ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: flockinpar on September 05, 2022, 07:07:05 PM
-
Greetings fine people!
Doing a reread of SG and just hit the standoff outside the Carpenter house. While Nicodemus is tempting Murph he lays down his coin and the noose, which I assume leaves him a vanilla mortal?
Curious why he wouldn't age and decompose like the older half-reds in Changes. Maybe the coins press pause on the aging process and the vamp power kept the body young and functioning? Maybe Nic has some additional "mortal plus" power I've overlooked or was this just one of those things to move the story along?
-
Cassius doesn't age out quickly after laying down the coin in Blood Rites. He doesn't die until Mouse kills him in Small Favor. It takes time.
-
Cassius doesn't age out quickly after laying down the coin in Blood Rites. He doesn't die until Mouse kills him in Small Favor. It takes time.
It didn't happen quickly, when he gave up the coin he looked about 40 according to Harry by the time Mouse killed him in Dead Beat he looked closer to 80 so while it wasn't in seconds or minutes, or even hours, in a year his age had doubled to closer his real age.
-
Ahhh forgot about snakeboy and his aging changes after he lost his coin
TY!
-
Ahhh forgot about snakeboy and his aging changes after he lost his coin
TY!
And if Nic had given up his coin, he too would begin to age, and since he may be a thousand, maybe two thousand years old he might have a small window in which to redeem himself before he dies of old age and turns to dust.
-
Well nic is smarter than most denarians he has a back up object, the noose, other than his coin. He might have similar object or spell device in a third location.
-
Well nic is smarter than most denarians he has a back up object, the noose, other than his coin. He might have similar object or spell device in a third location.
I doubt it, Nic's back up plan was he knew exactly how Murphy would react. She told Harry how she felt earlier and Andruiel heard it all. So he bluffed her into breaking a Holy Sword, if she had accepted his surrender of noose and coin, he'd be in the same boat as Cassius.
-
I doubt it, Nic's back up plan was he knew exactly how Murphy would react. She told Harry how she felt earlier and Andruiel heard it all. So he bluffed her into breaking a Holy Sword, if she had accepted his surrender of noose and coin, he'd be in the same boat as Cassius.
I think "Murphy loses it, and Nic breaks the Sword" was Nic's primary plan. Indeed, with Michael (apparently/supposedly) out of operation, Harry going to Murph was the odds-on favorite, and Murph being manipulated that way might have been one of Nic's main objectives (even the topmost one) in that ENTIRE project of his!
I think Nic's backup -- in the unlikely event she didn't lose it -- was that he knows the Coin-Summoning ritual (the one Lasciel's Shadow offered to teach Harry), so he could call it back at his leisure.
-
I think "Murphy loses it, and Nic breaks the Sword" was Nic's primary plan. Indeed, with Michael (apparently/supposedly) out of operation, Harry going to Murph was the odds-on favorite, and Murph being manipulated that way might have been one of Nic's main objectives (even the topmost one) in that ENTIRE project of his!
I think he'd entirely have preferred for Harry to not even think of demanding a +1 to watch his back, the easier to kill him. But what he came up with was a good way to turn an apparent difficulty into an opportunity. Not unlike the strategy Harry taught Molly, of making your problems collide with each other in a way that lets you come out on top.
I don't think either capping Harry or breaking a sword were his primary objective, though. The complete set of the weapons was. The other two are useful, but not worth sacrificing Deirdre over.
-
I think Nic's backup -- in the unlikely event she didn't lose it -- was that he knows the Coin-Summoning ritual (the one Lasciel's Shadow offered to teach Harry), so he could call it back at his leisure.
I think that may not work if someone has taken up the coin - they are using its power. Harry's was just buried. First case, they HAVE the coin in use. Why do they want someone who renounced it?
-
I think "Murphy loses it, and Nic breaks the Sword" was Nic's primary plan. Indeed, with Michael (apparently/supposedly) out of operation, Harry going to Murph was the odds-on favorite, and Murph being manipulated that way might have been one of Nic's main objectives (even the topmost one) in that ENTIRE project of his!
I think Nic's backup -- in the unlikely event she didn't lose it -- was that he knows the Coin-Summoning ritual (the one Lasciel's Shadow offered to teach Harry), so he could call it back at his leisure.
Except I don't think once a coin is voluntarily given up for whatever reason it can be called back. If it could Cassius would have called his back in an instant.
-
Except I don't think once a coin is voluntarily given up for whatever reason it can be called back. If it could Cassius would have called his back in an instant.
Question - suppose I get a surrendered coin and place it in a circle? Would that have it beyond retrieval? Harry just buried his. The Vatican would know how to create a barrier if anyone human could.
-
Question - suppose I get a surrendered coin and place it in a circle? Would that have it beyond retrieval? Harry just buried his. The Vatican would know how to create a barrier if anyone human could.
Harry didn't just bury it. He buried it inside his circle in his lab. Lash said, she can tell him how to summon it from there. So it should be possible to summon circle trapped coins.
-
Harry didn't just bury it. He buried it inside his circle in his lab. Lash said, she can tell him how to summon it from there. So it should be possible to summon circle trapped coins.
He also had Lash's Shadow in his head, which had something to do with his abilty to summon the coin if need be, that was the whole object of the shadow in the first place. That is what makes Harry so unique and caught the attention of Uriel and Company, because it is almost impossible to throw off the influence of a Fallen Shadow once it takes up residence in the host's mind. However that connection is severed apparently when a coin is rejected by it's holder, as Cassius found out. So I doubt that even Nic could get his coin back once he rejected it.
-
I wonder about this scene. For Murphy to have broken the sword, did Nicodemus have to be sincere in surrendering the coin? I would think a false repentance to be particularly blasphemous and so Nicodemus would have earned any judgment inflicted by Karen.
-
Question - suppose I get a surrendered coin and place it in a circle? Would that have it beyond retrieval? Harry just buried his. The Vatican would know how to create a barrier if anyone human could.
You cannot compare Harry to the others because though he did pick up the coin, which allowed Lasciel's shadow to make contact with his brain, he never acceptedit. Accepting and making contact are two different things. The point of the shadow in his head was to tempt him and break down his defenses so that he'd ultimately accept the coin. This is what made Harry special and got the attention of Heaven, before Harry, if I remember correctly, no one had refused a coin once it's shadow was in his or her mind. So in a last ditch effort to save herself and Harry in White Night, Lash tried to get Harry to summon the coin buried in his basement.. As we know Harry refused, this impressed Lash and along with her love for him, motivated her to sacrifice herself for him.
Cassius had physically accepted and carried the coin for years, then he gave it up to surrender in an effort to save his skin... It was all over, he then could not get it back. In my opinion it is set up that way because by giving up the coin you are supposedly going to use the time remaining to you to try and redeem yourself, like Sanya.. Poor Cassius never intended to seek his redemption.
I wonder about this scene. For Murphy to have broken the sword, did Nicodemus have to be sincere in surrendering the coin? I would think a false repentance to be particularly blasphemous and so Nicodemus would have earned any judgment inflicted by Karen.
That's what happened to Cassius, he never was sincere about it, but his surrender of the coin was accepted and he was then screwed. I think if Murphy had accepted Nic's surrender the same thing would have happened to him. However Nic though Andriel knew that Murphy would never accept his surrender of the coin in hope he might redeem himself. He knew she had already judged him and felt him deserving of only one thing, execution... And since she is not the Almighty, it is not up to her to judge him, nor execute him, especially with a Holy Sword, which got it broken when she attempted it.
-
I wonder about this scene. For Murphy to have broken the sword, did Nicodemus have to be sincere in surrendering the coin? I would think a false repentance to be particularly blasphemous and so Nicodemus would have earned any judgment inflicted by Karen.
I think that's specifically not for the KotC's to judge.
By choosing to set down the coin -- even for just a few moments -- the KotBD has created an opportunity. The KotC's job, in those moments, is to make that choice stick.
-
I think that's specifically not for the KotC's to judge.
By choosing to set down the coin -- even for just a few moments -- the KotBD has created an opportunity. The KotC's job, in those moments, is to make that choice stick.
I don't think so, the Knight can encourage, but he or she cannot make the choice stick. Unless accepting that choice is what makes it stick, Murphy never accepted Nic's "choice" so it didn't stick.
-
I don't think so, the Knight can encourage, but he or she cannot make the choice stick...
They can't force the choice to "stick," of course!
Nevertheless, their task is to get that to happen, to be persuasive enough that the former-Denarian decides not to take up the coin again.