needed the Spear and a bit of help from Marcone/Namshiel to get that vital drop of blood to call up Alfred.
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And, one presumes, the Spear of Destiny (or whatever that artifact was, from Hades' vault). THAT, I think, was the crucial element.
Yes the Spear opens up possibilities which didn’t previously exist, or were not realised in this case allowing Harry to realise Ethnui’s boast about killing the Carpenters was wrong, this realisation boosted his will and allowed him to erode Ethnui’s. Think about it like the time stone in End Game, it allows Harry to select the possibilities where he wins, but he has to seize the chance.
I suspect the Spear is especially potent in Harry’s hands as a Starborn, Harry has been unusually resistant to prophecy, entropy curses and death curses, all things designed to shape destiny but as a Starborn it gives Harry a partial shield to such things. The Spear turns this shield into a sword, allowing him to not only protect himself, but reshape the destinies of others. This is why Alfred was happy to suggest he take the Spear in facing Ethnui nut perplexed about the placard.he saw no use in the latter.
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... I suspect the Spear is especially potent in Harry’s hands as a Starborn, Harry has been unusually resistant to prophecy, entropy curses and death curses, all things designed to shape destiny but as a Starborn it gives Harry a partial shield to such things ...
That's an interesting theory, that being a Starborn gives him an extra "leg up" on the whole "destiny" schtick; do we have direct canon or WoJ on this point?
I don't think "death curses" are evidence, here: I think Harry just found a loophole in Cassius' curse (and he had to become a ghost to do it! So, it was a pretty-extreme reach, to get to that loophole; Odin himself suggests it's a pretty-rare occurence ... )
Also, I think the only "entropy curses" Harry dealt with were Papa Raith's, which seem to be Outsider-powered (so a Starborn already has the wherewithal to deal with those, without invoking further "destiny" powers).
The "Barabbus Curse" (an inescapable death, which is a pretty damned "destiny" sorta thing!) from Death Masks was Denarian, not Outsider ... but it was I think Shiro who broke that, not Dresden (and we know that the KotC's have their own freakin' "Destiny" powers!).
Early on, Marcone saves Harry from Capiorcorpus & the ghoul; Gard warns Marcone that it was Harry's "destiny" to die there; again, not Dresden's doing (I actually suspect Uriel's hand, here).
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I don't think "death curses" are evidence, here: I think Harry just found a loophole in Cassius' curse (and he had to become a ghost to do it! So, it was a pretty-extreme reach, to get to that loophole; Odin himself suggests it's a pretty-rare occurence ... )
I don't think Harry found a loophole so much as it wasn't the brightest curse in the matchbox. Yeah, it sounds horrible, "die alone.." But for starters, Harry was only mostly dead, he never was all dead. Second, he was still conscious when he hit the water into Mab's arms, so if he went all dead, he wasn't alone. Lastly and most importantly, when Malcolm told him "everyone goes through that door alone," it took all the sting and fear out of the curse. So Harry still might very well die alone, but it is more of a shrug of shoulders than a curse or fear, as Malcolm told him, he might die alone but then go into the arms of those who love him who have passed on before him.
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That's an interesting theory, that being a Starborn gives him an extra "leg up" on the whole "destiny" schtick; do we have direct canon or WoJ on this point?
I don't think "death curses" are evidence, here: I think Harry just found a loophole in Cassius' curse (and he had to become a ghost to do it! So, it was a pretty-extreme reach, to get to that loophole; Odin himself suggests it's a pretty-rare occurence ... )
Also, I think the only "entropy curses" Harry dealt with were Papa Raith's, which seem to be Outsider-powered (so a Starborn already has the wherewithal to deal with those, without invoking further "destiny" powers).
The "Barabbus Curse" (an inescapable death, which is a pretty damned "destiny" sorta thing!) from Death Masks was Denarian, not Outsider ... but it was I think Shiro who broke that, not Dresden (and we know that the KotC's have their own freakin' "Destiny" powers!).
Early on, Marcone saves Harry from Capiorcorpus & the ghoul; Gard warns Marcone that it was Harry's "destiny" to die there; again, not Dresden's doing (I actually suspect Uriel's hand, here).
We have WOJ that a decision of Harry in GP caused the universe split which is to be used in MM. not every person can make a decision which causes universes to divide. Harry has had so much aimed at him which should be inescapable, yet Harry escapes, deflects or diminishes the peril. Same with the Bloodline Curse in Changes, it got turned around on the Red Court. Harry is like the Spear, his destiny is not fixed and the Spear which does the same for non-Starborn amplifies this in Harry.
Listen or Drakul must not get The Spear. It is Harry’s ultimate advantage over another Starborn.