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The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: JTass on August 09, 2022, 08:45:23 PM
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Just had a thought and figured it was worth posting. Apologies if the subject has been posted previously.
In Brief Cases Mab implies that the Winter Lady is forced to be chaste because becoming pregnant would disqualify her eligibility for the position. From that premise one could assume that non-vaginal and/or non-penetrative sexual activity would be outside of the Winter Law prohibition.
Thoughts?
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The Winter Lady was chased by Carlos, and unfortunately for him her caught her,
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I don't think we know for sure yet, but I sort of doubt it'll allow much of that sort of activity.
It being a magic think make me believe that the requirements would be metaphysical rather than physical—after all, if its purpose was mere pregnancy prevention, it would be much more efficient to make her womb inaccessible or unsuitable than to fight off anyone who wants to give her a go.
My guess is that the mantle is keeping her an actual maiden, i.e. young, nubile, desirable, and unused.
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I don't think we know for sure yet, but I sort of doubt it'll allow much of that sort of activity.
It being a magic think make me believe that the requirements would be metaphysical rather than physical—after all, if its purpose was mere pregnancy prevention, it would be much more efficient to make her womb inaccessible or unsuitable than to fight off anyone who wants to give her a go.
My guess is that the mantle is keeping her an actual maiden, i.e. young, nubile, desirable, and unused.
I dunno about that... it was implied but never explicitly stated that Jenny Greenteeth was Maeve's lover. That could have been Maeve's way of sidestepping the chastity prohibition imposed by Winter Law.
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I dunno about that... it was implied but never openly stated that Jenny Greenteeth was Maeve's lover. That could have been Maeve's way of sidestepping the chastity prohibition imposed by Winter Law.
I think that was just a standard-issue temptation, a mimeshow for effect (IIRC, there's good research to the effect that the MFF menage a trois is (one of the, and maybe absolutely the) most-common male fantasies). Maeve was just working on Harry (and Billy).
I'm pretty sure Nemfection freed Maeve from all those restrictions, though... She could lie overtly, she could have intercourse with a man, etc.
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I'm pretty sure Nemfection freed Maeve from all those restrictions, though... She could lie overtly, she could have intercourse with a man, etc.
If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.
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The obligation against lying is Winter Law not particular to the Mantle, so Nemesis suborned Winter Law, breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm. The same happened with the Mantleless Lea.
This fits in with my theory that Nameless became subject to Winter Law solely in order to destroy it, (he is a Demi-god of Discord, and a crooked Lawyer) his aiding Nemesis just one of the aspects of his attack. Without Winter Law then Winter would lose its coordination, massively undermining the defence of the Gates. Oh and Nameless is Cowl of course.
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Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old. Mab kept Sarissa alive as part of a bargain(and because she wanted a spare). But certainly Nemesis would not have allowed Maeve to destroy the Mantle as long as he/she thought Maeve might become Mab.
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... If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.
... breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm...
Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old...
Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out? Can anyone cite or quote for me?
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“I . . . have a form of congenital dementia,” she said. “I watched what it did to my older sister and . . .” She shuddered. “Doctors can’t help me. Mab can.
Butcher, Jim. Cold Days (The Dresden Files, Book 14) (p. 71). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
Sarissa could have been lying, but then again Maeve was crazy as hell. The citation on the composer is in the WOJ database on Paranet.com.Maeve and Sarissa were twin sisters, from Mab. Their father was an Austrian composer and musician who died young.
2015 DragonCon
How often do the Ladies’, Queens’ and Mothers’ mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab’s been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve’s been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab’s time. And she didn’t fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
So given this Starborn business figure Maeve and Sarissa to be at least 600 years old.
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Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out? Can anyone cite or quote for me?
In Peace Talks it was established that forcibly removing the Mantle from Molly(via a Circle) would have left what remained not Molly. Suborning The Mantle would have had the same effect with Maeve, forcing it away from her.
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Breaking the Mantle would have killed Maeve since Maeve was hundreds of years old. Mab kept Sarissa alive as part of a bargain(and because she wanted a spare). But certainly Nemesis would not have allowed Maeve to destroy the Mantle as long as he/she thought Maeve might become Mab.
Do we have a lifespan for the Fae though? They may live hundreds of years. Lea doesn't appear to be aging fast
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They live until they die, usually by violence, which by Winter standards is listed as “Natural Causes”
A few Fae are genuinely immortal, the Queens, Kringle, The Erl King, most likely Lea. Physical or magical attack can’t kill them, only dissipate them for a time. I would add to this list Puck the Wildfae who is shown to be at Leas power level, and likely Eldest Gruff from Summer, who seems to be Titania’s second and probably more powerful than Sarissa.
I think that is a matter of power with the Lady’s just powerful enough to be Immortal. Nameless is probably under the Lady’s power level (which supports the Cowl theory, the Word would have made him immortal(here’s a thought Cowl achieves immortality on Harry’s birthday, only to be immediately killed by Harry)) and able to break free from Mab.
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Hmm.
I've obviously missed something in the text.
Help a brother out? Can anyone cite or quote for me?
Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."
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Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."
This is the quote that inspired my initial question of this post. Mab doesn't just imply, but overtly states that the underlying source of the Winter Lady's enforced chastity is that the maiden cannot become a mother. If that's all of the factors involved, then there are a myriad of sexual outlets that have no chance of pregnancy that are outside of Winter Law's prohibition (e.g., the implied lesbian relationship between Maeve and Jenny Greenteeth).
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If Nemesis could subvert her nature to that extent, then it would've been able to destroy the mantle, according to Mab's warning.
We don't know precisely what Nemfection can and cannot do.
My theory is that it does in fact eliminate that limit -- the Lady'sMantle won't even "notice" a Nemfected Lady have sex... become pregnant... even give birth.
It subverts all those things.
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We don't know precisely what Nemfection can and cannot do.
My theory is that it does in fact eliminate that limit -- the Lady'sMantle won't even "notice" a Nemfected Lady have sex... become pregnant... even give birth.
It subverts all those things.
I agree we don't know the total extent of Nemesis's power.We can, however, make some guesses. We know that when Aurora was infected, Nemesis did not destroy Aurora's mantle, but rather attempted to take Summer's knight mantle out of play by petrifying Lily. I believe if Nemesis could've destroyed Aurora's mantle, that particular plot wouldn't have been necessary.
My guess is that while Nemesis can infect the holder of a mantle and influence his or her actions, it can not actually directly manipulate the mantle to such a point. If it was within Nemesis's power to allow Aurora to lay with a man and become pregnant, it would've done so, because it would have achieved its goal at that point.
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I agree we don't know the total extent of Nemesis's power.We can, however, make some guesses. We know that when Aurora was infected, Nemesis did not destroy Aurora's mantle, but rather attempted to take Summer's knight mantle out of play by petrifying Lily. I believe if Nemesis could've destroyed Aurora's mantle, that particular plot wouldn't have been necessary.
My guess is that while Nemesis can infect the holder of a mantle and influence his or her actions, it can not actually directly manipulate the mantle to such a point. If it was within Nemesis's power to allow Aurora to lay with a man and become pregnant, it would've done so, because it would have achieved its goal at that point.
I agree that the control usually isn't complete.
Cat Sith was "completely" controlled most of the time, but sometimes could break through, for a bit.
Justine I think was completely controlled.
Because Winter embraces ambition & treachery, and Lea was in a "Frenemies" relationship with Mab, she and Nemesis had some clear alignments that let Nemesis lead Lea unwittingly into non-Winter & Law-violating paths.
Similarly, Aurora just wanted to end the cycles of pain and suffering. Her Summery compassion gave Nemesis channels of sympathy to play upon.
HOWEVER: if a Mantle detected its Lady getting "down & dirty" -- no longer a Maiden -- I think it would depart the (ex-)Lady for the nearest vessel; or to the Queen or even the Mother, for safekeeping & to be deployed later.
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Cold Case, Mab to Molly: "Maiden, mother, and crone. You are the maiden, Lady Molly. And for you to be otherwise, to become a mother, would be to destroy the mantle of power you wear. The mantle protected itself—as it must."
i read that sentence in cold case, and bells and light bulbs were going off in my head. there's so much info here. but i just didn't see anyone commenting on this.
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The obligation against lying is Winter Law not particular to the Mantle, so Nemesis suborned Winter Law, breaking the restrictions of the Mantle would have meant Maeve becoming a undifferentiated lump of protoplasm. The same happened with the Mantleless Lea.
This fits in with my theory that Nameless became subject to Winter Law solely in order to destroy it, (he is a Demi-god of Discord, and a crooked Lawyer) his aiding Nemesis just one of the aspects of his attack. Without Winter Law then Winter would lose its coordination, massively undermining the defence of the Gates. Oh and Nameless is Cowl of course.
Slight correction. The prohibition against lying, or, more correctly, the requirement to tell the truth at all times is a fae requirement. Like the vulnerability to cold iron, all fae have this. Not just those under Winter Law or those that are part of Accorded nations.
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Slight correction. The prohibition against lying, or, more correctly, the requirement to tell the truth at all times is a fae requirement. Like the vulnerability to cold iron, all fae have this. Not just those under Winter Law or those that are part of Accorded nations.
However the prohibition against lying isn't exactly true, that's why one should never bargain with the Fae unless they know exactly what they are doing and even then it is dangerous. Harry has learned this lesson the hard way and most likely will screw up again, but at least he knows what he is up against. In other words, Mab has made an art of it. She will tell you that she cannot lie, tell you the absolute truth, as far as what she is telling you.. The danger is in what she isn't telling you.
So when Harry or some else complains that isn't what they bargained for, Mab's answer is that it was, she can't lie, but you forgot to ask about a,b, or c.. So she wasn't lying, it is on you to see all the angles, not her.
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However the prohibition against lying isn't exactly true...
No; it is.
It is exactly true; no more, no less.
It's us poor mortal -- and moral -- schmucks (who think "deceiving" is also a form of lying) who get in trouble. Our erroneous beliefs, preconceptions, limited information, &c &c &c... These give the fae (particularly the powerful and well-informed Mab) a HUGE advantage in terms of bargains and trickery.
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No; it is.
It is exactly true; no more, no less.
It's us poor mortal -- and moral -- schmucks (who think "deceiving" is also a form of lying) who get in trouble. Our erroneous beliefs, preconceptions, limited information, &c &c &c... These give the fae (particularly the powerful and well-informed Mab) a HUGE advantage in terms of bargains and trickery.
I guess it depends on how you define what lying is.. Or rather understand that one can be dishonest without lying. A good rule perhaps is do not trust someone you are dealing with when they open with, "I cannot tell a lie," ergo trust me.
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i read that sentence in cold case, and bells and light bulbs were going off in my head. there's so much info here. but i just didn't see anyone commenting on this.
They'll get to it eventually when they come up for air.
The term lie is nebulous at best. As far as I can tell Mab can't tell a straight up untruth, saying for instance the moon is made of cream cheese. She can certainly tell lies of omission. The example that come to mind is when she takes Harry's blasting rod and his memories of ever having it in the first place.
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Deception can take many forms, lying is just the most blatant.
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Deception can take many forms, lying is just the most blatant.
Perhaps, but that is the point isn't it? You don't have to lie to be dishonest, which Mab and most Fae are. The lie of omission is perhaps the worst, because every word said can be the truth, but if an important part is left out, it is not true. A lie never passes her lips so Mab and other Fae can say they cannot tell a lie, all the while, and we've seen her do it, Mab leaves things out when she bargains all the time.. Ergo if you bargain with her and company, be careful, because you might not be getting what you think you are getting. In their mind, since the actual lie never crosses their lips, they do not lie, though they do it all of the time by omission. Mab even admits to it freely with a reminder that she cannot lie, then smugly explains to the poor mortal that they neglected to ask a or b so got screwed in the deal.
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The fae can also tell the truth from a certain point of view. Mab could say that Hitler was a great hero. Despite the commonly held point of view that he was a monster. To an ardent Nazi he was a hero. Truth from a certain point of view.
Fae restrictions in general are, guest rite, tell the truth, equal exchange, iron vulnerability (really a vulnerability to mortal workings), bargains, oaths or exchanges, asking three times is a binding, summoning rituals (binding if you know the fae's true name).
Winter Law seems to (so far) be restricted to not killing mortals uninvolved with the fae, and accepting an enemy's surrender. In return for good treatment that enemy must act as your vassal until they are ransomed back to their lord.
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... equal exchange ...
I think this one isn't reliable. As noted above, the fae delight in making "bargains" where the mortal gets far less/worse than they expected out of the deal... and often, pay a far worse price.
... iron vulnerability (really a vulnerability to mortal workings) ...
Similarly, I don't think the fae are generally vulnerable to "mortal workings" ... Mab as "Ms. Sommerset" had no problem magic'ing her way though Harry's locked door (presumably the knob&c were brass). Mab rode in a high-tech elevator at Marcone's building, at the beginning of Skin Game. Lady Molly appears to use a cellphone.
And I suspect the Svartalves -- and maybe a few others -- do not share the general Faerie iron-vulnerability; so you can't count on it.
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They are vulnerable to mortal workings. That's the reason iron and steel are extra-fatal to them. Even so far as paralyzing them when immortal fae are penetrated by it. Way back in Death Masks (?) Harry dumped reality powder of Lea, which was mostly made of depleted uranium powder, and it burned the crap out of her.
The reason why Molly can use high tech is that the mantle has either suspended her mortal magic, transformed it into fae magic, or somehow overriden her Murphyonic field. There is precedent. Harry and Molly used to sit inside a circle to have their magic contained if they wanted to watch a movie with their friends or family. Perhaps the mantle does the same thing, traps her magic inside her body somehow and applies a skin of the mantle's magic over her.
Equal exchange is part of balancing the scales. E.G. Butters removing the rebar from Mab's neck during the Battle of Chicago. He was not bound to do so by contract or treaty. Once she was back on her feet she offered him a favor to balance their scales. Even when Harry, as the Warden of Demonreach, bound Ethniu, he was then able to bind Lady Molly to pay for all the medical aid and funeral for Chicago. Because the Warden is not bound to Winter or a signatory of the Accords. By binding Ethniu, he put Winter in his debt. Ethniu was Winter and Accorded nation's enemy. Winter had to balance the scales with the Warden.
Mab passing through Harry's threshold was a matter of guest rite. Since she was not offering him any harm, she was behaving within guest rite and allowed to enter without permission. Though, as we saw in The Law from Harry's perspective, most of her power was probably left outside.
The Svartalves made Harry's upgraded ring in his workshop. Which was copper, silver and iron, combined into one ring. He had to pay a premium for them to work with iron. I thought he'd lost it in Changes, but it was still there in PT. But, per WOJ, not everything native to the Never Never is vulnerable to iron. (At least not vulnerable beyond the usual, like being cut by a steel sword)
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I mostly agree except the exchange of Favors doesn't have to be equal. If you were to use a Favor from the fae on something trivial(say a doughnut) it would be a settled debt. As long as each delivers on what's asked, all is well.
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But, there was still a favor given for a favor granted. Equal exchange. The price the Warden extracted was very steep, monetarily. But, even with all of the supernatural heavy hitters gathered in Chicago, the Warden was the only one that could bind and imprison Ethniu. Now she's a resource he could use. Harry effectively got paid twice for doing the same job. Plus, he holds the eye. A completely unequal bargain, but by fae rules and equal exchange.
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They are vulnerable to mortal workings. That's the reason iron and steel are extra-fatal to them...
No, Iron is something specific.
Aluminum, for example, is more "worked" than iron (it takes more-advanced mortal tech to extract and process) but offers no extra damage. Bronze is comparably worked to steel, but offers no extra damage. Even a piece of wood -- if elaborately carved, properly seasoned, etc; all "mortal workings" -- should make the fae vulnerable, but does not. Modern synthetics should be the worst of all... nylon, plastic, etc. None are a problem for the fae.
... The reason why Molly can use high tech ...
I think we have yet to see Jim's explanation for that. It may be as you speculate here; or it may be something wholly-different.
... Even when Harry, as the Warden of Demonreach, bound Ethniu, he was then able to bind Lady Molly to pay for all the medical aid and funeral for Chicago. Because the Warden is not bound to Winter or a signatory of the Accords. By binding Ethniu, he put Winter in his debt. Ethniu was Winter and Accorded nation's enemy. Winter had to balance the scales with the Warden.
Christmas gifts are something else; that's part of Winter's obligation, liege to vassal (I wonder if Harry did anything for Toot? And if not, is he in any sort of "trouble"?).
Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.
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Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.
Actually it was Mab and the members of the Accords, Harry didn't bind her into it. Because they brought the battle to Chicago,Harry claimed the members of the Accords violated the "guest-right" rule. Paying for medical and funeral bills was one of the things he demanded from the members of the Accords to compensate the people of Chicago for damages done to them and their city by the battle. Harry also stressed that it was needed to restore balance. Mab backed him up on it, he is her vassal, the Winter Court followed through and Lady Molly presented him with the receipts for the medical and funeral bills paid, on Christmas Eve.
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Harry didn't "bind" Lady Molly to pay; that came as a surprise to him.
Go back and read Battle Ground, the part where Molly is walking around in a fireman's coat after the battle. Molly even said that Harry has bound a queen right after he makes the demand.
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Molly can use a phone because she is no longer human. The Fae use technology constantly throughout the series. Mab has a yacht and a fleet of cars. In Cold Days the Redcap rides a jet ski. Even Harry's effect on technology is fading. In Storm Front he walks the stairs to his office and now he rides elevators without thinking about it.
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Go back and read Battle Ground, the part where Molly is walking around in a fireman's coat after the battle. Molly even said that Harry has bound a queen right after he makes the demand.
That isn't the same as what he did to Ethinu though. I think what Molly was referring to is promises made by a Fae. The one giving the promise, is bound to honor it, but that isn't the same kind of binding that Harry used to send Ethinu to Demonreach.
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He bound her as a fae is bound by equal exchange.
Just like he later bound all of the supernatural nations present under guest rite.
It's a different type since it required no battle of wills, but it's just as binding, within its limitations. We've never seen what happens to a fae that fails to fulfill a contract, but as we've seen with Harry in PT, there's a real, physical consequence. Molly described a unfulfilled contract owed her as an itch that she can't scratch.
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He bound her as a fae is bound by equal exchange.
Just like he later bound all of the supernatural nations present under guest rite.
It's a different type since it required no battle of wills, but it's just as binding, within its limitations. We've never seen what happens to a fae that fails to fulfill a contract, but as we've seen with Harry in PT, there's a real, physical consequence. Molly described a unfulfilled contract owed her as an itch that she can't scratch.
When a Fae makes a promise in a bargain, he or she binds himself or herself to the promise. As we saw in Summer Knight, Harry had bound himself to Lea for three promises in exchange for whatever she gave him to fight Justine.. However Mab was able to take over that contract, then promises were then moved to her. In the case of Ethinu, Harry needed blood and had to say the right words to bind her, but she wasn't bound to Harry, she was bound to the prison.
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When a Fae makes a promise in a bargain, he or she binds himself or herself to the promise. As we saw in Summer Knight, Harry had bound himself to Lea for three promises in exchange for whatever she gave him to fight Justine.. However Mab was able to take over that contract, then promises were then moved to her. In the case of Ethinu, Harry needed blood and had to say the right words to bind her, but she wasn't bound to Harry, she was bound to the prison.
Harry bound Ethniu. He beat her will to resist the binding. Not Demonreach. The prison is just where she is bound.
The Lady, Queen, and Mother mantles were already bound to behave under equal exchange. Harry did a favor for Winter, who were defending Chicago under their Accords, which the Fomor were attacking. Winter was obligated to return the favor. Harry demanded payment, they had no choice but to grant the favor or suffer the consequences, which we don't know what they would be. But, they would have to be serious.
When Mab acquired Harry's favor to Lea, we don't know how. Did Mab demand them as service from her vassal? Was it the price Mab extracted to cure Lea of Nemfection? Or did Mab trade a favor to Lea in exchange for Harry's favor? While Lea was incapacitated by being cured, Mab acted to fulfill her vassal's obligations. Just as when Harry was mostly dead Mab acted to fulfill his obligation to train Molly, transferring that obligation to Lea, who was already bound to fulfill Harry's obligation to train Molly as his Godmother.
Harry himself has a ton of obligations. And not just favors owed to others. He is owed favors and tends to forget them or brush them off. I'll be watching to see if he doesn't start taking those favors owed more seriously as the mantle takes hold.
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Winter Law is whatever Mab says it is. And it applies only when she wants it to and then only to the Fae and not the rest. She let the Hobs loose in the train station and I'm pretty sure that most of the dead wouldn't have known or ever heard of Mab. When Lea got uppity during Dead Beat Mab took the Atheme and tortured her until she saw the error of her ways. Not an equal exchange in my book. And that can't lie thing apparently only works on the Queens on some schedule that I can't discern. The rest of her court is composed of Fae keeping busy by knifing each other and plotting for personal gain. A plot is by definition a lie.
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Just as when Harry was mostly dead Mab acted to fulfill his obligation to train Molly, transferring that obligation to Lea, who was already bound to fulfill Harry's obligation to train Molly as his Godmother.
Not so much out of obligation, that merely provided an excuse.. Mab freely admits in Cold Days that because she felt Molly would make a good candidate to become Lady, [though she wanted her for Summer] she prepared her for the role, then in very Mab-like fashion laid the blame all on Harry.
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Winter Law is whatever Mab says it is. And it applies only when she wants it to and then only to the Fae and not the rest. She let the Hobs loose in the train station and I'm pretty sure that most of the dead wouldn't have known or ever heard of Mab. When Lea got uppity during Dead Beat Mab took the Atheme and tortured her until she saw the error of her ways. Not an equal exchange in my book. And that can't lie thing apparently only works on the Queens on some schedule that I can't discern. The rest of her court is composed of Fae keeping busy by knifing each other and plotting for personal gain. A plot is by definition a lie.
I tend to think there is some underpinnings of Winter Law beyond simply what Mab says it is. Faerie Law is not just Winter. As noted, Mab kept obligations/favors, which seems to be a Faerie law beyond her realm. Guest rite is too - even the Erlking follows that. So does Summer. Summer rewarded Morgan and Harry with a boon each. And Harry sold his for a donut. And it worked.
And a plot is NOT a lie by definition. A plot does not need to involve a lie at all. It may. It may involve deception or subterfuge, which are NOT lies. Wouldn't you call Titania giving Harry a pin with Fae GPS in it plotting? She did it for future use, as she did with Morgan. Where was the lie? She never SAID she could always track it. She told Morgan they could not track HIM. They didn't. They tracked the pin.
And promises can be twisted. You can give someone something they asked for in a way they did not want. If, say, Rudolph was pursued now by a supernatural being, and ran into Harry and asked Harry to get him to safety - well if Harry tossed his ass in a Demonreach cell, that's pretty safe now, isn't it? Lea considered leaving Harry a hound to keep him safe. i doubt that's what his mom would have wanted.
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For the purposes of the lore Butcher taps into the formality we use to carry on relations in a conflict thus guest right and all that follows. About lying, from my perspective it can be summarized by Mab saying that the Stars will fall from the sky before Mab breaks a promise. It is her will that the Fae don't lie. But of course they do. Deception and subterfuge are lies. They just aren't obvious lies. But I don't insist that you travel down this road with me I just offer it as a counterpoint.
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... the Fae don't lie. But of course they do. Deception and subterfuge are lies. They just aren't obvious lies. But I don't insist that you travel down this road with me I just offer it as a counterpoint.
It is part and parcel with the Fae "letter of the law" & hair-splitting attitude.
Fae never flatly-deny that they deceive, or engage in subterfuge. But they do not engage in that part of deception comprised of positively-affirming a known un-truth -- that (and only that) is a "lie" (as language is used by the fae).
Here is an interesting thought-experiment: is there some language which doesn't have all these fine divisions of kinds-of-deception. If there's only one word for all that stuff, do faeries still deny that they do it? Do they then -- bound by their word -- not do any of it??!?
... It is [Mab's] will that the Fae don't lie...
I don't think so; I think Mab is bound in this by Faerie Law. Mab is certainly not sovereign over Titania!
... About lying, from my perspective it can be summarized by Mab saying that the Stars will fall from the sky before Mab breaks a promise ...
I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet. But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
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I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet. But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
I think more pointedly what I think she has always said, " I cannot lie, but since you failed to includeallpossibilities of stars falling from the sky before and after in your question, the untruth is your problembecause I cannot lie. Though one could argue she had all the information, but simply failed to include it, that is your problem because you never asked.
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I think more pointedly what I think she has always said, " I cannot lie, but since you failed to includeallpossibilities of stars falling from the sky before and after in your question, the untruth is your problembecause I cannot lie. Though one could argue she had all the information, but simply failed to include it, that is your problem because you never asked.
I think "shooting stars" are a reasonable take on "stars fall from the sky." I expect this to feature in the BAT; it's a classic apocalyptic trope.
This will free Mab to lie, to betray her bargains, to fail in collecting what's due her, etc.
I'm unclear, however, if this is something Mab is using as a tactical/strategic thing (building up her rep for being such a stickler, then freeing herself from those limitations, the better to fight for Creation), or as a foretelling/warning -- that Nemfection will let her lie &c (as it did Maeve) and she foresees her own fall to Nemfection.
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It is part and parcel with the Fae "letter of the law" & hair-splitting attitude.
Fae never flatly-deny that they deceive, or engage in subterfuge. But they do not engage in that part of deception comprised of positively-affirming a known un-truth -- that (and only that) is a "lie" (as language is used by the fae).
Here is an interesting thought-experiment: is there some language which doesn't have all these fine divisions of kinds-of-deception. If there's only one word for all that stuff, do faeries still deny that they do it? Do they then -- bound by their word -- not do any of it??!?
I don't think so; I think Mab is bound in this by Faerie Law. Mab is certainly not sovereign over Titania!
I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet. But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
Any deception has at it's heart, a lie. You can test this if you so choose. It just isn't explicit. If it were simple we wouldn't need lawyers.
It's debatable if Titania is a peer or something else. Certainly they are Mab's Accords, not Titania's. When Mab shut down all access to portals to the mortal world it included Summer. But my out on this is to look at Mab and Titania as two different sides of the same coin. With a side helping of a third we haven't seen.
For my internal canon Mab's statement means exactly what it says, she holds true to her word.
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I'm unclear, however, if this is something Mab is using as a tactical/strategic thing (building up her rep for being such a stickler, then freeing herself from those limitations, the better to fight for Creation), or as a foretelling/warning -- that Nemfection will let her lie &c (as it did Maeve) and she foresees her own fall to Nemfection.
She does it all of the time! Right when Harry or someone else says, "that's not what we bargained for!" Her reply is always, "yes, it was, but you neglected to ask this or that or it doesn't mean this or that.." "I cannot lie, if you didn't fully understand the deal, that is your problem."
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She does it all of the time! Right when Harry or someone else says, "that's not what we bargained for!" Her reply is always, "yes, it was, but you neglected to ask this or that or it doesn't mean this or that.." "I cannot lie, if you didn't fully understand the deal, that is your problem."
Note that Harry usually acknowledges that, in fact, he does know the rules of Fae bargaining; and, in fact, he did bargain poorly.
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Any deception has at it's heart, a lie. You can test this if you so choose. It just isn't explicit. If it were simple we wouldn't need lawyers.
No. It has at its heart dishonesty. A lie is an out and out untruth. Misleading, even intentionally, is not lying.
Let us pretend magical ability can be quantified simply. All people can be classified on a scale from 1 (normals) to 10 (the Merlin).
Harry says:
"The White Council has inducted all wizards of a power level 6 or greater."
"I am a level 7"
One would usually assume Harry is part of the WC.
Well, he WAS. But he is not NOW.
But what did he say was untrue?
He WAS inducted.
He IS a 7.
He did not say "All wizards of power level 6 or greater ARE part of the WC" THAT would be a lie, as he was kicked out.
If he said "The WC screens wizards, and any they find of a level 6 or up are inducted" we are led to believe all level 6 and up are, or have been, part of the WC.
But Elaine is a 6.
But she flunked her tests and they think she's a 4. Harry knows this. But he tried to mislead you.
The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true.
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The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true.
Exactly, and like a lawyer, the Fae know the law better than you do, thus it is dangerous to try and bargain with them.
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No. It has at its heart dishonesty. A lie is an out and out untruth. Misleading, even intentionally, is not lying.
Let us pretend magical ability can be quantified simply. All people can be classified on a scale from 1 (normals) to 10 (the Merlin).
Harry says:
"The White Council has inducted all wizards of a power level 6 or greater."
"I am a level 7"
One would usually assume Harry is part of the WC.
Well, he WAS. But he is not NOW.
But what did he say was untrue?
He WAS inducted.
He IS a 7.
He did not say "All wizards of power level 6 or greater ARE part of the WC" THAT would be a lie, as he was kicked out.
If he said "The WC screens wizards, and any they find of a level 6 or up are inducted" we are led to believe all level 6 and up are, or have been, part of the WC.
But Elaine is a 6.
But she flunked her tests and they think she's a 4. Harry knows this. But he tried to mislead you.
The Fae are heartless, soulless creatures. They ARE natural lawyers. They draw these distinctions. They let you believe what they want you to believe. Whether or not it is true.
If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost. This is a knowledge mismatch. She knows Titania is out to murder him. This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.
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If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost. This is a knowledge mismatch. She knows Titania is out to murder him. This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.
But it never passes her lips, ergo she isn't lying. The Fae are not vanilla mortals, so they have a different point of view, so yeah, there are going to be communication problems. Since Mab was human once, she does understand the human point of view, and uses it to her advantage when bargaining.
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I offer a WAG:
In this quote, Mab isn't saying "I will never lie."
She is saying, "I'm not lying... yet. But I will... after the Stars fall from the sky."
I'll go you one better. We know WHEN Mab will lie. The last book is called Empty Night. A sky without stars.
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I'll go you one better. We know WHEN Mab will lie. The last book is called Empty Night. A sky without stars.
That could also be a premonition of her death. She could go to her grave truthful.
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If you use a thesaurus it will become clear. The Fae and in particular Mab take advantage of a knowledge mismatch, what they know and what you think you know. The perfect example of this happens in Small Favor when Mab makes Dresden her Emissary before asking him to be one. He thinks he can say no without understanding the cost. This is a knowledge mismatch. She knows Titania is out to murder him. This is also a form or coercion. The lie is letting him believe that he has a choice.
Harry knew he had no choice. Mab called in a Favor. Mab also TOLD him Summer's agents were after him. She TOLD him that SHE was not the danger he had been warned of - that someone ELSE (Gruffs) were coming.
Mab actually was pretty up front. She wanted essentially a PI. Talked of his talent for finding things. Called in her marker. She told him about Titania's agents - granted, his survival further's Mab's cause, as dead men find no kidnapees. More than coerced, I'd say she used her leverage.
Knowledge mismatch? Happens all the time. If we sit down to a game of chess, and FIDE rates you at 1200 and me at 2200, there is a knowledge mismatch. They basically say i can sit there and guzzle Jack Daniels from the bottle and still I am expected to win. Nothing dishonest about it.
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Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie. Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.
So why is that? This is a wild theory that came to me while I was watching a special about King Tut..
Don't ask me why. ??? But here it is, when you are bargaining with a Fae, it is like looking in a mirror. We see our reflection, we think we are seeing truth, but the image is backwards.. So the Fae might indeed be telling the truth, but we lie to ourselvesas we hear it, or in another words it amounts to a lot of wishful thinking. That's why it is so dangerous to bargain with the Fae...
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Anger flared in my chest and shoved my brain aside on its way to my mouth. “That wasn’t our deal,” I snapped. “Our bargain stipulated that I would choose which favors to repay and that you would not coerce me.”
“I have not coerced you, nor dispatched any agent of mine to do so,” Mab continued, as if the break in the conversation had never happened. “Nonetheless, if you wish to survive, you will serve me. I assure you that Summer’s agents will not rest until you are dead.”
Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve. The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.
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Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve. The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.[/quote]
Yes, Mab did name Harry Winter's Emissary in Summer Knight, however it wasn't until the end of the book that Aurora met her death because Harry set Toot and the rest of Za'Gard on her. Before her death Titania had no real reason to attack him. Titania was pissed at the Winter Court, true, because she blamed Mab for her Knight's murder. I guess by extension you could say that since Harry was named Emissary and trying to get to the bottom of it on Mab's behalf she'd attack him too, but there was nothing personal about it. Since Summer Knight? Yes, Titania has a very personal grudge against Harry and will attack him if the rules allow.
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This was in Small Favor although Summer Knight sets it up and foreshadows it.
Fear not for your little warriors. They were your weapon, and the only one accountable for their actions will be you. Take their steel with you, and it will be enough."
So Mab knew that, if given an opportunity, that Titania would take revenge.
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This was in Small Favor although Summer Knight sets it up and foreshadows it.So Mab knew that, if given an opportunity, that Titania would take revenge.
However Mab still made Harry her Emissary in the beginning of Summer Knight, before he even knew Titania or she him. I don't think Mab foresaw the loyalty of Za'Gard, or that Harry could even gain their loyalty, because normally the Little Folk do not do that. Common knowledge, check out the reaction from the White Council when Harry called Za'Gard into action in Battle Ground.
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Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie. Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.
So why is that?
Because they cling to the letter of the law and not the spirit. They can find little ways to screw you if they wish. You ask to be saved from pursuing Gruffs, Mab teleports you out... and you are a Popsicle at Arctis Tor. Well, the Gruffs did not get you..... so she performed up to her end. They are smart, crafty, have thousands of years to accumulate a huge vault of dirty tricks. And the smarter they are... the more dangerous.
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Mab did indeed coerce him. She knew that naming him as Emissary would free Titania to attack him and that was the whole point. Mab lied. She named him Emissary before she asked him to serve. The term is fait accompli. Butcher deceived you by pulling a fast one. He expects you to ignore the implicit deception.
Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time. Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora. Those guys also chased various Carpenters... they are not emissaries.
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Yes, Mab did name Harry Winter's Emissary in Summer Knight, however it wasn't until the end of the book that Aurora met her death because Harry set Toot and the rest of Za'Gard on her. Before her death Titania had no real reason to attack him. Titania was pissed at the Winter Court, true, because she blamed Mab for her Knight's murder. I guess by extension you could say that since Harry was named Emissary and trying to get to the bottom of it on Mab's behalf she'd attack him too, but there was nothing personal about it. Since Summer Knight? Yes, Titania has a very personal grudge against Harry and will attack him if the rules allow.
An Emissary seems to be an agent or arbiter - not necessarily linked to a cause. Luccio asks Harry which Emissary he might prefer, and he says the Archive. She is not in either camp. Harry has no Winter standing at that point. i don't think hiring one gets their loyalty. In fact, unless there is a rule we have not yet seen, at the start of Small Favor, Titania could have hired Harry to find Marcone. Let the Denarians kidnap him, send Eldest Gruff to break in and whack him after Harry finds him, and the finger points to the kidnappers...
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Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time. Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora. Those guys also chased various Carpenters... they are not emissaries.
The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense.“I have chosen you to be my Emissary,” Mab said to me. “You will repay me a favor owed. You will find the Baron.
Not I will choose, but I have chosen. Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's.
Butcher sets this up in Summer Knight by establishing that the Queens can't just attack any mortal they choose. Which is why the chlorofiend can't hurt Murphy in Summer Knight. He goes to a lot of trouble to establish this. For Titania to attack Harry he has to be connected to Summer in some fashion. That connection doesn't exist until Harry is named Emissary. It's explains the doughnut. When Harry gets back to Chicago the Emissary's work is finished and Harry is again safe.
This is actually her second run at Harry. She uses her position as a Fate to choose for Harry to die in the alley behind Bock's Books in Dead Beat. When Marcone interferes Titania uses this fact to attack him in Small Favor.“This is another point of contention between you and Titania.”
“When one Court moves, the other perforce moves with it,” Mab said.
I croaked, “Titania wants Marcone dead?”
“Put simply,” she replied. “And her Emissary will continue to seek your death. Only by finding and saving the Baron’s life will you preserve your own.”
This arc effectively ends when Titania gives up her quest for vengeance in Cold Days. It also has ramifications for Proven Guilty and helps explain why Mab is defending her borders.
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The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense. Not I will choose, but I have chosen. Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's.
It is perhaps another instance (like "outright lying" vs "mere deception") of where "Faerie Rules" are grossly unfair to mortals.
Mab chose Harry; evidently she "named" him as Emissary. That made him a target for Summer.
Only later did she actually get his agreement to serve as Emissary. I suspect faerie law has some sort of escape-clause (something Harry is/was ignorant of).
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Titania attacked him at the beginning of Small Favor before Mab even shows up. He's not her Emissary at that point... Titania may simply want him dead for Aurora.
It seems possible (indeed more than possible, but probable) that Mab declared Harry as her Emissary, and thus painted a Summer Target onto Harry.
Because we know the Queens cannot actually have a mortal directly killed, except via their Knights.
So Titania having the Gruffs attack is solid proof that Harry doesn't have mortals' normal workaday immunity.
... He's not her Emissary at that point. He has to take the job. He has no standing in Winter at that time.
Unless he is her Emissary, simply by fiat of the Queen of Air and Darkness (or maybe it's Harry's "3 services" bargain, plus her word). He may not need to actually "accept" the job.
As noted, Titania's attack seems pretty solid evidence that Harry does indeed have "standing" as a Winter agent...
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This is just a simple matter of timing.
Mab learns of Marcone's kidnapping and names Harry as her Emissary, Titania immediately knows of the appointment because they are linked but Harry doesn't. So in the time before Mab tracks down Harry and notifies him of the favor being called, Titania sends the Gruffs on the hunt. And because Jim has to make Harry's life difficult, he has Mab take her sweet time getting to Harry and informing him.
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This is just a simple matter of timing.
Mab learns of Marcone's kidnapping and names Harry as her Emissary, Titania immediately knows of the appointment because they are linked but Harry doesn't. So in the time before Mab tracks down Harry and notifies him of the favor being called, Titania sends the Gruffs on the hunt. And because Jim has to make Harry's life difficult, he has Mab take her sweet time getting to Harry and informing him.
There is something else going on, though... as I recall, the deal is that Mab is owed 3 services, but that Harry gets to choose. He can Nope out from any given service.
Maybe ... hmmm, maybe Mab's choice is valid *until* he Nope's out?
(as usual, the mortal's ignorance isn't Mab's problem, and Harry is ignorant that Mab named him Emissary)
So she lets him get attacked.
THEN tells him he's her Emissary.
But she doesn't tell him he can still Nope out... and presumably (with Harry no longer her Emissary) that would stop the attacks.
Very fae, very letter-of-the-law deceptive.
I'd have to go back and re-read both the scene where Harry and Mab originally seal the "3 Services" bargain, and the scene where they negotiate this specific "save Marcone" service, to see if such an interpretation *actually* fits the specific agreements.
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Which meant that I'd be an idiot not to check for razor blades and cyanide.
"I decide which requests I fulfill and which I don't?"
"Even so."
"And if I refuse a request, there will be no reprisals or punishments from you."
She tilted her head and blinked her eyes, slowly. "Agreed. You, not I, will choose which requests you fulfill."
There was one land mine I'd found, at least. "And no more selling my mortgage, either. Or whistling up the lackeys to chastise or harass me by proxy. This remains between the two of us."
She laughed, and it sounded as merry, clear, and lovely as bells—if someone pressed them against my teeth while they were still ringing. "As your godmother did. Fool me twice, shame on me, wizard? Agreed."
I put in bold the hook that Mab hung Harry on. The lie is, she won't punish Harry for not taking the job, but she gives him the job anyway knowing that Titania will attempt to kill him.
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Here is a wild thought, Mab or any other Fae will look you in the eye and tell you they cannot lie. Now that may be true, in which case bargaining with them shouldn't be all that dangerous, but it is.
Of course that includes Molly now.
So why is that? This is a wild theory that came to me while I was watching a special about King Tut..
Don't ask me why. ??? But here it is, when you are bargaining with a Fae, it is like looking in a mirror. We see our reflection, we think we are seeing truth, but the image is backwards.. So the Fae might indeed be telling the truth, but we lie to ourselvesas we hear it, or in another words it amounts to a lot of wishful thinking. That's why it is so dangerous to bargain with the Fae...
This is oddly close to what Harry warned Maeve about. Once you can lie, you start lying to yourself.
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The tense of the phrase when Mab talks to Harry in the snow storm is past tense.Not I will choose, but I have chosen. Which is why the Gruff's attacked at Michael's.
She talks to Harry AFTER the attack at Michael's. The two Gruffs that attack at the start of Chapter 7, right after Mab leaves are described as But they were bigger than the first attack team - bigger, stronger, and faster'
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Because we know the Queens cannot actually have a mortal directly killed, except via their Knights.
So Titania having the Gruffs attack is solid proof that Harry doesn't have mortals' normal workaday immunity.
Unless he is her Emissary, simply by fiat of the Queen of Air and Darkness (or maybe it's Harry's "3 services" bargain, plus her word). He may not need to actually "accept" the job.
As noted, Titania's attack seems pretty solid evidence that Harry does indeed have "standing" as a Winter agent...
But couldn't a Winter or Summer Queen thereby kill any vanilla human they wish by "Oh, I named him my Emissary in charge of watching for tidal waves in Nebraska. Just hadn't told him yet"
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To use a vanilla mortal Mab would first have to create a bargain. This is established in Summer Knight when Mab forces Harry to stab himself. He tied himself to Winter by bargaining with Lea. Mab bought him from Lea and all else follows.
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The problem with any binding agreement is that it can mean something totally different to what you expect. Think of those young artists who sign away the rights to their works. Harry agreed to do 3 favours to Mab of his choose. Mab made it so harry had to choose to do it. Harry wasnt aware of how little choose he did have.
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The problem with any binding agreement is that it can mean something totally different to what you expect. Think of those young artists who sign away the rights to their works. Harry agreed to do 3 favours to Mab of his choose. Mab made it so harry had to choose to do it. Harry wasnt aware of how little choose he did have.
I think it is more that Harry wasn't aware that his contract with his god mother could be traded or sold or taken over by another more powerful Fae, i.e. Mab. You are right when the holder of the Fae contract demanded payment, he a mere mortal, had no choice. That's the rule that even Mab cannot violate, she owes a favor, she has to pay up, though she can manipulate how she does it. We saw that in Skin Game, she owed Nic a favor, when he demanded payment, she was obligated to pay, however she paid it in her own way, thus she and Marcone got their revenge and the Artifacts/Weapons came into the hands of her Knight.
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Sorry if this rambles a bit.
I've been pondering Battle Ground and Peace Talks.
When Molly launches into the explanation of why she can't step outside the circle in PT, it's also a clue for later on. Her mantle is more invasive than Harry's. Shedding her mantle the wrong way would damage her. And Harry's can inflict pain if he goes against Mab's word. Which probably means that Molly can't go against Mab's word. But as we see in The Good People, she can do as she pleases provided she doesn't.
She has some free will, but nowhere near what she had as a mortal. But, there's no way Uriel would stand for a total loss of free will or the loss of an immortal soul. So, we can assume that she's still mortal, but under a geas and a glamor. Jim has said that the mantle is changing the bearer's DNA, but that could be explained by Molly and Sarissa looking like twins now.
So, she's got to behave as a fae would, equalizing scales, hoarding knowledge, vulnerable to iron.
She also appears more fae when she's leaning into the mantle, like when she was coordinating communication for the fae and addressed Harry as Mab would, with eyes and ears totally fae. Was that because her mortal mind was occupied and left the mantle to answer Harry? Because, coming from a tripartite entity like Hecate, you have to assume three or all six queens have some sort of hive mind, at some level.
The final point I want to bring up is during the limo ride to the Carpenter's house, Molly leans into Harry's hand and tells him, "You're my knight too, Harry." I don't think that was the Winter Lady speaking. She made sure that they were isolated with no outside observers. And the Winter Lady has never given the knight an order. In fact, everything we've seen about Winter Law argues against it. Winter Law is whatever Mab says it is. Never Molly, Maeve or even Mother.
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Of course the mantle is more integral to Molly - the Lady is Fae royalty - the knight is a Fae AGENT. (BTW, Harry, that is the word you were looking for to describe your relationship to Mab. She is not your Queen. She is your employer, your patron, your client. You are a hireling, an agent. )
Mab runs Winter's day-to-day ops. She's CEO. But The Knight, IIRC serves WINTER, not just Mab. So senior staff (read, Molly) can require things. And, should she ever want to step up, Mother is Chairman of the board/majority stockholder. She can override Mab.