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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Kvothe on October 24, 2022, 12:30:50 AM
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Does everyone really believe that Justin was killed by Harry?
I can’t believe that he would allow a 16 year old wizard in training to best him.
Thoughts ?
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Does everyone really believe that Justin was killed by Harry?
I can’t believe that he would allow a 16 year old wizard in training to best him.
Thoughts ?
If Harry legitimately turned a Walker on him, all bets of relative power are off.
But no... "Justin survived" is a very popular fantheory.
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It part of the reason the WC fears him. A 16 year old beat and killed a full warden who survived kemmler. There is a Woj that justin is dead, dead and dead but jim could be telling the truth from a certain point of view
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Also bear in mind... Justin could have believed he had Harry enthralled when Harry turned about and possibly freed the Walker who had a grudge against being summoned. Like against Sells. HWWB easily had Justin outmatched
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Keep in mind, overconfidence can be a killer, for the reasons stated, Justin may have thought that
a sixteen year old kid wouldn't have a chance against him. That leaves him open for a sucker punch, we all know that when Harry is in survival mode, he comes up with those quite often. Also Harry is a star child, which means he isn't just any sixteen year old apprentice.
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Keep in mind, overconfidence can be a killer, for the reasons stated, Justin may have thought that
a sixteen year old kid wouldn't have a chance against him. That leaves him open for a sucker punch, we all know that when Harry is in survival mode, he comes up with those quite often. Also Harry is a star child, which means he isn't just any sixteen year old apprentice.
If Harry genuinely killed Justin, I suspect HWWB was involved. Maybe just the act of fighting-off the outsider created some sort of backwash-effect that Justin hadn't been prepared for... I expect that 1% of an Outsider's power, even undirected, would have been crippling to any non-Starborn mortal wizard.
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If Harry genuinely killed Justin, I suspect HWWB was involved. Maybe just the act of fighting-off the outsider created some sort of backwash-effect that Justin hadn't been prepared for... I expect that 1% of an Outsider's power, even undirected, would have been crippling to any non-Starborn mortal wizard.
I don't think HWWB was involved, simply because of the gas station incident when Harry first encountered him and blew him up. I also doubt that Harry even knew at that point in time how to summon an Outsider, and was totally freaked by his battle with HWWB. Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed. If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it. Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.
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... Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed. If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it. Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.
I believe the WOJ was that *almost* all she gave him was confidence. So she didn't do something massive to actually make him much stronger than he was before bargaining with her, but there was something subtle ... perhaps something to help him resist enthrallment?
I don't think it had anything to do with turning the Walker back against Justin, though. I'm not even sure the Walker's involvement was anything so straightforward as Harry's interpretation that Justin sent it after him, and I'm even more doubtful it was still involved after getting its body blown up.
I also think there was more to the fight than Harry remembers. Elaine seems to say in SK that she got out while they were fighting and Justin was distracted - that doesn't sound like Harry won with a single hard fast suckerpunch.
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Justin is alive and well in some part of the Multiverse.
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So for a WAG, Mirror Justin and Elaine are Cowl and Kumori? They fled here to escape Mirror Harry's search.
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No, Justin would also be dead in the Mirrorverse because he died before Grave Peril.
But one way to screw with Harry would be to bring a Justin from a universe where Justin never met Harry but went to the dark side. I am surprised Jim hasn’t done that yet, Harry could confirm via his Third Eye or Soulgaze it is Justin not an illusion or something. Imagine if something started throwing all of Harry’s early dead enemies at him in a wave Justin, Sells, Denton and the Hexenwolves, Kravos, Bianca etc. Perhaps something for the BAT?
Since initial speculation on Kumori’s identity we have had more story, Kumori means Shadow in Japanese and we now have Mouses brother MyShadow from Zoo Day
Besides Nameless is Cowl
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There is a WoJ that Cowl is someone that had been in the story before so that can't be Nameless because he is brand new.
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We probably saw him in the crowd scene at Maeves Court in Summer Knight my guess the unnamed male dancer with strong hands (Harry was looking at his female partner) and Maeve says at one point “Not so untameable as he claimed” and Harry asks who and Maeve dismisses it. She could have been referring to Lloyd Slate who is later introduced in that scene, but maybe someone she doesn’t want to name. Lloyd had only just encountered a disguised Slare, Cowl had seen him and seen his plan ruined in Grave Peril by Harry’s refusal to comply with his part in it.
I would theorise that Nameless had long been part of Maeves Court, one of the things which led to the Redcap being assigned to her. Nameless was likely the brains behind the scheme to disrupt the Courts playing both Summer and Winter. If so when Maeves Court moved to Chicago it is likely he moved with them. It’s why he had the disguise in GP. On this basis Elaine was Nameless contact in Summer and was Kumori, at least until her obligation to Nameless was discharged. We see Kumori only in GP and DB so something happened in or just after DB which caused the discharge the following book Proven Guilty saw the attack on Arctis Tor and From The Law it was at this point Mab’s suspicion fell on Nameless leading to his exile.
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I don't think HWWB was involved, simply because of the gas station incident when Harry first encountered him and blew him up. I also doubt that Harry even knew at that point in time how to summon an Outsider, and was totally freaked by his battle with HWWB. Lea may have had something to do with Justin's defeat, though Jim has said that all she gave Harry was confidence.
Like I said, Justin may have been over confident, got careless because he thought he knew what Harry could do, and that was all that Harry needed. If I remember correctly Justin's death was due to a lot of KABOOM from Harry causing the house to burn down and him with it. Remember the KABOOM was so big that until Summer Knight Harry thought he had killed Elaine along with Justin.
HWWB needn't have been *intentionally* involved.
Just the act of Harry unbinding the Outsider-summoning (Harry only could manage it because he was a Starborn, & it was an Outsider) might have had all sorts of nasty consequences for Justin...
If there was even a fraction of a second where HWWB's only-partially-bound power (as it is being dismissed back through the Outer Gates) might have backwashed onto Justin, he could still have been in very bad shape when Harry went back ...
Entirely hypothetical theorycrafting. But WoJ is that Justin is dead-dead; and, as noted: a 16-year-old half trained wizard (even with Harry's native strength) is unlikely to have taken down:
- a senior warden
- with enough combat-chops to have been in on the final showdown with Kemmler
- plus the added power-ups from Black Magic (well known to be a shortcut to extra power).
That kind of combat wizard just doesn't let their guard down enough for anyone to "sucker punch" them, no matter how confident they are that the foe isn't a threat.
So it's worth looking for some additional reason for Justin to be dead-dead. HWWB is a good reason, right to hand.
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Entirely hypothetical theorycrafting. But WoJ is that Justin is dead-dead; and, as noted: a 16-year-old half trained wizard (even with Harry's native strength) is unlikely to have taken down:
Oh I don't know, a sixteen year old very powerful half trained wizard can get lucky, just like he did with HWWB if he is scared enough. Also we don't know what was going though Justin's mind at the time. He may have pulled his punches a bit because he really didn't want to kill young Harry. A dead kid wouldn't make a very good enforcer, also would call attention to what he was up to. When we first meet him, Harry admits to being lazy about learning his skills, Justin may have underestimated him... As I said, all of the above leaves him vulnerable to a sucker punch, a huge KABOOM that only a frightened kid could pull off.
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Two barrels HWWB AND Lea. I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker and more than capable in aiding Harry in turning a Walker back upon Justin.
Justin in the main Dresdenverse is the proverbial dead parrot. He probably was working for Nameless, and was tasked with recovering Bob following Kemmlers defeat and later collecting Wizard Starborn and to try and turn them to The Circle/Black Council, but Nameless was aware of this failure hence it is likely Nameless who Maeve is referring to. By this point three of his schemes had already been thwarted by Harry if indeed as I posit Cowl is Nameless
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Two barrels HWWB AND Lea. I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker and more than capable in aiding Harry in turning a Walker back upon Justin.
Justin in the main Dresdenverse is the proverbial dead parrot. He probably was working for Nameless, and was tasked with recovering Bob following Kemmlers defeat and later collecting Wizard Starborn and to try and turn them to The Circle/Black Council, but Nameless was aware of this failure hence it is likely Nameless who Maeve is referring to. By this point three of his schemes had already been thwarted by Harry if indeed as I posit Cowl is Nameless
Even if Lea is as powerful as a Walker, which I doubt, I think HWWB was described as a prince among them. I thought his power level was more towards angel level.
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Even if Lea is as powerful as a Walker, which I doubt, I think HWWB was described as a prince among them. I thought his power level was more towards angel level.
I believe Lash told Harry that he was a great knight among the Outsiders.
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... I would posit Lea (She Who Likes To Walk Hounds) is more powerful than a single Walker ...
WoJ puts Walkers on the same general power-tier as the Mothers, and Angels.
So, no -- Lea is far below their power.
The only saving grace is that they seem to be limited in how much of that power they can bring to bear within Creation -- it seems to be only a minute fraction of their total power.
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In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation, and the point is that she helped re-direct the Walker back upon Justin, rather than confront the Walker directly.
I presume that if the Starborn loses, the Walkers get to manifest their full power in creation immediately contaminating all universes within the Multiverse, which is why losing in a single universe damns all of creation.
No pressure on Harry then.
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In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation ...
I seriously doubt it.
Remember, Michael rescued a bunch of WC wizards from Outsider attack... including a cadre of Wardens led by the Blackstaff. I expect a Blackstaff-led group of WC wizards would be "about on par" with Lea; but Eb said that they'd all have died if Michael hadn't been there.
It's a couple of levels of A:B:C comparison (so we don't have a 1:1 Lea:Walker comparo) but I think there's no real sign that Lea is capable of taking down a Walker.
... and the point is that she helped re-direct the Walker back upon Justin, rather than confront the Walker directly.
Helping a Starborn, now... that's another story! That's just working with a Mortal, that's everyday faerie biz... Plus, she was fulfilling the "taerie godmother (protection)" contract.
It isn't Lea's fault that her charge was a Starborn, with an outsized ability to hurt Outsiders. (such clauses seem to delight the fae)
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Helping a Starborn, now... that's another story! That's just working with a Mortal, that's everyday faerie biz... Plus, she was fulfilling the "taerie godmother (protection)" contract.
It isn't Lea's fault that her charge was a Starborn, with an outsized ability to hurt Outsiders. (such clauses seem to delight the fae)
No, not her fault, I wonder if she volunteered to be Harry's godmother or did Mab order it as part of the bargain with Margaret to give birth to a star child in the first place?
My theory is the White Council wanted Margaret to give birth to one, but because of her relationship with them and opinion of them, she didn't.. But when she changed her mind to have one, she went to Mab to get protection for the kid, thus the bargain. A bargain which gave the baby protection, but also guaranteed when it was all grown up that Mab would have a star child as a Winter Knight.. I don't think Harry ever really had a choice, he was maneuvered into thinking he had one, but in reality at some point Mab would have informed him of the bargain his mother made.
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No, not her fault, I wonder if she volunteered to be Harry's godmother or did Mab order it as part of the bargain with Margaret to give birth to a star child in the first place?
My theory is the White Council wanted Margaret to give birth to one, but because of her relationship with them and opinion of them, she didn't.. But when she changed her mind to have one, she went to Mab to get protection for the kid, thus the bargain. A bargain which gave the baby protection, but also guaranteed when it was all grown up that Mab would have a star child as a Winter Knight.. I don't think Harry ever really had a choice, he was maneuvered into thinking he had one, but in reality at some point Mab would have informed him of the bargain his mother made.
My own WAG is that the WCouncil was too afraid of the "Starborn as Destroyer" (albeit some individual WCouncil members may have demurred, and taken independent action); but the BCouncil thought that (Starborn/Destroyer, either way) it sounded like exactly their kind of "shortcut to power," so they wanted it.
I think Margaret was onboard at first. I think she backed out of the Raith relationship when she realized how Papa treated his sons (i.e. killing them), but I don't know why she turned away from the larger "BCouncil" plan ... maybe she figured the Whamps had too much influence, and she couldn't have a child under BCouncil auspices that could be free of Raith's "kill all sons" schtick?
I'm pretty sure Mab was ALL about getting herself a Starborn WK, absolutely loved the idea! I suspect she was instrumental in "getting Margaret to see the error of her ways" (with respect to Raith, and the BCouncil) and instructed Lea to put herself in LeFay's path often enough (but not in a substantially adversarial way) that when she was on the run, pregnant, and knowing Raith would launch an Entropy Curse as soon as he could)...
Margaret LeFay absolutely grabbed at the chance to make a "Faerie Godmother" bargain with Lea!
I entertain the notion -- as a WAG within a WAG -- that Mab actually planted the idea of a Starbabe, so that she could harvest herself a SB WK when the child was ripe.
And no, I do not think that kind of long-range planning -- and manipulation of mortals -- is beyond Mab's ability.
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Couple of points. Margaret was at least partially enthralled by Raith per Thomas in Blood Rites.
"God knows," Thomas said. "All I know is that there was some sort of business between them. It developed into something else. Father was trying to snare her permanently, but she wound up being too strong for him to completely enthrall.
She bore part of the responsibility for what was done to Harry."I was so arrogant. I laid too great a burden upon you to bear alone.
In Changes Butcher set's up a Chekhov's gun, the meeting attended by Eb and Papa Raith where Margaret tries to sell her plan.
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Couple of points. Margaret was at least partially enthralled by Raith per Thomas in Blood Rites.
It looks that way, but then again what did Thomas mean by "business?" If he meant enthralled, why didn't he just say it? Or was Jim being vague so he can define it later? The "business" could have been that Margaret had considered giving Raith a star child? To give the Council the finger perhaps?
Here is another thought, supposedly a star child is reasonably rare, though the way they have been turning up in Jim's stories of late, I don't think they are that rare, and maybe dare I say it, all that special... Well, let's leave that for the moment..
What if it isn't the child that is so rare or special, but the woman who can conceive one? Perhaps Margaret was going for the highest bidder? But then she met Malcolm..
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Margaret was only partially enthralled, that's in the quote. Somebody figured out how to make a Starborn, maybe Maggie. For some purpose unexplained. They hold a meeting with the Red Court, the White Court, the White Council and Maggie, maybe representing the Black Council. She shops the idea to the attendees. Eb doesn't like it but he does his job and takes the proposal the the Senior Council, they bite. Somewhere in the mix Maggie gets cold feet. Possibly because Raith has decided she can be the baby machine they need. Maybe he pushed to hard, who knows. She bolts an goes into the Never Never.
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Margaret was only partially enthralled, that's in the quote. Somebody figured out how to make a Starborn, maybe Maggie. For some purpose unexplained. They hold a meeting with the Red Court, the White Court, the White Council and Maggie, maybe representing the Black Council. She shops the idea to the attendees. Eb doesn't like it but he does his job and takes the proposal the the Senior Council, they bite. Somewhere in the mix Maggie gets cold feet. Possibly because Raith has decided she can be the baby machine they need. Maybe he pushed to hard, who knows. She bolts an goes into the Never Never.
But is what Thomas says reliable? When Margaret left Lord Raith for Malcolm, Thomas was a six or seven year old child. Now vamp children maybe different than full vanilla humans, but how much did little Thomas understand what was going on, and how much was he told was going on. Lara might have told him, but can what she said be trusted?
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In the story Thomas tells you what he's learned and how, how much is reliable is a question with no answer within the text. I'll take Thomas at his word until Butcher decides to make him unreliable as a source.
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In the story Thomas tells you what he's learned and how, how much is reliable is a question with no answer within the text. I'll take Thomas at his word until Butcher decides to make him unreliable as a source.
That's why I think it is unreliable. Thomas was a small child, so his understanding of what he remembers is unreliable. Lord Raith isn't going to admit that he wasn't able to enthrall Margaret completely or at all. Lara who might know and would tell Thomas has her own agenda so I wouldn't fully trust what she said either. I do believe at some point this will all be revisited and hopefully Jim will have made up his mind by then as to how he wants that to resolve itself.
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In which case Lea still overpowers any individual Walker in creation,
I don't think so. Uriel can destroy galaxies. reduce that for his foot troops, an angel is at least planetary level. In Battle Ground, it was assumed even Ethniu would not play at Michael's with angels hanging around. And Ethniu is well above Mab, who is well above Lea. Even if Lea can beat the average Outsider, she is likely at a disadvantage against a Walker, and easily overmatched by HWWB or their other elites.
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That's why I think it is unreliable. Thomas was a small child, so his understanding of what he remembers is unreliable. Lord Raith isn't going to admit that he wasn't able to enthrall Margaret completely or at all. Lara who might know and would tell Thomas has her own agenda so I wouldn't fully trust what she said either. I do believe at some point this will all be revisited and hopefully Jim will have made up his mind by then as to how he wants that to resolve itself.
The thing is, people put together details after the fact; little kids don't STAY little. There's family gossip, the "odd silence" on some topics (or some aspects of some topics), the "We Don't Talk About Bruno" (proceeds to talk about Bruno), etc. There's also the stuff learned from outside sources... non-Raith whampires, non-whamp supernaturals, etc. (I know people in RL who have learned things (as adults) about their parents, that they had lived through without noticing "what was really going on").
I presume virtually all the supernaturals include (at least some) learning-about and direct-experience-with their peer-groups. We first meet Irwin in just such an environment.
It was never a secret that Thomas was the son of Margaret LeFay, and I'm quite sure Thomas had met (at least some) fae before he started hanging out with Harry; and they would likely have commented on his mother (much as many of the Fae have commented to Harry). Other Supernaturals, too (such as Goodman Grey).
We don't know who Thomas may have spoken to, but I think it highly counter-intuitive to think Thomas would not have had experiences similar to what we know Harry had.
So -- in addition to his childhood memories -- Thomas will have a lot of other inputs to assemble a broader and more-nuanced view of his mother.
I suspect Thomas using the phrase "...there was some sort of business between them..." is both Watsonian-Thomas acknowledging that he didn't know the gist of the "business," and Doylist-Thomas cueing us that the "business" is an important matter still to be revealed.
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I suspect Thomas using the phrase "...there was some sort of business between them..." is both Watsonian-Thomas acknowledging that he didn't know the gist of the "business," and Doylist-Thomas cueing us that the "business" is an important matter still to be revealed.
I agree with that. One point you didn't mention which I think is important, what Thomas wantsto believe about his mother. The picture we get for the most part until she meets Malcolm and changes, that Margaret wasn't a very nice or good person. Unless Chauncy was lying to Harry, they were getting ready to welcome Margaret to Hell, in short she was damned. So Thomas might wantto believe that his mother was enthralled in some part by Lord Raith, thus she'd appear less evil in his eyes.
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You'll only know if Butcher tells you. Kids never really know their parents. They have this dream that is one part wish fulfillment with a sprinkle of wishful thinking. I suspect he'll mine this to produce some drama, assuming no more cat or dog issues and he takes a breather on romance.
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... One point you didn't mention which I think is important, what Thomas wantsto believe about his mother. The picture we get for the most part until she meets Malcolm and changes, that Margaret wasn't a very nice or good person. Unless Chauncy was lying to Harry, they were getting ready to welcome Margaret to Hell, in short she was damned...
Agreed; Thomas isn't a neutral unbiased observer, here. He wants to think well of his mother.
Chauncy & Goodman Grey both agree she had become someone pretty bad.
But then she changed. Given that Chauncy's testimony was that she recanted her evil ways, it looks like a black eye for Hell. It's not a lie that benefits him or Hell, that I can see; so I suspect he was telling the truth (more or less) as a strategic move, trying to sucker Harry in (I am guessing that Grey had few (or no) interactions with "reformed" Margaret).
Rashid seems to have had a less-negative view of her. Morgan too (in that he promised her he'd protect Harry). Eb flatly says she's broken multiple WC laws;if the WC had held a trial, she'd presumably have been under a death-sentence.
Luccio's commentary is problematic: she was under Peabody's sway, and trying to get closer to Harry, so she may have "softened" what she said, so as not to hurt/offend Harry. Still, Luccio's opinion (like Rashid's & Morgan's) seems rather less harsh than Chauncy or Grey.
The faeries' commentary doesn't (IIRC) speak to Margaret LeFay's moral/ethical strengths or failings -- just that they found her to be relatively impressive (or in Erl's case, annoying (which is impressive in its own right!).
Do we have other relevant testimony/commentary/etc?
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I don't think so, and like any testimony, it is from a certain point of view.
The faeries' commentary doesn't (IIRC) speak to Margaret LeFay's moral/ethical strengths or failings -- just that they found her to be relatively impressive (or in Erl's case, annoying (which is impressive in its own right!).
I don't think what they have to say is relevant or rather should be taken with a grain of salt, simply because they don't make moral judgements.
Luccio's commentary is problematic: she was under Peabody's sway, and trying to get closer to Harry, so she may have "softened" what she said, so as not to hurt/offend Harry. Still, Luccio's opinion (like Rashid's & Morgan's) seems rather less harsh than Chauncy or Grey.
We are talking the "human" element here which complicates things, a more emotional range of feelings coloring their judgement of her verses any that Chauncy or Grey may have of her.
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Chauncy & Goodman Grey both agree she had become someone pretty bad.
But then she changed. Given that Chauncy's testimony was that she recanted her evil ways, it looks like a black eye for Hell. It's not a lie that benefits him or Hell, that I can see; so I suspect he was telling the truth (more or less) as a strategic move, trying to sucker Harry in (I am guessing that Grey had few (or no) interactions with "reformed" Margaret).
I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?
B
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I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?
B
Chauncy did, he said they were getting a place ready for her when things changed, she changed, and they didn't get her after all.
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I guess I missed something. Did Chauncy actually comment on Margaret or just offer additional information? And Grey?
B
Chauncy regarded me without expression or emotion. “Many in the underworld were . . . familiar with her, Harry Blackstone Dresden, though under a different name. Her coming was awaited with great anticipation, but the Dark Prince lost her, in the end.”
“What do you mean? What are you talking about?”
Chauncy’s eyes gleamed with avarice. “Didn’t you know about your mother’s past, Mr. Dresden?
Grey’s eyes narrowed and changed back to mostly human brown again. He was silent for a moment, and then said, “You didn’t choose to be the son of Margaret LeFay. You didn’t choose the legacy she left you with her blood. And she was a piece of work, kid. I knew her.”
Butcher, Jim. Skin Game: A Novel of the Dresden Files (p. 439). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Do we have other relevant testimony/commentary/etc?
You have quite a bit if you choose to run it down. You can eliminate Rashid from your calculations given his age, it may have been that he ran with her in the time before she was what she became. Goodman Grey seems to have known her after that point.
She was able to arrange a dinner whose known diners where a Red Court Nobel, the White Court King, the Blackstaff and herself. She could get them to set down and discuss some type of scheme. Unless this is a throw away this is where Harry as Starborn came in to the conversation.
When Grey comments, consider what he is saying when he makes the comparison between his father and Margaret.
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Thanks, Morris. It's funny...like many of you, I'm sure I've read and listened to the novels multiple times, but I think much gets mushed together over time.
I appreciate you taking the time to add some clarity with the quotes. Thanks!
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I have to point out, though, Chauncy could have been EXPECTING her to damned.... "She's on the way!" - as many have said about HARRY himself - plenty would have been willing to see the warlock chopped.... The Dark Prince couldn't quite set the hook.
...and "piece of work" does not mean damned. Maybe Grey thought she was a Grade A witch. Hated her. Does not damn here either.
Heck, it does not mean she was NOT headed there. But there seems to be almost infinite forgiveness available for the truly penitent - didn't Michael even say if it was sincere, they would take NICODEMUS back?
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I have to point out, though, Chauncy could have been EXPECTING her to damned.... "She's on the way!" - as many have said about HARRY himself - plenty would have been willing to see the warlock chopped.... The Dark Prince couldn't quite set the hook.
...and "piece of work" does not mean damned. Maybe Grey thought she was a Grade A witch. Hated her. Does not damn here either.
Heck, it does not mean she was NOT headed there. But there seems to be almost infinite forgiveness available for the truly penitent - didn't Michael even say if it was sincere, they would take NICODEMUS back?
But Nic isn't going to get forgiven unless he truly repents and changes his life. Even if he does, that doesn't change who he was or what he did before hand. Before she met Malcolm and apparently repented and changed her life around, Margaret was a piece of work and was headed for Hell and damnation. Those who knew her before Malcolm will tell you that. Michael might have faith that even Nic can repent and be forgiven for his sins, i.e. especially now that he has the Grail. However until he does repent and is forgiven, Nic is what he is, and that isn't a very nice person. That part of his life remains what it was, repented or not, forgiven or not.
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But Nic isn't going to get forgiven unless he truly repents and changes his life. Even if he does, that doesn't change who he was or what he did before hand. Before she met Malcolm and apparently repented and changed her life around, Margaret was a piece of work and was headed for Hell and damnation. Those who knew her before Malcolm will tell you that. Michael might have faith that even Nic can repent and be forgiven for his sins, i.e. especially now that he has the Grail. However until he does repent and is forgiven, Nic is what he is, and that isn't a very nice person. That part of his life remains what it was, repented or not, forgiven or not.
Oh, no one EXPECTS Nic to repent and atone. But the path is open should he choose to take it. I am saying Margaret may have been HEADED that way before she changed her ways. But it doesn't say she was definitely damned yet. She might yet have been that kid that hangs out with the wrong sort. the kids with records, felonies, many have been in prison. You expect she is on that path.. but she hasn't done that felony YET. Only misdemeanors. Even the sanctimonious WC has not decreed she be executed. She may have still been dancing the tightrope.
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Oh, no one EXPECTS Nic to repent and atone. But the path is open should he choose to take it. I am saying Margaret may have been HEADED that way before she changed her ways. But it doesn't say she was definitely damned yet. She might yet have been that kid that hangs out with the wrong sort. the kids with records, felonies, many have been in prison. You expect she is on that path.. but she hasn't done that felony YET. Only misdemeanors. Even the sanctimonious WC has not decreed she be executed. She may have still been dancing the tightrope.
From what Luccio said, and even Grey she did more than just hang out with the wrong crowd, she broke several of the Laws. I do believe there was an execution order out on her. Being described as a "piece of work," in this context isn't a title that one earns for misdemeanors.. Chauncy said, "her coming," that sounds like a pretty sure thing. No one expected her to repent or atone either, but upon falling in love with Malcolm, she did. But all the forgiveness, repentance, or atonement in the world can't change what went on before. Her past is her past and those who only knew her then, know her by that past.
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From what Luccio said, and even Grey she did more than just hang out with the wrong crowd, she broke several of the Laws...
I don't think Luccio said that; I think it was Eb himself.
Luccio was far kinder than that, speaking to Harry... OTOH, Luccio at the time was being mentally-influenced by Peabody, to get closer to Harry. Dumping on his mom was probably not her go-to strategy.
... I do believe there was an execution order out on her ...
I don't think there was; but I don't recall any definitive statement (either way) in the books, or in any WoJ.
Specifically, I suspect that (despite Eb's confident statement of Law-breaking) I don't think the larger Warden/WC knew of that, or had held the trial necessary to order an execution (and I WAG it as very-possible that someone deceived Ebenezer into thinking his daughter was a murderer &c (just as he feared she was): it would be a masterful manipulation-tactic to use against the Blackstaff).
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"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had… unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."
"I was told she died in childbirth," I said.
"She did," Ebenezar confirmed. "I don't know why, but for some reason she turned away from her previous associates—including Justin DuMorne. After that, nowhere was safe for her. She ran from her former allies and from the Wardens for perhaps two years. And she ran from me. I had my orders regarding her as well."
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"The Council knew that you were the son of Margaret LeFay. They knew that she was one of the wizards who had turned the Council's own laws against it. She was guilty of violating the First Law, among others, and she had… unsavory associations with various entities of dubious reputation. The Wardens were under orders to arrest her on sight. She'd have been tried and executed in moments when she was brought before the Council."
Um, she broke the First Law, that's a capital offense.. There was a warrant out for her, she would have been tried and execute in moments when she was brought before the Council. Now I guess you can split hairs about meaning, but I think the quote you gave from Blood Rites is pretty straight forward, there was an execution order out for her... If the Wardens caught up with her, no action would have been taken against them if they had killed her in the process, and if she was brought to trial it was a mere formality, she was going to be executed.
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Um, she broke the First Law, that's a capital offense.. There was a warrant out for her, she would have been tried and execute in moments when she was brought before the Council. Now I guess you can split hairs about meaning, but I think the quote you gave from Blood Rites is pretty straight forward, there was an execution order out for her... If the Wardens caught up with her, no action would have been taken against them if they had killed her in the process, and if she was brought to trial it was a mere formality, she was going to be executed.
That was what Eb said.
I note that Captain Luccio didn't mention it (but maybe she had reason to skip over that part of things).
I consider the issue still open for question...
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That was what Eb said.
I note that Captain Luccio didn't mention it (but maybe she had reason to skip over that part of things).
She was also under Peabody influence at the time, she was ordered to get "close" to Harry. Telling your future boyfriend that you were ordered to kill his mother might have put a damper on things. So it is reasonable that she would have left that part out of her story.
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Does everyone really believe that Justin was killed by Harry?
I can’t believe that he would allow a 16 year old wizard in training to best him.
Thoughts ?
I don’t think “Justin” was “Justin”. I suspect “Justin” was really Kemmler.