ParanetOnline
The Dresden Files => DF Spoilers => Topic started by: Tinfoil hat on August 07, 2022, 10:31:53 AM
-
1st time poster
This topic has been discussed before. But
In the past the wc has been criticized for its head off first ask qns never policy in regard to the warlocks. But think about this, most members of the wc are a couple hundred years old or older. Most of them either saw kemmler rise or have masters, mentors or friends who were there. I think its possible that kemmler had a trial and was placed under the doom. Instead of turning a new leaf, he became well him. The council members who voted for leniency probably carry a lot of quilt over what he eventually became.
Then comes harry Dresden. I mean come on. All the older wizards seem to be able to tell how strong someone is, and how strong they will come. Justin was trained by the council's vampire expert, justin was probably not a push over and harry beat him at 16. Given that morgan thought Dresden was a destroyer, I think the older generations have an idea or suspect what harry was meant to be. Everyone looks at harry and rightly sees a stronger, better version of kemmler who in a couple of centuries will be as strong as Ebenezer.
-
The White Council's take here would be far less troubling if they had a large scale program and policy for searching out and training youngsters with talent. As it is, they only find blossoming talent when they trip over it. And the Council is too concentrated geographically in Europe and Asia to do much good for the rest of the world.
Harry can become an example of the direction the Council needs to take by using his Wyldfae pact to form a network with the Paranet for searching out young talent and reporting the finds to set of regional Council offices. It could even become one of the main jobs of the Fae Courts after the BAT to assist humanity's recruiting in the role of protecting the Outer Gates.
-
Well done on your first post. Good topic to break out with.
So yeah generally accepted theory is everyone of the older members of the Council has Kemmler trauma. Morgan in particular.
If you read Luccio's short story theirs some more hitns there. Kemmler formed the Thule Soceity. Which was an actual fascist occult secret soceity. Part of him building up World War 1.
There's also a section in Paranet Papers that covers Simon Pietrovich and his role leading up to and including the Russian Revolution. Black Court Purge included but also that Pietrovich almost got taken out by the Blackstaff despite several warnings.
-
Drakul speaking to Harry in the fight at the graveyard.
“I would tell you to ask of your own White Council what they aren’t telling you, what they bred you for, and what they expect you to do.”
Butcher, Jim. Battle Ground (Dresden Files) (p. 118). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
With regards Harry this implies that The White Council entered into the thing with their eyes wide open. It also seems clear that they are afraid of what they have made.
-
Drakul speaking to Harry in the fight at the graveyard.With regards Harry this implies that The White Council entered into the thing with their eyes wide open. It also seems clear that they are afraid of what they have made.
Sorta, I think it more like they hadn't planned on Lord Raith taking out Margaret, nor Malcolm being murdered. Then they really dropped the ball by not insisting that Eb track his grandson down and raise him instead of letting him languish in a orphanage and foster homes for the next five years.. Though yeah, since the fact that Margaret was Eb's daughter and therefore Harry his grandson was sort of kept from everyone.. Which begs the question of, why? Further totally losing track of young Harry so that the now warlock, Justin could adopt him and raise him up for his own purposes. So while the Council may have applied pressure to have Harry conceived, they sure screwed up once he was born. It smells of too many secrets and half truths being kept from those who really needed to know.
-
...
In the past the wc has been criticized for its head off first ask qns never policy in regard to the warlocks. But think about this, most members of the wc are a couple hundred years old or older. Most of them either saw kemmler rise or have masters, mentors or friends who were there. I think its possible that kemmler had a trial and was placed under the doom. Instead of turning a new leaf, he became well him. The council members who voted for leniency probably carry a lot of quilt over what he eventually became.
Then comes harry Dresden. I mean come on. All the older wizards seem to be able to tell how strong someone is, and how strong they will come. Justin was trained by the council's vampire expert, justin was probably not a push over and harry beat him at 16. Given that morgan thought Dresden was a destroyer, I think the older generations have an idea or suspect what harry was meant to be. Everyone looks at harry and rightly sees a stronger, better version of kemmler who in a couple of centuries will be as strong as Ebenezer.
The WC has to kill the warlocks after a certain point. They become irredeemable. Even Dresden himself -- one of the sharpest critics of the policy -- admits this.
The question for the WC is -- has Harry Dresden passed that point? Does Dresden himself "need killing" ???
Because of their fear -- their "Kemmler PTSD," if you will -- many of the WC are either unable to decide rationally -- seeing Harry through Kemmler-tinted glasses; or have (rationally, if rather cold-bloodedly) decided "better safe than sorry" -- that the downside risks of a Warlock Dresden simply outweigh the risk that they might needlessly kill someone theoretically-redeemable... or even someone more-or-less innocent!
Someone here on the Paranet, some years (and several DF novels) ago, wrote up a Warden-POV "threat assessment" file on Harry Dresden; it was reasonably amusing. It was also reasonably... well... reasonable, as an in-world rationale for why Dresden is "highly suspicious" at very best.
As has been said: what the WC really needs (in terms of "the warlock problem") is a huge initiative aimed at finding young talents early, before they have a chance to "go bad," and training them up properly (i.e. with an understanding of what the problems ARE, and how to AVOID them). I've been advocating for the idea that the Paranet to step up, in this role. I think we're seeing some foreshadowing that the WC is doomed to fall, and I think the Paranet may be poised to step into the role of the premier wizarding organization; a concerted effort to find/educate young talents could be a great demonstration of how they'r better-suited than the WC is. I like @vincentric's notion that Harry could leverage his faerie connections here, also.
-
As has been said: what the WC really needs (in terms of "the warlock problem") is a huge initiative aimed at finding young talents early, before they have a chance to "go bad," and training them up properly (i.e. with an understanding of what the problems ARE, and how to AVOID them). I've been advocating for the idea that the Paranet to step up, in this role. I think we're seeing some foreshadowing that the WC is doomed to fall, and I think the Paranet may be poised to step into the role of the premier wizarding organization; a concerted effort to find/educate young talents could be a great demonstration of how they'r better-suited than the WC is. I like @vincentric's notion that Harry could leverage his faerie connections here, also.
I believe the Merlin's excuse for that not being done to Harry back in Proven Guilty after the Korean Kid got the chop was 1] there wasn't enough qualified wizards to take on apprentices, 2] that there were even fewer willing to take the risk of taking on a perhaps redeemable kid only to fail and die with him/her under the edit of the Doom. So he and the Council felt that a zero tolerance policy was safest for all.
-
The White Council take death as the first and only option for Warlocks, they seem incapable of putting in the resources to locate young wizards early and their policy of masquerade means that there is no public recognition of the problem.
The WC sets itself up as the authority in this area, yet clearly is incapable of exercising that authority in a prompt and effective manner.
It would be interesting to see whether Harry’s own policy of openness would allow for early identification of Warlocks before the death penalty is used. The Paranet means that talented families can at least recognise a Wizard level talent early on.
-
I believe the Merlin's excuse for that not being done to Harry back in Proven Guilty after the Korean Kid got the chop was 1] there wasn't enough qualified wizards to take on apprentices, 2] that there were even fewer willing to take the risk of taking on a perhaps redeemable kid only to fail and die with him/her under the edit of the Doom. So he and the Council felt that a zero tolerance policy was safest for all.
To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.
The WC's official position is, they don't seek out young proto-Talents before they get into trouble... Let's look at the downstream consequences, hmm? What's the throughline, here?
With the impulses of young hormones, with the impulse-control of youth, with the judgment of youth, with the maturity of youth how many of these burgeoning talents -- really -- aren't going to "get into trouble?"
Particularly in the "developed" countries, where most people will deny the magic, and generally assign "crazy" and similar labels.
So then the newly-emerged talents go Warlock.
And get killed.
I mean ... just look at Molly.
She had a wonderful, loving family-upbringing.
She had about the best moral guidance that mortal parents can provide.
And, she went Warlock.
If a kid like Molly (of all people!) can't avoid it... who's likely to? Anyone? Calling it like I see it here, and it looks to me like a big NOPE. (Or rather: only with a huge, HUGE dose of dumb luck!)
===
The net result therefore looks an awful lot like the Whamp plot to "cull" Talent out of humanity. The Merlin/WC plan is actually better than the Whamp plan: the wizards are filtering for the strongest, most effective talents! (weak/ineffectual magic being unlikely to rise to the level of Warden action)
-
I think the issue is that the WC model is no longer ideal for the modern world. But on the other hand taking every little talent to be part of the council may be a bad idea.
Harry was the youngest member of the council and the council went to war for him against the reds (not really).
The wardens like Carlos complain about having little say in the council despite doing most of the fighting.
-
To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.
Oh I don't disagree with that at all, it is perhaps a good reason why Margaret rebelled against the Council so hard. The Council in it's principles is good, but it for the most part hasn't adjusted to the modern world. The result is a secretive and paranoid group that is deaf to any new idea or thought of change.
-
To be very blunt -- the Merlin is being startlingly stupid, here.
The WC's official position is, they don't seek out young proto-Talents before they get into trouble... Let's look at the downstream consequences, hmm? What's the throughline, here?
With the impulses of young hormones, with the impulse-control of youth, with the judgment of youth, with the maturity of youth how many of these burgeoning talents -- really -- aren't going to "get into trouble?"
Particularly in the "developed" countries, where most people will deny the magic, and generally assign "crazy" and similar labels.
So then the newly-emerged talents go Warlock.
And get killed.
I mean ... just look at Molly.
She had a wonderful, loving family-upbringing.
She had about the best moral guidance that mortal parents can provide.
And, she went Warlock.
If a kid like Molly (of all people!) can't avoid it... who's likely to? Anyone? Calling it like I see it here, and it looks to me like a big NOPE. (Or rather: only with a huge, HUGE dose of dumb luck!)
===
The net result therefore looks an awful lot like the Whamp plot to "cull" Talent out of humanity. The Merlin/WC plan is actually better than the Whamp plan: the wizards are filtering for the strongest, most effective talents! (weak/ineffectual magic being unlikely to rise to the level of Warden action)
Well maybe The Merlin is stupid or maybe he is corrupt, or some combination thereof. I like corrupt but your mileage may vary.
In the real world it works exactly the way it seems to work in the Files. We don't "see" the homeless or mentally ill, until they kill someone, or they become so numerous that they are no longer hidden. Then we weep an wail and "do" absolutely nothing. Seems to describe the White Council in a nutshell. I wonder if Butcher does this consciously? He's used the trope a couple of times. And he uses it to describe Charity Carpenter and motivate her, in her interactions with Molly.
-
In the real world it works exactly the way it seems to work in the Files. We don't "see" the homeless or mentally ill, until they kill someone, or they become so numerous that they are no longer hidden. Then we weep an wail and "do" absolutely nothing. Seems to describe the White Council in a nutshell. I wonder if Butcher does this consciously? He's used the trope a couple of times. And he uses it to describe Charity Carpenter and motivate her, in her interactions with Molly.
Oh I believe it is deliberate, it helps to give his fantasy a bit of a different twist. There is no secret about it from the beginning the main theme has been of Harry Dresden, a wizard openly advertising the fact and practicing magic in modern Chicago. One foot in both worlds fighting both the supernatural and the problems plaguing our times.
-
I'm wondering if Harry can start something like a magical campus in Chicago. He should easily get 18 Council level apprentices from Chicago alone. More if word spread.
The Council is elitist, and that's the problem. They don't have enough wizards to take on apprentices so they wait until they turn warlock and kill them? Seriously? Technically speaking you only need a minor talent to stop someone from going warlock. You just need to make sure they observe the laws. Doesn't take a wizard, and there is a lot more minor talents than there are prospective apprentices /warlocks. The prospectives can then take weekly or twice weekly lessons with Harry, college style.
-
I have posited the same.
The Paranet know what the WC have done to Harry despite what Harry did for the WC, they are not going to pass potential Wizards to the WC they are going to pass them to Harry. That’s most of North America.
Harry is also going to be a magnet for disaffected and abused apprentices from the WC from across the world, and wobetide the Wizard who so abuses his young apprentice that they reach Harry. They will be so forced to swear on their power that they will not be able to do anything.That’s a smattering of apprentices across the world.
Harry can’t do one on one teaching in these circumstances but could engage others, Elaine and Molly and Mort (for Ectomancy directly, but no reason he can’t channel say Morgan for evocation and Mort could stand to broaden his education), Butters for magical theory and comparative supernatural biology. Guest Lecturers like River Shoulders or Kringle. If he can save Chandler in Mirror Mirror, then he has another teacher who would be delighted to teach. Harry doesn’t have the WC prejudice against non-human practitioners.
-
I have posited the same.
The Paranet know what the WC have done to Harry despite what Harry did for the WC, they are not going to pass potential Wizards to the WC they are going to pass them to Harry. That’s most of North America.
Harry is also going to be a magnet for disaffected and abused apprentices from the WC from across the world, and wobetide the Wizard who so abuses his young apprentice that they reach Harry. They will be so forced to swear on their power that they will not be able to do anything.That’s a smattering of apprentices across the world.
Harry can’t do one on one teaching in these circumstances but could engage others, Elaine and Molly and Mort (for Ectomancy directly, but no reason he can’t channel say Morgan for evocation and Mort could stand to broaden his education), Butters for magical theory and comparative supernatural biology. Guest Lecturers like River Shoulders or Kringle. If he can save Chandler in Mirror Mirror, then he has another teacher who would be delighted to teach. Harry doesn’t have the WC prejudice against non-human practitioners.
I can see that leading to a civil war among the wizards. The White Council will never go for an open school headed by Harry, they will want his head more than ever.
-
I can see that leading to a civil war among the wizards. The White Council will never go for an open school headed by Harry, they will want his head more than ever.
I think it'd be very complicated.
To begin with, I don't think there are enough "pro-Harry" wizards to support a civil war, as such.
A "war" against Harry, or his "school"?
I'm pretty sure the White Council wouldn't go to war against Winter. Frankly, that would be tantamount to suicide, and I think most of them know it. Harry's the WK, and with winterfae now inhabiting the Castle, it would be hard to see a White Council attack there as anything else.
I have posited the same.
The Paranet know what the WC have done to Harry despite what Harry did for the WC, they are not going to pass potential Wizards to the WC they are going to pass them to Harry. That’s most of North America.
Harry is also going to be a magnet for disaffected and abused apprentices from the WC from across the world, and wobetide the Wizard who so abuses his young apprentice that they reach Harry. They will be so forced to swear on their power that they will not be able to do anything.That’s a smattering of apprentices across the world.
Harry can’t do one on one teaching in these circumstances but could engage others, Elaine and Molly and Mort (for Ectomancy directly, but no reason he can’t channel say Morgan for evocation and Mort could stand to broaden his education), Butters for magical theory and comparative supernatural biology. Guest Lecturers like River Shoulders or Kringle. If he can save Chandler in Mirror Mirror, then he has another teacher who would be delighted to teach. Harry doesn’t have the WC prejudice against non-human practitioners.
My own theory is that the Paranet itself will become the "school." I'm sure they count some talented educators among their number, who could design curricula. I would think of Harry as more in that "guest lecturer" role...
... specifically, teaching Defense Against The Dark Arts! :o ;D
But the Paranet can teach many students the introductory material, only calling upon the stronger practitioners for specific "special needs."
-
I can see that leading to a civil war among the wizards. The White Council will never go for an open school headed by Harry, they will want his head more than ever.
Don't forget that he does have allies on the senior council. It's just that most of them were sick when he got sacked. Besides, the operation will start so small that it'll probably escape their notice, and when they do notice, it'll take a while for them to make a decision, much less get something done. Probably enough time that Marcone in general and Harry in particular will be strong enough that the Council will never be able to set foot in Chicago.
-
I think it'd be very complicated.
To begin with, I don't think there are enough "pro-Harry" wizards to support a civil war, as such.
A "war" against Harry, or his "school"?
I'm pretty sure the White Council wouldn't go to war against Winter. Frankly, that would be tantamount to suicide, and I think most of them know it. Harry's the WK, and with winterfae now inhabiting the Castle, it would be hard to see a White Council attack there as anything else.
My own theory is that the Paranet itself will become the "school." I'm sure they count some talented educators among their number, who could design curricula. I would think of Harry as more in that "guest lecturer" role...
... specifically, teaching Defense Against The Dark Arts! :o ;D
But the Paranet can teach many students the introductory material, only calling upon the stronger practitioners for specific "special needs."
Nah, Harry would teach Shop, the making of magical tools and artefacts.
It’s population, just like Starborn there are so many wizards being born that there are not enough current wizards to apprentice them in the traditional manner. The WC has lost considerable membership in the last decade due to the War with the Red Court, especially amongst those members who would be warden capable. The fact they impressed Harry shows they cannot afford a war with Harry, he has too many powerful allies and a worrying tendency to wipe out antagonists. To move against Harry publicly and fail would break the White Council. To fail to contain the burgeoning Warlock problem will also break the White Cpouncil.
The Castle almost certainly has to be seen as a garrison of Winter following The Law, which almost certainly provoked Harry to get the Za Guard living there, whoever tried to bomb Harry got out of date info, so not Marcone or Nameless. Sounds like the Merlin, trying to solve the Harry problem without publicly being seen to do so.
-
Nah, Harry would teach Shop, the making of magical tools and artefacts.
I don't think Harry can be any regular part of such a school.
To begin with, that'd set up all sorts of alarm-bells for the "Execute Warlock Dresden!" camp in the WC. It'd likely set all those students up as targets for the WC, because they "graduated from the Warlock School."
But also, Harry sees himself (not unreasonably) as a danger to others -- he's a "Trouble Magnet."
He'd be really unhappy to attract (possibly indiscriminate) attacks that could do collateral damage to a bunch of wizardlings.
But most of all, I don't think Jim wants to write anything to further conflate the Potterverse/Hogwarts with the Dresden'verse! Just the shared name "Harry" & being wizards was dismaying to him.
-
Harry actually enjoys teaching, and he may not get a chance to avoid it if half a dozen wizard level talents only a year or two older than Maggie end up on his doorstep. The Carpenters have several vacant rooms and their eldest daughter was in a similar position.
Harry is working to make things as safe for Maggie as possible with the Castle, we know there will be Gargoyles between The Law and The Good People to provide physical muscle, he’s probably working on the Never Never link and doubtless working on some way Of tracking magical threats within Chicago on real time (I can think of two ways Little Chicago 2, and Gary and Butters developing a program capable of tracking the effect of magic users on internet electronics systems, not sure paranoid Gary hasn’t already figured something out and just not told anyone).
Besides it’s another problem for Harry which means Jim would certainly be attracted to the idea, half a dozen arguing, horny, teenagers for Harry to corral against the interest of the City Authorities, putting Harry on a collusion course with the White Council when Harry would like a low profile.
-
Nah, Harry would teach Shop, the making of magical tools and artefacts.
Harry can't teach shop, he has all his fingers.....
-
I'm pretty sure the White Council wouldn't go to war against Winter. Frankly, that would be tantamount to suicide, and I think most of them know it. Harry's the WK, and with winterfae now inhabiting the Castle, it would be hard to see a White Council attack there as anything else.
I disagree. Not saying the WC WILL move against a school, but that the SCHOOL being considered part of Winter. The Knight is a liaison with a foot in each world, but he CAN be attacked for his HUMAN side without it being seen as an attack on Winter. Shooting a Marine at a US Embassy on guard duty can be considered an attack on the US. The same Marine being stabbed in a bar fight offduty that night is not.
It also strikes me that if any attack on the WK is an attack on Winter - even if he was doing it at Harry's behest, why didn't Winter move against Kincaid? He shot the WK with intent to kill him. They didn't because that was Harry on Harry - personal, not professional Winter work.
-
Harry can't teach shop, he has all his fingers.....
He nearly had an entire hand amputated - does that count?
-
I disagree. Not saying the WC WILL move against a school, but that the SCHOOL being considered part of Winter. The Knight is a liaison with a foot in each world, but he CAN be attacked for his HUMAN side without it being seen as an attack on Winter. Shooting a Marine at a US Embassy on guard duty can be considered an attack on the US. The same Marine being stabbed in a bar fight offduty that night is not.
It also strikes me that if any attack on the WK is an attack on Winter - even if he was doing it at Harry's behest, why didn't Winter move against Kincaid? He shot the WK with intent to kill him. They didn't because that was Harry on Harry - personal, not professional Winter work.
I agree. Mab wont defend her knight if he does something stupid. There is a woj that if harry breaks the laws of magic, she wont defend him.
Most powers dont know what Mab will orwont do which harry takes advantage of in BG when he threatened Carlos.
It's the knight's job to protect the queen not the other way around
-
There is a woj that if harry breaks the laws of magic, she wont defend him.
Which is kind of weird, because the Knight is at least partly a hitman. Surely the Queens would expect Knights who don't bring magic of their own to rely on Winter ice magic in the course of carrying out certain kill orders.
Would someone like Slate be subject to execution for doing his Winter job if the Wardens got their hands on him?
-
Which is kind of weird, because the Knight is at least partly a hitman. Surely the Queens would expect Knights who don't bring magic of their own to rely on Winter ice magic in the course of carrying out certain kill orders.
Would someone like Slate be subject to execution for doing his Winter job if the Wardens got their hands on him?
I think it's a question of mortal magic -- which is subject to the White Council's laws of magic -- vs the powers of the WK Mantle. Slate -- and similar WK's -- can't break the White Council's laws.
It's could be tough -- depending on the effect Harry employs -- for the Council to be clear whether Harry was using Mantle or genuine Magic.
-
I think it's a question of mortal magic -- which is subject to the White Council's laws of magic -- vs the powers of the WK Mantle. Slate -- and similar WK's -- can't break the White Council's laws.
Yeah, since Slate wasn't a wizard, he never was subject to White Council Laws.
-
I disagree. Not saying the WC WILL move against a school, but that the SCHOOL being considered part of Winter ...
It's specifically the castle, I think, that becomes problematic for the Council.
Bastion of the Winter Knight, staffed by Winter-aligned Fae ... Basically (from the outside) it looks an awful lot like "this is a part of Winter."
I don't think they know enough to be clear where the lines are. We have a unique perspective. I'm sure there are WC secrets we don't yet know, but we have more insight into Winter (& Mab) than any living White-Council wizard except Rashid... who isn't likely to help them.
-
... Besides, the operation will start so small that it'll probably escape their notice, and when they do notice, it'll take a while for them to make a decision, much less get something done ...
As per my own theory, I think the Paranet will be taking "lead" on the school. And I think the overwhelming majority of students will be "minor talents" like the Ordo Lebes were.
They may even make a show of directing some borderline cases to the White Council, and maybe get a "White Council Approved" curriculum around teaching the Laws.
Elaine certainly knows how to contact Carlos!
But if they "hide in plain sight" that way, the WC will probably ignore such a school indefinitely... very much unlike a school run by Headmaster Harry.
-
It's specifically the castle, I think, that becomes problematic for the Council.
Bastion of the Winter Knight, staffed by Winter-aligned Fae ... Basically (from the outside) it looks an awful lot like "this is a part of Winter."
I don't think they know enough to be clear where the lines are. We have a unique perspective. I'm sure there are WC secrets we don't yet know, but we have more insight into Winter (& Mab) than any living White-Council wizard except Rashid... who isn't likely to help them.
Which may be why the Merlin attacked the Castle in Little Things he was aware Harry was there he wasn’t aware of the change in its status.
I actually think that because the Paranet was associated with Harry they will be persona non grata (or as Harry would translate “I don’t own a cheese grater!”) whilst there are certain things minor talents can do, teaching a potential wizard and the issues they might bring is another thing. Dealing with a gateway to the Never Never for example.
-
Which may be why the Merlin attacked the Castle in Little Things ...
Except that the whole "the Merlin was the perp" idea is just a theory. And honestly, a pretty weak one: it doesn't look like the Merlin's work, to me; it's just too clumsy, too overt. Like the car-bomb that got Murphy's Saturn, it... isn't part of his vernacular. If the Merlin wanted Harry dead, he's got MUCH better ways to do it.
... I actually think that because the Paranet was associated with Harry they will be persona non grata (or as Harry would translate “I don’t own a cheese grater!”) whilst there are certain things minor talents can do, teaching a potential wizard and the issues they might bring is another thing. Dealing with a gateway to the Never Never for example.
I don't think "the Paranet" is really even on the WC's radar.
At most, I think the WC are vaguely aware that the little "clubhouse" groups (such as the Ordo Lebes) are communicting a bit more. Remember, the Paranet largely uses the Internet, so they are inherently "wizard-resistant."
Harry called Carlos to "check up on" Elaine, who had previously been hired by the Ordo.
Harry then did his "Harry protects girls from Vamps" thing, stomping on another group of Vamps in the process (and doubtless alarming the WC tremendously; but it was an Accorded duel & Carlos participated, and the Whamps ended up paying weregild so it looks very legal & aboveboard).
Elaine ended up administering the weregild; she was the one who "created" the Paranet.
If they started a school, I expect they'd be noticed sooner rather than later.
So, Elaine proactively contacts Carlos... "I'm helping the minor talents organize and train, adopting the kids who were orphaned by the White Court, etc. Can you take a look at this training-material on the Laws of Magic for me? We really don't want to run afoul of the wardens! Maybe you could even send wardens to do occasional trainings with us? Pretty please?"
And, being a full-on Wizard-level talent herself, she can filter the trainees, make sure no Warden ever encounters any trainees that the White Council would want to grab. But she can send a few strong-but-not-quite-WC-strong talents to Carlos for "testing."
-
The Merlin cannot afford to take a shot at Harry and miss….in public. The “let’s blame it on a gas explosion” fits nicely with that.
-
He nearly had an entire hand amputated - does that count?
Nope. Almost doesn't count. Lack of commitment. Hand looks almost normal now.
-
Which is kind of weird, because the Knight is at least partly a hitman. Surely the Queens would expect Knights who don't bring magic of their own to rely on Winter ice magic in the course of carrying out certain kill orders.
Can't kill HUMANS with magic. Vampires, etc, other supernaturals are fine. Other Fae are fine.
Icicle thru the guts like the Ramp duel? Looks like Winter mantle, though he could have hit her with anything anyway
-
It's specifically the castle, I think, that becomes problematic for the Council.
Bastion of the Winter Knight, staffed by Winter-aligned Fae ... Basically (from the outside) it looks an awful lot like "this is a part of Winter."
Gotta be careful on that line, because if it is Winter, it could be an embassy, which would make Harry an ambassador - is there diplomatic immunity?
-
So, Elaine proactively contacts Carlos... "I'm helping the minor talents organize and train, adopting the kids who were orphaned by the White Court, etc. Can you take a look at this training-material on the Laws of Magic for me? We really don't want to run afoul of the wardens! Maybe you could even send wardens to do occasional trainings with us? Pretty please?"
And, being a full-on Wizard-level talent herself, she can filter the trainees, make sure no Warden ever encounters any trainees that the White Council would want to grab. But she can send a few strong-but-not-quite-WC-strong talents to Carlos for "testing."
Might be careful having Elaine around Carlos too much. He's convinced NOW she is a minor talent. What if he stumbles on she is likely stronger than him? Isn't she almost Harry-level? Just a little more finesse?
And how well do wizards detect power levels? She has Carlos fooled, and he's strong enough to be a Warden. The wizards might only be able to see on and off. Harry seemed surprised at Ascher's power and he had been on the expedition with her.
-
... is there diplomatic immunity?
I'm pretty sure Host-Right & Guest-Right is about as far as the Unseelie Accords go towards that concept.
-
Might be careful having Elaine around Carlos too much. He's convinced NOW she is a minor talent. What if he stumbles on she is likely stronger than him? Isn't she almost Harry-level? Just a little more finesse? ...
She won't have to have much interaction with Carlos. Hand over a copy of the "7 Laws Lesson Plan," bat her eyelashes.
Mostly, after that, she'll have other teachers be interacting with the Wardens.
But even if she does have to deal more with Carlos... remember, she'll be teaching now. Just like Harry did, Elaine will find her powers developing more quickly & more deeply. She'll be getting more and more able to deceive Carlos.
... Harry seemed surprised at Ascher's power and he had been on the expedition with her.
Remember, Hannah was being coached in deception by the Web-Weaver herself, Lasciel.
-
Gotta be careful on that line, because if it is Winter, it could be an embassy, which would make Harry an ambassador - is there diplomatic immunity?
Unless he's training little warlocks. In which case Carlos will be like "it's just been revoked"...
As per my own theory, I think the Paranet will be taking "lead" on the school. And I think the overwhelming majority of students will be "minor talents" like the Ordo Lebes were.
They may even make a show of directing some borderline cases to the White Council, and maybe get a "White Council Approved" curriculum around teaching the Laws.
Elaine certainly knows how to contact Carlos!
But if they "hide in plain sight" that way, the WC will probably ignore such a school indefinitely... very much unlike a school run by Headmaster Harry.
Not indefinitely. As soon as the war with the fomor is settled, the wardens will devote more time to checking on low level magical societies, which is part of their jobs.
PS: @Ed: could you please not double (and triple and quadruple) post? It buries the posts before you, making them harder to quote.
-
Gotta be careful on that line, because if it is Winter, it could be an embassy, which would make Harry an ambassador - is there diplomatic immunity?
It’s the company car all over again, attack Harry’s home Mab will ignore, but an attack on a Winter Garrison she will not. Whoever (Merlin) tried to bomb the Castle will have to answer to her at some point and that gives Harry as Winter Knight the capacity to challenge to a duel whoever organised it (Merlin) with the full power of Winter behind him. As a Vassal of Winter on Winter Business Harry would be guaranteed unmolested access to the White Council and specifically the Merlin to issue the challenge. It’s the only way he could get one on one with the Merlin and we know from the Gatekeeper this is going to happen in the future.
If Harry has any sense he would ask Eldest Gruff to be his second.
-
Except that the whole "the Merlin was the perp" idea is just a theory.
Plus, Harry in non-member limbo where they might move against him is a political lever for Langtry over Ebenezar. Harry blown up neutralizes an asset along with a potential problem.
-
Plus, Harry in non-member limbo where they might move against him is a political lever for Langtry over Ebenezar. Harry blown up neutralizes an asset along with a potential problem.
I'm a little bit scared of you right now...
-
... Whoever (Merlin) tried to bomb the Castle will have to answer to her at some point and that gives Harry as Winter Knight the capacity to challenge to a duel whoever organised it (Merlin) with the full power of Winter behind him. As a Vassal of Winter on Winter Business Harry would be guaranteed unmolested access to the White Council and specifically the Merlin to issue the challenge. It’s the only way he could get one on one with the Merlin and we know from the Gatekeeper this is going to happen in the future.
If Harry has any sense he would ask Eldest Gruff to be his second.
If he could prove it was the Merlin -- if he could even make a credible case -- he'd have grounds to go to the White Council, and to issue a challenge under the Accords.
The Merlin could then either apologize (and pay some nominal fine, since he didn't kill Harry (but suffer a massive hit to his rep within the Council!)) or accept, and they'd likely duel.
We've seen 2 Accorded challenges, IIRC. Ortega vs. Harry, and Harry+Carlos vs Vitto+Maddy. The first one was much more formal, with time between challenge & duel, 2nds to be found, a neutral arbiter (who got to define the methods of the duel!). The 2nd one had none of that; a brief pause while the challenged armed themselves, then an "anything goes" fight (no neutral 3rd party, etc).
It's unclear to me what made both of those duels "legal" under the Accords, which generally seem quite finicky about the details (where they have details); and then very wide-open where they don't. Hence, I'm very unclear what sort of duel would occur if the Winter Knight challenged the Merlin.
The big risk, as I see it, would be if some 3rd party was arbiter, and chose "Power" as the method for the duel... even with all his powerups to date, Harry is WAY behind the Merlin in magical brawn.
-
And yet he fought Eb to a draw in Battle Ground who is supposed to be the best Battle Wizard. Langtry is considered to be the best defensive wizard, but you don’t win a duel on defence. For example Langtry erects a shield no attack can get through, Harry could use soul Fire to enhance that shield so that Oxygen doesn’t get through and then wait for Langtry to pass out.
Langtry at this point has to consider Harry a greater political threat than Eb, he isn’t an asset, and he is the more immediate threat.
-
It’s the company car all over again, attack Harry’s home Mab will ignore, but an attack on a Winter Garrison she will not. Whoever (Merlin) tried to bomb the Castle will have to answer to her at some point and that gives Harry as Winter Knight the capacity to challenge to a duel whoever organised it (Merlin) with the full power of Winter behind him. As a Vassal of Winter on Winter Business Harry would be guaranteed unmolested access to the White Council and specifically the Merlin to issue the challenge. It’s the only way he could get one on one with the Merlin and we know from the Gatekeeper this is going to happen in the future.
If Harry has any sense he would ask Eldest Gruff to be his second.
An attack on a Winter Embassy is an attack on Mab and will not be tolerated.
Eldest gruff is Summer. Titania likely blocks it. Scary Sidhe Lady is Winter. Mab is likely fine with Lea going, and she outclasses anything the WC can muster, even Eb.
Two spit-in-the-face seconds choices:
1) If the duel is considered Winter-WC : Former WC apprentice Molly
2) If the duel is considered personal: Grandpa Eb. Also takes away Langtry's best battle mage.
The one that spooks everyone on both sides? Rashid.
(Rashid likely turns it down. Uriel turns it down, but even if he didn't, they would know there would be no treachery. Play by the rules and you're safe. Vadderung would turn it down, then show up with a horn of mead and bowl of popcorn to watch. Possibly with the Erlking and Gruff. )
-
And yet he fought Eb to a draw in Battle Ground who is supposed to be the best Battle Wizard. Langtry is considered to be the best defensive wizard, but you don’t win a duel on defence. For example Langtry erects a shield no attack can get through, Harry could use soul Fire to enhance that shield so that Oxygen doesn’t get through and then wait for Langtry to pass out.
Langtry at this point has to consider Harry a greater political threat than Eb, he isn’t an asset, and he is the more immediate threat.
To be fair, I think Eb was holding something back. He wanted to win without hurting Harry badly or killing him. Langtry will not pass on that so readily.
-
But even if she does have to deal more with Carlos... remember, she'll be teaching now. Just like Harry did, Elaine will find her powers developing more quickly & more deeply. She'll be getting more and more able to deceive Carlos.
Elaine may not gain as much as Harry did in reviewing her lessons. She may have learned the little things the FIRST time, while Harry was making things work by throwing power at it until it happened. She developed skill, while he compensated with raw power.
Example - 2 kids as golfers. Boy is hitting his drives with his arms and upper body, girl is using her hips and legs, turning the torso. Boy outhits girl, but only by a little. A few years later, they both go to a golf school to have their skills examined and deconstructed. Girl is fine tuned, gets a little more distance, but is otherwise similar to before. Boy is now getting HIS hip turn into it, and his legs, and gains 30 yards to his drive. Re-examining her game had minor points to fix, but he had missed large things where he replaced skill with raw power. He now develops skill, and the gap between the two widens.
-
To be fair, I think Eb was holding something back. He wanted to win without hurting Harry badly or killing him. Langtry will not pass on that so readily.
But Harry goaded him into doing exactly that.
-
I mean be real here people, harry didn't beat eb -not really- he tricked him into fighting a hologram made by the winter lady while he got out of dodge.
-
But that’s the argument that an old wizard will beat a young wizard in a nutshell, except Harry reversed the script.
It’s telling that Harry deflected Eb’s boulder instead of trying to stop it and Eb is annoyed that Harry finally listened to him NOW. Harry is a much much wilier opponent than he should be for a wizard of his age, it’s not just combat experience, it’s preparation and don’t forget Harry had only his staff, no shield bracelet, blasting rod or force rings. We know as of The Law he has all of these back, he is preparing and that includes taking on the WC and the Merlin when HE is ready.
He is almost certainly developing countermeasures for a confrontation with the WC, I note that he examined Carlos favourite attack carefully during BG, he probably has figured a way to nullify it as Carlos is likely to be used against him.
-
Harry cant beat Ebenezer, hes John Cena 2008-2012, Brock Lesnar 2014 and Roman Reigns 2021 combined. While the Merlin is Undertaker at WrestleMania pre brock Lesnar.
-
Harry cant beat Ebenezer, hes John Cena 2008-2012, Brock Lesnar 2014 and Roman Reigns 2021 combined. While the Merlin is Undertaker at WrestleMania pre brock Lesnar.
Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.
Harry wins every time now over Eb.
The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.
-
Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.
Harry wins every time now over Eb.
The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.
Harry "died" when one of Eb's built in auto defenses triggered. He now knows he can survive long enough to run away but that's a long way from winning a straight-up duel.
Don't get me wrong. I believe Harry is a top 10 wizard but the top 3, EB, Langtry and Rashiid will take him down.
-
We've seen 2 Accorded challenges, IIRC. Ortega vs. Harry, and Harry+Carlos vs Vitto+Maddy. The first one was much more formal, with time between challenge & duel, 2nds to be found, a neutral arbiter (who got to define the methods of the duel!). The 2nd one had none of that; a brief pause while the challenged armed themselves, then an "anything goes" fight (no neutral 3rd party, etc).
Debatably also a 3rd was Harry vs. Ariana Ortega. Technically not proper in that the Red King ordered a disadvantageous choice of method to punish her usurpation scheme, instead of having her choose as the challenged party, but still more structured than the one in WN in that it was limited to one means instead of everything-goes.
-
Harry has already beat Eb - confidence is a huge thing for a practitioner of magic and now Eb realises he can’t beat Harry without killing him. Harry on the other hand knows he has stood up to the worst Eb can dish out and walked away unharmed.
Harry wins every time now over Eb.
The Merlin requires a different strategy Harry needs to undermine the Merlin politically in any duel they have, show what he has been up to behind the scenes to the assembled White Council destroy his political power and his confidence at the same time.
Harry didn't beat Eb - he stalemated an Eb who was holding back. Eb showed if he went all out he could win. This can embolden Harry, but he has to recognize the limits Eb put on himself. We saw the best Eb could do will kill Harry.
I'm not 100% sure Langtry takes Harry down. He probably does, but Langtry is a defense specialist. I don't think Harry has a chance of taking him down either (Barring maybe a Soulfire attack Langtry didn't know about). This is possibly like when Nik offered Harry a coin, and when Harry asked if he was going to let him walk, Nik said "I doubt I could stop you" as in "You can't hurt me. I know that. The question is if I have the firepower to get you". Eb has shown he can if he has to. I wonder sometimes if Eb is really the best battle wizard. We know little of Rashid....
Carlos has technical ability that may (or may not - Harry tends to run himself down) exceed Harry's but I don't think he can take Harry. A middleweight contender gets pounded by a journeyman heavyweight.
-
Harry didn't beat Eb - he stalemated an Eb who was holding back. Eb showed if he went all out he could win. This can embolden Harry, but he has to recognize the limits Eb put on himself. We saw the best Eb could do will kill Harry.
I'm not 100% sure Langtry takes Harry down. He probably does, but Langtry is a defense specialist. I don't think Harry has a chance of taking him down either (Barring maybe a Soulfire attack Langtry didn't know about). This is possibly like when Nik offered Harry a coin, and when Harry asked if he was going to let him walk, Nik said "I doubt I could stop you" as in "You can't hurt me. I know that. The question is if I have the firepower to get you". Eb has shown he can if he has to. I wonder sometimes if Eb is really the best battle wizard. We know little of Rashid....
Carlos has technical ability that may (or may not - Harry tends to run himself down) exceed Harry's but I don't think he can take Harry. A middleweight contender gets pounded by a journeyman heavyweight.
Harry beat Eb in Eb’s head, as Granny Weatherwax would call it “Headology”same way Harry beat Ethnui, undermined her confidence in her power at exactly the right time. Harry now has a scary reputation, and that affects practitioners going against him. In that respect he is like the Gatekeeper, and whilst EB and the Merlin are his superiors in power, he could take both by playing on their confidence in their abilities. I doubt though he could do it with the Gatekeeper, suspect could teach Granny a thing or two about Headology.
For example taking on Ancient Mai Harry can undermine her confidence by using his worthiness to own a Foo Dog. With Martha Liberty a demonstration of Soul Fire would likely do it.
With the Merlin it’s his political reputation as the key to his confidence, with Eb, his anger and guilt.
-
I mean be real here people, harry didn't beat eb -not really- he tricked him into fighting a hologram made by the winter lady while he got out of dodge.
He won, he knew he didn't stand a chance going one on one with the Blackstaff. He also knew that Eb wasn't himself emotionally and was vulnerable. He didn't want to hurt his grandfather and in truth his grandfather didn't want to hurt or kill his grandson. So Harry coolly came up with a way to win with no one getting hurt.. Harry beat Eb with his brain, it isn't always about who has the most kaboom.
-
He won, he knew he didn't stand a chance going one on one with the Blackstaff. He also knew that Eb wasn't himself emotionally and was vulnerable. He didn't want to hurt his grandfather and in truth his grandfather didn't want to hurt or kill his grandson. So Harry coolly came up with a way to win with no one getting hurt.. Harry beat Eb with his brain, it isn't always about who has the most kaboom.
Exactly, Harry constantly finds himself outmatched in power or experience, but has confidence in his ability to think on his feet, which is being increasing supplemented with forward planning. Harry knows he is going to face off against Carlos and will be prepared for his favourite attack. Even with the Blackstaff Carlos would be an easy easy victory ( use Mother Winters walking stick against her knight? Harry would end up owning the Blackstaff).
The Merlin as I said could be beaten by undermining by him politically, with the Truth about his schemes in relation to Harry, being made public during battle, forcing admissions. The Merlin is a defensive practitioner, so Harry would have the time.
-
He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.
but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.
-
He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.
but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.
He did throw down with Eb and he not only survived it but got Thomas and Lara away safely. More than a draw. Molly created the homuncus for Harry, but that was more of a time issue.
-
He did throw down with Eb and he not only survived it but got Thomas and Lara away safely. More than a draw. Molly created the homuncus for Harry, but that was more of a time issue.
Harry also knew that by asking a favor of Molly she will call him on it at some point. However it was a price he was willing to pay to save Thomas if he could..
-
He 'won' in that the illusion Harry (which was all Molly's work) distracted Eb for long enough that he couldn't/wouldn't chase Harry any more.
but that is not "fighting Eb to a draw" (which is what was said, and is a gross overestimation of Harry's abilities). If Harry had actually tried to throw down with his Grandfather, he'd probably look like crushed raspberries.
Whether or not Molly made the ring is beside the point, Harry knew it was the best way to defeat Eb, because in a physical stand off the odds were in Eb's favor. Also it isn't that Harry couldn't fashion the ring, he just didn't have the time or the materials at hand, but Winter Lady had both at her finger tips. And yes, Eb could make crushed raspberries out of Harry, he knew that and we the readers knew that, so Harry found another way.
-
Harry also knew that by asking a favor of Molly she will call him on it at some point. However it was a price he was willing to pay to save Thomas if he could..
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.
-
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.
She can command him for Winter Duty. A favour may of course fall outside of his duty to Winter. For example something in relation to her family.
-
She can command him for Winter Duty. A favour may of course fall outside of his duty to Winter. For example something in relation to her family.
Which she can have anytime because he's her friend.
-
Which she can have anytime because he's her friend.
Exactly, though if she ever becomes Queen, we can pretty much guess what it would be and what it would cost Harry.
But for example “Hope has gone missing, find her Harry” would fall into the favour category. Her missing sister is none of Winters Business but it is something Harry is superlative at. She may though have used it up already “Harry, tell my parents I am the Winter Lady” unaware they knew all along.
-
That part I never understood. Isn't he hers to command anyway? Looks like Harry got the simulacrum for free.
He now owes her a debt that he can't welsh on, more explicitly she could make him become her lover, or murder and so on.
-
Exactly, though if she ever becomes Queen, we can pretty much guess what it would be and what it would cost Harry.
She won't do that. She wants them to give themselves, not her take it. Taking it is a power play, and not Molly. Too much Molly left.
-
As far as Molly's facour goes, I think it's more limely to come into play when she needs him to obey a command she usually couldn't give- like, say, one that contradicts an order Mab gave him.
-
Debatably also a 3rd was Harry vs. Ariana Ortega. Technically not proper in that the Red King ordered a disadvantageous choice of method to punish her usurpation scheme, instead of having her choose as the challenged party, but still more structured than the one in WN in that it was limited to one means instead of everything-goes.
I don't think Harry's challenge was issued under the Accords; the White Council has no real interest in the little girl, so he has no "standing" (legal cause) to challenge. Neither has the Winter Court.
He was following the Ramps' own internal rules... which have some overlaps with the Unseelie Accords, but aren't entirely the same. There was a bit of insight on this during the "conversation" between the Eebs and Harry, while the others were fighting the Ik at Rudy's house. The bloodthirsty Ramps /absolutely/ recognize blood-right for challenge!
(edit: somehow mis-quoted; apologies to @SnarkKnight for the misattribution)
-
As far as Molly's facour goes, I think it's more limely to come into play when she needs him to obey a command she usually couldn't give- like, say, one that contradicts an order Mab gave him.
No Winter Law would prevent that, both for Harry and Molly UNLESS Molly were to give additional detail to the original order overlooked by Mab initially and she wouldn’t need to use a favour for that. For example Mab orders Harry to find a particular mortal for her, and kill them. Molly modifies it “but you are to use only mortal methods, so as not to draw supernatural attention” in an effort to slow Harry down and give him time to figure out a way around the order e.g. he and Butters stop the mortals heart through mortal means, Butters declares him dead and restarts his heart, Harry passes the living mortal to Mab, pleading his case.
This is the whole point of The Law (aside from introducing Nameless/Cowl, and possibly Max). Those subject to Winter Law ARE subject to it, BUT loopholes exist which Harry can exploit, and that provides narrative points for Jim, especially for future short stories, a new type of self-contained puzzle for Harry to solve where he wins, but leaves Mab deeply annoyed with him for outwitting her by using Winter Law against her for his own ends.
-
Well I mean to be fair Harry played the debt card on Molly first. Harry demanded through his duty to Winter that Winter help the citizens of Chicago due to his actions in the Battle and locking up Ethniu. It allowed Molly to intercede for Winter during Christmas despite triggering and interfering with Kringle's territory. Plus Molly did save Harry's ass when Harry almost publicly told Mab to go screw herself for trying to force Harry into a Marriage with Lara Wraith.
Point being that Harry and Molly are settling into the whole debt dance where they both come out on top and maneuver for the best thing for most people.
-
(Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
She won't do that. She wants them to give themselves, not her take it. Taking it is a power play, and not Molly. Too much Molly left.
“Harry. I need you to be absolutely sure. Once a bargain is done, there’s no going back. And I will hold you to it.” Her expression flickered, for just a second suddenly looking much less sure. “I don’t get a choice about that.”
Butcher, Jim. Peace Talks (Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
My statement isn't about what Molly will do, it's a statement about what Molly could do if she chose to. And Winter Law would keep Harry from saying no.
-
All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
-
All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
[/
No Mab can only order Harry to the extent required by Winter law, it binds her as well as Harry. Mab could not order Harry to wear a hat there, is no requirement to do so under Winter Law. Even the redcap does so voluntarily.
She could however order him to wear Winter livery, that would be part of Winter Law.
-
No difference there. Even if Mab was owed a favor, she could not order him to go against Winter Law. No Winter creature can go against it, not even Harry, and he's just an attaché.
-
Fcrate is correct in this. The Queens can't do favors. There is always a quid pro quo, a price to be paid for anything granted. So Harry incurred an obligation when he got the ring from Molly. Molly has to collect for that obligation. She has no choice in the matter and neither does Harry. That particular coin is stored in her change purse for a time of need.
How that plays out in the plot is anyone's guess. Winter Law is meaningless given that we don't know what Winter Law is, except for the things already revealed.
-
All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
"Favors" aren't at all redundant; they seem to be something like currency among the Fae. And they are bound by faerie Law.
A faerie who does a "favor" is owed a favor in return (the other party is in debt); the faerie who holds a debt is, evidently, obligated to collect that debt (Molly warns Harry about this, before creating the doppelganger-glamour).
But I think the "three favors" between Harry & Mab aren't exactly replaced by the WK Mantle. The Mantle is wholly a thing of Winter Law, but Mab's "favors" might have been anything. Now she is limited to the legalities of the Winterfae, the roles of Queen and Knight. There are a tremendous number of nuances and loopholes in those limitations, but Harry is (gradually) finding his way through them. I think it entirely unlikely Mab would have done very much (if anything) NOT in accord with Winter Law, even with a wide-open "favor" to request; but I think she could have, and that (by virtue of filtering through a mortal) wouldn't have been a violation of Winter Law.
-
I think in Harry's case, Mab did keep moving the goal posts a bit to reach her own goal of having him as her Knight. It is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn't bargain with the Fae.. Harry would do as asked thinking favor two or favor three were wiped off the slate only to have Mab said the favor wasn't because of a detail or two..
-
I think in Harry's case, Mab did keep moving the goal posts a bit to reach her own goal of having him as her Knight. It is a perfect lesson in why you shouldn't bargain with the Fae.. Harry would do as asked thinking favor two or favor three were wiped off the slate only to have Mab said the favor wasn't because of a detail or two..
As Mab had suspected and predicted, she didn't need to have any "favors" from Harry to get him to take the WK Mantle.
She was just using those favors to test (and begin training) her Knight-to-be.
In then end, Harry summoned Mab, and asked to become her Knight.
Much like Marcone's prediction that he would never need to kill Harry, that Harry's own predilections -- for unbending defiance to forces greater than he, disrespecting them to their faces and foolishly fighting to the death -- would get him killed; Mab bet the subtler bet: that before they managed to kill him, he would be faced with forces not even his own foolishness could think he could conquer... and he would realize he needed the Mantle she offered. Mab won the bet (and so did Marcone, for that matter; in the same book!)
-
(Dresden Files) (p. 155). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. My statement isn't about what Molly will do, it's a statement about what Molly could do if she chose to. And Winter Law would keep Harry from saying no.
If she chooses to ..... there's no Molly left. Only the Lady
-
All I'm saying is that their relationship makes favors redundant, be that friendship or work relationship. Remember Mab's offer of canceling the three favors in exchange for his service as a knight? Mab doesn't have to ask Harry for favors, she can order him to do what she wants, and in return she has a specific set of obligations towards him. Same goes for the other two queens.
No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day. That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.
-
No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day. That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.
Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.
-
Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.
Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.
The way jim writes that favour will bite harry in the ass. Harry can the favour to molly the winter lady but she isnt always molly sometimes its just the winter lady. My take is that when she collects, molly wont want to do it but the mantle will force her to. Jim writes with what will pain harry the most.
I can imagine him laughing as harry and molly cry about the favour
-
As Mab had suspected and predicted, she didn't need to have any "favors" from Harry to get him to take the WK Mantle.
She was just using those favors to test (and begin training) her Knight-to-be.
In then end, Harry summoned Mab, and asked to become her Knight.
Yes, she did need those favors, that is why she got them from Lea. Yes, while Mab wanted and perhaps foresaw Harry as her Knight some day, she also knew that if she didn't hold him to the obligation of those favors, he'd have told her to go fish.. Harry wouldn't volunteer to submit to her requests otherwise. Yes, in the end he did summon Mab and asked to become her Knight. Not because she trained him, she did keep pushing him that he'd be her Knight some day, but had nothing to do with his decision. It was simply the least bad option he had to saving his daughter. And let me remind you, he still tried to get out of it, that is why he asked Kincaid to kill him after Maggie was saved and had Molly wipe his memory because he thought that would hide from Mab that he was trying to get out of it once Maggie was safe.
-
No, I think they can order Court business, but not other matters. For example, Molly is really busy, and realizes she forgot to get a present for Michael's birthday tomorrow, she asks Harry if he will do her a favor and pick up tickets for Cubs Opening Day. That isn't the Lady. It's not Court business. It's a favor between friends.
There is no Molly, there is only the Winter Lady. There are no favors, there are only mutual obligations. This is the story that Butcher has wrote. This comes up in the universe when they talk about the Accords. There is no spirit of the Accords, there is only what Mab has decreed.
In my personal canon this is what Butcher means by free will. The ability to act, to pick up a loaf of bread on the way home as an act of friendship without incurring an obligation. Something I believe the Fey can't do. There is always a price.
-
... there's no Molly left. Only the Lady
This is incorrect. It may, eventually, become true.
But for now, there is still a fair bit of Molly in the Winter Lady:
"When I spent time with my parents, my brothers and sisters, I… remembered things. Floods of memories that were attached to the emotions I felt when around my family."
&
Mab's advice to “Let the mortal die. She will not be of use to you.”
Remember Bob telling Harry, "Welcome to the new Maeve, same as the old Maeve." ?
That's not what happened. Instead, we've got: He paused for a moment, staring intently at me with his one eye, his gaze penetrating. When he finally spoke, he spoke slowly and quietly.
“You aren’t much like the last Lady, are you,” he said.
“No,” I replied. “I am not.”
-
Molly has found new depths to the Winter Lady Mantle, The Good People showed that in the overly aggressive gift giving.
The Mantle is changing Molly, but is Molly changing the Mantle? There are restrictions upon the Winter Lady but are there parts of the Mantle which have never been used by any of her predecessors?
There is also the thought that the Mantles may evolve as belief in them does. If so is Molly literally tapping into the belief generated by Frozen?
Molly also has a connection through her father to the White God that is clear from Proven Guilty, if the White God had a hand in making the Mantles, has he been subtly pushing Molly in this direction all along, not the Winter Lady Mab wanted, but the one she needed for this time? Why save Molly if her eventual fate is dire?
-
Yes but under Winter Law that obligation still needs to be discharged.
yes, but my point it is a favor not an order. The Lady orders the Knight, she owes him nothing, it is his job, Molly asks Harry a favor, she owes him one (or one he owed her is now paid up)
-
There is no Molly, there is only the Winter Lady.
Not yet. Even Mab points out she was once mortal. There is not much mortal left in Mab, but a tiny spark exists. Molly is still a candle worth at least. It may die in time. But it may not, either.
-
yes, but my point it is a favor not an order. The Lady orders the Knight, she owes him nothing, it is his job, Molly asks Harry a favor, she owes him one (or one he owed her is now paid up)
But Faerie Law governs "favors." It isn't a Lady/Knight matter of the Mantles, but the Mantles bind them both to Faerie Law. If Harry owes Molly a favor, it doesn't matter to Faerie Law that they are friends; nor even that they are Knight & Lady. The obligations (of Molly collecting on a Favor owed her, and not Harry not cheating on a Favor he owes) is binding upon both of them.
-
Not yet. Even Mab points out she was once mortal. There is not much mortal left in Mab, but a tiny spark exists. Molly is still a candle worth at least. It may die in time. But it may not, either.
Harry's greatest power may be that every entity in the Supernatural that he works with gets more in touch with humanity. Perhaps the greatest ability of a Starborn might be to gather alliances among those that have constraints or only partial free will through association.
-
Harry's greatest power may be that every entity in the Supernatural that he works with gets more in touch with humanity. Perhaps the greatest ability of a Starborn might be to gather alliances among those that have constraints or only partial free will through association.
I agree.
-
Harry's greatest power may be that every entity in the Supernatural that he works with gets more in touch with humanity. Perhaps the greatest ability of a Starborn might be to gather alliances among those that have constraints or only partial free will through association.
Hmmmmmm...
Given that one of the big "benefits" that Nemfection offers to the powerful immortals is that they can violate many of their strictures (e.g. Maeve gloried in being able to overtly lie), which is in many ways a restoration of their lost "free will," ...
...
What if the Starborn is actually an empowerment of/by the Outsiders themselves?
What if becoming a "Destroyer" is actually the normal, natural, & expected state of any Starborn?
It would go a long, long ways toward explaining why so very many of the more-informed wizards &c seem to be expecting the worst of Harry...
-
But Faerie Law governs "favors." It isn't a Lady/Knight matter of the Mantles, but the Mantles bind them both to Faerie Law. If Harry owes Molly a favor, it doesn't matter to Faerie Law that they are friends; nor even that they are Knight & Lady. The obligations (of Molly collecting on a Favor owed her, and not Harry not cheating on a Favor he owes) is binding upon both of them.
They can give a favor away, like Mab giving Harry the gift at Christmas for Little Maggie
-
I think that was a boon rather than a favour because Harry had performed well as Winter Knight that year, if Mab is weakest on the Summer Solstice she is strongest on the Winter. At the height of her power she would reward those of her Court who have performed well over the year, unrelated to Christmas a few days later. Kringle, the Winter Lady, the Red Cap and the Erl King would all have been rewarded with boons for their sterling service in the Battle of Chicago I wonder if Molly’s boon was the gift giving in The Good People? She not only performed well in the Battle but did so much in recruiting and dealing with Maeve’s backlog. The difference would be that you have to ask for it there and then, not hoard it for the future
The flip side there were probably quite a few executions and punishments for those who performed badly over the year. Nameless probably had something nasty gifted to him on the solstice by Mab, perhaps a chamois leather and turtle wax for the cleaning of the entire fleet of Winter vehicles in front of the rest of Winter? With a seething Ms Laplander aiding in a bikini, plotting on new ways to kill Nameless for this new indignity.
I like to kind of think Mab puts real effort and thought into her minor punishments, like in Harry’s recovery.
-
They can give a favor away, like Mab giving Harry the gift at Christmas for Little Maggie
I think this is wholly governed by Winter Law.
They MUST gift at Christmas (and it incurs no debt from the person being gifted-to).
They MUST trade favor-for-favor at other times, demanding high value if they are asked to give high value (n.b. they aren't required to actually give value for value; tricksy fae giving worthless returns on a bargain is one of the tropes (but so is giving startlingly-valuable returns; the fae are unpredictable!)).
I suspect Summer has some similar rules; like... they MUST dance the maypole in May. I'm in the USA, so I don't know all those traditions; I suspect there's (much) more to it than that.
-
Christmas is the White Gods festival the Winter Solstice is Mab’s
Kringle does both.
-
Christmas is the White Gods festival the Winter Solstice is Mab’s
Kringle does both.
That seems like a reasonable POV. There seems to be this Mab/Odin/Uriel triumvirate, makes good sense some playing-around in the myths & Mantles is happening, too...
-
I picture Odin as the go between for Uriel and Mab, a Fae Mantle and Soulfire he is trusted by both. When he stepped down from being a god, this would have meant that instead of one Odin in the Multiverse, there was an Odin for each world as there is a Mab for each world. There is only one Uriel.
Uriel has been working with Mab for a long time, together over HARRY since Grave Peril and Summer Knight. Uriel alerted this worlds Mab to offer Harry the Mantle after this time line was created by Harry’s decision to try to save both Susan and Michael. Kringle was the likely messenger after their once a year luncheon ( which I posit was the 6th December 2001, the first Saints day of St Nicholas after the events of Grave Peril and before the events of Summer Knight, how’s that for specifity?, I am still working on the time of day, but I suspect it was after dessert (Angel Food Cake, naturally)
-
I picture Odin as the go between for Uriel and Mab ...
I don't think they need a "go between" precisely... Uriel can "go" wherever he wants, and Mab can make her own wants known.
They have this HUGE commonality, in the form of resisting Outsiders.
Say rather Odin is a "facilitator" -- some mix of "social lubricant" and "social glue," helping them notice more of what they have in common, chafe less where they differ.
... a Fae Mantle and Soulfire he is trusted by both ...
"Mab" and "Trust" really don't belong in the same sentence, you know...
How about a "translator," fluent in both Soul and Faerie-Mantle?
-
The White Council take death as the first and only option for Warlocks, they seem incapable of putting in the resources to locate young wizards early and their policy of masquerade means that there is no public recognition of the problem.
Realistically, the WC doesn't have the resources to put in. They're incapable of it in the literal sense of the word.
There are only a few thousand Council-level Wizards. Not all of them are psychologically or temperamentally suited for teaching. Of those who are, many of them already have apprentices, potential Council-level Wizards who need a lot of training and a lot of attention.
The vast majority of warlocks are minor Talents. They have power, and learn to use it and abuse it and it devours them. They becomes dangerous threats to the people around them, to their local communities, etc. But they just aren't powerful enough to be major threats to the world on their own.
The kid the Council executed at the start of Proven Guilty, for ex, was very dangerous on an individual level. He was guilty of murder and rape, it was implied incest and other stuff. He could have gone on to kill, maim, etc. a lot more people if not stopped. But he would not likely ever have been a world-level threat.
The apprentices of the Council members, OTOH, are high-end Talents, and they can potentially be global-level threats if they go bad. So the Council has to focus on them first. Whatever resources go to the minor players have to come from what's left over, from cold necessity.
Now the Paranet and related groups might could fill some of the void. They could identify budding Talents, maybe train/restrain the minor ones themselves and pass the major Talents on to the Council, if that setup could be arranged. Maybe what the Council needs is a setup a little like minor league baseball, with groups like the Paranet as associated groups. But it would be tricky to set that up.
But the Paranet is not really qualified to train the high-end Talents themselves. That's why they would need to have an association with the Council to make the project work.
-
Realistically, the WC doesn't have the resources to put in. They're incapable of it in the literal sense of the word.
... Whatever resources go to the minor players have to come from what's left over, from cold necessity.
...
The WC sets itself up as the authority in this area, yet clearly is incapable of exercising that authority in a prompt and effective manner.
I'm pretty sure the WC, as currently constituted, is going to fall.
I suspect this issue is going to be a big part of the reason why it does... and why in fact it should.
... The kid the Council executed at the start of Proven Guilty, for ex, was very dangerous on an individual level ... But he would not likely ever have been a world-level threat ...
I don't think we know that, actually. The Korean kid may have been a Molly-caliber mind mage, or even (potentially) stronger.
(Obviously, Molly became much more powerful with Harry's teaching; the Korean kid never got anything comparable)
... Now the Paranet and related groups might could fill some of the void. They could identify budding Talents, maybe train/restrain the minor ones themselves and pass the major Talents on to the Council, if that setup could be arranged ... But it would be tricky to set that up.
This is my own pet theory; and it's not even very tough to set up! Really, it depends on whether Jim decides to write it...
There's already a link between Elaine Mallory (at the head of the Paranet) and Carlos Ramirez (high in the Warden hierarchy). It'd be very easy to create a channel there for the Paranet to funnel "wizard-level" candidates on up to the WC, if they chose.
Other people have theorized that Harry himself, and his allies, could form the nucleus of an "advanced studies" program for the Paranet's more-powerful talents, without ever involving the WC. Harry could be one instructor, Elaine another. Morty is highly-specialized, but within his specialty is White-Council caliber. He might be able to entice Molly to teach. Etc...
-
I think we are overrating a lot of these warlocks - global level threats? World class? How many of the WC are even world class? They are all below the thousands of WC members. Even Harry says he would be crushed by the Seniors, and I think he said he was in the top 30 or so on raw power. The vast majority of these warlocks are at most a localized threat. They are not the Allied army facing the German Army in 1944, they are some loonie on LSD with a stolen 9 MM.
-
I'm pretty sure the WC, as currently constituted, is going to fall.
I suspect this issue is going to be a big part of the reason why it does... and why in fact it should.
I don't think we know that, actually. The Korean kid may have been a Molly-caliber mind mage, or even (potentially) stronger.
(Obviously, Molly became much more powerful with Harry's teaching; the Korean kid never got anything comparable)
He could have been, but the odds say he wasn't, because Molly-level Talent is rare. Any given warlock, just a matter of odds, is more likely to be a local menace than a major threat to the world.
As for a Council/Parenet larger alliance, it's tough to set up because the Council is set in their ways and don't trust Harry and his associates, and the plan won't work without the Council involved.
Other people have theorized that Harry himself, and his allies, could form the nucleus of an "advanced studies" program for the Paranet's more-powerful talents, without ever involving the WC.
No, they can't. Or at least, they can't on any useful scale.
Training the Council-level Talents is a full-time task. Harry could train maybe one or two at a time, Elaine maybe one or two at a time, Molly one or two at a time if she could get free of Winter. Harry doesn't have many other allies who are powerful enough and skilled enough (and who have the right mindset for it, which is very important) to train high-end Talents.
Trying to train more than a handful at a time is a good way to end up with a major-league warlock, or a trainee who isn't up to the Council level because of sloppy training.
The world probably only produces a few hundred potential Council-level Talents a generation, but that's still way more than Harry and his allies could possibly train (and restrain) on their own, even if they could identify and reach them all.
Harry could be one instructor, Elaine another. Morty is highly-specialized, but within his specialty is White-Council caliber. He might be able to entice Molly to teach. Etc...
Nope. Mort is highly specialized, and that's just not good enough. A dozen minor Talents don't add up to a Wizard, even if they're all as good as a Wizard in some specialty. There's also the social and political elements to consider, too.
And then there's the nasty part, which is inescapable. Even with good training, some of the high-end Talents will still end up going bad. Some Talents might need to face the carrot and the stick both to be persuaded to stay and the strait-and-narrow, or even to accept the training from the teachers. When that happens, somebody has to be the heavy and enforce the rules, or kill the new warlocks.
Which means you still need the Council and the Wardens. If the Council falls and the Paranet rises to take its place, to do that job they more or less have to become the Council...which they cannot. They are minor Talents, they just aren't powerful enough to take the Council's place. Whatever took the place of the Council would have to gather in the majority of the Wizards and the more they did what they had to do, the more they would start to look like...the White Council.
If the Council falls, its replacement has to be more or less the Council 2.0 or something along those lines. The Parenet just can't do it.
-
I think we are overrating a lot of these warlocks - global level threats? World class? How many of the WC are even world class? They are all below the thousands of WC members. Even Harry says he would be crushed by the Seniors, and I think he said he was in the top 30 or so on raw power. The vast majority of these warlocks are at most a localized threat. They are not the Allied army facing the German Army in 1944, they are some loonie on LSD with a stolen 9 MM.
Exactly. A few of them are worse than that, the equivalent of a major gang leader or the like, a very few of them can be major problems, but still nothing the Council couldn't crush easily if it became necessary.
The Kemmlers are rare, few, and far between.
Though probably any Council-level Talent is a potential world threat, with the right knowledge and experience. That's part of what makes them Council-level Talents.
-
... Any given warlock, just a matter of odds, is more likely to be a local menace than a major threat to the world ...
True enough; but this wasn't just "any given warlock."
This was the warlock hand picked by the Merlin to rub in Harry's face. I'd put long odds on him being one of the stronger Warlocks they had captured in several years; so if Harry raised too big a stink ... they can prove the kid in fact was a major threat who needed to be put down.
-
No, they can't. Or at least, they can't on any useful scale.
Training the Council-level Talents is a full-time task. Harry could train maybe one or two at a time, Elaine maybe one or two at a time, Molly one or two at a time if she could get free of Winter. Harry doesn't have many other allies who are powerful enough and skilled enough (and who have the right mindset for it, which is very important) to train high-end Talents.
Trying to train more than a handful at a time is a good way to end up with a major-league warlock, or a trainee who isn't up to the Council level because of sloppy training.
The world probably only produces a few hundred potential Council-level Talents a generation, but that's still way more than Harry and his allies could possibly train (and restrain) on their own, even if they could identify and reach them all ...
Justin thought he could teach 2 at a time; and we don't really know the upper limit.
The Craftmaster/Apprentice model is usually thought of as 1:1 or at most 1:few, but the "vocational school" model shows it doesn't have to be that way, and the WC's "baby warden school" in the desert showed that more-modern "team teaching" methods can get better than a 2:1 student:teacher ratio (though I don't think we have a precise number).
"A few hundred a generation" (call it 400 for an estimate (mainly because the numbers work very-cleanly) is only an annual class-size of about 20 per year; but that's worldwide (and as you note, they will miss some).
Still, it's probably more than Harry/Paranet/etc can handle, but I think -- after a few years -- they'd begin making a substantial reduction in the number of warlocks who cropped up each year; and as they produced trained people, they'd have more and more who could do the work of teaching.
Nope. Mort is highly specialized, and that's just not good enough. A dozen minor Talents don't add up to a Wizard, even if they're all as good as a Wizard in some specialty.
Molly is also specialized, though less-so than Mort.
Mort, however, is a world-caliber power... despite his narrow specialty, he's not a "minor" talent.
Mort took down Capiorcorpus.
Harry tried.
Molly tried.
Mort did it.
Mort may not be any use teaching wizards to manipulate the forces of the elements; but if any of them have ectomantic/necromantic abilities, Mort is likely a better teacher than anyone on the White Council. Harry himself could use those lessons, I think: he's got a fair bit of native talent in that direction, but little-to-no training; so he's not well-equipped to avoid any well-known (within the field) screw-up modes, that an experienced teacher could point out.
Harry might also be able to recruit River Shoulders, for some wilderness lessons; Listens to Wind respects RS enough that he might then join.
Harry might induce Rashid to teach on the dangers of Outsiders (I'm pretty sure the Gatekeeper considers that job (the Gatekeeper) more important than the entire rest of the White Council, and would keep mum about teaching anti-Outsider lessons to non-WC wizards).
Etc.
It wouldn't be perfect -- far from it!
But Harry & allies & the Paranet -- making a concerted effort -- would already be doing more good the entire White Council.
-
True enough; but this wasn't just "any given warlock."
This was the warlock hand picked by the Merlin to rub in Harry's face.
I doubt that very seriously. He was a Chicago area warlock who had been captured, after doing a lot of nasty local damage, Harry was there because he was the Warden of Chicago. I don't think there was any 'hand picking' going on.
-
Justin thought he could teach 2 at a time; and we don't really know the upper limit.
As I said, Harry and Elaine could probably each manage 2. Three at once, maybe, but that would be pushing it. It takes years to properly train a Council-level Talent, and do it right, and it takes a lot of attention. This would be especially true in the case of Talents who had either already started to go wrong, or who had the native personality to be difficult.
The more apprentices you try to train at once, the less attention each one can get, the less personalized the training can be, and the more chance of something important slipping through the cracks.
The Craftmaster/Apprentice model is usually thought of as 1:1 or at most 1:few, but the "vocational school" model shows it doesn't have to be that way, and the WC's "baby warden school" in the desert showed that more-modern "team teaching" methods can get better than a 2:1 student:teacher ratio (though I don't think we have a precise number).
The vocational school model doesn't work for Wizard training. There isn't just a set specific body of skills that have to be taught, at that level each student has their own requirements and has to be taught individually. It's also about philosophies, attitudes, the moral aspects of magic, proper habits of thought and necessary self-discipline. It's about the master recognizing the particular weaknesses and strengths of the student, it can't be entire standardized. What worked for teaching Molly would fail teaching someone else, and vice versa. What worked well for Harry would not have worked well for Elaine, and vice versa, because of their different personalities and native strengths and weaknesses.
I'm sure you could teach some of the basics in a group-class setting, but as soon as you started getting into the high-end stuff that model would fail.
The baby warden school was just that, all they were doing was trying to accelerate specific Warden training, not the overall training to make a Council wizard. And even there, it wasn't doing as good a job as they would have liked, it was just necessitated by the war emergency.
"A few hundred a generation" (call it 400 for an estimate (mainly because the numbers work very-cleanly) is only an annual class-size of about 20 per year; but that's worldwide (and as you note, they will miss some).
But even if you assume just 20 a year, you still need at least 7 full Wizards to teach them, assuming 3 per master, 10 Wizards if it's 2 per master. Some of those students will be hard cases who absolutely need the full 100% attention of a master, which makes it worse. Harry does not have even 7 full Council level Wizards to do the teaching. In practice, to teach 20 students would probably realistically need at least 10 Wizards to master them.
And that's just the first year. A year later you get another 20, but the Wizards from last year are still teaching the first round of students, Harry now needs 10 more Wizards. Let's be conservative/hopeful and say three years can turn a new student into a Wizard. (I suspect it usually takes longer, but let's be optimistic.) That means you need thirty full Wizards, with the right mindset and skills for teaching, to get 20 students a year through the process. In the fourth year the first round of students 'graduate' and the first ten masters can take 2 new students each.
So Harry needs, at a realistic minimum, 30 skilled Wizards to teach 20 students a year for 3 years a student. That's not ideal, that's minimum, ideally he would want twice that many to really do it right.
Plus he still needs the equivalent of a force of Wardens to be the enforcers, too. That's separate of the teaching staff.
Molly is also specialized, though less-so than Mort.
Molly has specific talents, yes. So does Harry and any practitioner. She's still a full Council-level talent and has vast potentials Mort will never equal, outside his one narrow specialty.
Mort, however, is a world-caliber power... despite his narrow specialty, he's not a "minor" talent.
No, he's a major-level sub-Council talent. His abilities by themselves are not sufficient to make him a world-level player.
Mort took down Capiorcorpus.
Harry tried.
Molly tried.
Mort did it.
No doubt. It doesn't matter. That fact that he's better than they are in that one narrow area doesn't make up for their vast superiority at the other 95%. I'm sure Binder is better than Harry at his one specialty, too. Victor Sells could probably teach Harry a few things about sex magic. That doesn't make Victor a peer of Harry.
Etc.
It wouldn't be perfect -- far from it!
But Harry & allies & the Paranet -- making a concerted effort -- would already be doing more good the entire White Council.
Um...no. The Council is still doing vastly more good at a large scale than they could do.
We see the Council's negative side because we see it through Harry's eyes. His first encounter with them was them putting him on trial for his life for defending himself. He hates the very idea of executing children for breaking rules they didn't even know about. He hates the Council's elitist tendency, even as he recognizes the necessity of it. He really really hates the Council's hypocrisy.
BUT...over the years Harry has reluctantly been forced to admit that a lot of the stuff he hates is necessary. Also, the Council and the Church are the two main factors that have enabled civilization to rise as high as it has in the last few centuries. The Council is the main reason why the average mundane doesn't believe in supernatural monsters anymore: the Council has imprisoned/destroyed most of the worst of them, and forces the rest to keep their heads down most of the time. The Council is the main force that kept the Red Court, the White Court, and some degree the Black Court from running unchecked. The Enlightenment was a Council project that got somewhat out of hand.
Plus, of course, Kemmler.
Even Karrin had to admit, in a backhanded, resentful compliment, that the Council were running themselves ragged keeping the world from blowing up in the instability that followed the fall of the Red Court.
As frustrating and hidebound and hypocritical as the White Council is, the world of Dresden would be a far, far worse place without them.
-
As I said, Harry and Elaine could probably each manage 2. Three at once, maybe, but that would be pushing it. It takes years to properly train a Council-level Talent, and do it right, and it takes a lot of attention. This would be especially true in the case of Talents who had either already started to go wrong, or who had the native personality to be difficult.
The more apprentices you try to train at once, the less attention each one can get, the less personalized the training can be, and the more chance of something important slipping through the cracks.
The vocational school model doesn't work for Wizard training. There isn't just a set specific body of skills that have to be taught, at that level each student has their own requirements and has to be taught individually. It's also about philosophies, attitudes, the moral aspects of magic, proper habits of thought and necessary self-discipline. It's about the master recognizing the particular weaknesses and strengths of the student, it can't be entire standardized. What worked for teaching Molly would fail teaching someone else, and vice versa. What worked well for Harry would not have worked well for Elaine, and vice versa, because of their different personalities and native strengths and weaknesses.
I'm sure you could teach some of the basics in a group-class setting, but as soon as you started getting into the high-end stuff that model would fail.
The baby warden school was just that, all they were doing was trying to accelerate specific Warden training, not the overall training to make a Council wizard. And even there, it wasn't doing as good a job as they would have liked, it was just necessitated by the war emergency.
But even if you assume just 20 a year, you still need at least 7 full Wizards to teach them, assuming 3 per master, 10 Wizards if it's 2 per master. Some of those students will be hard cases who absolutely need the full 100% attention of a master, which makes it worse. Harry does not have even 7 full Council level Wizards to do the teaching. In practice, to teach 20 students would probably realistically need at least 10 Wizards to master them.
And that's just the first year. A year later you get another 20, but the Wizards from last year are still teaching the first round of students, Harry now needs 10 more Wizards. Let's be conservative/hopeful and say three years can turn a new student into a Wizard. (I suspect it usually takes longer, but let's be optimistic.) That means you need thirty full Wizards, with the right mindset and skills for teaching, to get 20 students a year through the process. In the fourth year the first round of students 'graduate' and the first ten masters can take 2 new students each.
So Harry needs, at a realistic minimum, 30 skilled Wizards to teach 20 students a year for 3 years a student. That's not ideal, that's minimum, ideally he would want twice that many to really do it right.
Plus he still needs the equivalent of a force of Wardens to be the enforcers, too. That's separate of the teaching staff.
Molly has specific talents, yes. So does Harry and any practitioner. She's still a full Council-level talent and has vast potentials Mort will never equal, outside his one narrow specialty.
No, he's a major-level sub-Council talent. His abilities by themselves are not sufficient to make him a world-level player.
No doubt. It doesn't matter. That fact that he's better than they are in that one narrow area doesn't make up for their vast superiority at the other 95%. I'm sure Binder is better than Harry at his one specialty, too. Victor Sells could probably teach Harry a few things about sex magic. That doesn't make Victor a peer of Harry.
Um...no. The Council is still doing vastly more good at a large scale than they could do.
We see the Council's negative side because we see it through Harry's eyes. His first encounter with them was them putting him on trial for his life for defending himself. He hates the very idea of executing children for breaking rules they didn't even know about. He hates the Council's elitist tendency, even as he recognizes the necessity of it. He really really hates the Council's hypocrisy.
BUT...over the years Harry has reluctantly been forced to admit that a lot of the stuff he hates is necessary. Also, the Council and the Church are the two main factors that have enabled civilization to rise as high as it has in the last few centuries. The Council is the main reason why the average mundane doesn't believe in supernatural monsters anymore: the Council has imprisoned/destroyed most of the worst of them, and forces the rest to keep their heads down most of the time. The Council is the main force that kept the Red Court, the White Court, and some degree the Black Court from running unchecked. The Enlightenment was a Council project that got somewhat out of hand.
Plus, of course, Kemmler.
Even Karrin had to admit, in a backhanded, resentful compliment, that the Council were running themselves ragged keeping the world from blowing up in the instability that followed the fall of the Red Court.
As frustrating and hidebound and hypocritical as the White Council is, the world of Dresden would be a far, far worse place without them.
True. The world is a better place with them
A real world problem with revolution that remove government or power block such as WC is what will u replace them with. A lot of times it a case of meet the new boss same as the old one. If the WC falls the world will be a darker place. Until it is replaced. Think league of nations and UN. One was an incompetent organization that failed at preventing Ww2. The other is a slightly more competent organization that has failed to prevent small wars but succeeded at preventing WW3
-
Mort is WC power level but his talents run deep in areas which the WC are unhappy to be plumbed, and probably more powerful in summoning spirits than even perhaps Martha Liberty. He lacks experience and training in other areas of magic. He has been shown to be able to channel ghosts (Bruce Lee) so there is no reason he cannot channel the ghost of a trained Wizard, especially one he was already acquainted with. Morgan springs to mind. You therefore have options for a two in one teacher with Mort, a teacher capable of blending the best of WC teaching and his own unique experiences and skills as The Ectomancer. Raise an entire generation of Wizards without the prejudices of field.
The problem the WC has is that they consider that only Wizards can teach Wizards, they would frown on a ghost teaching, as much as a non human magic user like River Shoulders teaching Wizards. Why not have Swartalves teach the magic equivalent of “shop” or River Shoulders teach “Nature Studies” as a visiting lecturer?
Butters has a better innate grasp of magic theory than most Wizards and he can teach together with Bob on a wide variety of subjects.
The traditional Master/Apprentice system has allowed the WC to control all Wizardry. It is a poor model for today.
Look at how Eb trained Harry, very little formal teaching. Harry in training Molly insisted she finish High School, his lessons were ‘extra’ so training isn’t as intense as people think, a lot of it is social inculcation, to make Whire Council wizards rather than Wizards.
-
Training young wizards would be more a school for the Arts rather than a vocational school.
Perhaps the solution would be one or two years of fundamentals and Laws of Magic with a core of permanent faculty and weekly guest speakers. If the students pass this basic assessment then they could be split into their specialties and learn from teachers who are experts in them. That will increase the teacher pool because the students will be assisting rather than taking away from their private interests.
-
Young wizards need to learn with non-human practitioners, lesser practitioners and mortals. The latter like Butters can still have important input and interaction with the magical community. Wizards are way too insular and poorly socialised,
We may have seen the set up for this already.
For example The Law shows us that there are multiple magical legal systems which are increasingly going to have to interact with mortal legal systems. We have seen The Accords, The Code Duello, the Seven Laws, Winter Law, Guest Right etc, more than enough for a law student to elect to take a course on Supernatural Law in the same way they would Conflict of Laws or international Law, and something a Wizard would need to take. The FBI only take graduates, this would be useful for a lesser practitioner interested in law enforcement, or for legal practitioners looking at representing supernatural clients. Give Nameless a run for his money.
I could easily see a class given by Max Valorius comprising law and magic Students, he is after all a former law lecturer and has defeated the top supernatural lawyer Nameless in both of their head to heads. Thirds times the charm.
We also have Irwin Pounder undertaking his Phd and acting as an English teacher in Job placement. I can see a future Professor Pounder teaching a course on The Supernatural in English Literature which would attract both English students and Magical students. His mother is already an University of Chicago academic, a Professor of Archaeology.
This presupposes the creation of a School of Magic as part of the University of Chicago, with Wizards majoring in Magic and a minor in other matters so they interact with other people. Do that and you will have young Fae, Swartalves, Open White Court Vampires also in class.
I really want to see Lacuna enrol in the school of Medicine and Dentistry. It would be an education. For both of them.
-
... The vocational school model doesn't work for Wizard training ... I'm sure you could teach some of the basics in a group-class setting ...
You may be right. But that sort of thing still gives you a huge leg up in total hours needed from a teacher.
Remember -- Harry started Molly's lessons as weekend-only (plus some homework). Presumably, he could have managed *three* apprentices with that level of time-commitment (and shared another apprentice with another teaching-wizard, if he took no days off).
Undoubtedly, he'd need to put in more time, eventually.
But the traditional (Master/Prentice) relationship is not the only viable way.
-
You may be right. But that sort of thing still gives you a huge leg up in total hours needed from a teacher.
Remember -- Harry started Molly's lessons as weekend-only (plus some homework). Presumably, he could have managed *three* apprentices with that level of time-commitment (and shared another apprentice with another teaching-wizard, if he took no days off).
Undoubtedly, he'd need to put in more time, eventually.
But the traditional (Master/Prentice) relationship is not the only viable way.
I think it is you are overlooking something. In an apprenticeship the master has to guard , support their students sure, but in wizards relationship the master has to cater to the students unique needs. If the master overlooks the student you have a half trained wizard who is likely to go warlock.
The other beings training wizards might not be a solution. Some of this things dont adhere to our moral code. Lea's training of molly was not healthy. River shoulders may work but what will his people say. Will they accept their secrets being given to mortals.
Other beings may want payment. Supernatural beings dont do things for free. What will the price be. Remember the price always comes due
-
I think we can safely rule ou on line learning.
-
I think we can safely rule ou on line learning.
Wait it could work
Imagine harry shouting instruction to paranoid gary who passes it on to a friend/sibling or parent who shouts it to their kid. Great game of broken telephone
-
I doubt that very seriously. He was a Chicago area warlock who had been captured, after doing a lot of nasty local damage, Harry was there because he was the Warden of Chicago. I don't think there was any 'hand picking' going on.
I'm pretty sure he was from Korea, and the Merlin had him brought to Chicago specifically as a message to Harry.
In the opening scene of PG, the boy "screamed and ranted in Korean" (presumably, his native tongue).
In the middle of chapter 2, Harry asks Eb, "Is that why it happened here? Why come to Chicago for an execution?"
If the kid had simply been a local, that wouldn't have been relevant; a Chicago-origin warlock in Chicago wouldn't have been worth asking about.
In Chapter 5 -- talking to Murphy -- Harry explicitly calls him "the Korean kid."
-
I'm pretty sure he was from Korea, and the Merlin had him brought to Chicago specifically as a message to Harry.
In the opening scene of PG, the boy "screamed and ranted in Korean" (presumably, his native tongue).
In the middle of chapter 2, Harry asks Eb, "Is that why it happened here? Why come to Chicago for an execution?"
If the kid had simply been a local, that wouldn't have been relevant; a Chicago-origin warlock in Chicago wouldn't have been worth asking about.
In Chapter 5 -- talking to Murphy -- Harry explicitly calls him "the Korean kid."
Every city has immigrants who speak mostly their mother tongue. Walk one block along Northern Blvd. any afternoon in Flushing, NYC - you will hear Korean. Guaranteed. Signs up in Korean. Walk along Mott St. in Manhattan. Plenty of Chinese being spoken. Don't call it Lower East Side, you call it Chinatown.
Even if he is from Chicago, if the kid is raving in Korean, and looks Korean - is it odd Harry would refer to him as such, likely thinking him an immigrant?
-
Harry was the only Warden who refused to execute kids, of course it was a message to Harry.
-
Every city has immigrants who speak mostly their mother tongue. Walk one block along Northern Blvd. any afternoon in Flushing, NYC - you will hear Korean. Guaranteed. Signs up in Korean. Walk along Mott St. in Manhattan. Plenty of Chinese being spoken. Don't call it Lower East Side, you call it Chinatown.
Even if he is from Chicago, if the kid is raving in Korean, and looks Korean - is it odd Harry would refer to him as such, likely thinking him an immigrant?
The language is FAR from decisive, it's true.
But Harry *IS* Chicago's resident Warden. I'm pretty sure he'd know if the kid was a local. And the exchange in Chapter two strongly implies that Harry thinks (and Eb confirms) that the shitshow was brought to Chicago for Harry's sake.
I mean... sure, he could have been an immigrant kid. London resident, or Capetown, or Sydney, or anywhere at all.
But if he's NOT from Chicago, Jim wrote that to intentionally mislead.
-
Yeah. I thought the Merlin scheduled the execution as a reminder to harry that this could have been him and can still be him
-
Yeah. I thought the Merlin scheduled the execution as a reminder to harry that this could have been him and can still be him
Agreed
-
The language is FAR from decisive, it's true.
But Harry *IS* Chicago's resident Warden. I'm pretty sure he'd know if the kid was a local. And the exchange in Chapter two strongly implies that Harry thinks (and Eb confirms) that the shitshow was brought to Chicago for Harry's sake.
There are millions in the Chicago area. He's not going to know everyone.
It would be just the Merlin's style to make a spectacle over the event since the kid was from Chicago and make Harry go. Harry's seen the reports and other stuff, i have to imagine if the kid was not FROM Chicago that he would say something, asking why he is executed here, instead of where the crimes were, or maybe Edinburgh. Then again, headless bodies likely create less fuss in Chicago than most places. Most warlocks are likely investigated and convicted in chambers without them even knowing they were tried, and the Warden sent out to give them a short haircut. Likely explain it as gang warfare. Ms-13?
-
There are millions in the Chicago area. He's not going to know everyone.
But he's going to know about Warden business in Chicago.
Even if it comes in secretly, because "squeamish Warden Dresden only kills older warlocks," they (the Merlin) will want to rub his nose in the fact that Harry's making other people do the dirty-work Harry cannot stomach (even though he admits the necessity of it). By the time of the trial & execution, Harry will have learned the kid was from Chicago (if he was).
... i have to imagine if the kid was not FROM Chicago that he would say something, asking why he is executed here ...
Harry pretty much does say that he had wondered (and then figured out for himself), in his conversation with Eb (who pretty much confirms Harry's suspicions).
... asking why he is executed here, instead of where the crimes were, or maybe Edinburgh ...
I think the Warden in charge of the capture has a lot of leeway in this.
Morgan was largely a lapdog of Langtry at this point (increasingly clinging to the hardline approach), so if the Merlin wanted it done in Chicago, Morgan would have done it that way. I'm sure an ample number of Wardens would have been similarly "respectful" of the Merlin's wishes... :-X
-
No matter where the kid was from the trial itself is meant to cause the reaction it did, it primed Harry to react emotionally when Molly is eventually found out. With this plotting. Peabody picked the site to get Harry in the mood. The kid could be from anywhere. Korea is exotic. What he supplied was a gory death. This was the picture that Harry is meant to have in his minds eye when Molly is discovered, her with no head.
-
No matter where the kid was from the trial itself is meant to cause the reaction it did, it primed Harry to react emotionally when Molly is eventually found out. With this plotting. Peabody picked the site to get Harry in the mood. The kid could be from anywhere. Korea is exotic. What he supplied was a gory death. This was the picture that Harry is meant to have in his minds eye when Molly is discovered, her with no head.
I think Harry would have been primed in any case to react emotionally to Molly's plight. After all he does remember when his own head was on the line. It did however prime the reader.
-
But he's going to know about Warden business in Chicago.
Yeah, cutting the regional commander out of the loop on an investigate and apprehend on his turf ... that's not going to be standard procedure, and the Council loves standard procedures.
Heavy odds on they just dragged the kid there from somewhere else. Location to assemble for a trial is NBD when anywhere is half an hour away by Ways.
-
... Peabody picked the site to get Harry in the mood ...
Eb says the Merlin picked it (for reasons that seemed clear); but yeah, Peabody could have given that a nudge in the right direction. Probably would have been easy, all things considered!
-
Eb says the Merlin picked it (for reasons that seemed clear); but yeah, Peabody could have given that a nudge in the right direction. Probably would have been easy, all things considered!
The only reason I like it is that is helps explain Madrigal, other than that it doesn't really matter.
-
... Location to assemble for a trial is NBD when anywhere is half an hour away by Ways.
As noted in the scene, Chicago's "major travel nexus" status means it's an easy place for scattered Council-members (plus the Warden-team with the captive) to all convene. More so than most other places. That was the nominal "excuse" to bring the execution to Harry's baliwick.
-
Chicago also has major bases for the White Court, both Faerie Courts, the Swartalves etc, so The Merlin is making a wider point “we deal with our own, ruthlessly”
-
Saw an interesting post on one of the fb groups that part of the reason why the WC members hate harry is the favouritism shown to him.
Can't remember the og post and poster. So i will
Just list some of the thinks i think may cause people to hate him.
1) instead of killing him, eb served him becoz he mentored his mother. 2) he advertises himself in the media 3) he started a war with the red council (sure it wasn't his fault but theh don't know that) 4 he's anti social. Harry doesn't attend council meetings unless forced. 5) he doesn't get that hes guven special treatment. How many young wizards are in contact with SC members to the extent harry is
-
Saw an interesting post on one of the fb groups that part of the reason why the WC members hate harry is the favouritism shown to him.
Can't remember the og post and poster. So i will
Just list some of the thinks i think may cause people to hate him.
1) instead of killing him, eb served him becoz he mentored his mother. 2) he advertises himself in the media 3) he started a war with the red council (sure it wasn't his fault but theh don't know that) 4 he's anti social. Harry doesn't attend council meetings unless forced. 5) he doesn't get that hes guven special treatment. How many young wizards are in contact with SC members to the extent harry is
I'd say to assess at least some of these we have to know more of what the average WC knows.
1) Yes, he killed Justin, but I see at least 3 (may be more) ways to look at it:
a) He killed. He's a warlock. Die!
b) WTF? A KID took out a WARDEN? How? What are we dealing with? (see the reaction of the wardens on Demonreach when they are asked to arrest him)
c) That warden summoned a freaking WALKER, an OUTSIDER. HE deserved to die. Putting him with the Blackstaff, we can kill him if we need to, but it may be he was ill-treated by the WC as well. Plus, said Warden was doing mind control on the presumed missing and presumed dead Elaine. I'm thinking the WC has not connected the Elaine with Justin to the Elaine in the phone book. Why would Justin enthrall a small timer?
2) I doubt most know or care. They will assume he is considered a charlatan.
3) I think he was poorly thought of even before that. If it was just this ... his opinion might rise when he WON the war and eradicated the Reds.
4) I think attendance of more than a few are spotty at best. The main council chamber holds, what, a third of them? When they were filling Simon's SC spot and calling roll, more than a couple of the older ones, the more powerful ones you would expect to be there, knowing their name will arise, are missing. Wizards go their own way.
5) A few do get SC contact. Ramirez. Chandler. Also, remember Harry is a regional commander for the Wardens, he's not some scrub. Connection to Eb, well, that's his old master, so it doesn't count. Also started before Eb was SC. Injun Joe is Eb's buddy. He doesn't see Joe much without Eb there. He doesn't see Mai, or Martha Liberty. No indication he ever saw Simon, or Christos until the Battle of Chicago - he had to ask who he was. The Merlin is always as the Merlin, at court. He did see him when the manhunt was on - but he's also a PI - it looks like a professional consult. And the Gatekeeper... I think they all RESPECT the Gatekeeper, but even the Merlin seems to defer to him at times.... I think they let him do as he pleases, don't try to figure out why, and NEVER ask.
-
... Plus, said Warden was doing mind control on the presumed missing and presumed dead Elaine. I'm thinking the WC has not connected the Elaine with Justin to the Elaine in the phone book ...
I don't think the WC knows Justin had any other 'prentice than Harry; they only learned of Harry himself after Justin died.
Elaine's presence there was utterly unknown.
Remember -- Justin had turned heavily into Black magic: mind-control, Outsider-summoning, and we don't know what else. I don't think he had *ANY* contact with the WC, because it would have been too easy for "sensitives" among them to notice this sort of thing.
-
Part of me thinks that that Justin could have been working with Peabody (and others) while working with the SC. Realizing that Justin had gone to the darkside may explain why the SC hates/ is afraid of Harry. They left their WMD with the wrong guy who knows what protocols Justin left in Harry.
-
Part of me thinks that that Justin could have been working with Peabody (and others) while working with the SC. Realizing that Justin had gone to the darkside may explain why the SC hates/ is afraid of Harry. They left their WMD with the wrong guy who knows what protocols Justin left in Harry.
I think it likely that Justin was "Black Council," yes.
But they rooted-out all of Peabody's work; I presume they checked Harry, and would have been satisfied there were no "protocols" in place.
I disagree that the White Council was onboard with the "Starborn Plan," however. They're too staid & conservative, that plan is too extreme/apocalyptic.
Eb would likely have been aware if Justin were assigned Harry's tutelage, and insisted on taking on the role himself. Morgan moved quickly to get Harry, but Justin moved faster, and Morgan was unable to track them... again, this speaks to it NOT being a White Council move.
I strongly suspect that (at least) one individual Senior Council member was involved and/or sympathetic to the plan; but acted in secret, as (an) independent wizard(s); NOT as agent(s) of the White Council.
-
I don't think the WC knows Justin had any other 'prentice than Harry; they only learned of Harry himself after Justin died.
Elaine's presence there was utterly unknown.
Remember -- Justin had turned heavily into Black magic: mind-control, Outsider-summoning, and we don't know what else. I don't think he had *ANY* contact with the WC, because it would have been too easy for "sensitives" among them to notice this sort of thing.
I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies..... hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.
But they rooted-out all of Peabody's work; I presume they checked Harry, and would have been satisfied there were no "protocols" in place.
Not sure on that. Harry likely does not give permission, and going in unapproved is a naughty.
-
I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies..... hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.
I think Justin went pretty deep into hiding / flying under the radar.
Eb & Morgan (at least) knew about Harry... but I think they lost him when Malcolm Dresden died, and Justin swooped in.
Justin had been a well-known Warden. But I think he was laying plans, doing some groundwork; I think he had retired from being an active Warden, and largely from active White Council activities.
He had created a secret "lair" for himself, a bolt-hole where he would take Harry (and Elaine), and live entirely without WhiteCouncil oversight or awareness.
-
I think Justin went pretty deep into hiding / flying under the radar.
Eb & Morgan (at least) knew about Harry... but I think they lost him when Malcolm Dresden died, and Justin swooped in.
Justin had been a well-known Warden. But I think he was laying plans, doing some groundwork; I think he had retired from being an active Warden, and largely from active White Council activities.
He had created a secret "lair" for himself, a bolt-hole where he would take Harry (and Elaine), and live entirely without WhiteCouncil oversight or awareness.
Or he was hiding in plain site. In other words when he retired from being a Warden, no one knew he was already going dark. The biggest example of that is when they took down Kemmler, he stole for himself the skull that ultimately became Bob. The skull that was supposed to be destroyed and the entity within it that had a lot of dark information. Yet, nobody ever suspected that it was one of their own Wardens that took him. Because of his immaculate reputation Justin could quietly live, making his plans, and even attend White Council meetings and no one would be the wiser. While the White Council can be paranoid, they also lack imagination..
-
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea. When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.
-
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea. When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.
Yes, but a warlock like Justin with the help of Kemmler Bob might also have shielded both Harry and Elaine from White Council Warden notice.. Also unless Morgan had a sample of Harry's hair,etc, which is doubtful, he wouldn't have been able to track him.
-
Justin was being shielded, probably by Lea. When Butcher rewrote canon for Morgan he explicitly says he couldn't find Harry by magical means which means he was looking.
Say rather that Harry was being shielded by Lea. Because of that Morgan didn't find him or Justin or Elaine because that isn't who he was looking for.
-
Morgan said Justin got to Harry before he did. Either Harry or Justin could have been the target of the search. Find one and find the other.
-
Morgan was searching for Harry though. He didn't search for Justin that we know of.
-
Morgan was searching for Harry though. He didn't search for Justin that we know of.
Agreed. Morgan had no way of knowing that Justin had Harry, if he had, Harry wouldn't have spent the next five years as Justin's adopted son. One interesting point I think, how soon after Malcolm's death did Morgan begin to look for Harry? Who ever took young Harry to social services must have made sure that there were no physical traces of the child left behind that could be magically tracked. Hmmm.. All makes sense when you think of it for a murder/kidnapping conspiracy... Only that too would have been overlooked because who'd suspect the state of kidnapping?
-
Agreed. Morgan had no way of knowing that Justin had Harry, if he had, Harry wouldn't have spent the next five years as Justin's adopted son. One interesting point I think, how soon after Malcolm's death did Morgan begin to look for Harry? Who ever took young Harry to social services must have made sure that there were no physical traces of the child left behind that could be magically tracked. Hmmm.. All makes sense when you think of it for a murder/kidnapping conspiracy... Only that too would have been overlooked because who'd suspect the state of kidnapping?
Malcolm was a traveling magician. He could well have passed in a motel room on the road, with who knows how many people in and out of it. Frequently cleanings, Harry might have been in there one night. How many people may have been in there after Malcolm died before Morgan learned of it?
-
I dunno.. the paranoiacs there might have spies on their spies..... hard to believe that NONE of the WC knew about Harry. Even Eb? I bet at least some of the seniors knew, or Luccio, as Justin had been a warden. He wasn't a low profile guy in the crowd.
Not sure on that. Harry likely does not give permission, and going in unapproved is a naughty.
I dont think they was a need to check harry cause he never came to the HQ and when he did he never signed a thing. Hence Lucio.
Was having a talk with a friend about the Merlin. Other than the mist fiend and the ward tag team with the gatekeeper has the Merlin done any magic on screen/ on page
-
I don't think they was a need to check Harry cause he never came to the HQ and when he did he never signed a thing. Hence Lucio.
Was having a talk with a friend about the Merlin. Other than the mist fiend and the ward tag team with the gatekeeper has the Merlin done any magic on screen/ on page
That was referring to child Harry - after Malcolm died and he went into the system until Justin found him. They might have been interested in a Starborn child of Margaret LeFay
-
That was referring to child Harry - after Malcolm died and he went into the system until Justin found him. They might have been interested in a Starborn child of Margaret LeFay
They might have been if they had known. I got the impression from what Harry had been told by Lash, what Margaret herself, had told Harry in his soul gaze with Thomas, and others that it was only after she fell in love with Malcolm that she decided to actually conceive one.
-
They might have been if they had known. I got the impression from what Harry had been told by Lash, what Margaret herself, had told Harry in his soul gaze with Thomas, and others that it was only after she fell in love with Malcolm that she decided to actually conceive one.
Eb knew Malcolm, if nothing else. Would not be shocked if Morgan knew something, and probably Luccio. There may be others - didn't the Gatekeeper say there was sort of a wilder group? I'd actually be surprised if Rashid did NOT know. Boy gets around
-
Eb knew Malcolm, if nothing else. Would not be shocked if Morgan knew something, and probably Luccio. There may be others - didn't the Gatekeeper say there was sort of a wilder group? I'd actually be surprised if Rashid did NOT know. Boy gets around
Oh I wouldn't be shocked if Rashid was in on it, as far as her decision goes anyway. I think the whole Winter Court was in on it. That is why Harry got a real Fae godmother in Lea. But as he told Harry in Cold Days I believe, what he tells the Council is mostly on a "need to know" basis, and most of the time in his opinion, they don't need to know.
-
Yes, but I bet a lot of the members have their own spies and intel gathering...
I doubt they would wait for Rashid to tell them
-
Yes, but I bet a lot of the members have their own spies and intel gathering...
I doubt they would wait for Rashid to tell them
But do they know just enough to be stupid?
-
But do they know just enough to be stupid?
Kinda doubt it. These seem to be the type where information is power - they get some, they want more. I'm surprised they didn't find her with Raith. Queen consort to the White court can't be too low profile.
-
Kinda doubt it. These seem to be the type where information is power - they get some, they want more. I'm surprised they didn't find her with Raith. Queen consort to the White court can't be too low profile.
Or they know a lot less than they think and that is a lot of the problem. That is the impression I got from what Rashid said when he and Harry had their little talks at the Gates.
-
Or they know a lot less than they think and that is a lot of the problem. That is the impression I got from what Rashid said when he and Harry had their little talks at the Gates.
The two are not mutually exclusive. They can be trying to learn, but not know how much there is TO learn. Like when early Murphy and Billy asked Harry questions and he tried "You don't want to know"
-
The two are not mutually exclusive. They can be trying to learn, but not know how much there is TO learn. Like when early Murphy and Billy asked Harry questions and he tried "You don't want to know"
Or is it, "you want to know, only what you want to know..."? Which distorts everything of course.
-
Kinda doubt it. These seem to be the type where information is power - they get some, they want more. I'm surprised they didn't find her with Raith. Queen consort to the White court can't be too low profile.
But there's quite a bit of protection there, with Papa Raith. Also, he hasn't yet suffered her Curse, so he's at the very peak of his power, a more dynamic leader with a firmer seat on his throne, than the White Court ruler we all know from the books.
The White Council is all too prone to taking a "wait and see what happens" approach, and I expect the Blackstaff would have been urging inaction (for his own private reasons)...
-
l
But there's quite a bit of protection there, with Papa Raith. Also, he hasn't yet suffered her Curse, so he's at the very peak of his power, a more dynamic leader with a firmer seat on his throne, than the White Court ruler we all know from the books.
The White Council is all too prone to taking a "wait and see what happens" approach, and I expect the Blackstaff would have been urging inaction (for his own private reasons)...
The problem with having power is knowing when to act and when not to. Act to soon and you can trigger bigger problems.
In the grand scheme of things how strong is the white council. I know everyone thought it was going to win against reds but how strong do you think it is. In the real world the US can beat any nation but it rarely uses its army. Same with all the major powers cause the other may use the small power to fight as a proxy
-
lThe problem with having power is knowing when to act and when not to. Act to soon and you can trigger bigger problems.
In the grand scheme of things how strong is the white council. I know everyone thought it was going to win against reds but how strong do you think it is. In the real world the US can beat any nation but it rarely uses its army. Same with all the major powers cause the other may use the small power to fight as a proxy
If you want the military analogy, it is not that you can beat anyone, it is that you cant beat EVERYONE. You can beat the toughest guy in the biker gang - but there are 15 in the bar, you get in a fight, you get your ass kicked.
-
... In the grand scheme of things how strong is the white council ...
Nobody really knows.
I presume they've done some pretty epic ass-kicking, in days of yore; they did something to earn their rep, and the immortals will have long memories, so it's not likely that exaggeration over time will have been a substantive part of that rep.
I think it remains to be seen how formidable they remain; the modern White Council may be a bit of a Paper Tiger. A few formidable members, like Eb & most of the Senior Council, many of the Wardens, a few others... But (particularly with the influx of very-young & inexperienced Wardens) the overall combat fitness of the WC is surely reduced in the post-VampWar era! Certainly there are many WC wizards who are little to no use in combat, nor even much use for logistics/support.
-
I think it remains to be seen how formidable they remain; the modern White Council may be a bit of a Paper Tiger. A few formidable members, like Eb & most of the Senior Council, many of the Wardens, a few others... But (particularly with the influx of very-young & inexperienced Wardens) the overall combat fitness of the WC is surely reduced in the post-VampWar era! Certainly there are many WC wizards who are little to no use in combat, nor even much use for logistics/support.
I think it is dangerous to assume that.
-
I think it remains to be seen how formidable they remain; the modern White Council may be a bit of a Paper Tiger. A few formidable members, like Eb & most of the Senior Council, many of the Wardens, a few others... But (particularly with the influx of very-young & inexperienced Wardens) the overall combat fitness of the WC is surely reduced in the post-VampWar era! Certainly there are many WC wizards who are little to no use in combat, nor even much use for logistics/support.
Their numbers are down after their wars. They are likely not as strong as they once were. But consider the survivors now are blooded veterans. The young wardens who survived the wars are now considerably more dangerous per man than before, and many of their opponents have also been weakened. The Blamps have never recovered from Dracula - sure, the survivors are the stronger deadlier ones... but so few. The Ramps are GONE. The Whites lost a number of high ranks in the Deeps, and they do not infect, they breed, and Lara is even less an open warfare type than most. The Fomor were hurt in the battle of Chicago - with few wizards involved, their big gun taken away. And trying to take out a noncombatant former KOTC might draw attention. Plus... the surface powers that be will now know more about them. Who isn;t damaged? Outsiders? The WC was not going to be such a deterrent to them already
-
Their numbers are down after their wars. They are likely not as strong as they once were. But consider the survivors now are blooded veterans. The young wardens who survived the wars are now considerably more dangerous per man than before, and many of their opponents have also been weakened. The Blamps have never recovered from Dracula - sure, the survivors are the stronger deadlier ones... but so few. The Ramps are GONE. The Whites lost a number of high ranks in the Deeps, and they do not infect, they breed, and Lara is even less an open warfare type than most. The Fomor were hurt in the battle of Chicago - with few wizards involved, their big gun taken away. And trying to take out a noncombatant former KOTC might draw attention. Plus... the surface powers that be will now know more about them. Who isn;t damaged? Outsiders? The WC was not going to be such a deterrent to them already
They might be fewer than they were, but I wouldn't want to screw with them.
-
Their numbers are down after their wars. They are likely not as strong as they once were. But consider the survivors now are blooded veterans. The young wardens who survived the wars are now considerably more dangerous per man than before, and many of their opponents have also been weakened. The Blamps have never recovered from Dracula - sure, the survivors are the stronger deadlier ones... but so few. The Ramps are GONE. The Whites lost a number of high ranks in the Deeps, and they do not infect, they breed, and Lara is even less an open warfare type than most. The Fomor were hurt in the battle of Chicago - with few wizards involved, their big gun taken away. And trying to take out a noncombatant former KOTC might draw attention. Plus... the surface powers that be will now know more about them. Who isn;t damaged? Outsiders? The WC was not going to be such a deterrent to them already
Arguably, MOST of the major players are all in the same state: reduced in numbers, but most having each-one-much-more-dangerous survivors.
But the White Council, in particular, may be "shakier" than most of the others.
#1 -
Until the Vamp-War, I don't think they had any substantive conflicts with most of the other major powers. There was the fight with Kemmler, but (from others' POV) that may have looked a lot like a mortal-wizard-vs-mortal-wizard fight. One of the recurring elements of the novels is that people keep referring to the White Council as "doddering old fools," perhaps a once-mighty tree but now weak & aged & ready to fall. I don't doubt that it's stronger than those outside POV's think... but I also think that when multiple predators are calling out a weakness, it's likely real. Nobody really knows just how dangerous the White Council is (or isn't), I think; not even the White Council itself !
#2 - Most of the dangerous monsters are... well, dangerous. The same is not nearly so true for wizards. Many of them have little to offer a war-effort. Combat powers aren't the most common suite of aptitudes, and even logistical-support wizards aren't dime-a-dozen. But those are mostly who the fights have been taking: the fighters, and the supply-lines. Leaving behind mostly noncombatant wizards, ill-suited to fight whampires and blampires and fomor and warlocks &c...
#3 - The WC is like the Whamps: "they don't infect, they breed." Furthermore, the little proto-wizards then need extensive training; without it, they're at least as much a danger to themselves and their allies, as they are to any foes (and the combat-wizards being teachers aren't on the front lines being soldiers). Compare a whampire: they can get basic combat training (hand-to-hand, blades, guns) in their pre-teen years (from mortals!), but when they do the 1st-kill-whampout, they *instantly* become vastly more-dangerous, with even ordinary whamps gaining speed and strength to beat most professional soldiers, plus their whamp-whammy powers.
-
They might be fewer than they were, but I wouldn't want to screw with them.
They are fewer in the same way an antelope herd that just got chased by lions is fewer - there had been 100, and averaged 30 mph. Now they are 75, but average speed is 33 mph. Fewer, but the average antelope is faster than the average before
-
They are fewer in the same way an antelope herd that just got chased by lions is fewer - there had been 100, and averaged 30 mph. Now they are 75, but average speed is 33 mph. Fewer, but the average antelope is faster than the average before
That's when you just look at the Wardens.
When you look at the White Council as a whole, it's weaker, because the combat types suffered the bulk of the casualties, leaving the more-delicate / less-survivable noncombatant (*) wizards largely unimpacted.
(*) Note that I include the logistics/support & healing wizards among the "combat types" as they increase the White Council's combat ability... and suffered for it, during the Ramp war! The White Council's ability to wage war is substantially degraded.
-
That's when you just look at the Wardens.
When you look at the White Council as a whole, it's weaker, because the combat types suffered the bulk of the casualties, leaving the more-delicate / less-survivable noncombatant (*) wizards largely unimpacted.
(*) Note that I include the logistics/support & healing wizards among the "combat types" as they increase the White Council's combat ability... and suffered for it, during the Ramp war! The White Council's ability to wage war is substantially degraded.
I'd be careful separating "combat and non-combat" wizards though. Just because they are healing wizards it doesn't mean they cannot do major ass kicking if they choose to. Best example of that is Listens to Wind, he is the chief healer of the White Council,yet he also managed to kick a Skin Walker's ass.
-
I'd be careful separating "combat and non-combat" wizards though. Just because they are healing wizards it doesn't mean they cannot do major ass kicking if they choose to. Best example of that is Listens to Wind, he is the chief healer of the White Council,yet he also managed to kick a Skin Walker's ass.
You have a point.
Harry is an unreliable narrator, and it's only his word as to the relative rarity of combat-capable wizards.
Most wizards may be much more dangerous than Harry gives them credit for!
As Harry himself said, his attitude is "fuck subtle!"
But those subtler magics may be almost as effective, overall... And there's a lot more of them.
-
You have a point.
Harry is an unreliable narrator, and it's only his word as to the relative rarity of combat-capable wizards.
Most wizards may be much more dangerous than Harry gives them credit for!
As Harry himself said, his attitude is "fuck subtle!"
But those subtler magics may be almost as effective, overall... And there's a lot more of them.
Being a non combat wizard doesn't mean you cant fight. Think of Ancient Mai she scares everyone but i dont see her as a fighter. She is the type to f u up in other ways. Its implied that that WC also fought the Reds using good old economies. Freezing assets and such. That probably limited the damage the Red court could do by a lot. The Ltw is a healer, Morty is a nerd but those 2 will mess u up. The Merlin isn't much of a fight, so is Mab and Odin( not saying they cant) just that to them fighting is for losers and a last resort. If all else fails then its time to to show you how closely related to grass ur ass is.
-
I was thinking about the Modern day geopolitical situation. And how its just a mess. Naturally i thought about the Dresden files and how it would complicate things
Was thinking about Martha Liberty. She lives in Liberia. She could a former freed slave. And shes 300 years old. Imagine the anger she has. Or she is a native who suffered from the results of the American slaves being brought to Africa. It was not a smooth transition, it got bloody really fast.
From that point LTW is a native American, Eb and the Merlin fought on opposite sides of a war. Imagine the number of people carrying grieves. Africans, asians Europeans its a wonder the WC hasn't torn itself apart.
What ever its faults the WC has held humanity together