ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Con on September 18, 2022, 02:24:37 PM
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_qlpecuzc&ab_channel=MVPublicLibrary
so highlights: he's on Cinder Spires Chapter 24, 12 months first chapter
Working on a short story of Cerberus and Mouse for an animal shelter anthology
Nemean Lion has escaped so Cerberus hires Mouse for help
12 months Harry as a leader or liege lord.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17_qlpecuzc&ab_channel=MVPublicLibrary
so highlights: he's on Cinder Spires Chapter 24, 12 months first chapter
Working on a short story of Cerberus and Mouse for an animal shelter anthology
Nemean Lion has escaped so Cerberus hires Mouse for help
12 months Harry as a leader or liege lord.
Wasn't the Nemean Lion killed by Hercules as one of his twelve labors? At least that is according to Google, or is that another myth that isn't quite true as Hades explained to Harry back in Skin Game.
-
Since Cerberus is involved im assuming the Namean Lion escaped from the afterlife ie the Underworld.
Wasn't the Nemean Lion killed by Hercules as one of his twelve labors? At least that is according to Google, or is that another myth that isn't quite true as Hades explained to Harry back in Skin Game.
-
Oh no! Harry is not a descendant of Merlin. There goes my spiffy theory. :(
-
So at least a year before the next Dresden Files novel, which will make it 3 years and counting since September 2020's Battle Ground. How long before the next novel that's planned to push the overarching narrative along?
-
You missed that Etienne The Enchanter was a pal of Merlins, he created Bob’s original Sanctum. Thus Bob was put to work initially for ‘good’ and this shows the Original Merlin was still alive in the 1200’s, much later than thought, or at least was time travelling.
You also missed Harry’s visitation by Malcolm was not Malcolm’s ghost, suggesting Malcolm DIDN’T die by violence. Was it instead some ascension or apotheosis on the part of Malcom to a higher state of being?
-
Oh no! Harry is not a descendant of Merlin. There goes my spiffy theory. :(
In all humor Butcher describes his job as telling very long lies and then asks if you would trust him. Here's the thing about calling your self a liar. Why would I believe anything he says? I'd put my WAG on the back burner and wait for events. If Merlin is Harry by the way, he would be the start of the bloodline not a part of it. He can't descend from himself. :o ;)So at least a year before the next Dresden Files novel, which will make it 3 years and counting since September 2020's Battle Ground. How long before the next novel that's planned to push the overarching narrative along?
He actually tweeted The End in 2019 before deciding to split the book.You missed that Etienne The Enchanter was a pal of Merlins, he created Bob’s original Sanctum. Thus Bob was put to work initially for ‘good’ and this shows the Original Merlin was still alive in the 1200’s, much later than thought, or at least was time travelling.
You also missed Harry’s visitation by Malcolm was not Malcolm’s ghost, suggesting Malcolm DIDN’T die by violence. Was it instead some ascension or apotheosis on the part of Malcom to a higher state of being?
Here goes Butcher rewriting history, again.
-
Wasn't the Nemean Lion killed by Hercules as one of his twelve labors? At least that is according to Google, or is that another myth that isn't quite true as Hades explained to Harry back in Skin Game.
In the interview Jim says it is the spirit of the Lion.
-
In my headcanon Hercules regularly gifted Uncle Hades as the only sane one in the family. Hercules 'wrestling' Cerberus was actually giving him a belly rub.
-
... the Original Merlin was still alive in the 1200’s, much later than thought, or at least was time travelling ...
Given that Merlin constructed demonreach prison as a pentacle in time (in 5 different times, as a single action) I think "Merlin as time traveller" has to be considered a well-established part of canon!
-
Harry is an unreliable Narrator.
But so is Jim.
I think he might have well confused the Merlin/Etienne Bromance but not Malcolm. He might have been knocking around 1200 because that may have been a point when he created Demonreach, probably the last. Everything major would have been in Demonreach by this point, except Ethnui.
Bob may have been created as a temporal “message in a bottle” designed like the good little talking head that he is to give exposition about the Merlin to Harry when certain conditions are met.
If the spirit of the Nemean lion has escaped, could it have taken up residence in Mister? Would anyone including Mister notice the difference? Why else enlist Mouse? Jim has finally got around to commenting on Misters Age (18 in the time-line) perhaps this is a way of extending it? The Nimean Lion’s spirit seeks out the body of the most powerful ‘big’ cat in the mortal realm and that happens to be Harry Dresden’s housecat which rules him (and Mouse) with a will of iron. Mister is used to cohabiting with Supernatural spirits, so it might surprise The Lion and Mister has the upper hand, especially if catnip is involved.
If Cereberus is coming to Chicago then there is a Way reachable to Mouse other than Marcone’s bank, unless of course Cereberus bites through the iron bars of Hades personal vault and waits patiently for the main vault door to open.
-
If the spirit of the Nemean lion has escaped, could it have taken up residence in Mister? Would anyone including Mister notice the difference? Why else enlist Mouse? Jim has finally got around to commenting on Misters Age (18 in the time-line) perhaps this is a way of extending it? The Nimean Lion’s spirit seeks out the body of the most powerful ‘big’ cat in the mortal realm and that happens to be Harry Dresden’s housecat which rules him (and Mouse) with a will of iron. Mister is used to cohabiting with Supernatural spirits, so it might surprise The Lion and Mister has the upper hand, especially if catnip is involved.
If Cereberus is coming to Chicago then there is a Way reachable to Mouse other than Marcone’s bank, unless of course Cereberus bites through the iron bars of Hades personal vault and waits patiently for the main vault door to open.
I like it. Don't think thats whats gonna happen but it would make a good story in its own right. I think Mister being the hero and being unimpressed about it could work though.
Where did Jim comment on Misters age?
Also the Marcone Hades Vault thing.
1. That was part of the trials to access the vault one of the most secure realms of Hades short of Tartarus. The analogues between Demonreach and Tartarus are there.
2. There are presumably other Ways in and out of Hades, that aren't directly tied to the vault. Particularly for a mythic beast like Cerberus.
I think he might have well confused the Merlin/Etienne Bromance but not Malcolm. He might have been knocking around 1200 because that may have been a point when he created Demonreach, probably the last. Everything major would have been in Demonreach by this point, except Ethnui.
I mean Merlin was what Fall of Rome to William the Conqueror from on the outside 500 ad till after 1066? Long even for a Wizards life time but even if its the standard 3 to 400. Capping at around 900 ad.
Etienne could have lived from 900 ad to 1200 ad. Could have been an apprentice or younger colleague of Merlin
-
Cereberus will not come out of Demonreach three words Wet Dog Smell. And it would be truly epic. Cereberus would also have to deal with Alfred, who I suspect would, hug him and pet him and pat him and kiss him and call him George.
I believe Harry has commented on Mister getting old in Peace Talks and Jim did in Little Things.
As regards Demonreach and Tartarus being analogues, Tartarus is an afterlife, not a prison for the here and now and is hardly escape proof, Demonreach is. The analogues would be for a prison for the living which has never been the subject of an escape. Only Mab’s Ice Garden springs to mind.
He worked with Etienne on providing a sanctum which puts it around the 1200’s
-
Cereberus will not come out of Demonreach three words Wet Dog Smell. And it would be truly epic. Cereberus would also have to deal with Alfred, who I suspect would, hug him and pet him and pat him and kiss him and call him George.
I believe Harry has commented on Mister getting old in Peace Talks and Jim did in Little Things.
As regards Demonreach and Tartarus being analogues, Tartarus is an afterlife, not a prison for the here and now and is hardly escape proof, Demonreach is. The analogues would be for a prison for the living which has never been the subject of an escape. Only Mab’s Ice Garden springs to mind.
He worked with Etienne on providing a sanctum which puts it around the 1200’s
Someone needs to do a bit of research on Greek mythology:
In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tártaros) is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias ( c.
Tartarus - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tartarus
Tartarus does double duty as an underworld for mortals and the prison ofthe Greek Titans and other monsters. This is true of most mythological/religious hells. The monsters/demons are sent there and later the wicked souls of humanity are banished there. Mab's little ice garden is her personal prison but it isn't even as good a prison as Demonreach, otherwise it would have a much larger population.
-
In the interview{15:15}, the question was "Was there a clue to who the big bad of the series is in Storm Front?"
Answer " I suppose the sleeper was, there's so many villans, but he's so big he was more of an environment."
Who is the sleeper? is it he who walks beside?
I don't remember anything being mentioned as the sleeper.
-
Someone needs to do a bit of research on Greek mythology:
In Greek mythology, Tartarus (/ˈtɑːrtərəs/; Ancient Greek: Τάρταρος, Tártaros) is the deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans. Tartarus is the place where, according to Plato's Gorgias ( c.
Tartarus - Wikipediahttps://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Tartarus
Tartarus does double duty as an underworld for mortals and the prison ofthe Greek Titans and other monsters. This is true of most mythological/religious hells. The monsters/demons are sent there and later the wicked souls of humanity are banished there. Mab's little ice garden is her personal prison but it isn't even as good a prison as Demonreach, otherwise it would have a much larger population.
And that’s the problem, Demonreach doesn’t do such double duty, it’s purely a prison for the Monsters and Demons, not a “bad place” for humanity. See I did do exactly the same research, but didn’t overlook its dual nature.
-
I think the point was Tartarus was a prison for Titans, Elder Gods, Demons and Monsters. Just like Demonreach is.
Interestingly there's a similar concept in Paranet Papers. Vegas has trapped an Elder God Being thats trapped by another Being who feeds off of sin. Basically any time in history a city has been known as a den of inequity Babylon, Rome etc it feeds and strengthens a bad god whose purpose is to keep an even worst destroyer from escaping.
There's also a section where The Lords of Outer Night became Gods themselves by imprisoning and feeding off of other gods. Thomas tries to erase it from the book unsuccesfully as a Venatore.
Anyway point is imprisoning powerful beings is common recurring motif in myth and in Dresden Files. I assume Cerberus is a Guardian in his own right whose duty it is to well be a Warden/Guard who imprisons and catches escapee's.
-
And that’s the problem, Demonreach doesn’t do such double duty, it’s purely a prison for the Monsters and Demons, not a “bad place” for humanity. See I did do exactly the same research, but didn’t overlook its dual nature.
Being a mortal underworld does not disqualify Tartarus from being a prison for Titans and monsters. That was it's original use. Christian Hell had Lucifer and the fallen angels imprisoned before the first mortals walked the earth. Traditionally, most other pantheons imprisoned their evil deities and monsters in wars fought before the dawn of man. The wicked souls got sent there to suffer afterwards. Why wouldn't those places still be prisons? The only stories we have of escapes(excepting modern horror movies) are by gods and heroes who were living when they entered or who were called to a higher purpose after death.
-
Potentially it does disqualify it, if any hint of collusion could result in hades Vault in Marcone’s Bank from not backing onto the Vault in Hades Realm then having the same space used for a different purpose would do the same thing, especially if there is another candidate which doesn’t have that dual purpose.
There is also the point that both the Gatekeeper and the Winter Lady used the Never Never route to Demonreach. Neither has any known association with Hades or Tartarus, both have associations with Mab and Arctis Tor. Mab will leak information to find out those she cannot trust and wait for them to prove her right, she did this with Nameless, perhaps she did the same with Maeve and the back door to Demonreach, indeed the attack may have been an attempt to verify the information by Maeves allies as much as release Lea. It was shut to her after this, suggesting Mab’s game.
People might want Demonreach to back onto Tartarus, bur there is no evidence for this, but there is circumstantial evidence for Mab’s Ice Garden, by those who have used the route to get there.
-
The Gatekeeper never actually went onto Demonreach during the series. He very specifically never set foot on it cause Alfred held a grudge against him. He went somewhere close by the Island but still on the lake.
There was also the path that Peabody used to get near Demonreach in Turncoat that was an alley or something in Chicago that Mouse and the P.I. Kid staked out.
-
In the interview{15:15}, the question was "Was there a clue to who the big bad of the series is in Storm Front?"
Answer " I suppose the sleeper was, there's so many villans, but he's so big he was more of an environment."
Who is the sleeper? is it he who walks beside?
I don't remember anything being mentioned as the sleeper.
Jim says he's "more of an environment" but I don't think any Outsider is that ubiquitous/pervasive within Creation.
I think Jim was name-dropping a being who hasn't ever had any real "screen time" or focus within the stories.
-
I have not listened to the inteview, but that quote is indeed weird and sounds as if you are right, g33k.
-
Potentially it does disqualify it, if any hint of collusion could result in hades Vault in Marcone’s Bank from not backing onto the Vault in Hades Realm then having the same space used for a different purpose would do the same thing, especially if there is another candidate which doesn’t have that dual purpose.
There is also the point that both the Gatekeeper and the Winter Lady used the Never Never route to Demonreach. Neither has any known association with Hades or Tartarus, both have associations with Mab and Arctis Tor. Mab will leak information to find out those she cannot trust and wait for them to prove her right, she did this with Nameless, perhaps she did the same with Maeve and the back door to Demonreach, indeed the attack may have been an attempt to verify the information by Maeves allies as much as release Lea. It was shut to her after this, suggesting Mab’s game.
People might want Demonreach to back onto Tartarus, bur there is no evidence for this, but there is circumstantial evidence for Mab’s Ice Garden, by those who have used the route to get there.
So what hordes of world threating monsters and demons are imprisoned in Mab's garden? The only actual time it appears in the books, it's being used to hold Lea to cure her. We know that she punishes people there but it's mostly her vassals that displease her(most recently Nameless, Laplander and Harry in The Law). I don't think anything she has would be more than a Nagloshi. Demonreach holds fallen Gods. It's Never Never analog is someplace with equivalent or greater prisoners in equa numbers. That doesn't have to be Tartarus but it should be in that league and Mab's place just isn't.
And once again this theory hangs on that direct Way from Arctic Tor that's never been even inferred by the books. Yes, Peabody met someone in Chicago, a known nexus of Ways, but where is it stated that it was Maeve and that they came from Arctis Tor? If an already Nemfected Maeve had known a Way to the island, she could have loosed the sleepers before Harry ever became Warden or Winter Knight. Rashiid says he knows a Way but we have no way to know where he started from. A spot that approaches the Outer Gates would seem to be a better choice.
-
And once again I point to circumstantial evidence over no evidence.
The point is ‘PRISON’ and ‘prison’ on the logic being put forward the vault in the bank has to have riches equivalent to that of Hades VAULT, it clearly doesn’t, similar function but different degree are enough to forge the link. Mab’s Ice Garden merely needs to serve the same function as Demonreach it doesn’t have to function to the same degree.
Indeed given the links between Mab and Merlin shown in Peace Talks it may likely have been designed that way, a secure back door to the NeverNever guarded by Mab. Again there are no known links to Merlin and Hades, but there are between the Merlin and Mab.
-
The island is not the prison. The prison is under the island.
Mab made a low, disgusted sound and turned to face me. “I have heeded your summons; yet I would not enter this domain unless specifically bidden. Have I your permission to do so?” “Yes,” I said. “Yes, you do.” Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 501). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Doesn't seem like someone who has the keys to the kingdom.
-
The congruent spot in reality is supposedly the lesser of the sites though. Marcone's vault is a starter set to Hades'. The only place comparably greater than Demonreach that Mab is associated with is the Outer Gates themselves.
There is no circumstantial evidence of a direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach. We don't know who was with Peabody on Demonreach but it most likely wasn't a Nemfected Maeve. Otherwise what was the point of flying onto the island when she could have just taken her entourage and the ritual materials directly there. Or sending in an inside man to be the Warden before Harry assumes the post. Or going and blowing the place during the time betweenTurn Coat and Cold Days.
-
The island is not the prison. The prison is under the island.Doesn't seem like someone who has the keys to the kingdom.
I always wondered about the etiquette in the supernatural world. How would you tell someone like Mab "Yes, you have my permission to enter my domain THIS TIME" without being rude? Or is it assumed that a permission is not absolute, but only for the moment, unless otherwise specified? Because that scene always worried me a little.
-
The congruent spot in reality is supposedly the lesser of the sites though. Marcone's vault is a starter set to Hades'. The only place comparably greater than Demonreach that Mab is associated with is the Outer Gates themselves.
There is no circumstantial evidence of a direct Way from Arctis Tor to Demonreach. We don't know who was with Peabody on Demonreach but it most likely wasn't a Nemfected Maeve. Otherwise what was the point of flying onto the island when she could have just taken her entourage and the ritual materials directly there. Or sending in an inside man to be the Warden before Harry assumes the post. Or going and blowing the place during the time betweenTurn Coat and Cold Days.
It has been confirmed as Maeve, she placed the Ice Spiders on the way to Edinburgh and then brought them to the island with her and Peabody.
Using it once confirmed Mab’s distrust and that door was thereafter slammed shut in Maeves face, exactly what she did with Nameless. Maeve had to mislead her companions to get them to the island, if they were enjoined by Winter Law NOT to use that particular way she had to get creative, or if doing so would alert Mab.
Mab guards the back door, she doesn’t use it (1) because during Cold Days she and Harry are at loggerheads and she knows Harry on the island has the power to win any debate, (2) it’s telling Harry something he doesn’t know, for nothing, not Mab’s thing, he has to earn knowledge in her book.
Arguing that the prison is separate to the island defeats the starting point that it backs onto Tartarus, on that basis the island would instead back onto an island in the NeverNever like Avalon. The entire island is Demonreach and the prison is part of it - no distinction has been made in the text, nor in any WOJ.
-
Where was it confirmed as Maeve? And where does it say they came from Arctis Tor? It's definitely not in the books and I've seen no WoJ on the matter.
Why would Nemesis(Maeve) waste it's supposedly one free shot at the Way to Demonreach on a minor side scheme when it could do a full jailbreak? Just bring an allied warlock to Demonreach before TC. Have him/her become Warden and let school out while Mab has no active Knight and no Lady to help her.
-
I always wondered about the etiquette in the supernatural world. How would you tell someone like Mab "Yes, you have my permission to enter my domain THIS TIME" without being rude? Or is it assumed that a permission is not absolute, but only for the moment, unless otherwise specified? Because that scene always worried me a little.
Butcher has been remarkably consistent on this point. You invoke a guest right. That means you knock on the door before you enter or come in with guns blazing.It has been confirmed as Maeve, she placed the Ice Spiders on the way to Edinburgh and then brought them to the island with her and Peabody.
Using it once confirmed Mab’s distrust and that door was thereafter slammed shut in Maeves face, exactly what she did with Nameless. Maeve had to mislead her companions to get them to the island, if they were enjoined by Winter Law NOT to use that particular way she had to get creative, or if doing so would alert Mab.
Mab guards the back door, she doesn’t use it (1) because during Cold Days she and Harry are at loggerheads and she knows Harry on the island has the power to win any debate, (2) it’s telling Harry something he doesn’t know, for nothing, not Mab’s thing, he has to earn knowledge in her book.
Arguing that the prison is separate to the island defeats the starting point that it backs onto Tartarus, on that basis the island would instead back onto an island in the NeverNever like Avalon. The entire island is Demonreach and the prison is part of it - no distinction has been made in the text, nor in any WOJ.
By the time of Turn Coat Maeve has been outed as nemfected. Assuming that she ever had keys that would pretty much have ended that. Unless Mab is an idiot. In any case Maeve is as good as a candidate as anyone else for Peabody's partner. But it doesn't follow that Maeve came from Arctis Tor.
Butcher himself makes the distinction that the prison is separate from the island. You enter the Well through the door at the bottom of the stairs.
-
Who is the sleeper? is it he who walks beside?
I don't remember anything being mentioned as the sleeper.
Basically Cthulhu but he didn't want to spell it out. Maybe copyright reasons. The cult Molly and Carlos wiped out in Cold Case were Sleeper devotees who'd hijacked human bodies, trying to wake him up via fae blood sacrifices.
I don't think it was alluded to in Storm Front specifically. Jim's answer seemed more puzzled over whether there even was a singular overall big bad to the series, and settled on the sleeper as the biggest.
-
There is supposed to be a Kaiju book, perhaps something huge is sleeping under the City.
-
The Well of the Prison probably exists in a slightly different Space Time given the shifting nature of the tunnels, their apparent infinite size and the manner of its construction, as such it likely isn’t part of the “Mortal World” of that universe and wouldn’t connect to the NeverNever, which would be a great security feature. Of course this will only be the case if Jim finds it convenient. It’s like The Castle, it’s as big inside as it needs to be to fit a particular story. Jim can and does play fast and loose with his rules even when they have been committed to paper, doubly so for WOJ.
-
Butcher has been remarkably consistent on this point. You invoke a guest right. That means you knock on the door before you enter or come in with guns blazing.By the time of Turn Coat Maeve has been outed as nemfected. Assuming that she ever had keys that would pretty much have ended that. Unless Mab is an idiot. In any case Maeve is as good as a candidate as anyone else for Peabody's partner. But it doesn't follow that Maeve came from Arctis Tor.
Butcher himself makes the distinction that the prison is separate from the island. You enter the Well through the door at the bottom of the stairs.
I know, but you have guest rights only that time. It is not an extended invitation for ever. My doubt was about how you specify that? That the host is accepting the guest for once, that next time the guest wants to enter, it would be necessary to ask permission again.
-
I mean that seems kinda normal, do you assume that because someone let you into their house once, you can therefore come in whenever you like?
Seems to me that would be far more rude.
-
I'd have to go back and look for the specific instances, but I'm pretty sure there is (at least) the very-strong implication that (at least some entities) can get a "permanent" invitation when the person inviting them had meant something much more restrictive.
Not to mention how, once in, a great many of these beings can easily trick or force somebody to modify the temporary one into something permanent... And while that's not "fair" it's still valid.
-
I mean that seems kinda normal, do you assume that because someone let you into their house once, you can therefore come in whenever you like?
Seems to me that would be far more rude.
Human etiquette is not necessarily the same than supernatural one.
g33k, thanks for checking.
-
...
g33k, thanks for checking.
Honestly, I don't think I effectively can...
I only have the paper hardcopy books, I think I'd need searchable e-books to find all the instances of supernaturals & thresholds & the various expositions & tidbits from Harry & Bob (and with the shorts, Molly & Thomas (and maybe others?)) ...
-
I do. But you don't need it. It's used in The Law. Mab gives old "what his name" a place to live in Arctis Tor before she sends him to work for Marcone. He is apparently a demigod.
-
Honestly, I don't think I effectively can...
I only have the paper hardcopy books, I think I'd need searchable e-books to find all the instances of supernaturals & thresholds & the various expositions & tidbits from Harry & Bob (and with the shorts, Molly & Thomas (and maybe others?)) ...
I mean I do have all the e-books and don't think I effectively can.
-
Honestly, I don't think I effectively can...
I only have the paper hardcopy books, I think I'd need searchable e-books to find all the instances of supernaturals & thresholds & the various expositions & tidbits from Harry & Bob (and with the shorts, Molly & Thomas (and maybe others?)) ...
No, no, I mean thanks for what you already did to answer me.
-
I do. But you don't need it. It's used in The Law. Mab gives old "what his name" a place to live in Arctis Tor before she sends him to work for Marcone. He is apparently a demigod.
Not guest right, he swore fealty to Mab and therefore Winter Law, a different bundle of rights and obligations, Nameless was excluded from Arctis Tor following the attack in Proven Guilty, suggesting he was the inside man, but is still bound by his fealty to Mab and Winter Law, no access, all obligation. Doubtless he chafes under Winter Law but even as a Demi-god he isn’t anywhere near Mab’s weight class. If only there was some ritual which would allow him to boost his power lever and break free of Mab, or better yet reverse the pecking order.
It strikes me that Harry with his Knights of the Bean may have inadvertently recruited a bunch of mortals to Winter and to whom Winter Law may apply. That could be a future problem for Harry and fit in with the Liege Lord comment in the interview. A knight could traditionally, create a new Knight, and being part of his banner could reinforce this.
-
I always wondered about the etiquette in the supernatural world. How would you tell someone like Mab "Yes, you have my permission to enter my domain THIS TIME" without being rude? Or is it assumed that a permission is not absolute, but only for the moment, unless otherwise specified? Because that scene always worried me a little.
I'd assume permission to enter is a case by case thing. If i pass security at LaGuardia, I can walk the concourse. If I pass OUTSIDE security, i must ask (be cleared) a second time. Harry can not waltz around the Erlking's domain because he once entered with Susan.
-
If Cereberus is coming to Chicago then there is a Way reachable to Mouse other than Marcone’s bank, unless of course Cereberus bites through the iron bars of Hades personal vault and waits patiently for the main vault door to open.
I'd imagine there are multiple Ways from Hades. The Skin game crew may have taken a direct route, and maybe Cerberus takes a connecting one. the connecting one might be avoided by many for Nasty Things between the gates, but Cerberus might pass unmolested, either due to his power, or the other creature's fear of whose dog it is.
-
If an already Nemfected Maeve had known a Way to the island, she could have loosed the sleepers before Harry ever became Warden or Winter Knight.
Maybe not. Maybe when there is no Warden, Alfred gets to be ACTING Warden. If the Warden must approve squashing certain invaders, Alfred cannot do it without permission. If there is no Warden, he grants HIMSELF permission, and stops Maeve.
-
Maybe not. Maybe when there is no Warden, Alfred gets to be ACTING Warden. If the Warden must approve squashing certain invaders, Alfred cannot do it without permission. If there is no Warden, he grants HIMSELF permission, and stops Maeve.
However Alfred's powers are very limited if there is no Warden. When there was no Warden he could send out vibs so that humans were uncomfortable on the island and didn't stay, he could conceal the fact that the prison was there, but how much he could prevent an assault without a Warden remains unclear. Remember he seemed relieved when Harry took up the mantle and that most of that year before Skin Game Harry's time was spent turning on island defenses that only the Warden could turn on. Justine/He Who Walks Beside needed Harry to get past those defenses.
-
Maybe not. Maybe when there is no Warden, Alfred gets to be ACTING Warden. If the Warden must approve squashing certain invaders, Alfred cannot do it without permission. If there is no Warden, he grants HIMSELF permission, and stops Maeve.
Alfred has some power, and some discretion in using it.
The Warden can unlock/activate/whatever far, far more.
-
Maybe not. Maybe when there is no Warden, Alfred gets to be ACTING Warden. If the Warden must approve squashing certain invaders, Alfred cannot do it without permission. If there is no Warden, he grants HIMSELF permission, and stops Maeve.
It would depend upon the protocols given to Alfred by the last Warden. If it was to allow the Winter Queens onto the island but not into the prison, this would make sense pre nemfected Maeve, given the The OG Merlins relationship with Mab. Someone entering without a Queen would end up a smear, unless they arrived in sufficient force to overwhelm Alfred on his current protocols. This would explain the intent to infect a Winter Queen, otherwise the elaborate ruses employed by Maeve to get enough Fae to stalemate Alfred had to be employed. Alfred cannot give himself permission, but can act within his standing orders, and is subject to those limitations . Mab trod carefully and arrived by boat simply because she could not be sure Harry hadn’t changed the protocols given his antipathy to her.
-
Alfred wasn't stalemated in Cold Days, Mab tells you as much. The whole bunch could have easily found themselves in either a cell or a grave.
-
Alfred wasn't stalemated in Cold Days, Mab tells you as much. The whole bunch could have easily found themselves in either a cell or a grave.
Ah, but as of Turn Coat the Island had a Warden again, Harry didn't know that until he woke up on the Island at the end of Ghost Story.. And Alfred didn't make much of a move until the end of Cold Days, when Harry warned Mab that on hisorder, Alfred would put her in the slammer. Until Harry took full control over his Wardenship, the Island was vulnerable, and Maeve knew that, that's why she chose that moment to make her move.
-
Alfred needs orders to go into higher than minimum security. Harry states in SK that he could have shut down the CD attack by himself if he had had the knowledge he gained from his extended stay afterwards.
-
Alfred needs orders to go into higher than minimum security. Harry states in SK that he could have shut down the CD attack by himself if he had had the knowledge he gained from his extended stay afterwards.
Exactly, that is why the Island was vulnerable to attack from Maeve and the Outsiders.
-
I'll let the text speak for itself.
Mab nodded her head slightly, and descended to the ground. From me, she turned to Demonreach. “I thank you for your patience and your assistance in this matter. You could have reacted differently but chose not to. I am aware of the decision. It will not be forgotten.” Demonreach bowed its head, barely, a gesture of acknowledgment, not cooperation or compliance. Once she had seen that, something seemed to ease out of Mab. It was hard to say what gave me that impression, yet I had the same sense of relief I would have felt upon seeing someone remove his hand from the grip of a firearm.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (pp. 501-502). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
-
However Alfred's powers are very limited if there is no Warden. When there was no Warden he could send out vibs so that humans were uncomfortable on the island and didn't stay, he could conceal the fact that the prison was there, but how much he could prevent an assault without a Warden remains unclear. Remember he seemed relieved when Harry took up the mantle and that most of that year before Skin Game Harry's time was spent turning on island defenses that only the Warden could turn on. Justine/He Who Walks Beside needed Harry to get past those defenses.
I think perhaps the "evil vibes" defense were enough. They left, didn't they? You do not need to shoot a housefly with a shotgun, even if you have one handy.
Alfred likes a purpose. Plus... maybe he feels good about adding inmates. Under Harry he got to add Ethniu, and at least temporarily Thomas. Maybe he can't jail people without orders, and he is reluctant to blow them away.
Plus, didn't we hear about a failsafe? I have to assume Merlin puts one in. I would.
-
I think perhaps the "evil vibes" defense were enough. They left, didn't they? You do not need to shoot a housefly with a shotgun, even if you have one handy.
Alfred likes a purpose. Plus... maybe he feels good about adding inmates. Under Harry he got to add Ethniu, and at least temporarily Thomas. Maybe he can't jail people without orders, and he is reluctant to blow them away.
Plus, didn't we hear about a failsafe? I have to assume Merlin puts one in. I would.
But even failsafes have to be controlled, that requires judgement. It is like the bounty hunter robot in The Mandalorian, when things got hairy it put itself in self destruct mode, and Din had to repeatedly talk it out of it, because there was another solution. Eventually it did self destruct to save Din and Grogu and company, but under their guidance, because there was no other way.
-
I'll let the text speak for itself.
Perhaps, but I will contrast that with what Mab did at the beginning of Skin Game, when she approached the Island, she did it by boat and asked permission before she stepped foot on it. Why? because Harry was in charge now, the defenses were now back in place.
-
I think perhaps the "evil vibes" defense were enough. They left, didn't they? You do not need to shoot a housefly with a shotgun, even if you have one handy.
Alfred likes a purpose. Plus... maybe he feels good about adding inmates. Under Harry he got to add Ethniu, and at least temporarily Thomas. Maybe he can't jail people without orders, and he is reluctant to blow them away.
Plus, didn't we hear about a failsafe? I have to assume Merlin puts one in. I would.
Alfred is a completist, and Harry got him the Last Titan, now if he could just get that last pesky Naagloshii….
Alfred was stalemated in Cold Days because of the limitation he was acting under, he couldn’t bring his full power to bear.
Mab I think survived because of her tie to the Warden. Without the Warden also having the Winter Knight Mantle (which he had to voluntarily assume) Mab would likely be having to reconstitute herself, she presented as a ally of the Warden because of it. That gave Alfred more leeway than with an hostile or neutral. Even so, Mab was not sure how far she could go, and Harry could revoke that status at any time.
-
It would depend upon the protocols given to Alfred by the last Warden...
I find very little to suggest the spirit retains any per-warden protocols past the tenure of any given Warden.
I suspect each successive Warden finds the island's "protocols" much as originally established by OG Merlin.
OTOH, there also isn't much to suggest my own "revert to Merlin's settings" belief.
The texts (and WoJ, afaik) don't really address this, so far.
-
Alfred is a completist, and Harry got him the Last Titan, now if he could just get that last pesky Naagloshii….
I have a laugh imagining Alfred catching Pokemon around the island ;D
-
Alfred was stalemated in Cold Days because of the limitation he was acting under, he couldn’t bring his full power to bear.
Which is why the island needs a Warden, and why Alfred was relieved when Harry became Warden. I'm not sure one can assign emotions to Alfred, but he is aware enough to know the island, i.e. the prison when it has no Warden is more vulnerable under his limited protection than when it does have a Warden.
-
I think perhaps the "evil vibes" defense were enough. They left, didn't they? You do not need to shoot a housefly with a shotgun, even if you have one handy.
Alfred likes a purpose. Plus... maybe he feels good about adding inmates. Under Harry he got to add Ethniu, and at least temporarily Thomas. Maybe he can't jail people without orders, and he is reluctant to blow them away.
Plus, didn't we hear about a failsafe? I have to assume Merlin puts one in. I would.
There is a fail safe. It destroys the prison and the Great Lakes region. Butcher is still channeling Aliens. "It's the only way to be sure."
Now what Butcher actually implies is that had the fail safe been triggered everybody on that hill would have been cooked since it was designed to kill gods.
Don't look at this too closely because there are logical contradictions.
-
There is a fail safe. It destroys the prison and the Great Lakes region. Butcher is still channeling Aliens. "It's the only way to be sure."
Now what Butcher actually implies is that had the fail safe been triggered everybody on that hill would have been cooked since it was designed to kill gods.
Don't look at this too closely because there are logical contradictions.
Yeah, but that fail safe sucks because Alfred cannot judge between a truly dire situation, where such a drastic solution is warranted and one that is merely dangerous, bad, but solvable. More to the point, if known about like it and the prison were by the likes of Maeve and Outsiders no tools beyond the fail safe to combat it.
-
But even failsafes have to be controlled, that requires judgement. It is like the bounty hunter robot in The Mandalorian, when things got hairy it put itself in self destruct mode, and Din had to repeatedly talk it out of it, because there was another solution. Eventually it did self destruct to save Din and Grogu and company, but under their guidance, because there was no other way.
No, the idea of the fail safe is it is not controlled. It's the "breach max security, don't provide the password in 10 seconds, the nuke goes off and "sanitizes" the area". The bad guys don't go free because they got vaporized. But so do good guys and unknowing neutrals nearby, so it is not the most desired reply
-
No, the idea of the fail safe is it is not controlled. It's the "breach max security, don't provide the password in 10 seconds, the nuke goes off and "sanitizes" the area". The bad guys don't go free because they got vaporized. But so do good guys and unknowing neutrals nearby, so it is not the most desired reply
I'm pretty sure most of the prisoners would only be injured, not killed. Physical bodies would be destroyed.
It would only buy a little time for the mortal world... years, maybe? Even decades? Barely enough time to get a new cadre of "senior" wizards up from the mid-tiers...
-
I'm pretty sure most of the prisoners would only be injured, not killed. Physical bodies would be destroyed.
It would only buy a little time for the mortal world... years, maybe? Even decades? Barely enough time to get a new cadre of "senior" wizards up from the mid-tiers...
It depends on when the failsafe goes off.
The failsafe was beyond a nuclear level blast, probably more than Tunguska or Krakatoa. Anything mortal or on par with a Nagloshii would be capital "D" dead. But the scheme was for Halloween, a time when even the immortals can be killed. I believe that everything that is tied to one physical body would have perished but that still leaves a number of beings on the Winter Queen level or above that would regenerate over time like Sauron or find a new host body like the Winter Mantles.
Maybe some of those things don't hop directly on the Outsider train but enough do to overwhelm the remaining Accorded Nations(who are definitely going to splinter) and that's The End. It's just that it might not all happen immediately. The Mortal world won't be finished recovering from the event before the first Cthulu level threats start popping upand the burst of energy over those ley lines would have stirred up every dark power hidden in the Western Hemisphere to kick that off. The apocalypse might take a century or two to run it's course but it would be too late to stop it.