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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on September 23, 2022, 06:32:26 AM
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Ebenezars journal.
"...seems clear that he had no idea of the islands original purpose. I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate - or atleast a higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favour despite everything we in our ignorance do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once. I think he's a damned fool.
Rashid says that warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of people but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boys got a solid head on his shoulders generally. And of all the wizards I know he's among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle
I trust his judgement.
But then again I trusted Maggie's too."
So The Merlin's a dick but I can understand his fear.
Ebenezar thinks fatw may have given Harry the island but also he thinks he could be another Maggie.
Rashids doing his usual let events unfold.
But the points I want to home in on.
1. Whose the other 2 or 3 wizards eb would trust?
2. Ebenezar specifically says 'mantle'
Confirmation Demon Reach is a MANTLE!
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Ebenezars journal.
"...seems clear that he had no idea of the islands original purpose. I sometimes can't help but think that there is such a thing as fate - or atleast a higher power of some sort attempting to arrange events in our favour despite everything we in our ignorance do to thwart it. The Merlin has demanded that we put the boy under surveillance at once. I think he's a damned fool.
Rashid says that warning him about the island would be pointless. He's a good judge of people but I'm not so sure he's right this time. The boys got a solid head on his shoulders generally. And of all the wizards I know he's among the three or four I'd be willing to see take up that particular mantle
I trust his judgement.
But then again I trusted Maggie's too."
So The Merlin's a dick but I can understand his fear.
Ebenezar thinks fatw may have given Harry the island but also he thinks he could be another Maggie.
Rashids doing his usual let events unfold.
But the points I want to home in on.
1. Whose the other 2 or 3 wizards eb would trust?
2. Ebenezar specifically says 'mantle'
Confirmation Demon Reach is a MANTLE!
Maybe he was using "mantle" in a colloquial sense, but that seems unlikely.
I think it's "Warden" that's a mantle, specifically "The Warden" (of the Island & of the Well beneath).
And I think The Warden is the (only legitimate) leader of all the White Council Wardens.
The Senior Council is gonna lose their collective shit when they realize that Harry Dresden is "legally" -- and magically! -- entitled and empowered to give the Wardens orders; orders that supersede any others.
I think the OG Merlin set things up that way, and generations since have forgotten what The Warden could do, and what all the little Wardens were really about; and it's more than just politics & bureaucracy enforcing that, I think there are Warden-specific oaths & rituals enforcing the structure.
Because really: The Warden needs some staff to be able to patrol & investigate the whole F'ing world, it's too sprawling a job for any single person with a single timeline/lifetime.
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Butcher has never explicitly stated what a Mantle is. So a Mantle is whatever we think it is. Such is the beauty of fiction. And what Eb thinks about it matters not at all. He doesn't choose the holder. And after Peace Talks his judgement is questionable. What matters is doing that silly challenge and hoping that Alfred doesn't throw you in the drunk tank on level 3 for imitating a drunk. Which is a cute way of saying that Alfred is looking for something only he can see.
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In my opinion, Warden of the Island can be considered a mantle. Why? Because with Alfred's cooperation Harry can jail Titians, and a real gain of power derived from the island as long as he is on it, it isn't just a title.
I also think that normal White Court Wardens when Luccio was still able to custom make a sword for each also gain a power of sorts but not enough to be considered a mantle.
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Butcher has never explicitly stated what a Mantle is. So a Mantle is whatever we think it is. Such is the beauty of fiction ...
It's pretty clear, though: a "mantle" is a semi-sentient magical suite of powers, motivations/drives, and restrictions. This may not be exactly right, but it's a reasonable approximation. (n.b. there's also the DF RPG; Jim was involved in that, so the "Mantle" there is probably a good game-rule approximation of the novels' use of "Mantle," too)
... And what Eb thinks about it matters not at all. He doesn't choose the holder ...
Ebenezer, as one of the most-senior WC wizards, is an authority on magic. If he calls such-and-such a thing a "mantle," then it probably is (except for the vanishingly-small chance that a technical expert like Eb would use a technical "term of art" in a sloppy fashion when writing for future generations).
And while he doesn't get to choose a new Warden, the Blackstaff could probably manage -- eventually -- to kill most any Warden that he disapproved-of strongly-enough (I imagine there's a fair bit of gray-zone between the "three or four [Eb would] be willing to see take up that particular mantle" and those he'd see as automatically needing removal-with-prejudice.
So it's not utterly irrelevant who Eb thinks should be the Warden of the well on the island...
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It’s mantle in the colloquial sentence alright, it isn’t capitalised, besides look at how Mab describes it to Lara in Peace Talks
“New colors,” she said, her voice velvety smooth and calm. “The shield used to be blue. What changed?” “He made an alliance with a powerful guardian entity,”
NOT A MANTLE
Harry ‘married’ Demonreach, or basically the equivalent, an exchange of obligations binding unto Harry’s death. Demonreach is a naturally occurring phenomena, a genius loci not a construct like the Mantles. He has been repurposed as a jailer, but that is merely an extension of his insular nature. Note even Mab describes Demonreach as powerful.
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It’s mantle in the colloquial sentence alright, it isn’t capitalised, besides look at how Mab describes it to Lara in Peace Talks
“New colors,” she said, her voice velvety smooth and calm. “The shield used to be blue. What changed?” “He made an alliance with a powerful guardian entity,”
NOT A MANTLE
Harry ‘married’ Demonreach, or basically the equivalent, an exchange of obligations binding unto Harry’s death. Demonreach is a naturally occurring phenomena, a genius loci not a construct like the Mantles. He has been repurposed as a jailer, but that is merely an extension of his insular nature. Note even Mab describes Demonreach as powerful.
I find cap-or-not an unconvincing argument, honestly. I don't think Harry/Jim is consistent here. And there are a *lot* of other words (more common/conventional words than "mantle") Eb could have used in that passage... responsibility, obligation, role, etc.
Eb's book on magic is one of the WC's most foundational texts; clarity & precision in writing comes naturally to him. I don't think he would have written for posterity (Harry, and any putative great-grands) and used such an ambiguous term. It'd be like an actual astrophysicist making the Kessel Run in 12 parsecs (took the fandom decades to retcon that one!!!)
I think binding control of "Alfred" (within the scope of what the spirit is) is part of the role of Warden.
But although the spirit itself isn't a Mantle, I see nothing convincing to me that there isn't a "Wardenmantle," and some reasonably-good arguments that there is a mantle.
I don't think the case is ironclad, but it's relatively convincing.
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At best the argument is tinfoil clad. Mab can only tell the truth, she has to be a reliable narrator in describing the Harry/Demonreach relationship.
People look for Mantles everywhere, but they mistake titles and other sorts of associations and relationships for them.
It’s also common word. Harry’s old fireplace had a mantle (and when he put his gun on it, it became a mantlepiece) his dusters have a mantle (when it fell to bits it became mantle pieces). It’s a word Jim likes and tends to slightly overuse in multiple contexts. He does the same with other words and phrases.
But the thing is Jim has probably noticed us noticing this, and therefore is trolling us with its further use, he could have use “burden” in the Journal but “mantle” was more fun for him. It appears to be working. His inner troll must rubs its hands with glee every time a Q&A brings up a Mantle question allowing him to prolong the agony, with a snarky answer.
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I think mantle here is mantle of leadership - like the captain of a sports team. The other mantles (Knight, Lady, Queen, etc.) are not human-created or powered. Possibly Blackstaff might be a mantle - but the power is in the Staff, which does not seem human created. Demonreach seems human created (assuming Merlin is human, I think he is supposedly a scion of sorts)
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I think mantle here is mantle of leadership - like the captain of a sports team. The other mantles (Knight, Lady, Queen, etc.) are not human-created or powered. Possibly Blackstaff might be a mantle - but the power is in the Staff, which does not seem human created. Demonreach seems human created (assuming Merlin is human, I think he is supposedly a scion of sorts)
It doesn't matter that the island was human created, it was magically created over a powerful ley line. The Warden of that island can draw from that power, he or she has power over it's inhabitants. Remember Mab telling Harry that he now could order Ethniu to fight for him because she was his prisoner now on Demonreach in Battle Ground? It may be limited to him being physically on the island, but maybe not, that's perhaps why the Council kept that post unfilled all these years? It is power that could be easily abused. Also remember Rashid's warnings to Harry about drawing power from that ley line back in Turn Coat? It could be that that is where Kemmler got the power needed to do what he did?
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... It’s also common word. Harry’s old fireplace had a mantle (and when he put his gun on it, it became a mantlepiece) his dusters have a mantle ...
Yes yes, and raptors "mantle" over their prey.
I know.
But these are distinctly other uses of the word. As a part of a fireplace, "mantle" is pretty common, you're right.
However, the use of "mantle" to describe a role, a responsibility, a burden... that is a much less common usage! And it's not merely "ambiguous" for Eb to use it that way, it's actually misleading: that specific "layman" usage is the one from which the magical usage derives.
It's particularly misleading coming from the pen of Ebenezer McCoy (for whom written & spoken ambiguity would only, I think, be intentional).
... But the thing is Jim has probably noticed us noticing this ... His inner troll must rubs its hands with glee every time a Q&A brings up a Mantle question allowing him to prolong the agony, with a snarky answer.
This is undeniable; and honestly this meta-analysis is one I find FAR more compelling than the in-world argument.
I still think the text itself strongly implies that there's a "Warden-Mantle," but I completely see the argument that Jim might have written it that way to intentionally throw a red-herring in the fans' path...
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Um mantle was in far more common usage a couple of hundred years ago certainly in the UK.
Ebeneezer is Scottish and born several centuries ago. Jim is trying to give Ebeneezer dialogue consistent with his origin, including more archaic usage. Could you imagine Eb calling anyone “dude”? It is consistent with Eb’s ‘voice’ and baits a trap for the unwary.
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Given this back and forth can anyone argue that Butcher has defined the term? I think not. 8) And why should he? The more narrowly he defines it the less useful it becomes a story device.
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Given this back and forth can anyone argue that Butcher has defined the term? I think not. 8) And why should he? The more narrowly he defines it the less useful it becomes a story device.
Well, he has if you go by how he has used the term so far in the series, Jim has told us exactly what it means and how he wants to use the term. Mantle, with the exception of how Eb used in reference to the Warden of the Island, is the "Fae power" for lack of a better term that pertains to the Queen vessels, Lady vessels, and Knight vessels of both Courts, when on vessel dies it moves and occupies the nearest suitable vessel. It is physical, it enhances power, adds power, and is more or less controlled by the vessel. The Queens and Ladies seem to have more control over their mantles than the Knights do, but that might be because of lack of a suitable vessel. There is no physical take over when Harry became Warden, however having said that, his power has greatly increased by acquiring the job, so in that way though not exact I think it could indeed be considered a mantle. I think the main difference is the Fae Mantles seem to have a mind of their own and the vessel has to be strong to control it, where as there is no physical take over in the case of the Warden mantle, and so far at any rate Harry has had no problem controlling it, unlike his problems with the Winter Knight mantle.
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I think the main difference is where a particular mantle stands on the power scale, what created it and more specifically if it grants immortality. There are capital M and small m mantles.
Mother, Lady or perhaps even Kringle grant immortality. They have much greater restraints on their holders freedom of action. Warden and Winter Knight are either created by or meant to be held by mortals. Winter Knight is more powerful than Warden(It works everywhere) but it does constrain Harry to obey Winter Law to maintain access.
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I think the main difference is where a particular mantle stands on the power scale, what created it and more specifically if it grants immortality. There are capital M and small m mantles.
Mother, Lady or perhaps even Kringle grant immortality. They have much greater restraints on their holders freedom of action. Warden and Winter Knight are either created by or meant to be held by mortals. Winter Knight is more powerful than Warden(It works everywhere) but it does constrain Harry to obey Winter Law to maintain access.
In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should. Where as Warden, using the tools, the ley line and with Alfred at his disposal, he can put Titans away, something he was unable to do as a mere Winter Knight.
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In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should. Where as Warden, using the tools, the ley line and with Alfred at his disposal, he can put Titans away, something he was unable to do as a mere Winter Knight.
I think it depends on location - the Knight mantle seems to have given Harry much more ice magic. He didn't use it nearly so much before. And that goes everywhere. The Warden mantle is only good a few miles from Demonreach - he had to get the titan to the waterfront to trigger. But IN that radius, it is far more powerful. Alfred massively overwhelmed someone who trashed Mab casually. And there is apparently worse in the lower levels. (worse than Ethniu? who is it? Balor? Surtur?)
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I think it depends on location - the Knight mantle seems to have given Harry much more ice magic. He didn't use it nearly so much before. And that goes everywhere. The Warden mantle is only good a few miles from Demonreach - he had to get the titan to the waterfront to trigger. But IN that radius, it is far more powerful. Alfred massively overwhelmed someone who trashed Mab casually. And there is apparently worse in the lower levels. (worse than Ethniu? who is it? Balor? Surtur?)
I think Harry's ice magic is a wash frankly.. Before he was Winter Knight Harry's specialty was fire magic, he was really good a kaboom, now he as Winter Knight he has incorporated ice magic, but I think it is well with in his wheel house. From that stand point, I don't think Harry is doing more powerful magic than he was before, just now one is cold as opposed to hot. I also seem to remember him, I think it was in White Night putting the freeze on a bit of Lake Michigan, that was long before he was Winter Knight.
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There is a WOJ that Odin traded his immortality to be able to continue to operate in the mortal world, and took on the Kringle Mantle to regain immortality.
I wonder actually if Odin’s immortality went into the Kringle Mantle. It’s the kind of sneaky thing he would do. Trade in his immortality as a huge sacrifice to be rewarded with the Mantle. I think KrIngle must have a partial intellectus, he knows whether everyone has been naughty or nice I.e. he has knowledge of a persons good and bad deeds, at least over the last year. That would be consistent with the lore and the use of intellectus in the Files. For someone in the Security Business that would be nice. He doesn’t need to vet people. If so he would have known immediately about Marcone picking up the coin. That would suggest he is keeping close to Marcone for that reason, and is doing the same now with Lara.
Everyone at the level of immortal is generally prohibited from living in the Mortal World the exceptions being the Queens, Ladies and Kringle (the Mothers power levels are so great they can’t without warping it). You can give it up, live in the NeverNever, or suffer Demonreach.
Now the Erl King is an immortal but the Wild Hunt rides in the mortal world. Did he undertake Vassallage to Mab to permit this? It surprised me in Battle Ground that he was Mab’s Vassal, but there would have to be some reason why he would agree to be so bound.
The other free- roaming immortals are the Naagloshii, and they are tied to a particular geographical area. If they break that is it Demonreach? There are at least half a dozen in there.
My thought is that the Ladies Mantles were imbued with just enough power to render their wearers immortal. The Queen’s with just enough to avoid reality breaking down too badly around them, the Mother’s with enough for full intellectus.
The Angels are immortal but are again subject to restrictions.
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In one sense the mantle of the Warden of the Island makes Harry more powerful than the Winter Mantle. The Winter Mantle so far only seems to make him physically stronger, but is hard to control and as you say he has to follow Winter's rules, or he should ...
It's a two-edged sword, physically.
Essentially it seems to remove normal, "survival-oriented" physical limits -- it gives the WK routine & effortless access to what's sometimes called "hysterical strength" (the "lift a car off your child" &c strength); and dampen's pain & awareness of injuries.
Of course, those are "survival-oriented" -- Harry is wracking his body with injuries faster than his wizardly "healing factor" can keep up (generally, when something drops the Mantle, he's momentarily incpacitated from the pain). He's killing himself.
I suspect that part of Harry's "meditation" &c in Little Things may have been exploring some self-healing and/or other ways to mitigate the WK-Mantle's propensity to simply burn out the Knights. It may have been as simple as enforcing some rest, in which to heal (or maybe that was just a side-benefit).
But on the mystical side of things, it gives him an automatic & instinctive grasp of ice-magic, on par with (and sometimes superior to) the fire-magic he spent years cultivating. Remember in the climactic fight against the Red King, Harry was in hand-to-hand battle (literally -- grabbing and being grabbed, not even the distance of a sword-fight); previously, Harry has been clear this situation is too-close and too swiftly-changing a situation for him to:
- gather his will
- formulate his spell
- release the spell
But with the Winter mantle -- already corp-a-corps with the mighty Red King (who had millenia of combat experience!) -- Harry was able to create a pair of ice-daggers on his fingertips, to stab the RK. It might "seem" like that's just physical fighting, but it's really not (the biophysics of crafting usable weapons is a real issue).
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The island is not a mantle, it’s Harry’s spouse.
His meditation in Little Things isn’t explained but at this point he is orientated towards upping the defences of the Castle in preparation for his daughter living there, installing Bob (who as Bob The Castle takes up Winter Blue colouration, but as Bob the Skull still orange) and having his Winter Vassals stay at the Castle. We are given a clue in the recent interview that Harry is going to have all sorts of liege Lord headaches due to him being the Lord of his neighbourhood. This points to his meditation being a magical exercise to get closer to Winter and the protection it brings. In this case backing Castle Dresden onto Arctis Tor, so he has a safe Winter Bolthole to the Winter Knights quarters there, rather than Leas magical murder garden. If so this may be a truly impressive feat for a mortal wizard, especially over a relatively short stretch of time
Not sure Harry has thought through having Mab as a neighbour.
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The island is not a mantle, it’s Harry’s spouse.
I think even Lara would hesitate at that threesome.
Ebenezar specifically says 'that particular mantle'.
That's in text confirmation. That's enough for me.
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I think Harry's ice magic is a wash frankly.. Before he was Winter Knight Harry's specialty was fire magic, he was really good a kaboom, now he as Winter Knight he has incorporated ice magic, but I think it is well with in his wheel house. From that stand point, I don't think Harry is doing more powerful magic than he was before, just now one is cold as opposed to hot. I also seem to remember him, I think it was in White Night putting the freeze on a bit of Lake Michigan, that was long before he was Winter Knight.
He had some ice magic before - just as he showed earth magic in the Deeps once, IIRC, and someone commented on it tired him out. Now it is effortless. He's better than he used to be - just as Summer gave Fix power. Maybe harry did not increase in danger as much as Fix did - basically the mantles maybe gave each man a rifle, but Harry already had the shotgun of fire, so he is a little better in that he has more choices. Though ice is more a building thing than fire is... ice plus Soulfire? Might be a good shield.
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There is a WOJ that Odin traded his immortality to be able to continue to operate in the mortal world, and took on the Kringle Mantle to regain immortality.
I wonder actually if Odin’s immortality went into the Kringle Mantle. It’s the kind of sneaky thing he would do. Trade in his immortality as a huge sacrifice to be rewarded with the Mantle. I think KrIngle must have a partial intellectus, he knows whether everyone has been naughty or nice I.e. he has knowledge of a persons good and bad deeds, at least over the last year. That would be consistent with the lore and the use of intellectus in the Files. For someone in the Security Business that would be nice. He doesn’t need to vet people. If so he would have known immediately about Marcone picking up the coin. That would suggest he is keeping close to Marcone for that reason, and is doing the same now with Lara.
Or HE is the one being used. He wants to run around Earth? "Then you have to do this job for Me" - it's not Mab's duty to give out gifts. and then be given the intellectus to be able to do the job.
Everyone at the level of immortal is generally prohibited from living in the Mortal World the exceptions being the Queens, Ladies and Kringle (the Mothers power levels are so great they can’t without warping it). You can give it up, live in the NeverNever, or suffer Demonreach.
Immortality might not be the determining limit. It might be higher. Morgan, when Harry tries to explain intellectus, says Harry's being shot example is a bad one, because most things with intellectus are immortal - so he must know a few. We have no reason to think none are on earth. Really, are even the Queens and Kringle truly immortal? Not at Halloween! And don't we have reference to a semi-immortal shapeshifter that signed the Accords? Heck, if Odin's around, what Norse god was a shapeshifter? Loki....
Now the Erl King is an immortal but the Wild Hunt rides in the mortal world. Did he undertake Vassallage to Mab to permit this? It surprised me in Battle Ground that he was Mab’s Vassal, but there would have to be some reason why he would agree to be so bound.
Maybe the Erlking is a mantle - king of the goblins. Teh giblins are her domain, or have sworn to her for some reason.
The other free- roaming immortals are the Naagloshii, and they are tied to a particular geographical area. If they break that is it Demonreach? There are at least half a dozen in there.
Naagloshi are tough, but I don't think they are immortal. Why did it run from Joe if it was? And Morgan showed one some overwhelming power - if it survived, it seems the kind of creature that would seek revenge and get Morgan over the years.
My thought is that the Ladies Mantles were imbued with just enough power to render their wearers immortal.
The Ladies are not immortal. We've seen them killed in Nevernever and on Demonreach.
The Angels are immortal but are again subject to restrictions.
the Makers of rules often do not have them apply to Themselves or Their agents. See- Congress.
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He had some ice magic before - just as he showed earth magic in the Deeps once, IIRC, and someone commented on it tired him out. Now it is effortless. He's better than he used to be - just as Summer gave Fix power. Maybe harry did not increase in danger as much as Fix did - basically the mantles maybe gave each man a rifle, but Harry already had the shotgun of fire, so he is a little better in that he has more choices. Though ice is more a building thing than fire is... ice plus Soulfire? Might be a good shield.
Harry did ice magic before, yes... But iirc before he became Winter Knight his ice was always a product of him performing his old fuego spell. He had water, from which he took the energy to fuel his fire, letting a huge flame go up in the sky, thus turning the water to ice.
As Winter Knight he somehow simply creates ice, or so it seems. There is no exothermic energy released in form of fire, no water surface needed. And also no soulfire.
Maybe he was always able to do that and just because he is the knight now, makes him believe he must be able to create ice, so he can.
Just like he believes to be able to create fire.
Makes me wonder, if a wizard could simply create water or earth, if he strongly believes he can.
Carlos for example is said to have an affinity to water magic. Does that mean he can create water? We never see him do more water magic than his disintegrating shield. But this I think removes water, instead of adding.
Edit: as ice is just frozen water, one could say, that Harry is actually using water magic.
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The island is not a mantle, it’s Harry’s spouse.
No, it is not a partner. Not his equal, it doesn't think.
The island is his castle, Lake Michigan his moat, Alfred his dragon to overwhelm enemies. On his home ground, he is all but invincible. He knows all the island knows if he thinks about it - no one knows their spouse so well.
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Harry did ice magic before, yes... But iirc before he became Winter Knight his ice was always a product of him performing his old fuego spell. He had water, from which he took the energy to fuel his fire, letting a huge flame go up in the sky, thus turning the water to ice.As Winter Knight he somehow simply creates ice, or so it seems. There is no exothermic energy released in form of fire, no water surface needed.
Also the ice below the pursuing fetch. I think all wizards can probably do all sorts of magic, but are not GOOD at many forms. Harry did veils before Molly, but wasn't very GOOD at them, though he got better when he analyzed the practice a bit. Now, maybe he funnels ice from elsewhere - the cold of, say, frozen gas giants - the chill of Jupiter. Maybe he can link to Mouse's ice world - Mouse was an ice demon, right? Mouse cheats by living with a wizard - he channels his power source thru Harry.
I think of it in a gaming sense like each school (fire, ice, earth, mind) is different. Harry was level 14 fire, 2 in ice, 1 in the others. Really nasty at one. But say the Knight mantle confers 10 levels in the right school. Fix is now level 10. But Harry WAS a 2, so now he is a 12. So he is nearly as good with ice as he is fire, so he has options.
You and a buddy have to kill 2 men at 50 yards. You have 2 rifles, and 2 compound bows. You've never fired either. You reach for a rifle. Your buddy never fired a gun, but he's a bowhunter. he reaches for his familiar weapon, the bow. It's not AS good, given equal skills, but with his greater bow skill, he thinks he will be better with it. Harry is the bowhunter, fire is the bow. He was good with it, so he uses it when another skill might work better - but it is a skill he does not have.
And also no soulfire.
No, that's mine. I note fire is usually a destructive force, Harry mentions that is why wizards use it. Ice can be made into things - sculptures, igloos, etc. My idea was Harry might be able to imbue an ice structure with Soulfire to reinforce his shield temporarily. Sort of the ice is Kevlar - the Soulfire is the armor in your plate carrier, because Kevlar doesn't stop that .30-06. So some small critical area is reinforced
Maybe he was always able to do that and just because he is the knight now, makes him believe he must be able to create ice, so he can.
Just like he believes to be able to create fire.
I don't think he CREATES. I think he CHANNELS. Like Binder, calling forth the Gray Men. He calls ectoplasm from Nevernever, he does not create matter. Fire? The Sun's corona ? or even plasma if you are good enough. Cold? South Pole? Mouse's ice world?
Carlos for example is said to have an affinity to water magic. Does that mean he can create water? We never see him do more water magic than his disintegrating shield. But this I think removes water, instead of adding.
maybe that is what made the frictionless dust in the deeps duel? He yanked water out?
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@Ed0517
Maybe he can link to Mouse's ice world - Mouse was an ice demon, right? Mouse cheats by living with a wizard - he channels his power source thru Harry.
Is a foo dog an ice demon? I don't understand? Honestly I don't know much about foo dogs, is this somewhere in the books or side stories?
I can follow you explanation of power levels. Yes, this is how one can imagine it.
But I don't think, he calls ectoplasm. In the books it is often described that he reaches inside, fuels his spells with his emotions and sometimes he explicitly takes from his surroundings.
This is just my head canon, but I think it is the magic itself as a kind of substance which a wizard can use and transform with his will. Not something from the nevernever.
Why can't it be ectoplasm? Because ectoplasm evaporates and there is never any goo left after a wizard does magic, except the times in Peace Talks when he sneezes ectoplasm things.
Also Harry often states, that fire is hard to controll, because once it is there, even magical fire, it behaves like any fire does.
Then there us the difference between magical fire and mundane fire. I think the first mention was in Ghost Story, when he remembers his fight with the Walker and uses his first fuego to kaboom the gas station. Good that he didn't directly use it on the Walker, because in Peace Talks (the fight against the cornerhounds) Ebenezer tells him that Outsiders are somehow immune to magical fire, and that he has to use mundane fire to hurt them.
So I think, a wizard's spell is made of magic transformed into what the wizard wants it to be. Be it force, fire, water, ice...
He yanked water out?
Exactly. Removing water imho is what Carlos' shield does. I think it is even somewhere in the text, I might look it up later, or maybe someone has it handy before I do.
Actually used this way, water magic can be applied very powerful. Have you read the Alex Verus books? There is one wizard, Rachel (she is crazy and doing a lot of morally compromised stuff), ewho does exactly that. She can remove water from any target, essentially turning it to dust. I think this is what Carlos can also do. I think this is what he does, when he fights. Harry sometimes describes it as a green ray (hope I can find example, too), but there is never a description what happens to the targets. Probably because usually Harry has no time watching closeely during a fight.
Ice magic as winter knight: I think Harry reaches for the Winter Mantle to do it other than taking heat from water.
Sadly there is not much explanation in the texts as to how exactly magic works.
I think of it as some sort of catalyst, that some people have inside and some don't. Some have much of it, some only a little bit.
The catalyst takes either from inside the wizard and/or from the surroundings to amplify whats already there, depending on the source the wizard prefers for his spell.
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@Ed0517Is a foo dog an ice demon? I don't understand? Honestly I don't know much about foo dogs, is this somewhere in the books or side stories?
In Changes the Eebs refer to him as a Mountain Ice Demon. We don't know a lot about what this means.
But I don't think, he calls ectoplasm. In the books it is often described that he reaches inside, fuels his spells with his emotions and sometimes he explicitly takes from his surroundings.
This is just my head canon, but I think it is the magic itself as a kind of substance which a wizard can use and transform with his will. Not something from the nevernever.
Why can't it be ectoplasm? Because ectoplasm evaporates and there is never any goo left after a wizard does magic, except the times in Peace Talks when he sneezes ectoplasm things.
But when the gray men get killed, the kinda ooze and it all evaporates, like Spider Man's webbing (Jim did a Spider man book - inspiration?)
Also Harry often states, that fire is hard to controll, because once it is there, even magical fire, it behaves like any fire does.
Then there us the difference between magical fire and mundane fire. I think the first mention was in Ghost Story, when he remembers his fight with the Walker and uses his first fuego to kaboom the gas station. Good that he didn't directly use it on the Walker, because in Peace Talks (the fight against the cornerhounds) Ebenezer tells him that Outsiders are somehow immune to magical fire, and that he has to use mundane fire to hurt them.
Yeah, I was thinking Jim kinda went back on what he said before.... that magical fire is not quite the same.
Exactly. Removing water imho is what Carlos' shield does. I think it is even somewhere in the text, I might look it up later, or maybe someone has it handy before I do.
Has to do more. He disintegrates bullets - the lead will not have so much water. You pour molten lead into forms... which puts it above 325* C, IIRC. can't have water there. He may have some sort of abrasives? Diamond dust?
Actually used this way, water magic can be applied very powerful. Have you read the Alex Verus books? There is one wizard, Rachel (she is crazy and doing a lot of morally compromised stuff), ewho does exactly that. She can remove water from any target, essentially turning it to dust. I think this is what Carlos can also do. I think this is what he does, when he fights. Harry sometimes describes it as a green ray (hope I can find example, too), but there is never a description what happens to the targets. Probably because usually Harry has no time watching closely during a fight.
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A little water, taken precisely, should sludge the blood and might cause a coronary or stroke. Loss of volume is a bad thing. (No Verus)
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There is a WOJ that Odin traded his immortality to be able to continue to operate in the mortal world, and took on the Kringle Mantle to regain immortality.
I wonder actually if Odin’s immortality went into the Kringle Mantle. It’s the kind of sneaky thing he would do. Trade in his immortality as a huge sacrifice to be rewarded with the Mantle. I think KrIngle must have a partial intellectus, he knows whether everyone has been naughty or nice I.e. he has knowledge of a persons good and bad deeds, at least over the last year. That would be consistent with the lore and the use of intellectus in the Files. For someone in the Security Business that would be nice. He doesn’t need to vet people. If so he would have known immediately about Marcone picking up the coin. That would suggest he is keeping close to Marcone for that reason, and is doing the same now with Lara.
Everyone at the level of immortal is generally prohibited from living in the Mortal World the exceptions being the Queens, Ladies and Kringle (the Mothers power levels are so great they can’t without warping it). You can give it up, live in the NeverNever, or suffer Demonreach.
Now the Erl King is an immortal but the Wild Hunt rides in the mortal world. Did he undertake Vassallage to Mab to permit this? It surprised me in Battle Ground that he was Mab’s Vassal, but there would have to be some reason why he would agree to be so bound.
The other free- roaming immortals are the Naagloshii, and they are tied to a particular geographical area. If they break that is it Demonreach? There are at least half a dozen in there.
My thought is that the Ladies Mantles were imbued with just enough power to render their wearers immortal. The Queen’s with just enough to avoid reality breaking down too badly around them, the Mother’s with enough for full intellectus.
The Angels are immortal but are again subject to restrictions.
The key seems to have been be weaker than Mab to stay in the mortal world. Being immortal is just an added bonus of great power. Sort of if u reach a certain level of magic power. Boom u are immortal. Strength of a river is young to his kin yet 1000s old. I think the more magic you have the less mortal u are. Wizards seem tk grow more powerful in magic as they age and they reach 300s. Irvine was young but as strong as harry. He doesn't get sick etc. May is ur really strong u get immortality has a side effect
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Well, he has if you go by how he has used the term so far in the series, Jim has told us exactly what it means and how he wants to use the term. Mantle, with the exception of how Eb used in reference to the Warden of the Island, is the "Fae power" for lack of a better term that pertains to the Queen vessels, Lady vessels, and Knight vessels of both Courts, when on vessel dies it moves and occupies the nearest suitable vessel.
WOJ's seem to indicate the Blackstaff would also choose a new bearer in the event of the previous holder's death - although they also get more of a choice whether to take it up than we've seen with the Lady mantles.
I tend to find the fact that it's OK for the Warden position not to be filled for an extended period suggestive of it not being a real mantle. With the Fae mantles, even when it returns to the nearest Queen on the death of a previous knight, there's strong pressure on her to bestow it on another mortal asap. If the Wardenship is parked with Alfred, he doesn't seem to feel any corresponding hurry to replace Wardens.
On the other hand, holding the Wardenship has changed Harry - the partial intellectus and the changes in his shield and staff colours. There's something to it. Perhaps Merlin (with Alfred's help?) made some sort of construct in imitation of the faerie mantles even though it isn't quite the same thing.
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First for the upstream comments about Harry's fire spell. Whatever it is, it isn't fire per se. Fire is a chemical reaction. What he actually describes is heat. If you want to throw fire you actually throw something that is burning.
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The key seems to have been be weaker than Mab to stay in the mortal world. Being immortal is just an added bonus of great power. Sort of if u reach a certain level of magic power. Boom u are immortal. Strength of a river is young to his kin yet 1000s old. I think the more magic you have the less mortal u are. Wizards seem tk grow more powerful in magic as they age and they reach 300s. Irvine was young but as strong as harry. He doesn't get sick etc. May is ur really strong u get immortality has a side effect
Are we that sure Vadderung is weaker than Mab? He has a lower rank in Winter, yes, but it also seems it is a part time gig.
Irwin is strong because he is only half human. He gets his size and strength from his Bigfoot heritage. We have no reason to think bigfoots immortal. Possibly just long lived. There are trees thousands of years old.
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Bigfoot is middle aged according to himself.
"Figure I'm about middle age"
Which presumably made him approximately the same age as the tale of Beowulf. That made him better than a thousand years old. Minimum.
Page 209 Peace Talks
Found this WOJ recently.
Priscellie: Who was the warden of Demonreach before Harry?
Jim: Lemme think, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
Priscellie: Oh god. laughs
Jim: Yeah, I mean, half of that entire thing was just the white council trying to keep Kemmler from getting back to the island and opening it up. Which is why they had him being hounded by the wardens all through the wild west and so on. It was to stop him from being able to set things up even more. Kemmler is sort of in the Dresden Files universe he's sort of the Dresden Files version of WWI where it was actually the biggest most epic most incredible conflict the world has ever known but we're all used to seeing WWII because they got some of it on film but we didn't get nearly as much of the great war on film but when you actually go and study it and study all the troop numbers and resources involved WWI was really the great war and WWII was kind of a follow-up. A softer echo in many ways.
Priscellie: In terms of how long someone is a warden, I'm sure it varies from case to case but how long does wardenship typically last?
Jim: It depends on how quickly it gets you killed.
Priscellie: Is that the only way out?
Jim: I'd say it's not the only way out. You can definitely walk away from it or be dragged away from it or driven away from it. And then if somebody else comes along and challenges Demonreach then it's their island if your influence isn't there anymore. By the time Harry got there nobody had been there in a good long while because among the people who are in the know on the council it would be suicide to go try and do that. If one of the senior council guys got it all the other senior council guys would be like "yep he's the bad guy he's definitely corrupt and serving evil". And then Dresden walked into it and it was just such a stupid move they all kind of looked at him and went "I think he was he was being dumb? Do you think he was being dumb? Yeah it looks dumb. It looks like he was just being stupid, oh my god, we do need the firepower", you know, like that. The poor council, they find themselves so strapped for resources in so many ways that they keep having to tolerate Harry Dresden.
Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...
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k, I know who it is, and who the guy before that was, but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so...
??? So, is Jim saying he knows who is Warden now, Harry, understood, but now he seems to be talking double speak, and the guy before that was.. Then he goes on to say but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so... ??? So is he implying that there was another Warden in-between Harry and Kemmler? If that is what he is implying, why isn't he or she named and what happened to him or her?
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??? So, is Jim saying he knows who is Warden now, Harry, understood, but now he seems to be talking double speak, and the guy before that was.. Then he goes on to say but the guy before /that/ was Kemmler so... ??? So is he implying that there was another Warden in-between Harry and Kemmler? If that is what he is implying, why isn't he or she named and what happened to him or her?
Not including Harry.
So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.
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Are we that sure Vadderung is weaker than Mab? He has a lower rank in Winter, yes, but it also seems it is a part time gig.
Irwin is strong because he is only half human. He gets his size and strength from his Bigfoot heritage. We have no reason to think bigfoots immortal. Possibly just long lived. There are trees thousands of years old.
I'm not saying they are immortal. Im using them as a example of what increased magical power gets you. Like wizards have a lot of power they live longer than weaker talents. Bigfoots have more as such live longer.
On the Odin thing. Odin passed on woj, and the fact he is a vassal of winter. The fight would be epic and probably a coin toss.
Also in Skin game he says Mab stays to keep Badassiel from listening in
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Yeah Vadderung can tell Mab to get in line.
Kringle owes some loyalty to her, but by his own admission.
'Little games of protocol are how one shows respect, especially to those whom one does not get along famously well. it can be tedious but generally is less trouble than a duel would be."
Skin Game page 372
So Vadderung and Mab could duel if necessary, but the Kringle game keeps the respect level between them. Also Vadderung could fight Ferrovax if necessary so he's in the same league. Vadderung was the only one able to resist Ethniu when she barged into the party as well.
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Not including Harry.
So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.
So the question remains, what happened to the other two? My tin foil hat guess, ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it. Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens. Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders.. :o
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Not including Harry.
So Jim knows who the past 2 Wardens were but isn't telling, but that Kemmler was 3 Wardens ago.
I think he is saying it is Kemmler, unknown warden, Harry. And he is not saying so we likely know who it was. First guess is Justin. Possibly even Eb pre-Blackstaff. Do we know when Kemmler was Warden? He may have been stripped long before his last death.
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So the question remains, what happened to the other two? My tin foil hat guess, ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it. Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens. Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders.. :o
My theory in another thread is that the island corrupts the warden if a weak minded person gets it. Hence harry being prepared to resist the island
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Priscellie: Did his (Kemmler) wardenship end when he was killed after WWII?
Jim: It ended during one of the times they killed him. Kemmler got killed a bunch of times. He was one of those fun villains who just kept getting back up again just kept Napoleoning his way back into being a problem for the white council.
Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...
Mantles don't make you immortal or bring you back. See Aurora, Maeve, Lily, and Ron Reuel. Some of the necromancers can at least temporarily bring you back, like Kumori. And she does not appear to be Cowl's equal.
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Sounds like more Mantle proof to me...
Mantles don't make you immortal or bring you back. See Aurora, Maeve, Lily, and Ron Reuel. Some of the necromancers can at least temporarily bring you back, like Kumori. And she does not appear to be Cowl's equal.
While the Knight mantles don't make the holder immortal, Aurora, Lily and Maeve would have all come back if they hadn't been killed at a special place or time for immortal vulnerability or subjected to near reality shattering power such as Ethniu wielding the Eye. It would just take time to heal. Molly tells Harry she could come back from going through a woodchipper and we see Mab go through several stages of healing in PT and BG.
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First for the upstream comments about Harry's fire spell. Whatever it is, it isn't fire per se. Fire is a chemical reaction. What he actually describes is heat. If you want to throw fire you actually throw something that is burning.
<shrugs>
Harry calls it "fire."
Jim Butcher calls it "fire."
Looks to me like you're "right," technically speaking... but there may be something else going on, given both in-world and WoJ testimony.
Hell, it's magic -- maybe Harry's magic is momentarily making nitrogen flammable???
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So the question remains, what happened to the other two? My tin foil hat guess, ::)or maybe not so tin foil, is the Council felt threatened by the power of the island and the leyline that runs under it. Considering what they went through with Kemmler, whom trying to tap into the power of the leyline and became totally corrupted and dangerous by it, decided to bump off the two newer Wardens. Considering that Harry seemed to be set up to get the boot from the Council, and the Blackstaff possible orders to do him in.. It is my guess that Eb killed off the other two Wardens on Council orders.. :o
Jim has indicated the job is pretty inherently dangerous.
Prior wardens could have died trying to capture various BigBads.
They may have died because a succesfully-captured BigBad had cults of followers and/or Lieutenant-MediumBads whom the Warden didn't adequately prepare for.
There's plenty of *other* Supernatural forces in the world, not just the WC, who might have taken exception to something the Warden did, or was expected to do. From what we have seen I expect the Archive could have taken out a Warden... and likely at least some of the other individual signatories.
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<shrugs>
Harry calls it "fire."
Jim Butcher calls it "fire."
Looks to me like you're "right," technically speaking... but there may be something else going on, given both in-world and WoJ testimony.
Hell, it's magic -- maybe Harry's magic is momentarily making nitrogen flammable???
If it walks like a duck......
It just sounds cool to call it fire magic.
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If it walks like a duck......
Q U A C K !!!
It just sounds cool to call it fire magic.
Plus the conceptual link to the classical "Elements" of Earth/Air/Fire/Water.
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:)
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i am so sick of the word and concept of mantle I wish it had never been used in any of the stories. That way MAB is MAB ODIN is ODIN. The way it is now any tom dick or harry can be MAB or ODIN
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i am so sick of the word and concept of mantle I wish it had never been used in any of the stories. That way MAB is MAB ODIN is ODIN. The way it is now any tom dick or harry can be MAB or ODIN
Odin is himself; Kringle is a mantle. So far as we know, there is no "Odin Mantle."
Mab is Mab... but she has the Winter Queen mantle (or it has her). If you kill her, she will come back (courtesy of the Mantle), unless you kill her at a Conjunction (or using a reality-bending weapon like the Eye of Balor); should you succeed in killing Mab (good luck with that, BTW!) the Winter Queen is still coming back, as her Mantle likely just elevated the Winter Lady to Queen (if not, the WQ mantle went to Mother Winter, who is likely to take ... additional steps (but also put the WQ mantle back into play)).
The Kringle Mantle is subject to the Queen of Winter, but Odin is not. Odin, apparently, doesn't particularly get along well with Mab... but he does fine as Kringle. It's complicated.
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i am so sick of the word and concept of mantle I wish it had never been used in any of the stories. That way MAB is MAB ODIN is ODIN. The way it is now any tom dick or harry can be MAB or ODIN
Jim Butcher is a Mantle his son is in Training to take over.
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I always thought of a mantle like being elected president/ PM or becoming a general or a teacher. The mantle are the duties of the post. Like as a teacher you have to maintain discipline in your class. You have wiggle room of how you would achieve it. As a president/PM you personally don't like high taxes and promise to cut them. Bam the mantle of Pm is yours. You cut taxes and the market and economy crash. You end up increasing the taxes. Over time u end up making choices similar to the old guy. I see mantles working the same way. Molly is currently trying to make it her own but eventually she is going to come across a situation where the duties of the winter lady force her to make decisions similar to Maeve. There is wiggle room to make your own impact in the role but at times the only option is the bad one
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i am so sick of the word and concept of mantle I wish it had never been used in any of the stories. That way MAB is MAB ODIN is ODIN. The way it is now any tom dick or harry can be MAB or ODIN
this to the millionth degree and i bet JB wished he had never opened that can of worms